Why Do So Many Of You Want To Balance This Game Around Exploitation Of Defense Missions?

[Zakalwe]

Okay, apologies in advance. ITT: there will be mention of Vauban changes and why powers like the current snow globe may not be good for the future development of Warframe
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Warframe is a fun little game. It is, at its heart, a gear based dungeon crawler with serious sam style enemy waves and a run and gun nature. 

 

There is a little depth to be found: movement such as backflips and rolls to add style to your killing, synergy of team powers and roles, tactical use of cover and good use of the (I'd imagine) often ignored shoulder switch button to get a good line of sight... however, none of this is truly essential, because at it core Warframe is incredibly simplistic, and for ALL of the content you just need the correct level of gear and a team who know the very fundamentals of shooting mechanics.

This game is a shooter. Gear balances enemy levels and, thus balances content. Powers add flavour to the proceedings, and let you clear content faster, but they are not essential. If you have good gear and can shoot well and understand basic shooter tactics, you can clear most of the content solo and all of it with a team WITHOUT A SINGLE POWER USED.

 

Yes, it would be slower, but it wouldn't be slow to the point that it feels like a slog in an objective way.

Powers, however, add spice and are fun to use.

 

Powers are difficult, because balancing content around them is difficult. Some powers are effective as some things much more than others, and, currently, there are some powers that make certain content an absolute cakewalk.

 

Bastille in its original form allowed you to float every single infested creature that walked into your powers range. With the correct mods you could increase the range and duration to the point that infested defense missions were broken. ANY player regardless of skill level could (with enough time invested in the right gear) reach high level Infested defense just by pressing a single button every now and then while your nuker teammates did their thing.

 

Snow globe. Snow globe makes defense missions almost impossible to lose. It robs any kind of challenge. All you need is a Frost competent enough to keep the globe over the pod, some well grinded gear, and three frames who can press 4 every now and then. Then, all you do is stand inside the globe and shoot into the oncoming hordes of mobs.

 

Now, there are other powers that make stuff too easy too. Nova's M.Prime, for example, used in conjunction with globe robs any challenge from defense missions.

 

Now, there's really not much to defense missions. They're the most basic of mods. You stand in a tactical spot, use powers that prevent you from being hurt, use powers that damage as much as possible, and do this over and over and over. This is not good, challenging content, this is not intelligent design. Defense missions should be a distraction from the REAL challenge, NOT the benchmark for balance.

What we need is content that has real challenge. Skill based modes. Not horde modes that anyone can win because certain powers make them impossible not to. Interesting challenges that require thought, and timing, and good use of tactics and team work.

We need to balance the powers around this skill based content, and to make it so a player's ability is what carries them further, not their power reserves.

If we had this kind of content powers like globe and the older Bastille could make the content too easy. Hell, right now globe lets you stand underneath the Raptor and ignore it while it dies from a lazy torrent of bullets.

 

Raptor sheds a tear because he used to force players to react with a smidgen of intelligence. "HEY GUYS, I AM GON FIRE MISSLES NOW, GO HIDE!", he would cry, and bleep in glee as the players ran into the bunker and stood watching his rain of insta death paint pretty explosive death clouds through the early evening sky. Poor Raptor used to make people think about positioning, and timing, and was potentially paving the way for more content that opened up those possibilities... but then snow globe came along and told him to shut up.

 

This is just a single example of how a single power can trivialise an aspect of the game that is heading in the right direction.

Powers like Bastille, and Globe, and M.Prime, and exploits with powers like switch teleport... as the game introduces actual skill based challenges, these things need to be changed and balanced to prevent them from negating the need to use actual skill. They were ok at first because the game was very basic, but as the game develops more ways to challenge real skill or adds interesting challenges, they will need to be balanced against these things and each other.

I know many people profess to enjoy high end defense, and claim any changes to globe or Bastille ruin their ability to enjoy the game. Unfortunately for these people, if DE are going to make a game that actually rewards player skill and contains actual non-artificial challenge and interesting challenges, then defense mode exploits are going to have to be toned down for the benefit of this new content. And certain powers are probably going to need to be changed.

 

If, however, DE are going to just make this game into a horde mode grind-fest, a game that simply requires high level gear and the correct combinations of powers to activate over and over, then these changes would be terrible. 

If all you want from Warframe is a mindless shooter that lets your turn off your brain and explode/float/negate the room at the touch of a button, then I these changes would be terrible too.

It depends one what your visions and hopes are for Warframe.

I for one hope the former is true, that DE are investing in and developing ideas and ways to make the content more interesting and to move away from horde mode exploitations and lack of any real challenge. I'm hoping there will be more to Warframe than just endless grind. I'm hoping that the changes they're making right now hint at something more.
 

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tl;dr: I like fish-finger sandwiches.

 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Zakalwe

[alchemistjkt]

tl;dr: I like fish-finger sandwiches.

me too.

[-Narauko-]

Defense is one game mode and I couldnt agree more. Players are complaining currently because they might have to work closer together to achieve high level waves on Xini. Oh the horror of teamwork and skill over pressing 3/4 mutliple times.

[Aure7]

aaand I bet devs will ignore this topic like many other important threads.

...Like this one https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64514-suggestions-for-alert-gameplay-and-upcoming-mission-overhauls-needs-devs-attention/
because it's all about letting design council create new sentinels and warframes.

 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Aure7

[RedPharaoh0817]

you my friend is a true gamer! and i salute you!
 

what you have jsut written is something all warframe players should really read about!

[RedPharaoh0817]

aaand I bet devs will ignore this topic like many other important threads.

i have faith in what DE is doing... and based on the changes they made on trinity and vauban, i believe they have seen this too...

[Volvadin]

Personally, I believe is would be highly unhealthy for warframe to have defense missions as its standard for balacing.

 

The higher level enemies in high end defense missions are not ment to be end game challenges, but because they offer the highest grade enemies at the moment people consider that to be end game enemy level. Skills need to be brought back to earth and some of them need to be limited to prevent abuse on higher end content.

 

The OP's raptor and frost's snow globe talk for example. If snow globe had a set amount of damage it took take before shattering it would mean that they couldn't rely entirely on it to defend the people inside from raptor's missiles. The same would apply for defense missions, in which you would have to use different and most likely more aggressive methods of defeating enemies before the pod would take serious damage.

 

*Edit* The changes to Vauban and Trinity were a example on how DE added in limitations on skills so people wouldn't be able to just use the same thing over and over and expect it to carry them indefinity. Link was broken in most cases, it just made you immune to damage while enemies killed themselves. Vauban's Bastlie had it coming.. it was broken as hell in any defense mission (especially when infected were involved). People may not like how their favorate frame gets a nerf hammer and cry's bloody murder, but it's for the greater good of the game in the end.

Edited September 7, 2013 by FatPokemon

[MageMeat]

I've said it many times already, so I do agree. +1, because Endless Defense is not a standard of usefulness and balance.

[Wolfstorm18]

The game have little space for snipers and aim-and-shoot, I see too much use of powers, like a anime-thing.

 

I think, the devs should invest more in the use of the guns, put more value to aiming and to sniping.

 

And why not, add a assassination mission where you use a sniper or stealth tactics? Currently the assassination mission is not assassination, is just boss fighting. Theres no place for stealth in the game, no place for snipers, for silent kills. When I killed silently it was playing solo, a long time ago, with Ash.

 

As for snow globe, I think it should'nt be removed from the game. What the devs can do is to reduce its capability to deflect bullets, or even remove it. It still will slow down those enemies inside it, being more useful against infested mobs.

[Althix]

hmmm... you see i gave you +1. but i think i should remind you that some time ago ED was actually a challenge.

 

You required some skill to play it high enough, because even if you had nyx in your team and this frame could alter the balance to some point you still was in need of skilled tank for example trinity or rhino, you need some team play basics in order to get to lets say not very high but let say wave 50.

 

So people start to judge frames (and i am one of these people) only by how it will behave on high level waves, for example i judge Trinity changes from that perspective because i don't give a ffff about boss runs and other crap because you can solo it with loki.

 

So ED was artificial difficulty for this game and some players were calling it high end content even.

 

However as game rolls on ED as a mode by which you can judge difficulty and perfomance of certain frames lost it's value. Because we have aura system with stackable effects, we have dual mods that augments frames and weapons to ridiculous level of opness, hell even ability to forma weapons and frames delivered a blow to challenge in this game. So ED as it now is very overrated. Because there are two reasons why team won't go it to wave 100. a) Lack of equipment. b) laziness.(that's me, because now ED is boring like i don't know what).

 

Those changes not only affected ED but they also affected entire game, basically made it from coop to single player game.

 

So ED as measure of good game and teamplay is no longer valid and i hope DE understand this. Because spamm of snowglobe and bastille for eternity is hardly a demonstration of skill.

 

If DE is moving away from concept one button frames i say they are moving in right direction. If not... well this game will die, because grind is rather tiresome and lack of challenge will force high level players to leave this product for something better.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Althix

[Althix]

 it's all about letting design council create new sentinels and warframes.

trust me design council is very overrated. basically only advantage to be in it is to know something new 5 minutes before the rest of the community. And plat with discount.

 

as for voting and other crap. Let say DE is throwing a bone to a council to vote on this and this. Let say i didn't voted for 2 of three last polls. Because one poll just was pointless and the very fact that we have incoming armor system redo is showing that i was right. And second poll because i refuse to choose lesser evil, because i want to choose good or not choose at all. However majority of design council do not see it in this perspective and if DE said vote - they will. Very few DC members are refusing to vote at all for one reason or another.

 

So when Warmachine asked DE will DC ruin future content for the game, the answer was very obvious - yes it will.

Not because DC actually have any power over DE, simply because DC members can not boycott the vote, this idea have no place in their minds and even if they have illusion of power to force DE redo one thing or another they are not using it.

 

But you still can blame DC for Nova frame, because well... this frame is stupid.

 

p.s. for example any of last polls do not have option "against all". so you get the idea right?

Edited September 7, 2013 by Althix

[stivoknis]

I agree with everything you have written, and now I also feel guilty for having used snow globe on Raptor so many times.  Admittedly, I fought him legitly my first time, but when you need to grind the same boss 20 times for bps, you tend to be lazy and cheap.  Changes to these powerful abilities will reduce the effectiveness of some frames, but I do believe they are necessary for the greater good.  I just hope if snow globe is nerfed, then Frost's other abilites are looked at in greater detail because currently snow globe is the only reason for anyone to get a Frost.  However, if snow globe got tweeked, it could allow for much more in-depth gameplay.

 

On a side note, I really like the new changes to Trinity.  She can now serve her support role in a greater way with the buffs to Well of Life and Energy Vampire (not to mention the neat synergism between those two powers).  The change to Link was a little disappointing, but the damage reduction is great enough to save her when she gets ambused.  Also, the increase to Link's range means that Link will almost always be effective.  No more running away while linked only to realise there are no enemies close enough around to have Link transfer any damage and then dying.

 

Keep up the great work DE!  Everyone hates change, but as long as you changes are well thought-out and appropriate, we can cope.

[Zakalwe]

I agree with everything you have written, and now I also feel guilty for having used snow globe on Raptor so many times.  Admittedly, I fought him legitly my first time, but when you need to grind the same boss 20 times for bps, you tend to be lazy and cheap.  

 

It's the fault of the game that the only progression is via Grind and repetitive content that offers no real challenge once you reach a certain power point.

 

It's not our fault for wanting to negate that grind so we can get new equipment faster to make the content we have playable again without it being a cakewalk.

Hopefully, De is paying attention to this, and the recetn changes are signs that good things are coming.

[weirdee]

You are aware that the other tactic for fighting Raptor is using Loki to clip it into the bunker, right? not even a matter of snowglobe there...

 

the "legit" way to fight it is with a sniper rifle (which either sucks, or ownership of one that doesn't suck mean you're already too high level to want what raptor drops), or with a gun that's way too inaccurate/has too much damage dropoff to actually hit him at a distance where you can tell that you're making contact, and at the same time avoid getting oneshotted by a missile that may or may not have lagged into you between the three frames you get for finding out when it's fired a missile (do people actually see any warnings for that? loki's power drags it to point blank range, and i haven't seen any warning for that besides it just happening)

Edited September 7, 2013 by weirdee

[Zakalwe]

You are aware that the other tactic for fighting Raptor is using Loki to clip it into the bunker, right? not even a matter of snowglobe there...

 

Yep, I mentioned Loki switch teleport exploit in my post. Didn't have the desire to list every single example. ;)

If this game were not based around grinding stuff as the only form of progression, if there were some way to gain reward by completing skill based challenges or intelligent use of tactics, then I think almost everyone would agree the game would be better.

If they made thee changes, they'd need to remove all the exploits and bring some powers down to a lower level (while buffing others).

Then instead of clearing content at lightning speed, we could possibly begin enjoying the actual process of playing.

If that happened, we'd have a better game.

[theasl]

tl;dr: I like fish-finger sandwiches.

nom nom

[neKroMancer]

I believe adding ED was one gigantic mistake. It brought nothing but misconception and time/reward imbalance to Warframe. Now, everyone and their dogs just use "Cos high defense" as an excuse not to balance anything that apparently broken.

Bah, give me back old non-endless defense.

Snowglobe is similar to old Bastile, way too powerful utility that manage to break certain aspect of the game.

[Zakalwe]

I believe adding ED was one gigantic mistake. It brought nothing but misconception and time/reward imbalance to Warframe. Now, everyone and their dogs just use "Cos high defense" as an excuse not to balance anything that apparently broken.

Bah, give me back old non-endless defense.

Snowglobe is similar to old Bastile, way too powerful utility that manage to break certain aspect of the game.

The problem is also a matter of perception.

 

Endless defense is not endless at all. There will be a point that is impossible to push past because no combination of powers or weapons can be levelled any higher to deal with the threat.

 

It doesn't matter where the goalpost is either, because rewards are RNG and the grind is the same for every wave.

Its artificial difficulty and challenge, and players shouldn't look to it as the end game but all we have right now in lieu of end game. It's a distraction while DE work on new content, nothing more.