The game's outdated horde-shooting mechanics are showing (Challenge Discussion)

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

DiabolusUrsus vs. Steel_Rook: both agree that build diversity and customization in Warframe are currently insufficient and largely broken, but disagree on proposed solutions. DiabolusUrsus is in favor of a modding scheme that attaches a downside to every mod, in the style of Blacklight Retribution, whereas Steel_Rook vehemently opposes this and wants to condense customization down to a small set of hyper-impactful choices. More generally, DiabolusUrsus prefers fine-grained customization systems, which focus on maximimizing the control players have in fine-tuning their items, whereas Steel_Rook prefers coarse-grained customization systems, which focus on maximizing the impact of every choice the player makes.

For the one that concerns me - that's a pretty nice summary of impressive brevity. Thank you! 🙂 I need to throw together a more detailed write-up of all the various details involved in that, but that's the broad strokes of it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

DiabolusUrsus vs. Steel_Rook: both agree that build diversity and customization in Warframe are currently insufficient and largely broken, but disagree on proposed solutions. DiabolusUrsus is in favor of a modding scheme that attaches a downside to every mod, in the style of Blacklight Retribution, whereas Steel_Rook vehemently opposes this and wants to condense customization down to a small set of hyper-impactful choices. More generally, DiabolusUrsus prefers fine-grained customization systems, which focus on maximizing the control players have in fine-tuning their items, whereas Steel_Rook prefers coarse-grained customization systems, which focus on maximizing the impact of every choice the player makes.

The actual customization starts a bit later in that video.

Nice synopsis!

More specifically though, whether the effects of modding are finely or coarsely-grained is a secondary concern next to 'modding as progression' vs. 'modding as customization.' I would prefer for progression upgrades to be guaranteed and available immediately once reached, in contrast to mods which are dropped entirely randomly and completely hidden from players before discovery. I believe mods would be better suited to enabling playstyle expression, where players can take increases in power in exchange for a narrowed scope of use for each weapon.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

I personally think going for any sort of grand overhaul is rather unrealistic. DE isn't just going to throw out their gameplay's foundation like that. Ideally we need to point out the individual symptoms for Warframe's flawed damage system, then figure out how they interact with each other. So far, I've identified a few key problems:

• Weapon damage. The simplest and most glaring problem. Before factoring in critical damage and status stacking, it is very easy to see how quickly weapon damage hikes up with MR. Take the game's very first weapon: the MK1-Braton. Its total damage is 18. Its immediate upgrade, the Braton, has a damage of 24. Skip to the (MR8) Braton Prime, and your base damage is now 35. A near 100% damage jump, not even considering the other stats. Now to really send the point home: The (MR14) Tiberon Prime has a base damage of 46; an over 150% increase in base damage, plus better status and crit (and well nearly every stat). Also keep in mind that damage mods stack relative to base damage, and the gap grows even further. As a result of this scaling system, lower MR weapons become impossibly obsolete at higher levels.
• Enemy defenses. To bump up an enemy's health is pretty par for most hoard style games, but to bum up their armor is an oddity. Both of these scale on an exponential curve, causing even the mundane foot soldiers to become towering bulwarks at higher levels. This compounds the weapon damage problem, as it gives direct incentive to use weapons that dish out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. This in turn makes people use weaponry, not because they are fun, but because they are powerful.
• Enemy damage. This is more a matter of realism than a direct argument. Enemies should typically be held to a similar scale to actual playable characters. Think of a low level Grineer wielding a Karak. Damage wise, it would likely be similar to a Tenno's unmodded Karak. Now take a high level Grineer's Karak. By some miracle their Karak deals more damage than a Tenno's modded Karak ever could. This creates the problem of having "no common ground"; an issue that compounds the more it gets ignored. Are the Tenno indestructible golems of long forgotten gods, or are they spring-loaded paper mannequins? Its impossible to gauge.
• Enemy flavor. Basically how enemies interact with the player, their environment, and how well they understand themselves. Common fodder should be relatively unintelligent, under-equipped, and under-trained. After all, we're fighting genetic defects and grumpy cheapskates. HOWEVER, higher ranking personnel would be much more intelligent, better equipped, and able to keep pace with their foes. The difference between a common unit and a rarer unit should be night-and-day, but the reality is they all behave roughly the same: Attack. Use equipment (if applicable). Sound alarm. There is no real reason to observe the enemies as the means to handle them is all the same: Shoot them in the face. Some enemy types take a bit more finesse to handle, but nothing that actually makes them stand out. Its a dull vanilla with the occasional caramel sprinkle.

Whenever one of these factors are changed, everything else shifts with it. We have to find a way to fine-tune Warframe a little bit at a time so not to cause more setbacks.

[Tellakey]

Bumping this glorious thread in hopes of further discussion.