Search The Dead

[noneuklid]

This is a PSA about the most controversial Lazarus Necro frame ability.  I understand that the official discussion is happening in the pinned post at the top of this forum, but I can't reply to everyone (and the replies I have made get swallowed pretty quickly in the "get rid of Search the Dead" furor).  Forgive this small infraction to get an important message out.

 

Search the Dead would be called "sustain" in a MOBA.  It generates health, energy, and ammo from corpses.  You want to heal your party?  It does that.  You want more energy for your abilities?  You've got it.  You're sick of carrying around that Sniper Scavenger (or Mutation, you lucky dog) aura?  Get rid of it.

 

It's crazy good.  And you can't just replace it with an "extra loot" passive mod, because part of what makes it crazy good is that it's on-demand.  Activating this ability generates health and energy orbs spontaneously from the most plentiful resource in all of Warframe (next to nano spores): dead enemies.  It doesn't make health appear when you don't need it, in other words; you make it appear when you do.

 

Now I don't know that it's going to have the "ideal" drop rate, giving us all back exactly the health, energy, and ammo we need when we need them.  But I think that approaching the most balanced rate is a normal problem in balancing a live ability.  So please, give Search the Dead a chance before demanding zomg moar xplozion.  There are a lot of ways you can damage enemies in this game.  There aren't that many ways you can sustain your entire team.  Let's try this one out.

 

tl;dr : Search the Dead makes you (and your team) Mum-Ra The Ever-Living.  And Shooting.

 

Edited September 9, 2013 by noneuklid

[-Kittens-]

And why would you assume people don't understand that?

 

Nothing is compelling them to like it anyway, and as a logistical power it's immediately subject to farming concerns, justified or not.

[noneuklid]

And why would you assume people don't understand that?

 

Because I've read fourty-odd pages of it.  From a few random pages I clicked through:

 

Search the dead sounds redundant with the new sentinel and kind of dull for a third ability. Perhaps if it also restored health/energy?

 

Search The Dead: I'm quite surprised that this was considered a serious idea. An ability that pulls in resources from enemies on a Necromancer themed Warframe? It's ridiculous... the Life drain ability sounded infinitely more promising than this. I can imagine it would drain health from nearby enemies and restore your own.

 

 also "Search The Dead" seems pointless and sounds like a mod card effect. I suggest using "Life Drain" as hinted by Rebecca in its stead.

 

SEARCH THE DEAD:

 

This is a big NO NO. Change this completely, think about something totally different... some sort of party effect buff 

 

Search the Dead:

This is the single worst idea for an ability that I've ever seen.  Not only does it have no use in battle, but it will either provide so much extra loot that it'll be mandatory for farming, or it will produce so little that no one will ever use it.  I don't want a farming class, DE, I want something which has interesting and unique battle tactics. 

 

I think search the dead should be changed to something that would leach life. 

 

There are quite a few people that do get it, as well.  But the overwhelming voice is incomprehension.

[-Kittens-]

And again, half the posts you cited DO understand, they simply don't like it.

 

They don't have to have a reason.

 

If you look at steam metrics, WF has lost about a third of its total steam-based pop in a monthish and change. You'll notice those people not having left over many forum notes as to why, and there is nothing compelling them to do so.

 

Opinions do not require either facts nor reams of data, contrary to polite culture.

[noneuklid]

Opinions do not require either facts nor... data.

 

Perhaps. I find my own are much improved by the inclusion, though.

[Hayden11121]

Apparently to the OP you can only understand something if you agree with it.

 

Everyone has a functional mind and understands the skills ability, they just dislike it.

 

Threads made off of other threads just need a lockdown, or in this case, a merge.

[noneuklid]

Apparently to the OP you can only understand something if you agree with it.

Everyone has a functional mind and understands the skills ability, they just dislike it.

Here's an example of someone who understands the ability, but doesn't like it:

 

 

"SEARCH THE DEAD: Generates loot from corpses (health, energy, ammo, etc)."

I think I can find those orbs and ammos easily in those breakable containers. Never has a shortage before. With scavenger aura and ammo mutation mods, ammo will never be a problem again.

Here's someone who I have no idea if they understand or not, since they don't provide any real feedback (the bulk of complaints):

 

 

One thing for sure, Search the Dead is a terribly 3, and a terrible skill overall. Would be good to change it.

Here's someone who doesn't quite understand:

 

 

3. Search the Dead - I'm sorry but even as a solo-minded player I don't quite see what makes this ability all that great, especially as a 3rd slot. Admittedly I'm a bit confused on what it's really supposed to do, aside from spawning extra drops, but I heard it might work as a source of health through "feasting" (re-using) on dead tissue. ...If the health gain or a damage-factor [isn't] present, I don't think this should be a power for Necro. /:

The last two types of folks are the ones I've been trying to reply to in the official thread, and the folks this thread is targeted at. I also strongly suspect that that the "life leech" crowd is evenly split between those who prefer a vampiric theme and those who don't get that Search is also a sustain ability.

And while I like Search, there's nothing wrong with preferring a different theme or believing you'll never need sustain. That's not who I'm addressing, and it's a great discussion to be having in the official thread (along with the also-common complaint that corpses simply don't last long enough for this ability to be properly useful).

Edited September 9, 2013 by noneuklid

[Arkfall]

Understanding aside, This is not a MOBA.

 

Being able to "Press Button, Receive Loot" is NOT a good skill and is not going to help the game any.

 

Frankly, if it was just Health, Energy and Ammo, I don't think there would be as much of a problem, but allowing Resources and Mods to drop is a bit much.

[OOLuigiOo]

You have no clue how it works. No one does. You all dreamed up this place call la la land where you get buried treasure by pressing 3 when you have no clue how it even works and there's even a resource shop for plat. You don't know the limits. No one does.

 

What if it turns out to suck?

 

And life drain makes you Mumra too.

Edited September 9, 2013 by OOLuigiOo

[noneuklid]

Frankly, if it was just Health, Energy and Ammo, I don't think there would be as much of a problem, but allowing Resources and Mods to drop is a bit much.

 

I'm going by text as-written.  I don't know what 'etc' means, but currently, Search the Dead causes health, energy, and ammo to drop.  No reason to believe otherwise.

 

You have no clue how it works. No one does. 

 

I do have at least one clue -- the post DEMegan made.  But further clarification sounds like a great idea!  Let's try to get that.

Edited September 9, 2013 by noneuklid

[TunaMayo]

If search the dead reveals mats or mods, we will be swarmed by necro frames. In a farming game if a certain frame makes farming easier, everyone will use it. No thanks.

If search the dead gives ammo/health/energy, when am I seriously ever going to need this? I can count the number of times I have run out of ammo on one hand, and energy drops are plentiful and health should never really be much of an issue other than against toxics. I can see the viability of this power in high level defence or survival where drops are less, but even then a trinity does a better job of supplying health and energy. Therefore the powers usefulness is reduced to giving ammo, when we have mods and gear for that.

To put it simply, the power has the potential to be another useless power (see bounce/fireball/psychic bolts).

The power doesn't exactly suit the nature of the frame either. We have a debuff, a fear crowd control, and a minion power. I fail to see how "making more energy/health/ammo" falls in line with the other three.

Anyway that's how I see it, if it is for mats it will be gloriously overused, if it is for orbs it will be gloriously unnecessary.

[JerichoFayne]

If you can use this ability to spawn additional mods, you might as well put a straw hat & overalls on him & give him a pitchfork.  I don't care about anything else...if a 4-person team can increase their chances of landing rare drops by spamming this ability...we'll all be out there tending crops of the dead.

 

If this is the intent of this ability...the so be it.  We now have a designated mod-farming frame.

[noneuklid]

I'm more concerned with clarifying the power as a sustain ability -- discussion of how well it actually will work or whether or not it's on-theme really does belong in the Necro powers thread, like Hayden said.

 

But I'm like 85% sure it will only spawn "power-up" items, not modules, resources, or blueprints.  Credits or Affinity Orbs would be fringe but I'm pretty sure those are out too.

Edited September 9, 2013 by noneuklid

[Hixlysss]

From what I can tell the reason why people dislike the idea of the power is because of it's RNG aspect. They all keep calling for something that drains life from enemies and feeds it to them or their friends. This does the same thing, but with RNG and also giving energy/ammo as well. If it had less RNG and didn't straight up say "Health, Energy, Ammo drops spawned from dead enemies" they would complain less. If it had a different name like "decay" and just gave anyone near the enemies HP, Energy, and Ammo without the drops they probably wouldn't care.

 

It's a Necro themed warframe, not a warframe that is supposed to be looting corpses for ammo boxes. That is, at least in my opinion, why people appear so against this power.

 

TL;DR, In my opinion people hate this power because of RNG and because it creates drops instead of just invisibly feeding you hp, energy, ammo.

[Phoenix86]

Another possible alternative to "Search the Dead":

 

Decay: The necro drains all enemie's life force in the area, lowering their HP, their armor and their dmg by % (could be 20-30-40-50%) for a set amount of time (could be 5-10-15-20 seconds) after which enemies recover their full power.

Increased by Focus, Continuity and Stretch

[Arkfall]

I'm going by text as-written.  I don't know what 'etc' means, but currently, Search the Dead causes health, energy, and ammo to drop.  No reason to believe otherwise.

 

But I'm like 85% sure it will only spawn "power-up" items, not modules, resources, or blueprints.  Credits or Affinity Orbs would be fringe but I'm pretty sure those are out too.

 

Contradictory statements much?

 

Lesson Time: "Etc" stand for Et Cetera, and according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary Et Cetera means "a number of unspecified additional persons or things"

 

What we know currently Drops from killing enemies from this game: Energy, Ammo, Mods, Resources.

 

The reason to believe it's anything more then what the Devs choose to type out  is because it's the only available logical conclusion to the statement made about the power.

 

You have absolutely no basis for own statements and yet you made a thread off the official thread because you somehow magically believe that you have the answer for everyone's problem with this ability and needed more attention for YOUR idea...

 

Good Troll sir.. Good Troll.

[OOLuigiOo]

Here's an example of someone who understands the ability, but doesn't like it:

 

 

Here's someone who I have no idea if they understand or not, since they don't provide any real feedback (the bulk of complaints):

 

 

Here's someone who doesn't quite understand:

 

 

The last two types of folks are the ones I've been trying to reply to in the official thread, and the folks this thread is targeted at. I also strongly suspect that that the "life leech" crowd is evenly split between those who prefer a vampiric theme and those who don't get that Search is also a sustain ability.

And while I like Search, there's nothing wrong with preferring a different theme or believing you'll never need sustain. That's not who I'm addressing, and it's a great discussion to be having in the official thread (along with the also-common complaint that corpses simply don't last long enough for this ability to be properly useful).

Whether its a great ability or not, he only gets four skills, Do you really want one skill to be grave robbing?

[MXultra]

I understood the use of Search the Dead as being something you use a lot in late wave defense/survival when your team starts running low on health/energy/ammo. I understand it as being very useful.

 

I still don't like it, but that's because it is the weakest link out of the 4 abilities.

1 - attack/debuff (can't remember if they said it did damage)

2 - CC (sounds a lot like Bastille)

3 - corpse looting

4 - summon

 

The main problem is that I want something else to throw around in combat. My suggestion was to combine Search the Dead and Terror Totem and then they would have a free spot for another attack, DoT, debuff, or leech skill.