So Is Stamina Back To Exactly What It Used To Be?

[Ghobe]

Why should I be impacted so greatly that 3 mods in U10 are required to even barely match 2 mods in U9 (actually worse too)?

Here's the real question: Why do you think you need to be able to be that fast/resilient?

[AarkAngel]

The update 10 version was almost fine. The only thing they needed to do was change it so that slow frames had higher stamina while fast frames had higher regen. Fast frame users weren't complaining at all, yet the people that were complaining used slow frames and talked about how it was "wrong" that they couldn't go fast. Which just blows my mind. "I picked slow frame Y I NO GO FAST!? UNBALANCED!" And I loved the complaints "the stamina mods shouldn't be mandatory"....they weren't, they were only mandatory if you wanted that much stamina and regen to which every time I suggested that I got met with backlash. "ERMAGERD! I CAN ONLY FULL SPRINT FOR 8 SECONDS! THAT'S AT MOST 2 ROOMS!" Which I also didn't understand...why are you traversing two rooms in a single sprint? Because you're rushing. To which they would say NUH UNH, but the reality is that they were, because in normal play, once you find enemies, you will continue to find them in every single room thereafter(excluding exterminate).

 

Sigh...these complainers are the same people that would support a change like making Rhino Stomp a passive that goes off every time he takes a step, except it has no animation. You just get to run around dealing 1k damage with every step and knocking all enemies up and freezing them in place for 5 seconds! Uses no energy!

 

I've never understood how people can enjoy being completely overpowered...

Because most of the players that were pulled to this game are tweenagers who saw "space ninjas" and thought "A GAME THAT GIVES ME GODMODE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?" Everything I have ever seen about asking them to fix besides actual bugs is asking DE is remove yet another limitation from the game.

 

If DE keeps listening to these twerps we're going to end up with no shields or health and just be invincible.

[CaptainohCaptain]

The rusher problem needs to be fixed by fixing the enemies and missions and not by slowing down the player because player speed is relative. The rushers will still be faster if they built faster frames. The only difference stamina nerfs would make is &!$$ing everyone off.

OK - here is the solution — magic 100% accurate lethal bullet if you got 50 meter away from your team.

What, doesn't sound good?

Edited September 16, 2013 by Icouldjustkissyou

[VKhaun]

OK - here is the solution — magic 100% accurate lethal bullet if you got 100 meter away from your team.

What, doesn't sound good?

Sounds perfect.

 

 

 

AFK, bio break.

[litlit]

If by "back to the way it was" you mean completely overpowered and exploitable so you have infinite sprint which enables rushers and people to "parkour or no life" then yes. it is.

 

IMO, Stamina was far better off with the limitations it had after U10 went live.

 

The only reason so many people complained was because they either were horrible at playing their frame or they were mad because they couldn't god-mode through levels anymore.

 

As usual, AarkAngel, not only are you wrong, you're wrong in a way that is a perfect 100% opposite to reality.

 

The movement mechanics pre-U10 added depth to the game. This depth was the result of giving players a skillsink that granted great amount of freedom. If you got good at it, you could move very fast. This freedom gave the gameplay depth because it gave players options: you could be a rusher, you could use melee without having an adverse impact on your speed, you could mix combat with parkour, etc. Furthermore, this freedom also worked precisely because it did not grant players godmode; enemies could still track you and hit you just as accurately, heavies and scorpions could still knock you down, etc.

 

The only thing the stamina changes have accomplished is to make the game more tedious. Rushers can still rush, they just have to use the Zorens or equip some stamina mods. Non-rushers have to spend more time waiting for their stamina to recharge. Exploration, melee combat, and using parkour are all disincentivized, because we're constantly reminded that we'll have to slow down and wait for that damn green bar to recharge if we want to move at a reasonable pace. And forget about using parkour during combat -- that was already heavily-disincentivized before U10 since melee is so underpowered, U10 just makes this even more true.

 

Lastly, show others some basic respect. Do not project your weird S#&$ onto other people. People have explained why they are/were complaining about the stamina changes; portraying them as being irrational and "mad" is childish and counter-productive to good discussion.

Edited September 16, 2013 by litlit

[fatpig84]

Here's the real question: Why do you think you need to be able to be that fast/resilient?

How am i resiliant?

I dont equip redirection on my Nyx loki n even Rhino now?

Grineer are hit scan.

I rely purely on dodging their attacks.

My loki is so fragile that a brush against any grineer heavy in ceres is death if he hits me of course, but usually I will kill him first.

Yes i play on varro even without redirection as a melee loki.

If you dislike speed n ability to almost bullet dodge the issue is you.

Not me.

Edited September 16, 2013 by fatpig84

[Estred]

The big Stamina thread has dome good ideas. I liked the new stamina but there wasn't much incentive to use them I got used to being a smidge slower. A Warframe imo should have

 

1 Aura Slot

4 Ability Slots

4-6 Regular Slots

1 Mobility Slot

 

total 10-12 Mods out of an available 32 without hamstringing a Warframe to use Stamina Mods when they WANT to use Ability Mods, but you can't have both Increased Stamina and Recovery or Run Speed without sacrificing a normal mod slot.

[Ghobe]

If you dislike speed n ability to almost bullet dodge the issue is you.

Not me.

With the mods you wouldn't have speed issues. But god forbid you have to use mods to achieve something right? That's just not right! I should be able to equip all power mods AND be fast! /eyeroll

[Ganpot]

With the mods you wouldn't have speed issues. But god forbid you have to use mods to achieve something right? That's just not right! I should be able to equip all power mods AND be fast! /eyeroll

 

Yes, god forbid everyone can behave like an actual ninja right from the start.  I mean, it's not like this game ever used the word ninja in their marketing, or emphasized parkour and fast-paced combat in trailers. 

 

On that note, when are we going to finally get chest-high walls everywhere?  Come on DE, don't you want to appeal to Gears of War and Mass Effect fans?  That's literally the only way any game has ever been successful in all of history.  And don't get me started on your use of unnatural, non-grey and brown colors. 

[Tulzscha]

Cleaned up the personal attacks and derailment. Please stay civil guys, carry on. :)

[Othergrunty]

With the mods you wouldn't have speed issues. But god forbid you have to use mods to achieve something right? That's just not right! I should be able to equip all power mods AND be fast! /eyeroll

 

And once again you people in favor of the previous change completely ignore all the new players who don't have those mods from the start, nor do they have the resources to boost them to the point where they can get a resemblance of the previous system or have upgraded frames with 60 mod points were installing a mod with 9 and 7 mod point cost does not destroy their effectivity past level 30 maps.

 

Face it, the previous change was a huge turn off for any new players, since instead of being able to run from the start their first experience would be crawling to a stop after a few seconds and people like you telling them to get a mod that might for them drop every blue moon.

 

Even if they would have ignored all the long time players complaining about the change, they would have needed to change the system more towards favoring long sprinting again, when they realised what the change meant for new players and the resulting decreasing number of new players.

 

Just like how mercury has no Nightmare missions anymore, new players are a deciding factor to changes too.

[ShroudedInLight]

This will be a low quality post because I have 2 hours of sleep but hear me out.

 

As a new player the guy above me has it right, I just started playing Warframe a week and a half ago, and honestly I love the game. Despite being new, I focused down on mods, both for my warframe and my starting weapons, and I was capable of holding my own in a fight all the way through Earth and even in the Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn regions. The MK-1, and Lato both were weak in comparison to other people's weapons but I could still deal enough damage to feel useful and thanks to Pull I could regularly pull 25% damage rating in missions. I: A new Player with barely upgraded gear, was able to keep up with damage against my much better equipped opponents! I felt useful, which is so important in Warframe, because this game is like most shooters and it is a power fantasy. I love being a space ninja, it's a ton of fun, and being a useful space ninja just takes the darn cake. 

 

That was, until the Stamina changes hit in. You see one of the first things I did when I started was learning how to move, it didn't take long for me to obtain perfect freedom of movement within the system. It felt great. You have no idea how wonderful it was when I learned how to sprint forever, or how to do the super jump or a Wall jump super jump. That feeling of sailing over and entire room of enemies only to land in the middle of them and Crush them all to pieces with my Mag. That was what made the game fun for me, what made it enjoyable. Warframe provides a combination of speed, action, and grinding that honestly is right up my ally. The game was made for me.

 

Then U10 hit and I felt slow. I know I'll sound like I'm exaggerating but I felt like all of those skills, tactics, and all the fun I'd been teaching myself to have in game had suddenly been invalidated. You couldn't slide cancel, you couldn't move forever, and suddenly Warframe became a slog for me. My weapons were enough to handle enemies but those few extra seconds I had to spend on each one thanks to the low quality gear meant that I had to rush more than ever because I couldn't afford to be caught without the energy to Pull a room that had me cornered. However, I couldn't even rush at that point. Before, I was keeping up with the other frames, you know? Even a well played Ashe and Loki, I was within a room of them at all times only falling behind if I screwed up reading the map. However, with the U10 changes I got left in the dust. Namely because before I didn't need any stamina mods, and suddenly I was basically REQUIRED to use mods that I didn't own in order to retain the freedom of movement that had drawn me to Warframe in the first place. If found myself struggling to make extraction, to even see Vor's face before he got exploded. A single mistake on my part left me a room behind the rest instead of a few seconds, and thanks to the slog of moving so slow suddenly EVERYONE was rushing. No one had time for enemies, which left me dealing with them as I tried to hurl my little frame forward as quickly as possible. I ended up trying risky jumps I knew I couldn't do, and occasionally getting stuck in walls from trying anything and everything to move as quickly as possible.

 

Nothing helped, the game felt...bad. As someone who has only been playing for a week I can tell you that the difference between stamina in U9 and Pre patch U10 was night and day. It was play and not play, really, and I was ready to quit till it got fixed. Fortunately, it was, and I now have the freedom of movement I enjoyed.

 

Whatever DE does, I hope they never take away that movement again. It's the charm of the game, the skill, the finesse, and the power behind Warframe is not slaughtering millions of baddies with friends. I could do that in ME3, and did in the MP for 440 hours. It wasn't being a Ninja, I have Rising Revengence for that. It was combining it all into a single well made package that took the best elements of each.

 

So, as a new player, Stamina being back to the way it was happens to be the best thing to happen while I've been playing. That's not saying a lot, but I think it's important to consider how system changes effect new players as well as you old cynics.

[RealityMachina]

Because most of the players that were pulled to this game are tweenagers who saw "space ninjas" and thought "A GAME THAT GIVES ME GODMODE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

Question:

 

Have you actually played beyond the low level content? At all?

 

Because the thought of having infinite stamina in a hypothetical Warframe that had that doesn't really make the thought of having to fight in Pluto or Eris sound much better.

 

EDIT: Actually, let's change that to the game in general, since newbies are still a thing that needs to be taken into account for these sort of things, as the two people above me have explained in greater depth.

 

I mean, ok, let's say we get infinite stamina. That means we can sprint, jump, swing my weapon, block, etc without worrying about me being suddenly unable to do that.

 

We still have to do objectives we still have limited health and shields, still have limited energy, for new players they may not even have all of their powers yet, blocking's still useless, and melee still requires people to get up and close. Or, in other words...exactly how do we get godmode from this again?

Edited September 16, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Well it isn't as bad as the Day 1 U10 speed fix, at least we don't see massive walls of QQ.

 

I can live with it now.

[Acos]

*cough* To actually answer the OP: 

It's not as indefinite as it was before, but I only feel "sluggish" without stamina mods instead of completely out of breath within five seconds of running. With Quick Rest I can run more or less indefinitely provided that I take advantage of sliding every once in awhile. With Marathon I probably wouldn't even need to slide. Rush naturally still works exactly as it did before. 

I feel it's about right where it should be; your mobility is not utterly gutted without mods, and you can play just fine without them, but equipping them also yields a tangible performance increase. Stamina related mods are important without being mandatory. 

[Ghobe]

Face it, the previous change was a huge turn off for any new players, since instead of being able to run from the start their first experience would be crawling to a stop after a few seconds and people like you telling them to get a mod that might for them drop every blue moon.

 

Even if they would have ignored all the long time players complaining about the change, they would have needed to change the system more towards favoring long sprinting again, when they realised what the change meant for new players and the resulting decreasing number of new players.

I'd just like to point out a few quotes...

Or.... call me crazy.... OR, we can add the fun back to all the frames, especially slow ones like rhino (no vanguard helm), frost, vauban, etc. Fun, as in the ability to cross a room with stamina to spare

because this is a game about being an agile ninja. Even Rhino's supposed to be agile, not a cover shooter protagonist.

I may main a rhino, but I NEED stamina to catch up to people if it's going to be a face paced mission with certaint people,

I can see how Rhino and other slow frames will be effected, but already fast frames it's not that big of a deal.

But using Nova, which it is up there with the group of fast frames, I haven't notice THAT much of a differences.

but I REALLY feel the changes (on vauban,

 

See the common trend? The only people complaining were people that were using slower frames...Rhino, Frost, Vauban...the people using faster frames didn't complain at all...Loki, Nova(excluding fatpig who claims that somehow he was running out of stamina on a Loki...which I was using during the time and didn't have any trouble sprinting from one node to another in survival without stamina mods). New players don't even have access to a slow frame until the end of venus, which also has nightmare missions, so take your new player thing and shove it.

 

Only three changes need be made: Remove the cooldown before stamina began regenerating, increase the maximum stamina on slow frames, increase regen on fast frames while lowering their max some more.

 

I don't understand this mentality of "I couldn't get back up to the old amount QQ" but why should you be able to!? Why should you be able to attain INFINITE stamina? Hell it's infinite now again, I can't find a way to run out of stamina without using stamina cards unless I run around in circles for a full 30 seconds, and I better not slide because I'll recover half-3/4 my stamina by the time that slide ends. Stop using the point of "I'm supposed to be a ninja" and start using "why should I have infinite stamina even before mods". Lore always takes the backseat to mechanics. Always. Here's another question, with stamina basically being endless in its current state: Why do we have stamina at all? Why do we have any stamina mods at all? The mechanic can't be overused, it's impossible.

[RealityMachina]

 I can't find a way to run out of stamina without using stamina cards unless I run around in circles for a full 30 seconds, and I better not slide because I'll recover half-3/4 my stamina by the time that slide ends.

My bullS#&$ senses are tingling.

 

I was using Nyx today, doing some J2K Golem runs with a few clanmates. I kinda remember managing to run out of Stamina few times while progressing at a normal pace, and sliding only recovers, what, 1/4, maybe 1/2 with the delay now?

 

Also I still want an explanation concerning your "you people just want god mode!" comments earlier.

Edited September 16, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Ghobe]

My bullS#&$ senses are tingling.

 

I was using Nyx today, doing some J2K Golem runs with a few clanmates. I kinda remember managing to run out of Stamina few times while progressing at a normal pace, and sliding only recovers, what, 1/4, maybe 1/2 with the delay now?

Choose anywhere for to run but derelict(crashes my video card).

 

Also I still want an explanation concerning your "you people just want god mode!" comments earlier.

Specify?

[Nagisawa]

The rusher problem needs to be fixed by fixing the enemies and missions and not by slowing down the player because player speed is relative. The rushers will still be faster if they built faster frames. The only difference stamina nerfs would make is &!$$ing everyone off.

The thing is, the 'Rusher Problem' is what DE wants.  With the short timed respawn rate, or the spawning of enemies from every where, you HAVE to rush through every match, unless you go in full team, all the time.  Which more or less means you cannot set this game, or play, Solo (And by play I mean Private and Invite Only and still play alone.)

 

So this is just confusing me.  Do they want to chase people away from the game?  Because unless you keep moving forward, and hope you don't get cornered, you're not going to survive long without rushing through the map.

 

And for the record, I HATE rushing.  I want to loot and see everything the maps have to offer.  But the spawn rate doesn't let me.

[G3m1n1]

...but endless community of rushers just wash good ideas away.

 

I feel you.

[Ghobe]

The thing is, the 'Rusher Problem' is what DE wants.  With the short timed respawn rate, or the spawning of enemies from every where, you HAVE to rush through every match, unless you go in full team, all the time.  Which more or less means you cannot set this game, or play, Solo (And by play I mean Private and Invite Only and still play alone.)

 

So this is just confusing me.  Do they want to chase people away from the game?  Because unless you keep moving forward, and hope you don't get cornered, you're not going to survive long without rushing through the map.

 

And for the record, I HATE rushing.  I want to loot and see everything the maps have to offer.  But the spawn rate doesn't let me.

What are you talking about...enemies don't respawn. They have a set number of waves for every room(this is of course excluding survival, defense, and mobile defense). Lately grineer missions are averaging between 250-300 enemies, which is a hell of a lot for mercury O.o

[Aure7]

The thing is, the 'Rusher Problem' is what DE wants.  With the short timed respawn rate, or the spawning of enemies from every where, you HAVE to rush through every match, unless you go in full team, all the time.  Which more or less means you cannot set this game, or play, Solo (And by play I mean Private and Invite Only and still play alone.)

 

So this is just confusing me.  Do they want to chase people away from the game?  Because unless you keep moving forward, and hope you don't get cornered, you're not going to survive long without rushing through the map.

 

And for the record, I HATE rushing.  I want to loot and see everything the maps have to offer.  But the spawn rate doesn't let me.

It's just that at the current state mission objectives are rushy and they encourage you to do so if you don't care about loot. They have to lower the % of rush type missions and just make rushing preferred strategy in only FEW gamemodes intentionally.

[Acos]

I'd just like to point out a few quotes...

You are not seriously trying to make a case by cherry picking a few quotes and then assuming that the huge, obvious, impenetrable amount of people complaining about the stamina nerf were ALL playing (slightly) slower warframes are you? It isn't as though the people in this thread weren't here when that discussion was exploding all over the forums; we're quite aware that the people complaining weren't all playing Nova/Loki/Ash/Volt?

Edited September 16, 2013 by Acos

[Ghobe]

You are not seriously trying to make a case by cherry picking a few quotes and then assuming that the huge, obvious, impenetrable amount of people complaining about the stamina nerf were ALL playing (slightly) slower warframes are you? It isn't as though the people in this thread weren't here when that discussion was exploding all over the forums; we're quite aware that the people complaining weren't all playing Nova/Loki/Ash/Volt?

I grabbed all those quotes from the first 4 pages from ONE thread before the hotfix change. Those posts were EVERYWHERE.

[bobafetthotmail]

Well, I played during the limited period where stamina was different, and yeah, I was a bit slower as the slides weren't enough to recharge stamina.

 

But I always thought the whole sprint-slide thing was an exploit, so yeah. Just make slides delay the reload of stamina.

 

Also, this game is supposed to be a team game, so you stay together and fight, and stop running around like crazy.

 

 

What I would certainly like is a cut down in mission lenght. No seriously, most of the time is spent just to traverse terrain. Decrease the number of tiles, keep the amount of spawns.