A Word From Sheldon

[rangeless]

You guys can all settle down. DE gets it and they are trying to fix these issues asap. A hotfix will be implemented today.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110474-an-apology/#entry1279739

 

Enjoy your mutagen mass and reward, Tenno! 

 

... and if you can all be so kind to thank the Warframe staff for listening to us!

[xGryphus]

I bet that handful of people who demanded an apology (unlike most of players that waited patiently and believed in DE) will bother to thank .

Edited September 20, 2013 by xGryphus

[WeissKreuz]

I'm listening....

[wgrant]

If they would have done this the first time it came up instead of saying "we fixed the tables" and "we'll buff the weapons" I think everyone would have understood. As it stands they blew us off and at best didn't look deep enough into the problems. So now days after giving us halfassed answers in the livestream they will have to fight to recover the trust/connection with many players.

Yes the community is a giant ball of rage, but a lot of times we do know what we are talking about. Look harder next time DE before saying "it's fixed" the first time.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I bet that handful of people who demanded an apology (unlike most of players that waited patiently and believed in DE) will bother to thank .

TBF, saying sorry =/= making it better/fixing their complaints.

[ss4chris]

TBF, saying sorry =/= making it better/fixing their complaints.

you're so ungrateful taking this apology for granted, disregarding it. whats wrong with you?

 

 you want everything on a silver platter or something?

[.Monarch]

TBF, saying sorry =/= making it better/fixing their complaints.

Nothing will fix all the T3 Exterminate keys I wasted on attempting on Dakra Blade.

 

Giving me 999999 Mutagen Mass will still not solve the issue where I won't be able to get my keys back. The two days I've spent restlessly grinding away in Void, those times. It doesn't matter what they do, they're not coming back. And I don't want to waste anymore money on DE, neither do I have the will to continue to grind defense, just in hopes to get a few T3 Exterminate, and throw them into oblivion once more.

 

This whole deal isn't just a kick in the teeth for me. It's more like running a 90k Marathon, then being told to do speak bunch of tongue twister. I'm exhausted. @(*()$ tired and exhausted from DE's mistakes.

[Luminati07]

I'm taking that apology with a kilogram of salt.

After everything that's been done over the months, it's hard to fully accept it immediately.

 

The damage is done. While an apology was a start, what reason is there for me to not take it as another smokescreen by DE?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Nothing will fix all the T3 Exterminate keys I wasted on attempting on Dakra Blade.

 

Giving me 999999 Mutagen Mass will still not solve the issue where I won't be able to get my keys back. The two days I've spent restlessly grinding away in Void, those times. It doesn't matter what they do, they're not coming back. And I don't want to waste anymore money on DE, neither do I have the will to continue to grind defense, just in hopes to get a few T3 Exterminate, and throw them into oblivion once more.

 

This whole deal isn't just a kick in the teeth for me. It's more like running a 90k Marathon, then being told to do speak bunch of tongue twister. I'm exhausted. @(*()$ tired and exhausted from DE's mistakes.

Nope I agree, those keys were wasted, and it really sucks, they messed up bug time, and saying "Hey guys, we're sorry" doesn't cut it. We need to see what happens now. Do they stick to their word and fix S#&$ without rushing new content? Do they playtest and fix some of the most @(*()$ obvious bugs ever before they push an update out?

 

 

I'm taking that apology with a kilogram of salt.

After everything that's been done over the months, it's hard to fully accept it immediately.

 

The damage is done. While an apology was a start, what reason is there for me to not take it as another smokescreen by DE?

Exactly. 100% this ^ They apologized, and that's a nice start. Now we gotta see some proof that DE is committed to fixing this.

Edited September 20, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Laecerelius]

Hopefully this leads to more communication from the developers.

[ZephRG]

Aside from the fact that the apology is too little too late to some, it's worth noting the things he DIDN'T apologize for as well:

 

- The fact that people had to datamine the drop rates to realize they were messed up to begin with (anyone else getting deja vu here?)

- The fact that the game currently rewards grind more than it rewards skill (want to win Warframe? Build an Acrid)

- The fact that they'd rather release new and better toys to buy/grind for rather than make your favorite weapons viable (Warframes being tiered is bad but weapons being tiered is good? I shoot dudes more than I use my ninja powers, so what makes Warframes so special?)

- The fact that the process of grinding isn't that fun or engaging to begin with (unless you like slaughtering masses of identical enemies who barely put up a fight)

 

Apologizing for some short-term mistakes doesn't really make me feel better about the game's long-term direction.

[xGryphus]

@Rain_Maker: you have my deepest sympathies however rushing content isn't a good idea for like 2 weeks after update, at least as long as the game is labelled beta. Maybe a ticket to support will bring some recompense.

You all seem to forget that this kind of game is a new experience for DE - they are still learning thus frequent changes of mind are inevitable. I unshakeable believe that they are trying their best. They actually listen to players' feedback and trying hard to meet our expectations, this however spoiled community. Truth to be told is that we, players, are also partially responsible for faulty content as many of us are forcing new content - every time a new update is announced there is an avalanche of threads demanding it ASAP.

Edited September 20, 2013 by xGryphus

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Aside from the fact that the apology is too little too late to some, it's worth noting the things he DIDN'T apologize for as well:

 

- The fact that people had to datamine the drop rates to realize they were messed up to begin with (anyone else getting deja vu here?)

- The fact that the game currently rewards grind more than it rewards skill (want to win Warframe? Build an Acrid)

- The fact that they'd rather release new and better toys to buy/grind for rather than make your favorite weapons viable (Warframes being tiered is bad but weapons being tiered is good? I shoot dudes more than I use my ninja powers, so what makes Warframes so special?)

- The fact that the process of grinding isn't that fun or engaging to begin with (unless you like slaughtering masses of identical enemies who barely put up a fight)

 

Apologizing for some short-term mistakes doesn't really make me feel better about the game's long-term direction.

+1, completely forgot about some of those (i.e. they said they'd release drop tables, but haven't.)

[ZephRG]

@Rain_Maker: you have my deepest sympathies however rushing content isn't a good idea for like 2 weeks after update, at least as long as the game is labelled beta. Maybe a ticket to support will bring some recompense.

 

You all seem to forget that this kind of game is a new experience for DE. I unshakeable believe that they are trying their best. They actually listen to players' feedback and trying hard to meet our expectations, this however spoiled community. Truth to be told is that we, players, are also partially responsible for faulty content as many of us are forcing new content - every time a new update is announced there is an avalanche of threads demanding it ASAP.

 

 

"Feedback" does not mean "licking DE's boots and telling them what a good job they're doing", it means "telling them how they can improve their game". If I didn't have at least some faith in them making their game better I wouldn't be here complaining, I would have simply quit playing Warframe.

 

+1, completely forgot about some of those (i.e. they said they'd release drop tables, but haven't.)

 

In retrospect I should bolded, underlined and highlighted the comment about deja vu. Literally this exact thing has happened once in the past (drop rates being messed up due to too many items in a single table, needing people to datamine the rates to even realize this was the case, DE being forced to apologize, etc.). Lack of transparency in drop rates is just one of many reoccurring problems that DE really needs to fix but has yet to.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ZephRG

[xGryphus]

"Feedback" does not mean "licking DE's boots and telling them what a good job they're doing", it means "telling them how they can improve their game". If I didn't have at least some faith in them making their game better I wouldn't be here complaining, I would have simply quit playing Warframe.

Feedback also should be constructive. Currently maybe one in ten threads can be described with this term - most people just yelling out baseless demands without even bothering to support them with some logical arguments. If you expect high standards - represent high standards yourself.

Edited September 20, 2013 by xGryphus

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Feedback also should be constructive. Currently maybe one in ten threads can be described with this term - most people just yelling out baseless demands without even bothering to support them with some logical arguments. If you expect high standards - represent high standards yourself.

Feedback doesn't always have to be constructive. Constructive feedback is considered "positive" feedback, while complaining is considered "negative" feedback, but both are equally valuable. It's not always the player's job to think of ways to fix everything.

[ZephRG]

Feedback also should be constructive. Currently maybe one in ten threads can be described with this term - most people just yelling out baseless demands without even bothering to support them with some logical arguments.

 

If that's the point that you're trying to get at, then I agree. People also don't seem to realize, however, that baseless praise is just as pointless/toxic as baseless criticism. I assumed you were simply trying to tell people not to criticize DE because they're trying their best, and I apologize if I was mistaken. I've run across enough people who seem to be afraid of pointing out something's flaws that I tend to assume it by default in places I probably shouldn't.

[ZephRG]

Feedback doesn't always have to be constructive. Constructive feedback is considered "positive" feedback, while complaining is considered "negative" feedback, but both are equally valuable. It's not always the player's job to think of ways to fix everything.

 

It doesn't always have to be constructive, but sometimes people complain about things that are healthy for the game's continued development (several frames losing their "I win" buttons needed to happen, even if it wasn't necessarily handled in the best way), and developers are (and honestly are right to be) more likely to listen to well-reasoned feedback from someone who explains why their suggestions will make the game better than people who simply don't like a thing for potentially selfish reasons (again, if they don't say why, then maybe they simply want the game to be poorly-designed in their favor. We don't exactly know, do we?).

[KvotheTheArcane1]

It doesn't always have to be constructive, but sometimes people complain about things that are healthy for the game's continued development (several frames losing their "I win" buttons needed to happen, even if it wasn't necessarily handled in the best way), and developers are (and honestly are right to be) more likely to listen to well-reasoned feedback from someone who explains why their suggestions will make the game better than people who simply don't like a thing for potentially selfish reasons (again, if they don't say why, then maybe they simply want the game to be poorly-designed in their favor. We don't exactly know, do we?).

Yeah, I agree, not all complaining is good obviously, but it can be just as important as constructive feedback (and even that can be bad, if it pushes the game in a way it shouldn't go, i.e. cover system in a TPS about fast movement)

[DaymareCelestia]

Literally this exact thing has happened once in the past (drop rates being messed up due to too many items in a single table, needing people to datamine the rates to even realize this was the case, DE being forced to apologize, etc.). Lack of transparency in drop rates is just one of many reoccurring problems that DE really needs to fix but has yet to.

This happened actually in....

defense maps (hope you like hellfire), void missions (receivers never received), and new void missions (latest). I miss my keys I used.

[Dracosaber]

Honestly, and I know this is going to cause rage, a lot of problems since Update 10 have been the community's fault, mainly with their lack of patience.

 

Let me explain with one example:

 

The update was big, adding a ton of stuff. I haven't played nearly as much as many people, yet I realized this probably meant something was going to go wrong. So I did the logical thing: not use any of my Void keys or build too many Derelict keys until stuff got fixed. I knew it would take a week or two to fix things, and I was right. One person here complained they wasted a ton of T3 Ext. keys trying to get Dakra because the drop tables were messed up. Your fault, not DE's. The drop tables being messed up is completely DE's fault, you wasting the keys isn't. That's on you. It's logic and common sense. 

 

The grind problem, yeah, that's on them, but they are continuously working on the game, so I'm hoping that will come through. The new Golem isn't even that much of a grind, at all, I did it, now it's going to be even less so. I even had to grind for some of the resources I needed. 

 

I understand that people that have been playing for hundreds of hours are getting tired, but you have to be patient. DE reacts to constructive criticism, but that criticism gets lost among all the rage and that fills the forums. That's the first that needs to go. Maybe then something can get done. They are already working on a new damage system, that's big, and has been asked for a lot. Yes, they make mistakes, but it's an Indie developer trying something new. Hold on, play something else for now if you're completely worn out, but don't give up yet. 

[ZephRG]

Honestly, and I know this is going to cause rage, a lot of problems since Update 10 have been the community's fault, mainly with their lack of patience.

 

Let me explain with one example:

 

The update was big, adding a ton of stuff. I haven't played nearly as much as many people, yet I realized this probably meant something was going to go wrong. So I did the logical thing: not use any of my Void keys or build too many Derelict keys until stuff got fixed. I knew it would take a week or two to fix things, and I was right. One person here complained they wasted a ton of T3 Ext. keys trying to get Dakra because the drop tables were messed up. Your fault, not DE's. The drop tables being messed up is completely DE's fault, you wasting the keys isn't. That's on you. It's logic and common sense. 

 

The grind problem, yeah, that's on them, but they are continuously working on the game, so I'm hoping that will come through. The new Golem isn't even that much of a grind, at all, I did it, now it's going to be even less so. I even had to grind for some of the resources I needed. 

 

I understand that people that have been playing for hundreds of hours are getting tired, but you have to be patient. DE reacts to constructive criticism, but that criticism gets lost among all the rage and that fills the forums. That's the first that needs to go. Maybe then something can get done. They are already working on a new damage system, that's big, and has been asked for a lot. Yes, they make mistakes, but it's an Indie developer trying something new. Hold on, play something else for now if you're completely worn out, but don't give up yet. 

 

I posted a bullet point list in the last page of underlying UI/design problems that U10 may have exacerbated, but have been in the game for a while now. Fixing the drop tables and crafting costs is a good thing, but these are all short-term fixes. Removing that one straw is not going to do much for that poor camel's back at this point.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ZephRG

[xGryphus]

Feedback doesn't always have to be constructive. Constructive feedback is considered "positive" feedback, while complaining is considered "negative" feedback, but both are equally valuable. It's not always the player's job to think of ways to fix everything.

Healthy feedback, especially negative, should always be constructive: if you see a flaw you should at least tell why you consider it a flaw - not necessary suggest a solution but don't be like this guy: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110501-forma-as-a-crafting-recourse/

 

If that's the point that you're trying to get at, then I agree. People also don't seem to realize, however, that baseless praise is just as pointless/toxic as baseless criticism. I assumed you were simply trying to tell people not to criticize DE because they're trying their best, and I apologize if I was mistaken. I've run across enough people who seem to be afraid of pointing out something's flaws that I tend to assume it by default in places I probably shouldn't.

I guess we both went wild a bit so no hard feelings. I admit - hard to disagree that DE made a mistake (a big one to be honest) but they are only humans trying to make their long lost dream come true (check Warframe and Dark Sector history if you don't know what I mean). They created some awesome single player games but they lack experience - that's a thing they know and by labelling the game beta they asked us for help - we should be all aware of this.

Edited September 20, 2013 by xGryphus

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Healthy feedback, especially negative, should always be constructive: if you see a flaw you should at least tell why you consider it a flaw - not necessary suggest a solution but don't be like this guy: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110501-forma-as-a-crafting-recourse/

Oh yeah, I agree. If you're feedback isn't constructive (as in offering solutions), it should atleast explain why it you're unhappy with it.

[xGryphus]

The cost of the Djinn needs to be reduced to one (1) forma, not two (2). I haven't forma'ed a single sentinel or sentinel weapon, and I have no intention of doing so in the near future, as I haven't had a reason to. So, the fact that you expect us to pay/use 2-3 forma on a sentinel that we might not even ultimately enjoy seems more than just a tad egregious.

This is a rapid judgement - you have no idea how common will Forma become after this fix. You have access to 3 more sentinels - 2 Forma is quite a fair price for pure curiosity.