No Nerf Promise Void?

[BlackVortex]

I remember Steve saying on a livestream they weren't going to nerf anything just make other stuff better to compensate.
Guess that promise went out of the window?

[Slurmageddon]

They never said they wouldnt nerf anything, they just said nerfing everything to one level wasnt a solution and making everything equally viable was the way to go.

That means some things get nerfed, some things get buffed, other things get changed completely. 

[BlackVortex]

They never said they wouldnt nerf anything, they just said nerfing everything to one level wasnt a solution and making everything equally viable was the way to go.

That means some things get nerfed, some things get buffed, other things get changed completely. 

so they broke their promise :)

[Blatantfool]

 Yeah. This kind of thing isn't what I want and it isn't what I think the game really needs. Shame.

 

 I don't care for them to keep changing the numbers on Fireball for the rest of time - the skill is lame. I'd rather they just do something different altogether.

 

 Why can'y I throw an actual Fireball? Maybe it could bounce around just a bit and then explode for a knockdown. At least that sounds interesting.

[Towermice]

so they broke their promise :)

No, they didn't, they said they wouldn't nerf everything to the ground like volt.

[Slurmageddon]

so they broke their promise :)

 

Uh... no ?

Some things got nerfed (Vauban) Some things got buffed (Mag) some things are different (Overheat)

 

So they are gradually doing exactly what they said they would do.

[Blatantfool]

No, they didn't, they said they wouldn't nerf everything to the ground like volt.

 

 They said that - but now even with a fully tricked out Vauban Bastille can't actually slow up a wave proper in high level defense anymore.

 

 "Golly gee! I've disabled a whole 15 or so of em! That's great! Now only the rest of the 50 or so can run right on through!"

 

 

 It just went from Vauban being mandatory in high wave Infested defense to Vauban and Frost being mandatory in high wave anything defense.

 

 

 Shame. This is actually the change I figured would finally 'fix' the skill. It would seem I was wrong. I'll have to play more before I can make another suggestion on what might work better. Maybe they should add an enemy attack speed debuff to Bastille. That'd be cool.

[.Monarch]

They actually did.

 

I believe it was Steve who said " Vauban, Nova will be the new standards. Things will be brought up to their levels, instead of nerfing. "

 

I'm sorry I couldn't find the post, I actually think it was in one of the live stream. I believe that was said back when Nova came out.

[BoompigXD]

It's simple.

 

DE remembered Maplestory

[Towermice]

They actually did.

 

I believe it was Steve who said " Vauban, Nova will be the new standards. Things will be brought up to their levels, instead of nerfing. "

 

I'm sorry I couldn't find the post, I actually think it was in one of the live stream. I believe that was said back when Nova came out.

So basically nerfing bastille to reasonable standards made vauban **** tier?

[Blatantfool]

So basically nerfing bastille to reasonable standards made vauban **** tier?

 

 No. Vauban isn't terrible all of a sudden. They just really hurt Bastille.

 

 Vortex is better now then ever though - no longer effects allies. Couldn't be better.

[b4dkarm4]

 They said that - but now even with a fully tricked out Vauban Bastille can't actually slow up a wave proper in high level defense anymore.

 

 "Golly gee! I've disabled a whole 15 or so of em! That's great! Now only the rest of the 50 or so can run right on through!"

 

 

 It just went from Vauban being mandatory in high wave Infested defense to Vauban and Frost being mandatory in high wave anything defense.

 

 

 Shame. This is actually the change I figured would finally 'fix' the skill. It would seem I was wrong. I'll have to play more before I can make another suggestion on what might work better. Maybe they should add an enemy attack speed debuff to Bastille. That'd be cool.

 

What they should have done, is make Bastille pick up normal mobs, but only slightly slow down (maybe %5 speed reduction?) the larger mobs such as ancients.

 

That way you have a good CC for "trash" but you really still need to prioritize and FF targets starting with the biggest threats to the team.

[.Monarch]

 No. Vauban isn't terrible all of a sudden. They just really hurt Bastille.

 

 Vortex is better now then ever though - no longer effects allies. Couldn't be better.

 

Vortex should have been that way from the get go. I wouldn't say that's a change or buff. More like a "FINALLY! BUG FIX!"

Bastille was one of its kind, it had its uses, and a very good one to begin with. It's a right direction at making it limitless, but the numbers of it needs heavy re-work. Almost everyone uses Bastille on Infested, and Infested is famous with their numbers. Honestly, max out and only hold 20 of them? What about the other 30 charging through?

 

IMO. We work our way to be better, stronger. We shouldn't be the one to get nerf, instead Grineers, Corpus, Infested should be the ones thinking smarter, work better, stronger.

[Blatantfool]

Vortex should have been that way from the get go. I wouldn't say that's a change or buff. More like a "FINALLY! BUG FIX!"

Bastille was one of its kind, it had its uses, and a very good one to begin with. It's a right direction at making it limitless, but the numbers of it needs heavy re-work. Almost everyone uses Bastille on Infested, and Infested is famous with their numbers. Honestly, max out and only hold 20 of them? What about the other 30 charging through?

 

IMO. We work our way to be better, stronger. We shouldn't be the one to get nerf, instead Grineers, Corpus, Infested should be the ones thinking smarter, work better, stronger.

 

 I agree. It isn't the players that are suffering from big balance issues - it is the fact that the Enemies we're fighting still don't have any means of dealing with the sort of stuff players have in their tool sets.

 

 Status effects, big stuns, knockdowns, nuke damage. There should be some enemies that are good at taking each of these kinds of abuse - or in some cases preventing that type of abuse. 

 

 

 

What they should have done, is make Bastille pick up normal mobs, but only slightly slow down (maybe %5 speed reduction?) the larger mobs such as ancients.

 

That way you have a good CC for "trash" but you really still need to prioritize and FF targets starting with the biggest threats to the team.

 

 I disagree. I think that if they're gonna do a hold limit at all the Bastille should prioritize stronger units. I'd rather have a charge run through untouched then an Ancient.

 

 So maybe if an Ancient runs in Bastille will drop a Charger in order to lift the Ancient.

 

 Or hell - maybe they should remove the limit again but add a damage cap on the lift effect. Make it so enemies will stay lifted until taking a specific amount of damage. Something like that might do well.

[SirEdwin]

Vortex should have been that way from the get go. I wouldn't say that's a change or buff. More like a "FINALLY! BUG FIX!"

Bastille was one of its kind, it had its uses, and a very good one to begin with. It's a right direction at making it limitless, but the numbers of it needs heavy re-work. Almost everyone uses Bastille on Infested, and Infested is famous with their numbers. Honestly, max out and only hold 20 of them? What about the other 30 charging through?

 

IMO. We work our way to be better, stronger. We shouldn't be the one to get nerf, instead Grineers, Corpus, Infested should be the ones thinking smarter, work better, stronger.

Well, it really depends a lot on how you use things. For example on xini defense runs, if you place the net in the right place it will bottle neck enemies on both the stairs and the ramp. Enemies can't just walk through each other, so if bastille locks up the first 3-4 in a narrow opening no more can move closer until they die anyway. Also, you can always throw down a second bastille, or hell even a third. Vauban already has a large power pool, add in flow and streamline and  with a group that can kill things with any sort of speed you will never have to worry.

 

Not to mention Vortex still has no count limit, on most infested missions as long as your group will stick near the reactor you can just toss vortex right on top of it and it work just as well as bastille. Also, vortex+torid make a very very sexy combination now that it doesn't suck you in to your own poison and kill you. It also brings a whole new level of usefulness to puncture mods. Suddenly .4 puncture is enough to kill 10 enemies because they are all condensed in on top of each other.

 

if you think tactical, bastille is still insanely powerful, especially in conjunction with vortex. personally I think it's a strong move in the right direction that they are moving toward slightly more tactical game play.

[.Monarch]

 I agree. It isn't the players that are suffering from big balance issues - it is the fact that the Enemies we're fighting still don't have any means of dealing with the sort of stuff players have in their tool sets.

 

 Status effects, big stuns, knockdowns, nuke damage. There should be some enemies that are good at taking each of these kinds of abuse - or in some cases preventing that type of abuse. 

 

 

While I like your suggestion on introducing new enemies type to be able to counter effects and abilities Players possess. I would find it illogical.

 

Seeing as how Tennos are the advance race "Proof: Grineers purchase Tenno Cryo-pods from Corpus to better understand Tenno technology." Enemy factions shouldn't have such extend of strength. Rather, they should increase in size.

 

Grineer  - Cloning technology, numbers shouldn't be a problem to begin with.

Corpus  - They control economy, building more MoAs isn't out of the question.

Infested - Don't need to explain, over 9000 zombie movies out there already proofed numbers will NEVER EVER be a problem.

 

Tennos are advance, super trained ninjas. We should be having the upper edge, we should feel over powered, and we should enjoy the carnage. To balance this, I'd just say strengthen in numbers for the enemy factions. Perhaps incorporate it with lore, Grineer and Corpus finally realize their technology is no match for the Tennos, and decide to finally have a joined task force. Having gained understanding, they start to apply how to tame and control infested, sending them in as first-wave assaults (Like guard dogs etc)

 

Each faction have their defense and weakness. IE. Grineer weak against Armor pierce. Corpus weak against Shock/Electric. Infested weak against Fire. With the Joined force, players will either need to focus on optimizing their gear for general purpose. Or promote tactical team play, to have different players actually bringing different types of weapons to serve different role.

[EetNotErn]

I'm liking the nerfs. Some things were just too good. Now maybe playing my Vauban won't be so boring when I put Bastille up.

[Blatantfool]

While I like your suggestion on introducing new enemies type to be able to counter effects and abilities Players possess. I would find it illogical.

Seeing as how Tennos are the advance race "Proof: Grineers purchase Tenno Cryo-pods from Corpus to better understand Tenno technology." Enemy factions shouldn't have such extend of strength. Rather, they should increase in size.

Grineer - Cloning technology, numbers shouldn't be a problem to begin with.

Corpus - They control economy, building more MoAs isn't out of the question.

Infested - Don't need to explain, over 9000 zombie movies out there already proofed numbers will NEVER EVER be a problem.

Tennos are advance, super trained ninjas. We should be having the upper edge, we should feel over powered, and we should enjoy the carnage. To balance this, I'd just say strengthen in numbers for the enemy factions. Perhaps incorporate it with lore, Grineer and Corpus finally realize their technology is no match for the Tennos, and decide to finally have a joined task force. Having gained understanding, they start to apply how to tame and control infested, sending them in as first-wave assaults (Like guard dogs etc)

Each faction have their defense and weakness. IE. Grineer weak against Armor pierce. Corpus weak against Shock/Electric. Infested weak against Fire. With the Joined force, players will either need to focus on optimizing their gear for general purpose. Or promote tactical team play, to have different players actually bringing different types of weapons to serve different role.

The barely existent lore should not come before a decent game - right now what the game needs are enemies that have enough variety that players don't run the risk of forgetting to stay awake while running missions over and over and over.

I'm not saying 'Throw in more enemies' or 'Make them stronger'

I'm saying 'Introduce enemies that have the ability to threaten the player if ignored." Medics that heal, Stun immune foes. Elite Enemies who get buffed for being hurt a specific way. Interesting nuances that fit the different factions.

Give players something that threatens them because it can defend itself from their specific flavor of beatdown. The gunfights need to be at least a little more engaging then shooting fish in a barrel. Lore be damned. Scaling be damned.

 

 

I'm liking the nerfs. Some things were just too good. Now maybe playing my Vauban won't be so boring when I put Bastille up.

Yeah! Sure wont be boring! It'll just be ineffective!

[SirEdwin]

The barely existent lore should not come before a decent game - right now what the game needs are enemies that have enough variety that players don't run the risk of forgetting to stay awake while running missions over and over and over.

I'm not saying 'Throw in more enemies' or 'Make them stronger'

I'm saying 'Introduce enemies that have the ability to threaten the player if ignored." Medics that heal, Stun immune foes. Elite Enemies who get buffed for being hurt a specific way. Interesting nuances that fit the different factions.

Give players something that threatens them because it can defend itself from their specific flavor of beatdown. The gunfights need to be at least a little more engaging then shooting fish in a barrel. Lore be damned. Scaling be damned.

 

 

Yeah! Sure wont be boring! It'll just be ineffective!

 

But it can still be incredibly effective, it's just not going to be a mindless I-win button, now it will take at least slightly more thought to use effectively.

[Blatantfool]

But it can still be incredibly effective, it's just not going to be a mindless I-win button, now it will take at least slightly more thought to use effectively.

 

 Yeah, it is fine to say that. But then you've got that one time that a Toxic strolls right through Bastille because he happened to be #16 in line just to dry hump the pod a few seconds and lose the whole thing for you, that'll be nice. You know, because he has roughly the same kinda damage resistance as http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Abrams-Tank.jpg'>one of these

 

 Ultimately my final judgement of how bad this nerf was will wait until after the changes to armor and damage calculation.

[Silvershadow66]

While I like your suggestion on introducing new enemies type to be able to counter effects and abilities Players possess. I would find it illogical.

 

Seeing as how Tennos are the advance race "Proof: Grineers purchase Tenno Cryo-pods from Corpus to better understand Tenno technology." Enemy factions shouldn't have such extend of strength. Rather, they should increase in size.

 

Can't happen because the game must remain playable on an average PC setup not just the best gaming rigs or DE will be shutting out a huge section of their potential market. More enemies raise the PU load on every machine and the CPU and memory load on the host.

[SirEdwin]

 

 Yeah, it is fine to say that. But then you've got that one time that a Toxic strolls right through Bastille because he happened to be #16 in line just to dry hump the pod a few seconds and lose the whole thing for you, that'll be nice. You know, because he has roughly the same kinda damage resistance as one of these

 

 Ultimately my final judgement of how bad this nerf was will wait until after the changes to armor and damage calculation.

 

 That'll sure be nice.

 

I don't mean this offensively, but that pretty much sounds like you are saying "i really don't want to have to pay any attention" and again you are dismissing vaubans other tools. Tesla stuns enemies at any level, is dirt cheap, and lasts a long time. Throw down a few right near the pod to stun anything that might get through bastille long enough for you to notice it and reposition if you need too. Toss a vortex a bit behind it to drag if off the pod, and it will likely take every other infested with it as they all have to get close to the pod to attack.

 

I really don't think this can be called a nerf, just a fix. No skill should have that kind of game breaking impact like it did. i mean an ability that leaves an entire enemy type without a single counter that can easily be kept up indefinitely. Hell, throw 2 people with an energy regen mod and 2 trinities in a group and you could probably still keep it the same exact way it was pre-patch with the ridiculous amount of energy you would constantly be bringing in you could just constantly keep 2-3+ bastilles up.

[Blatantfool]

I don't mean this offensively, but that pretty much sounds like you are saying "i really don't want to have to pay any attention" and again you are dismissing vaubans other tools. Tesla stuns enemies at any level, is dirt cheap, and lasts a long time. Throw down a few right near the pod to stun anything that might get through bastille long enough for you to notice it and reposition if you need too. Toss a vortex a bit behind it to drag if off the pod, and it will likely take every other infested with it as they all have to get close to the pod to attack.

 

I really don't think this can be called a nerf, just a fix. No skill should have that kind of game breaking impact like it did. i mean an ability that leaves an entire enemy type without a single counter that can easily be kept up indefinitely. Hell, throw 2 people with an energy regen mod and 2 trinities in a group and you could probably still keep it the same exact way it was pre-patch with the ridiculous amount of energy you would constantly be bringing in you could just constantly keep 2-3+ bastilles up.

 

 I think you're getting a bit ahead of me. 

 

 Nerf was necessary. I'm just not sure yet whether or not I'm of the opinion it was overnerfed.

 

 Like I said, it really depends on how things look after the armor changes. If enemies like ancients no longer take absolutely ludicrous damage to kill at high levels then this nerf was fine. Bring on the worst of it.

 

 But as it stands right now Vauban would be mostly ineffective unless his teammates where already killing enemies about as fast as they're entering Bastille. And that sort of thing doesn't last too long with the way Scaling works in modes like Defense.

 

 Also - it wasn't bugged, it was overpowered. This isn't a fix, it wasn't broken. It was a nerf. No use dancing around the idea.

[BoompigXD]

The barely existent lore should not come before a decent game - right now what the game needs are enemies that have enough variety that players don't run the risk of forgetting to stay awake while running missions over and over and over.

I'm not saying 'Throw in more enemies' or 'Make them stronger'

I'm saying 'Introduce enemies that have the ability to threaten the player if ignored." Medics that heal, Stun immune foes. Elite Enemies who get buffed for being hurt a specific way. Interesting nuances that fit the different factions.

Give players something that threatens them because it can defend itself from their specific flavor of beatdown. The gunfights need to be at least a little more engaging then shooting fish in a barrel. Lore be damned. Scaling be damned.

 

 

 

Made some concepts here

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102577-some-enemy-concepts/#entry1184806

[Silvershadow66]

 Nerf was necessary. I'm just not sure yet whether or not I'm of the opinion it was overnerfed.

 

Number 1 rule of Game development: Nerf hard and Buff lightly.

 

Every time the player side of a game is nerfed people whine, its better to nerf slightly more than you think is absolutely necessary to get the moaning out of the way, you can always give things a small buff later on (buffs make player happy after all).

 

If DE think that maxed Bastille should probably lift between 12-18 mobs then they don't want to start at 18 and then nerf it again.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Silvershadow66