DE Pablo says he would rework Vauban the next time he eats tacos!

[DeMonkey]

Just now, -Sentient- said:

Lets riot in the forums monkey boi, lets do it.

I'd like to think I'm slightly more civilised that that.

Spoiler

I'll fling poop at him instead.

But no, no rioting. That's an easy way to get threads locked and genuine feedback ignored.

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

You're just asking for the "but it's freeeeeeeeeeeeeee" excuse.

Heh.

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Damn, I sound so entitled with that comment, but I'm owning it.

I don't think so. To me, you come off as someone that cares about not just the product, but also everyone that enjoys it.

[-Sentient-]

Just now, MirageKnight said:

Heh.

I don't think so. To me, you come off as someone that cares about not just the product, but also everyone that enjoys it.

Owww, when is the marriage coming?

Spoiler

just kidding imao

 

[MirageKnight]

Just now, -Sentient- said:

Owww, when is the marriage coming?

That escalated quickly o.O;

Back on topic folks!

[C4n0n1ze]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

But no, no rioting. That's an easy way to get threads locked and genuine feedback ignored.

I dont know at this point. I hate to bring up Rahetalius again (who I am currently DMing back and fourth with on twitter) but he's a DE partner and has been critical of there seeming lack of interest in older frames who need solid reworks/tweaks. 

Edit:His responses have slowed to a crawl. Im sure hes getting pelted with DMs at this point lol. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by zen625

[-Sentient-]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd like to think I'm slightly more civilised that that.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'll fling poop at him instead.

But no, no rioting. That's an easy way to get threads locked and genuine feedback ignored.

I think i meant to stay Protest, a civil protest.

[MirageKnight]

1 minute ago, zen625 said:

I hate to bring up Rahetalius again (who I am currently DMing back and fourth with on twitter) but he's a DE partner and has been critical of there seeming lack of interest in older frames who need solid reworks/tweaks. 

Best of luck with that!

[Guest]

The potential problem for any Vauban rework is that his entire kit save Bastille needs more than tweaking the numbers. DE cannot just change numbers, skills themselves must be entirely redone. But you saw all the backlash towards Limbo and Saryn. Chances are, it's more because they have no idea what to slot on the skill bar to replace all the obsolete skills than because there is no intention to rework Vauban.

If you read most of the "Rework Threads", ideas are all over the place. People don't even know if they want the CC theme, the Engineer/Utility theme or even the "Turrets DPS" theme. Of course we all want a rework and reason to sink more forma in, but they cannot take Vauban in any one direction without pissing off a majority of people asking for rework, since people are asking for different things and are broken into many groups. Vauban's theme of 4 CC skills is also dead because frames are becoming more multipurpose. Saryn and Limbo were just ... changed. People didn't ask for change.

We as players may have the right and justification to Dev Bash for this rather off putting incident, because of their replies to the player, but really, one important thing is to get the community behind a single style of Vauban play and solidify a single stance on the rework. If the devs are forced by a unified fanbase breathing down their necks, they can't ignore it and give the crap excuses I outlined above.

Without any impetus to move in any direction, DE simply will not move.

TL:DR - We as players must decide exactly what Vauban should be then force the point across.

[-Sentient-]

2 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The potential problem for any Vauban rework is that his entire kit save Bastille needs more than tweaking the numbers. DE cannot just change numbers, skills themselves must be entirely redone. But you saw all the backlash towards Limbo and Saryn. Chances are, it's more because they have no idea what to slot on the skill bar to replace all the obsolete skills than because there is no intention to rework Vauban.

If you read most of the "Rework Threads", ideas are all over the place. People don't even know if they want the CC theme, the Engineer/Utility theme or even the "Turrets DPS" theme. Of course we all want a rework and reason to sink more forma in, but they cannot take Vauban in any one direction without pissing off a majority of people asking for rework, since people are asking for different things and are broken into many groups. Vauban's theme of 4 CC skills is also dead because frames are becoming more multipurpose. Saryn and Limbo were just ... changed. People didn't ask for change.

We as players may have the right and justification to Dev Bash for this rather off putting incident, because of their replies to the player, but really, one important thing is to get the community behind a single style of Vauban play and solidify a single stance on the rework. If the devs are forced by a unified fanbase breathing down their necks, they can't ignore it and give the crap excuses I outlined above.

Without any impetus to move in any direction, DE simply will not move.

TL:DR - We as players must decide exactly what Vauban should be then force the point across.

Its kind of hard to "decide what we want" when the community is so big, why dont they make a poll and ask players? like an actual poll, the one with more votes wins.

Edited January 15, 2019 by -Sentient-

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

you come off as someone that cares about everyone that enjoys it.

Oof.

I need to work on that. Can't have people thinking I care about them. I've cultivated this lofty and aloof persona for years now.

2 minutes ago, zen625 said:

I dont know at this point. I hate to bring up Rahetalius again (who I am currently DMing back and fourth with on twitter) but he's a DE partner and has been critical of there seeming lack of interest in older frames who need solid reworks/tweaks. 

This is fair, however, as an example whilst riots may work for reddit and obviously prompted the quick "professional chat moderators" stuff, it won't work in this regard.

For reddit, they were attacking moderators. We'd be attacking DE, and that would only put them on the defensive. I agree that perhaps we need to be a bit firmer, and if that means I (and others ofc) need to express genuine disappointment with them then so be it, but rioting in itself wouldn't be beneficial.

And lets face it, even if rioting worked and we got a change, is that what we want our community to be? People who riot till we get what we want?

[C4n0n1ze]

2 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

TL:DR - We as players must decide exactly what Vauban should be then force the point across.

I disagree. I believe that were all aware that a rework could go in ANY direction, but they have yet to announce anything at all as far as him being in line FOR a rework. The community came together and pointed out Garuda's 4 was a copy paste before it was reworked into its current form. Vauban doesn't even have anything mentioned for us to argue about. 😩

[-Sentient-]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Oof.

I need to work on that. Can't have people thinking I care about them. I've cultivated this lofty and aloof persona for years now.

This is fair, however, as an example whilst riots may work for reddit and obviously prompted the quick "professional chat moderators" stuff, it won't work in this regard.

For reddit, they were attacking moderators. We'd be attacking DE, and that would only put them on the defensive. I agree that perhaps we need to be a bit firmer, and if that means I (and others ofc) need to express genuine disappointment with them then so be it, but rioting in itself wouldn't be beneficial.

And lets face it, even if rioting worked and we got a change, is that what we want our community to be? People who riot till we get what we want?

Well..

We as people don't want to riot, but if the government isn't being transparent and right, its needed.

(just an example, if DE isn't responding and/or ignoring our civil suggestions, we will have to be more direct)

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by -Sentient-

[C4n0n1ze]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

And lets face it, even if rioting worked and we got a change, is that what we want our community to be? People who riot till we get what we want?

I agree with this sentiment, the point I was making is even DE partners cant seem to force DE to take second looks at obvious issues. (That Tesla change I SWEAR!)

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Its kind of hard to "decide what we want" when the community is so big, why dont they make a poll and ask players?"

They could, yes, but it would not be useful if say each theme only has a segment of the population supporting it.

The problem, as I stated, is that the devs cannot tell if reworking the "broken" Vauban will actually fix the issue or make it worse with the players. I am sure DE doesn't like hearing all the complaints on the Limbo 2.0 and Saryn 3.0. If they redo Vauban which is a necessity, IMO, they have to hear never ending complaints on yet another frame.

One of the faults of the Warframe community is that it keeps contradicting itself. You are aware how much of a problem this is.

1 minute ago, zen625 said:

I disagree. I believe that were all aware that a rework could go in ANY direction, but they have yet to announce anything at all as far as him being in line FOR a rework. The community came together and pointed out Garuda's 4 was a copy paste before it was reworked into its current form. Vauban doesn't even have anything mentioned for us to argue about. 😩

That's probably because arguing will go no where for Vauban' case. Too many differing opinions.

Reworking an existent frame that formerly had some use is not the same as releasing a new frame. This is why I refuse to compare Vauban to Revenant or Garuda and any arguments for those two.

[-Sentient-]

8 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

They could, yes, but it would not be useful if say each theme only has a segment of the population supporting it.

The problem, as I stated, is that the devs cannot tell if reworking the "broken" Vauban will actually fix the issue or make it worse with the players. I am sure DE doesn't like hearing all the complaints on the Limbo 2.0 and Saryn 3.0. If they redo Vauban which is a necessity, IMO, they have to hear never ending complaints on yet another frame.

One of the faults of the Warframe community is that it keeps contradicting itself. You are aware how much of a problem this is.

 That's probably because arguing will go no where for Vauban' case. Too many differing opinions.

Reworking an existent frame that formerly had some use is not the same as releasing a new frame. This is why I refuse to compare Vauban to Revenant or Garuda and any arguments for those two.

"One of the faults of the Warframe community is that it keeps contradicting itself. You are aware how much of a problem this is."

The problem is, the Warframe community isn't 1 or 2 people, its millions of players who have different opinions

its hard to "decide" what to do, if I was DE, I would go with the most popular request which is the turret

Vauban has 2 decent CC abilities, why does he need more? full CC frames aren't in a good position these days

they need to give him DPS Abilities like a turret or something, because giving him more CC is gonna make it worse.

[C4n0n1ze]

14 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

That's probably because arguing will go no where for Vauban' case. Too many differing opinions.

^^^Agreed. But only if its the initial ability's and not ones DE puts forward.

14 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Reworking an existent frame that formerly had some use is not the same as releasing a new frame. This is why I refuse to compare Vauban to Revenant or Garuda and any arguments for those two.

Vauban would require a complete overhaul at this rate because as you mentioned he has multiple forms of CC (Tesla is debatable though). So regardless of any path they chose the community can act AFTER DE have put forth new skills/ability's. Thus the comparison to the Garuda ability issue in which the community did exactly that. Also lets be honest here, any change to anything but Bastille may probably be an upgrade regardless if its a turret/drone/new ability since he is so reliant on said skill. 

Edit: Your right though if we leave it to the players Vauban will remain as is probably.  

Edited January 15, 2019 by zen625

[Guest]

Just now, -Sentient- said:

"One of the faults of the Warframe community is that it keeps contradicting itself. You are aware how much of a problem this is."

The problem is, the Warframe community isn't 1 or 2 people, its millions of players who have different opinions

its hard to "decide" what to do, if I was DE, I would go with the most popular request which is the turret

Vauban has 2 decent CC abilities, why does he need more? full CC frames aren't in a good position these days

they need to give him DPS Abilities like a turret or something, because giving him more CC is gonna make it worse.

You are repeating what I said. Precisely because it is millions of players and there is no significant popularity of any kind of Vauban Rework, there is no assurance than a change in any direction will be considered "beneficial" for Vauban.

I agree that more CC is pointless. But the turret itself is an iffy thing as the support for it is at best still much less than half of the Vauban players. There is no clear indicator that it will be well received by the majority.

DE burned their hands with Limbo and Saryn, as I said, because both generated very irritating vocal minorities who are unhappy. Vauban's rework would be a higher risk thing as there is no silent majority behind any change. The devs don't dare to take the plunge again. I hate this but it is true.

4 minutes ago, zen625 said:

^^^Agreed. But only if its the initial ability's and not ones DE puts forward.

Vauban would require a complete overhaul at this rate because as you mentioned he has multiple forms of CC (Tesla is debatable though). So regardless of any path they chose the community can act AFTER DE have put forth new skills/ability's. Thus the comparison to the Garuda ability issue in which the community did exactly that. Also lets be honest here, any change to anything but Bastille may probably be an upgrade regardless if its a turret/drone/new ability since he is so reliant on said skill. 

 

Thing is, most people put forth reworks asking for new abilities, not changes to the initial. 

The Garuda ability issue is actually one sided - it is a case where a vocal subgroup's opinions won TBH. I saw a number of threads asking to revert to the first iteration after it was changed. You can't please everyone.

Difference is that people didn't know what Garuda would be before her release. People still have innate biases and expectations on what Vauban is and what his skills should do. Hence it is never equitable.

[-Sentient-]

5 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

You are repeating what I said. Precisely because it is millions of players and there is no significant popularity of any kind of Vauban Rework, there is no assurance than a change in any direction will be considered "beneficial" for Vauban.

I agree that more CC is pointless. But the turret itself is an iffy thing as the support for it is at best still much less than half of the Vauban players. There is no clear indicator that it will be well received by the majority.

DE burned their hands with Limbo and Saryn, as I said, because both generated very irritating vocal minorities who are unhappy. Vauban's rework would be a higher risk thing as there is no silent majority behind any change. The devs don't dare to take the plunge again. I hate this but it is true.

Thing is, most people put forth reworks asking for new abilities, not changes to the initial. 

The Garuda ability issue is actually one sided - it is a case where a vocal subgroup's opinions won TBH. I saw a number of threads asking to revert to the first iteration after it was changed. You can't please everyone.

Difference is that people didn't know what Garuda would be before her release. People still have innate biases and expectations on what Vauban is and what his skills should do. Hence it is never equitable.

Well I rather prefer they rework him with anything instead of letting him like he is

Minelayer and tesla are god dam awful abilities, they are memes basically.

[C4n0n1ze]

@Datam4ss I see where talking past each other. The point I was making with Garuda is we need something to first argue about. Doesn't matter who won in the end or who wants something reverted. We just need something to first rally behind and it's probably going to have to come from DE. Garuda had a vocal minority who wanted a change. They got it after seeing said ability on stream (if I recall correctly) and making a fuss. We have NOTHING put forward by DE, but when they DO if they ever put anything forward, we can take it head on like said vocal minority. Thus the connection I see between Garuda's change and any changes Vauban may receive. 

Edit: And making taco jokes probably isn't going to help....

Edited January 15, 2019 by zen625

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Well I rather prefer they rework him with anything instead of letting him like he is

Minelayer and tesla are god dam awful abilities, they are memes basically.

I have to say, I cannot disagree with you on this.

4 minutes ago, zen625 said:

@Datam4ss I see where talking past each other. The point I was making with Garuda is we need something to first argue about. Doesn't matter who won in the end or who wants something reverted. We just need something to first rally behind and it's probably going to have to come from DE. Garuda had a vocal minority who wanted a change. They got it after seeing said ability on stream (if I recall correctly) and making a fuss. We have NOTHING put forward by DE, but when they DO if they ever put anything forward, we can take it head on like said vocal minority. Thus the connection I see between Garuda's change and any changes Vauban may receive. 

Edit: And making taco jokes probably isn't going to help....

Well, I do agree that Taco jokes aren't helping, even if Pablo streamed himself in Taco Bell chowing down a few cheap Tacos.

If DE releases skill reworks or other releases, most of the time it is final. Even other things have the same formula. Ember Vermillion Skin is a good case study - when the backlash was way larger than Garuda's skill, but nothing changed.

[-Sentient-]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Only asked about reworks. And over powered is over powered frankly, and saryn pushes it to the extreme. 

And she also is one of the few nuke frames (if not the only) that escalates well due to the corrosive damage.

[MirageKnight]

39 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And lets face it, even if rioting worked and we got a change, is that what we want our community to be? People who riot till we get what we want?

It also says something about the company if its customers have to practically riot to get needed changes to make a feature useful and enjoyable.

[C4n0n1ze]

10 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

If DE releases skill reworks or other releases, most of the time it is final.

I totally agree on this. Case and point? Tesla. With other frames that charge and cast ability's (for instance Hydroid) there is an noticeable change to said casted ability. Tesla....just does sliiiightly more damage and receives a higher chance to proc status effects. Didnt matter how many of us screamed that it just should have had a double energy cost at the most instead of a cast which slowed down Vauban's gameplay even more. 

 

10 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Ember Vermillion Skin is a good case study

Im sorry I haven't been playing long enough to be aware of this incident but I will take your word on it. I DO believe after the MASSIVE amounts of reworks/suggestions/questions posed by players on the forums, that DE will actually run a rework of Vauban by the playerbase. BUT I could be wrong. 

Edit: Also with Ember are we referring to a skin? Isn't that different then an ability rework? Is that actually what happened? Any light you could shine on said scenario would be helpful. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by zen625

[Guest]

1 minute ago, zen625 said:

I totally agree on this. Case and point? Tesla. With other frames that charge and cast ability's (for instance Hydroid) there is an noticeable change to said casted ability. Tesla....just does sliiiightly more damage and receives a higher chance to proc status effects. Didnt matter how many of us screamed that it just should have had a double energy cost at the most instead of a cast which slowed down Vauban's gameplay even more. 

 

Im sorry I haven't been playing long enough to be aware of this incident but I will take your word on it. I DO believe after the MASSIVE amounts of reworks/suggestions/questions posed by players on the forums, that DE will actually run a rework of Vauban by the playerbase. BUT I could be wrong. 

Tesla "change" was sad. I agree.

The Ember Skin thing even had petitions by players to remove it for ugliness. The amount of people against it was another level, really. Nothing changed, though.

[C4n0n1ze]

./facedesk I mentioned to someone that Vauban was based on an actual French engineer, and that he was in a sorry state. There response? "What they got something against French people?" Im like noooooo they are based in cana.... "Ohhhhh so there English speaking Canadians and dont like French speaking Canadians!" ....Please stop.....