Pvparanoia Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love 2V2

[Destro6677]

Between the flames, some people seem to be ignoring that Warframe started out as a pve.

 

IF the majority of the community demands pvp in future, and the devs do turn to pvp as their main goal with pve as a side project, it will become another semi-generic pvp game - just with ninjas in space.

 

There will be multiple balancing problems with how the game is currently set up for pve.

 

If the game mains pvp, pve players will leave the game.

 

And as such, when the next big pvp game comes out, Warframe will die a slow lingering death.

 

Face it, League of Legends time as the top dog is limited. Once the cool kids leave for better f2p pvp games, the trolling, raging, flaming community will have nothing to do but turn upon itself and rip it's own throat out.

 

I for one, will leave warframe if the devs ever confirm pvp becoming the main focus. There are many more fun and balanced games out there for pvp. I can name some right now. War thunder. Smite. MwO. Planetside 2. And dare I say, LoL and DOTA.

[whitejackale]

But that's not what you said. You said that balancing is easy. It's not easy. Everything is connected in how it interacts with everything else. If you change, let's just say Contagion, so that it inflicts an AoE hit of poison from the first person you hit and sends out a wave of poison every time you swing the sword, then you are also changing up how players will use that power, and what weapons they would bring along, which in turn affects certain power combos of weapons. For example, someone always brings Acrid along because they need the poison damage to hit multiple targets at once at range. If Contagion could do that, you wouldn't bring along Acrid anymore, because now your 3 does that. You just nerfed Acrid ecause it's role has been replaced by an infinite, albeit it needs to be recharged, resource.

 

Balancing is by no means easy.

I apologize for saying that balancing a game is easy. I was speaking from my point of view since my focus when getting a higher education has been mathematics, physics, economics, reasoning, and various other fields which have made available many of the tools necessary to carry out a job such as balancing the combat system in a video game.

 

Alas, while we might disagree on how difficult the combat balancing in a video game might be, I hope that we can at least agree on the fact that content creation takes a lot more man hours than the balancing of a combat system.

[CaptainohCaptain]

Alas, while we might disagree on how difficult the combat balancing in a video game might be, I hope that we can at least agree on the fact that content creation takes a lot more man hours than the balancing of a combat system.

It's not. Dota took 3 years to get it's look and can't be balanced proper even now, being out of warcraft wing and having no technical limits.

[Loswaith]

...

Things not to worry about:

 

-The main argument being repeated by the anti-PvP mafia is that it will split DE's focus which will lead to PvE content being released slower. This is irrational and here's why: PvP is not going to require significant content updates. No PvP-only content will ever HAVE to be made. They probably will make a few arenas, but in the future all they have to do is repurpose a tile from a PvE tileset. Most defense maps would make good 2v2 arenas.

 

-Balances to PvP will not have to effect PvE. 

...

Unfortunatly these two aspects are mutually exclusive.  You cant have balanced PvP not impact PvE without content that is exclusive to PvP, so resources need to be spent working on the PvP resources that wont be used for PvE, thusly resulting in a reduction in resources being spent on PvE.

If you balance PvP without exclsive PvP aspects, PvE is impacted because what is balanced for large groups of AI wont be balanced for PvP.  The design is that the PvE can take on many opponents not singular ones.

 

 

...

Half the player base of Warframe enjoy PVP, half don't. Just let DE do what they have planned. Why do you need DE to hurry up so much anyway? Warframe isn't going anywhere, WAIT AND ENJOY IT. Don't scream at them to spend all their time updating warframe, that would just be a tiring clutter. Give the devs a break.

Half the player base may enjoy PvP, it doesnt mean half the player base wants PvP in warframe.  Infact they even mentioned (in livestream 13) that one person asked about PvP at the last gaming expo.  One out of what is likely 1000s that asked questions about the game.  That seems to indicate that PvP is a concern for a vast minority.

 

 

The thing about PvP is that once you create it, you do not have to constantly create new content for it. It is possible for PvPers to continue to have fun while playing 3-5 maps that have various different game modes.

This is vague at best, given just about every game with PvP adds content for PvP in its lifecycle.  I honestly cant see that this would logically happen if its simply seen as not being needed.  TF2 is a huge example of this, it simply wouldnt exist if TF or TFC didnt need new content (because everyone would be happily playing those games), and it has even been constantly adding to itself for years (to the point its quite a bit different to what it was at release).

 

 

At the end of the day however there are 1000s of PvP games to choose from, while only maybe 100 co-op shooters (though 100 is likely being quite generous).  This means those that want PvP have a huge ammount of other options, while those that want co-op PvP have few options.

Why insist that a game you started playing that was obviously PvE (prehaps even because it was PvE) become PvP, when it needs allot more work to make it a better PvE game first.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Loswaith

[theammostore]

I apologize for saying that balancing a game is easy. I was speaking from my point of view since my focus when getting a higher education has been mathematics, physics, economics, reasoning, and various other fields which have made available many of the tools necessary to carry out a job such as balancing the combat system in a video game.

 

Alas, while we might disagree on how difficult the combat balancing in a video game might be, I hope that we can at least agree on the fact that content creation takes a lot more man hours than the balancing of a combat system.

As was I. I guess we've just had different experiences with games then.

 

And we can agree on that. Making things takes longer than balancing them.

[Loswaith]

I apologize for saying that balancing a game is easy. I was speaking from my point of view since my focus when getting a higher education has been mathematics, physics, economics, reasoning, and various other fields which have made available many of the tools necessary to carry out a job such as balancing the combat system in a video game.

 

Alas, while we might disagree on how difficult the combat balancing in a video game might be, I hope that we can at least agree on the fact that content creation takes a lot more man hours than the balancing of a combat system.

Game balancing is more like taking 1000 different numerical values, each of those when you change one of them has influence (with a variety of different levels of influence, even changing influence affects) on every other number and now you need to balance groups of 10 number sets with the 100 other groups without making any of the sets identical to any of the others, though with still making each set of equivlent value.

Thats essentially game balancing at a very superficial level.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Loswaith

[whitejackale]

Unfortunatly these two aspects are mutually exclusive.  You cant have balanced PvP not impact PvE without content that is exclusive to PvP, so resources need to be spent working on the PvP resources that wont be used for PvE, thusly resulting in a reduction in resources being spent on PvE.

If you balance PvP without exclsive PvP aspects, PvE is impacted because what is balanced for large groups of AI wont be balanced for PvP.  The design is that the PvE can take on many opponents not singular ones.

 

 

Half the player base may enjoy PvP, it doesnt mean half the player base wants PvP in warframe.  Infact they even mentioned (in livestream 13) that one person asked about PvP at the last gaming expo.  One out of what is likely 1000s that asked questions about the game.  That seems to indicate that PvP is a concern for a vast minority.

 

 

This is vague at best, given just about every game with PvP adds content for PvP in its lifecycle.  I honestly cant see that this would logically happen if its simply seen as not being needed.  TF2 is a huge example of this, it simply wouldnt exist if TF or TFC didnt need new content (because everyone would be happily playing those games), and it has even been constantly adding to itself for years (to the point its quite a bit different to what it was at release).

 

 

At the end of the day however there are 1000s of PvP games to choose from, while only maybe 100 co-op shooters (though 100 is likely being quite generous).  This means those that want PvP have a huge ammount of other options, while those that want co-op PvP have few options.

Why insist that a game you started playing that was obviously PvE (prehaps even because it was PvE) become PvP, when it needs allot more work to make it a better PvE game first.

You make many valid points regarding the availability of pvp versus the availability of pve focused shooters. But the thing is that we are past the point of trying to keep pvp from being added to warframe since the developers have been using some of their resources to create pvp content. I believe that we are past the point of trying to keep pvp from becoming a part of warframe, and so the community as a whole should try to give their feedback on how to make both the pve and pvp aspects of the game as enjoyable as possible for all of the players that wish to take part in either.

[CaptainohCaptain]

You make many valid points regarding the availability of pvp versus the availability of pve focused shooters. But the thing is that we are past the point of trying to keep pvp from being added to warframe since the developers have been using some of their resources to create pvp content. I believe that we are past the point of trying to keep pvp from becoming a part of warframe, and so the community as a whole should try to give their feedback on how to make both the pve and pvp aspects of the game as enjoyable as possible for all of the players that wish to take part in either.

We are not past this point, we can stop improving pvp and it will die due to lack of balance.

[Jhakoon]

And we can agree on that. Making things takes longer than balancing them.

lol wut?

creating some areas or models takes no time, compared to balancing. maybe creating a new warframe and its skills might take longer, but then it is the balancing that you will be sitting at.

take dark age of camelot. it had an awesome pvp, but pve was a joke with a simple setup. have a look at world of warcraft or lord of the rings online. basically they are pve games, and their pvp sucks badly.

but all have one thing in common: pvp balancing is a neverending story.

whenever they change a mechanism just slightly, you can't foresee every possible exploit this will offer, but eventually players will find them. mobs don't.

so the devs keep on altering and modifying for decades, hell it takes less time to create a whole new game!

DE should keep concentrating on pve stuff. this is what warframe is made for and it is on a good way.

[whitejackale]

lol wut?

creating some areas or models takes no time, compared to balancing. maybe creating a new warframe and its skills might take longer, but then it is the balancing that you will be sitting at.

take dark age of camelot. it had an awesome pvp, but pve was a joke with a simple setup. have a look at world of warcraft or lord of the rings online. basically they are pve games, and their pvp sucks badly.

but all have one thing in common: pvp balancing is a neverending story.

whenever they change a mechanism just slightly, you can't foresee every possible exploit this will offer, but eventually players will find them. mobs don't.

so the devs keep on altering and modifying for decades, hell it takes less time to create a whole new game!

 

1) Creating the various textures, models, sounds, and various other things that are part of the game take many more work hours than balancing a game.

 

2) When developers balance their games incorrectly, it is a result of them being inept, not caring enough about that content, or of them doing it on purpose for some other reason. Balancing is not difficult. It can be done with basic math that people learn in high school.

 

3) PvP balancing is a "never ending story" because the developers are not performing their jobs properly, or because they do it on purpose to achieve some goal that they are not letting their players know about.

 

You should go look up some information on how many resources are required to add new content to a game, and on how many resources are required to balance a game.(Hint: it only takes one person that is good at math to balance a video game's combat system)

Edited September 10, 2013 by whitejackale

[whitejackale]

We are not past this point, we can stop improving pvp and it will die due to lack of balance.

The most important in pvp in any game probably has to do with invulnerabilities and endless crowd control. High damage output is not that big of a deal since everyone has access to the same weapons and warframes, but if they allow people to cc lock people down for entire battles, everyone will ragequit pvp because it will not be an enjoyable experience.

 

The same thing happens in pve. If people are crowd controled for large portions of battles, or if enemies are immune to damage for long periods of time, everyone gets frustrated and hates the content.

[EganMC]

PVP is inevitable. Production can no longer be ceased, Just urge them on this time, instead of call them jackasses. Am I the only person around here that appreciates PVP? It's fun to do with friends between missions, serves as a nice break from farming.

[Jhakoon]

1) Creating the various textures, models, sounds, and various other things that are part of the game take many more work hours than balancing a game.

 

2) When developers balance their games incorrectly, it is a result of them being inept, not caring enough about that content, or of them doing it on purpose for some other reason. Balancing is not difficult. It can be done with basic math that people learn in high school.

 

3) PvP balancing is a "never ending story" because the developers are not performing their jobs properly, or because they do it on purpose to achieve some goal that they are not letting their players know about.

 

You should go look up some information on how many resources are required to add new content to a game, and on how many resources are required to balance a game.(Hint: it only takes one person that is good at math to balance a video game's combat system)

well, perhaps you should ask DE for a job.

hopefully prevents them from releasing things like the acrid.

or armor 1.0

or nyx's absorb could actually work.

or...

honestly i don't believe things are that easy.

[Fearzffs]

In development using an actual engine you have a lot of Objects that are linked together in some way. Now bug fixing takes a lot of time. But changing the numbers takes only changing an actual parameter. So a developer is used to develop stuff like new mechanics not warframes for that you use an actual designer and a developer to add the textures and the arange its physics if that warframe introduces a new mechanic then you will need a developer to come in and add it. But when balancing stuff or adjusting it the time that is needed is seconds if you know what numbers you want in there.

[CaptainohCaptain]

In development using an actual engine you have a lot of Objects that are linked together in some way. Now bug fixing takes a lot of time. But changing the numbers takes only changing an actual parameter. So a developer is used to develop stuff like new mechanics not warframes for that you use an actual designer and a developer to add the textures and the arange its physics if that warframe introduces a new mechanic then you will need a developer to come in and add it. But when balancing stuff or adjusting it the time that is needed is seconds if you know what numbers you want in there.

Changing takes seconds. Balancing takes YEARS.

[whitejackale]

Changing takes seconds. Balancing takes YEARS.

I have a question for you. If balancing takes years to achieve, how come there are games out there that are balanced right on release date? Wouldn't it be interesting if developers created imbalanced combat on purpose in order to increase their profits?

[garrm]

lol what game are you talking about ? chess?

[Tsukinoki]

@whitejackale

Even if a game is 'balanced' at release you do have to remember that it probably took at least a single year, if not more, during its development Just to balance it.

And if its an MMO good luck staying balanced once people find out that something stacks in a way you haven't forseen (and no matter how good you are you can't predict everything players will try. Its just not possible). And once they find that you can throw your balance out the window as you scramble around trying to find a way to balance that while your players demand more content, that you then have to balance against the old stuff and itself....

Balancing is a never ending job in games. To think otherwise is pure folly.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Fearzffs]

I have a question for you. If balancing takes years to achieve, how come there are games out there that are balanced right on release date? Wouldn't it be interesting if developers created imbalanced combat on purpose in order to increase their profits?

I just want you to note something. Dota 2 was not balanced on release and it is still not balanced even players who are competing for a million state that there are a lot of stupid heroes and it is a game of age if we include dota 1 lets say 12 years or maybe more.

[Mezyo]

I really only started playing warframe because it will make for an outstanding pvp experience if they balance it well.

It would be great if DE's could say if they plan to balance both or allow for seperate tuning in pve and pvp. Or has that been covered?

 

Then in comes the gear aqusition problem of "I have to PVE for PVP gear? WTF!"

Maybe look at something like the GW2 model.

 

Its a PVE game, and they seem to be dedicated to PVE content so I doubt they'll let anything get in the way of that.

[Jhakoon]

counterstrike is balanced. xD

every weapon is useful. that's perfection.

but after all it is pure pvp and doesn't need to deal with pve stuff additionally.

mixing pve and pve is sth devs have sleepless nights and get grey hair about.

[Venarge]

I really only started playing warframe because it will make for an outstanding pvp experience if they balance it well.

It would be great if DE's could say if they plan to balance both or allow for seperate tuning in pve and pvp. Or has that been covered?

 

Then in comes the gear aqusition problem of "I have to PVE for PVP gear? WTF!"

Maybe look at something like the GW2 model.

 

Its a PVE game, and they seem to be dedicated to PVE content so I doubt they'll let anything get in the way of that.

It has already been said that they wont balance the game around pvp.....

[Morte_de_Angelis]

 Players, at least anyone wanting to have fun, will switch to PvP. New game modes and balancing need to appear.

 

Ummm BullS#&$ much?

In every PvP game that has any sort of single player (Cause that mean they've developed AI) I always ask for a horde mode of sorts.

EVERY SINGLE ONE.

I find killing mindless zombies much more entertaining then PvP. Most of the time.  Eventually I'll get bored yh.  After I've played PvP enough to realise that its just BS.

 

The most fun I've had with this game? Survival. Pure and Simple

PvP I've raged at so many times that I refuse to play it again.  Its not fun.  Its rage inducing.  At least for me.  So don't go and make stupid blanket statements such as "You can only have fun in PvP".  Cause PvP is only fun when its BALANCED.  Its not balanced.  I honestly I hope it doesn't cause it means that they put too much and effort into PvP.

 

So take you and your "ADD PVP CAUSE EVERYONE FINDS IT MORE FUN" attitude somewhere else.  Be happy they've added PvP when they orginally said they wouldn't.

[Morte_de_Angelis]

I have a question for you. If balancing takes years to achieve, how come there are games out there that are balanced right on release date? Wouldn't it be interesting if developers created imbalanced combat on purpose in order to increase their profits?

 

Name me a game thats balanced on release and stayed that way?

[Tsukinoki]

@Morte_de_Angelis

I want him to name a game that was 'balanced' at release that players didn't find a combo that was more powerful than anything else (and therefor unbalanced), simply because the devs didn't think of what would happen if you combined these two weapons/effects/stat-builds/whatever.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Tsukinoki