I Wish To Express My Displeasure At The Need For Keys To Get Into The Orokin Derelects.

[-CM-SASMcBride]

yeah i havent even tried yet but having to go through all this just to fight the boss once seems way too much to me

[SanityRobot]

yeah i havent even tried yet but having to go through all this just to fight the boss once seems way too much to me

 

I hate playing the game too.

[theGreatZamboni]

DE, my good sirs.  I thought you were above this.  This will only cause a massive uproar of displeasure and anger at this decision.  I know that you would like to give higher level players something to do with their credits, but this is not the way!  You gave us the impression that you would replace the jupiter tileset with the orokin derelict tileset.  But you locked it behind a paywall of sorts -one of grinding and resources, not platinum.-

 

I have 2 solutions for this.

The high road - Just put the new tileset and boss in jupiter and we'll pretend this awkward incident never happened.

 

The mid road - Make derelict keys infinite use.  (with your past decisions, it wouldn't surprise me if they are already infinite use!  if so, good!)

 

The Low road - Continue on this path of stepping on your customers, and end up having warframe die of stagnation and massive player migration to other games.  Just look at every other f2p game out there.  You do derive your money from customers, indeed.  And unhappy customers means no customers.

Any posters in this should note that this is not a hate thread.  This is a constructive criticism thread.  Our friends at DE made a mistake is all.  Give them some room, they spent a lot of time on Warframe. 

 

If they keep adding and not fixing what is already in the game, it will be Tribes: Ascend all over again. The Golem was supposed to replace J3. You know what made finding this out worse? Going to Jupiter, knowing you have all the Lotus line re-recorded and hearing "Somewhere aboard this Orokin Vessel". THE J3 GOLEM IS IN THE ASTEROID BASE TILE SET. You have the lines for the J3 tailor made for the new derelict tile set but you screwed us. There is so much wrong with this update it is disgusting. I don't care about weapons. You released an new boss without the new Armor system. What is the point of that???? Does that make sense to anyone?

 

Even if you were ok with making keys and grinding for more materials so you can grind more, are you ok with not being able to construct more than one key at a time? This has been an issue since the addition of clan resources. YOU CAN ONLY MAKE ONE MUTAGEN MASS AT A TIME. I don't care about scarves. I am so @(*()$ angry and it is just a video game. But so many developers screw over their fans by just ignoring them. There is nothing good about this update. Bugs, The New UI is 1 step forward in design and 5 steps back in function, F*** it. If I log on tomorrow and there isn't some serious Xbone level backtracking/damage control I'm so @(*()$ done. I'm tired of this. You are not listening to us.

Edited September 14, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Mythblaze]

If they keep adding and not fixing what is already in the game, it will be Tribes: Ascend all over again. The Golem was supposed to replace J3. You know what made finding this out worse? Going to Jupiter, knowing you have all the Lotus line re-recorded and hearing "Somewhere aboard this Orokin Vessel". THE J3 GOLEM IS IN THE ASTEROID BASE TILE SET. You have the lines for the J3 tailor made for the new derelict tile set but you screwed us. There is so much wrong with this update it is disgusting. I don't care about weapons. You released an new boss without the new Armor system. What is the point of that???? Does that make sense to anyone?

 

Even if you were ok with making keys and grinding for more materials so you can grind more, are you ok with not being able to construct more than one key at a time? This has been an issue since the addition of clan resources. YOU CAN ONLY MAKE ONE MUTAGEN MASS AT A TIME. I don't care about scarves. I am so @(*()$ angry and it is just a video game. But so many developers screw over their fans by just ignoring them. There is nothing good about this update. Bugs, The New UI is 1 step forward in design and 5 steps back in function, F*** it. If I log on tomorrow and there isn't some serious Xbone level backtracking/damage control I'm so @(*()$ done. I'm tired of this. You are not listening to us.

I feel the same way. Think using a pot and pan on them may get things done? I don't think so.We only make them hear us with our wallet. 

[f3llyn]

What exactly is your point...... i offered a solution, your post makes no sense.....There is also a difference between offering creative advise and pointless complaining which is what most of the posts are. Also if your going to use "offering feedback" as your excuse to complain may i direct you to https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/forum/21-gameplay-feedback/ the actual place for it.

 

My point is that the grind is unacceptable even after the key changes. Grind buried 3 layers deep. No thanks.

 

You said we could either pay to get it or play. But there was a third rout, too. Not playing at all. At least until they make it reasonable.

 

It's been a major complaint for the last 6 months that the game is becoming very grind intensive and DE has acknowledged that. And yet they continue to move in that direction. I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I'm as interested as I used to be when it's gonna take upwards of 40, 50, or even 60 hours just for 1 frame (theoretically, we don't know how long it's going to take but those are the numbers done by math). And that doesn't even take into consideration getting the materials together or build times.

 

 

Then play the game and get the frame and be that much more appreciative when you get it and actually feel you accomplished something.

 

Except for it's not an accomplishment. It's just an exercise in extreme tedium.

Edited September 14, 2013 by f3llyn

[Grulos]

DE, my good sirs.  I thought you were above this.  This will only cause a massive uproar of displeasure and anger at this decision.  I know that you would like to give higher level players something to do with their credits, but this is not the way!  You gave us the impression that you would replace the jupiter tileset with the orokin derelict tileset.  But you locked it behind a paywall of sorts -one of grinding and resources, not platinum.-

 

I have 2 solutions for this.

The high road - Just put the new tileset and boss in jupiter and we'll pretend this awkward incident never happened.

 

The mid road - Make derelict keys infinite use.  (with your past decisions, it wouldn't surprise me if they are already infinite use!  if so, good!)

 

The Low road - Continue on this path of stepping on your customers, and end up having warframe die of stagnation and massive player migration to other games.  Just look at every other f2p game out there.  You do derive your money from customers, indeed.  And unhappy customers means no customers.

Any posters in this should note that this is not a hate thread.  This is a constructive criticism thread.  Our friends at DE made a mistake is all.  Give them some room, they spent a lot of time on Warframe. 

It wouldn't be as bad, if the new Golem would drop the parts with a VERY HIGH chance (if not every run)

[DaddysHome]

I wonder how much Scott has to do with all of this ... worst decision makes on the team imo

[Mythblaze]

Ran a derelict defense, not one drop for the key. What a damn great waste of my mats and time. 

[theGreatZamboni]

My point is that the grind is unacceptable even after the key changes. Grind buried 3 layers deep. No thanks.

 

You said we could either pay to get it or play. But there was a third rout, too. Not playing at all. At least until they make it reasonable.

 

It's been a major complaint for the last 6 months that the game is becoming very grind intensive and DE has acknowledged that. And yet they continue to move in that direction. I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I'm as interested as I used to be when it's gonna take upwards of 40, 50, or even 60 hours just for 1 frame (theoretically, we don't know how long it's going to take but those are the numbers done by math). And that doesn't even take into consideration getting the materials together or build times.

 

 

 

Except for it's not an accomplishment. It's just an exercise in extreme tedium.

 

The level of &#! kissing from people here is absurd. There is nothing justifiable about this. While every other developer is trying to get rid of grinding, DE is making one of the most grind-centric games ever made. Everyone and their grandmother has offered great advice to DE and they ignore it. There is a reason we are so loud and abrasive. Because when you make a game for people, it no longer belongs to you. If the people you are making the game for hate it, they won't play it.

[theGreatZamboni]

"OH YOU HAVE TOO MANY MATERIALS AND CREDITS! INSTEAD OF MAKING A FAIR AND REASONABLE WAY FOR YOU TO USE THEM, WASTE THEM ON THESE!!! WOOOOO" - DE

[Zamte]

Then play the game and get the frame and be that much more appreciative when you get it and actually feel you accomplished something.

 

This is a ridiculous suggestion. It's really easy to tell people "Just work for it if you can't afford it!" if you don't consider the actual numbers.

 

If the boss requires 30 runs to get all of the parts, which is about where my average lies, then on top of all of the resources it requires 220 hours of waiting time. If you consider just the fact that you have to log in every 1-3 hours to set up a new key to craft, and the 50 solid hours of running missions, you're looking at making this game your job for over a week.

 

There are people working at factories in third world countries being paid 50 cents a day who would refuse to do this because it doesn't respect their time. 

 

If you assume each time you log in to craft a new key it takes 10 total minutes out of your schedule to get to the computer, boot up, log in, etc, then the total time between that and all the runs is 66 hours, to save spending $20. That's around 30 cents per hour worth of "earning" over the course of one and a half typical work weeks, to unlock a new "class".

 

Again, this could be made so much more interesting if they just made the keys potentially reusable. Put a little navigation station on the ships. Give players the option to track down six different pieces of a mechanism they need to install on the navigation station which will enable it to power up long enough to tell them where the ship is drifting. This allows the key to be used again. Place the parts in random lockers or boxes, or create treasure rooms or parkour events like in the void. You could maybe even make the station act like a mobile defense point, and require it be defended as it's updating the key. This takes a bunch of really expensive, 10 minute rush runs and turns them into twenty minute or half hour gameplay filled treasure hunts. It solves the issue of it being too quick with actual gameplay instead of number inflation and exponential costs.

[theGreatZamboni]

Then play the game and get the frame and be that much more appreciative when you get it and actually feel you accomplished something.

 

Stop white knighting shoddy design and business practices. You people are what kill games. "I for one love that Hi-Rez stopped development on Tribes! It makes the game better!" ~ this is akin to what you are saying. The entire game is grinding. There is no substance.

[theGreatZamboni]

This is a ridiculous suggestion. It's really easy to tell people "Just work for it if you can't afford it!" if you don't consider the actual numbers.

 

If the boss requires 30 runs to get all of the parts, which is about where my average lies, then on top of all of the resources it requires 220 hours of waiting time. If you consider just the fact that you have to log in every 1-3 hours to set up a new key to craft, and the 50 solid hours of running missions, you're looking at making this game your job for over a week.

 

There are people working at factories in third world countries being paid 50 cents a day who would refuse to do this because it doesn't respect their time. 

 

If you assume each time you log in to craft a new key it takes 10 total minutes out of your schedule to get to the computer, boot up, log in, etc, then the total time between that and all the runs is 66 hours, to save spending $20. That's around 30 cents per hour worth of "earning" over the course of one and a half typical work weeks, to unlock a new "class".

 

Again, this could be made so much more interesting if they just made the keys potentially reusable. Put a little navigation station on the ships. Give players the option to track down six different pieces of a mechanism they need to install on the navigation station which will enable it to power up long enough to tell them where the ship is drifting. This allows the key to be used again. Place the parts in random lockers or boxes, or create treasure rooms or parkour events like in the void. You could maybe even make the station act like a mobile defense point, and require it be defended as it's updating the key. This takes a bunch of really expensive, 10 minute rush runs and turns them into twenty minute or half hour gameplay filled treasure hunts. It solves the issue of it being too quick with actual gameplay instead of number inflation and exponential costs.

 

Make gamemodes that service fun instead of grind. DE, you know why people love survival and defense? Because it services the grind. If you made dynamic game modes with player driven and non player driven events self contained within the game, it would be...fun. Section 8, Killzone 2, MAG all had dynamic game modes that worked for the players, changing depending on how they chose to play along with some predetermined choices to create obstacles that are fun to overcome. Your game is effectively broken and this update showed, yet people are defending you. To offer criticism is fine, to have people defend shlock is not. Take the criticism, just because you screwed up doesn't mean anything to us as long as you fix it and admit you screwed up. You guys don't even voice your reasons for making changes. It is the whole problem, you ignore us, make changes and don't tell us why. Hell, if you think that this grind for keys is a good thing, then @(*()$ tell us why!!!! Don't just sit there and expect us to take this. Your game is failing, have you seen the numbers on steam? How many people do you think have the non-steam version installed? Your surge of players came from Steam and now look. This is Tribes and SMNC all over again. You pull cheap tricks to get people in but offer nothing to make them stay. This isn't fair, it isn't smart.

[D3ST]

Sad pandaface say: I agree 100% with OP.....

Please fix this or loose players..

[Mak_Gohae]

Why do you guys want to go through content so fast?

[f3llyn]

Why do you guys want to go through content so fast?

 

Yeah, because that's all it comes down to.

 

I mean really guys. Who doesn't want to farm more missions repeatedly for upwards of 60 hours with the same frames and weapons we've been using for the last 2 or 3 months or more to get the new frame so we can actually play with it?

Edited September 14, 2013 by f3llyn

[Mak_Gohae]

Yeah, because that's all it comes down to.

 

That's all i see here.

Different variations of "taking too long. "

Complaining about the recipe is just complaining about time because the recourse drop rates now in this game are redunkulously high.

Put on Thief's Wit and actually pick up drops and you are going to get a huge amount of stuff. Do a mobile defense mission... the rate there is astronomical.

[Zamte]

Why do you guys want to go through content so fast?

 

I enjoy playing the game, regardless of "content", where content means new things.

 

However I do it by running around unlocking harder planets, looking at my inventory to see what resources I'm low on and picking a place with them that looks fun, or by leveling new items at random places. I move around, I fight different factions, collect different resources, use different maps, on different planets, with different frames. I simply enjoy the most basic level of gameplay that is the combat.

 

This sort of "content" makes that impossible. If I want this Nekros frame, then I have to spend tens of hours of my time grinding away hundreds of runs to get there. It takes my carefree, random enjoyment and focuses it into a repetitive edge, and causes me to lose motivation and not want to play anymore.

[CloudPies]

Instead of putting an entirely new warframe which you have been trying to hype us up about behind a grind wall, why not shove your scarves there? 4 bp drops to make the scarves like the miter, its cosmetic so you won't be accused of blocking off content.

[D3ST]

Nonsense. It's bad game design philosophy that far too many companies have decided is the only course of action because most of them have never tried anything else. Valve is a shining example of the fact that this system is flawed, pointless, and harmful.

 

DE gives us a really cool game. I enjoy this game. I enjoy running around, flipping, sliding, shooting, etc. I don't find it "grindy" because I just enjoy playing in the vague direction of a goal and I get it before I notice.

 

The issue comes here, however. DE has decided that they will make money by allowing us to skip things. They want us to skip gameplay. Now, making this a 100% choice makes it easy. If I decide I really want X thing, then I may as well just buy it to make my enjoyment of the game higher. That's what it SHOULD be about. Increasing my enjoyment. Instead though the modern paradigm for free to play games is rather to force people. Who's going to play games for enjoyment? Hilarious. No, we have to make them uncomfortable, bored, or irritated enough that they want to skip the gameplay in order to get a new thing, while not going so far as to make them not want to play at all.

 

So in the end, rather than getting a fun game made by an awesome company who loves their game as much as their players do, where people buy stuff when they feel like it because the game is fun and everyone is happy and enjoying themselves, you get a fun game that regularly invites you into a back alley to discuss how attached you are to your kneecaps, to try to "solicit" a payment, or else they're going to make your day a little worse for a while.

 

Now, I am not blaming DE at all. I genuinely don't believe they do this intentionally, or at least not fully intentionally. I believe the game development community as a whole has created this idea that people will never part with their money unless you pry it from them. They don't think they can survive by simply making a good game and then allowing us to pay them if we like it. I don't blame DE for using exploitative, manipulative game design tactics, because they're proven in free to play games, even if we all hate them, and in the end, keeping themselves alive as a company is more important than all of our enjoyment. I just really wish somebody would strike out in their own direction and prove it works for people other than Valve.

 

 

Disclaimer edit: I love DE as a company. I think they're awesome. I see how much they love this game. I'm just really getting tired of my only options being to pay to skip it all, or jump through tons of hoops. I'd rather just play and pay when I can, because I want to.

He speaks the truth!!

Couldent have said it bettere my self..

[Love2Camp]

The keys are bad, but the lack of any supporting matchmaking for key-missions is even worse.

I really hate spamming for teammembers.

[carbondragon]

I don't know that I would have a problem with it if you were guarenteed a part of Necro on every new-Golem kill. Seeing that red orb fly out of him would be a great way to keep me going, even if I wind up with 5 million helmets, 3 systems, and no chassis, like I did with Ash. But no, we're stuck in the RNG 3 times as much now...

[theGreatZamboni]

Why do you guys want to go through content so fast?

 

Are you a moron? Grind doesn't mean more content. I cannot believe the amount of white knighting over this. What do you stand to gain from defending DE on this? It makes the game worse, ffs, you and people like you ruin this stuff. If DE made logging into the game cost plat, I bet you'd defend that too.

[eStecko]

OP nailed it, nothing there to add.

 

Sadly this update was very disapointing to me and i will just take a break from Warframe for few months. Because there is many things that needs to be fixed for months already and instead we're getting more stuff (hello there sirs called powercreep), less chance to drop stuff (dat rng) and more grinding, that by the looks of it is becoming the end-game of Warframe. Nothing really new was added this update, instead of more grind and little UI rework (good job on the stats). Some update features coming out untested - the huge CPU crashing screw up last weekend, Uru scarf without customization and physics that make it fly in random directions, stretching its model and doing more ninja stuff that we can now with our stamina, etc, etc...

 

Problem coming up i can see miles away... Conclave will become Gear Score in PvE, that will evaluate player's "skill" in grinding and their gear level, even more gating content and players apart.

 

But as i said... i will come back to the game after few months and see if its even alive, since this design direction will not last long... hopefully.

 

Iam sorry DE, but no money from me anymore. For a design tip, just look at Guild Wars 2, with their live updates and their design decisions, forum activity and how the game actualy brings people togather, without them knowing of those design choices. Obviously it's dumb comparing coop-third person shooter with open world mmorpg, but you can easily reflect many mechanics, design and implementing from one to another.

Edited September 14, 2013 by eStecko

[dogmachines]

I don't post much, but I'd like to voice my support of the OP.  If I want Nekros I either have to pay 375 plat which comes out to a plat purchase of around 25 dollars, which I could buy an entire game with rather than just one character in this game, or I have to play until I have 5 nav coords, then wait while a key crafts, then go kill the new Golem and get a shot at a BP part. Rinse and repeat with added farming for key materials. This is going to take tons of time, and I have things to do besides play Warframe. This is a huge disappointment for me considering that I had the impression that the Golem and Derelict tile set were going to replace the current setup on Jupiter, which isn't exactly a crazy idea given that we have been told repeatedly that the Golem would be retooled. Instead, I am left with the choice of coughing up money or grinding for days.  While I have a steady income, I'm not willing to pay 25 dollars for Nekros. He looks fun and all, but if I'm going to spend that kind of money I can get a full game on Steam. Because I feel like I'm being strong-armed into paying an outrageous price, I'm actually less willing to spend money on this game.