Ember Reworking

[NuclearCoffeePot]

Ember...is...uuuhhhhh, well ya know. S#&$. So me and a friend thought up two different concepts for a rework of her that i will share here. Please deliver your feedback so we can improve these ideas.

 

passive-Heat meter- Ember generates heat when she uses ability or is on fire. at 0 heat she gains great energy regen and at max heat she gains significant dmg reduction- The idea is to make ember play likean mmo mage- Nuke enemies- mana cooldown where you are vulnerable

1-Fireball- Good but change its aoe mechanics so you can light yourself on fire more easily

2-Cooldown-Expend half heat to heal yourself-Adds a survivability aspect

3-Ash cloud- Extinguish heat(half) and cancel abilities to create an ash cloud that blinds enemies- the more heat consumed the longer the blind

4-World on fire- Works as it does now without the range reduction- THe dmg ramps up over time but teh cost increases, forcing you to enter a cooldown period to regenerate.

 

2nd concept

passive-Burns- Heat procs on embers enemies can stack, dealing increased burns based on how many times it is reaplied- at first degree burns its just normal fire- at 2nd degree enemy health is reduced- at 3rd degree they lose a large chunk of their armor-

1-Heat wave- Sends a wave of fire moving forward in a set duration expanding in size but losing dmg as it does so- 

2-Primed-Prime's enemies in range- when they get set on fire it causes a detonation that triggers a second fire proc and knocks them and others down

3-Embers- Fills the air with embers- Enemies that enter the area will be set on fire and when ember and allies are in the zone they gain heat dmg

4-World on fire- Function similar to how it does now- However because with this rework the idea is to stack your abilities to increase dmg if it were a drain she wouldnt have the energy to make it last, therefore it is now duration based

[Blexander]

1st concept:

-Passive: I don't think it's smart giving DPS frames a way to refund their own energy for free, it makes them unbalanced. DR is an ok idea to have at max gauge value. As for the other part, adding cooldowns for abilities is bad because Warframe isn't an MMORPG and doesn't function as one. A heat meter is a welcome change, seeing as how Gauss' kit will work upon release.
-Fireball: As a beginning skill it isn't bad, it's just crippled by Heat Damage being weak. As for the applying Heat DoT on yourself part... no. I don't want to see her future kit with anything that has a self-damaging aspect.
-Cooldown: Giving Ember a self-healing skill isn't a bad idea, but giving up Accelarant is not a fair/good trade-off. Changing Accelarant can lead to her kit being weaker.
-Ash Cloud: I don't really know how to criticize this ability. Sure, AoE CC is pretty good, maybe make enemies open to finishers. Canceling abilities is a very weird mechanic, and not in a good way. Has potential to be good CC, but it's very confusing currently. It'd much rather see Accelarant have its stun duration based, but ok.
-WoF: Old and boring ability. Needs to be changed fully. If it didn't have range reduction, but kept the damage and cost increase, it would an ok ability at best. A more dynamic skill is in order. Something to fit the glass-cannon description DE themselves gave her.

 

2nd concept:

Passive: This is probably the freshest concept for her passive I've seen in months. Making her Heat procs on enemies have additional effects depending on the stack amount is very "cool". Having it remove a "large" chunk of armor is, however, not advisable to have, since passives aren't supposed to have a huge impact, so it just needs some. I'm also not sure on the "reducing HP" part, maybe have it do a burst of damage upon reaching the 2nd stage. As for the 1st part of the passive

5 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

Heat procs on embers enemies can stack

it's what Heat DoTs should actually work like, with the addition of being replaced by stronger Heat procs, since Heat DoTs are currently the only damage type that doesn't do that. 
Heat Wave: There are a lot of factors that make or break this ability. Does it go through enemies? Is it one-handed casting? How does it interact with her kit (heat proc % or guarantee)? Does it go through walls?
Primed: Nova already has a priming ability, consider renaming. Basically, it just works like Accelarant and Firequake put together with an exploding AoE CC, minus a Heat damage multiplier.
Embers: I'm intrigued by the buffing capabilities of this ability, it could change her from CC/DPS frame into a sort of trifecta of CC/DPS/Buffer frame (which she currently can be built as, but to minimal effect, because she's sub-par in all 3 roles as of now). Having the ability be a stationary effect is bad (if the base range/scaling isn't large). Having it be a zone following Ember fixes that issue (naturally, depending if it's duration based or a toggle skill). Also, consider renaming.
WoF: WoF was once duration based, and it was awful. Current WoF fits this kit very well, considering the rate it procs Heat DoTs at 200% Strength, it can make her a decent DPS. However, my criticism of WoF still stands. It's a remnant of the old days of Warframe.

 

CONCLUSION:

1st concept: It's a slight mess of decent ideas mixed in with gimmicks that wouldn't work. A gauge that gets fuller the more abilities Ember uses is a decent idea, but the kit advertised gives little capability, or incentive, to fill it up:

• Her abilities have a cooldown, so spamming them isn't possible
• There is little reason to spam abilities, because Extinguish's CC increases in duration based on % of the gauge spent
• There is no reliable way of filling it up, aside from setting yourself on fire (which is bad, and shouldn't be required), or using WoF

You tried to pull Ember out of the DPS role into a more tanky, self-sustaining one. The ideas are very much unique, but as I said, they wouldn't work in a game like Warframe, making the kit appear unfocused. Also, it doesn't turn Ember into a nuke, but more a CC/Buffer frame.

2nd concept: A set of decent ideas that can be greatly expanded upon. I will admit to a bias, because Embers is a type of ability that I imagined Ember having as an alternative to WoF, but having a different usage and function. There isn't an easy way to sum up criticisms for the core mechanic of the kit, because the function/appeal is spread across all her skills (it's not all funneled into a single skill/effect), so it's hard finding a scenario where the kit fails, aside from "the passive works only on Heat procs from her skills and not weapons". I guess I could say it doesn't stray from the design of Ember all too much, since there isn't anything new like a healing skill, or DR. It focuses on turning Ember into a much better DPS, while giving adding to her existing CC capabilities and some good team buffing. I can't say it's a unique take on Ember (to me, it mostly is), but it's very interesting.

Overall: My criticism of WoF stands, most would agree with it. A mixture of the 2 concepts could be an interesting idea. Heat damage requires a rework to work like other DoT statuses, so that should be kept in mind when reworking Ember.

Keep up the good work.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

19 minutes ago, Blexander said:

adding cooldowns for abilities is bad because Warframe isn't an MMORPG and doesn't function as one

I didn't say give abilities cooldown- i set the point is to make it like mages in mmo's they can deal a ton of dmg but to balance it they have to wait for a period in order to re use- Embers main dmg with the 1st concept is with her 4 which will cost a lot of energy and since its a drain she needs to be able to regenerate her energy back when she ends the ability-my next comment will tie into this

 

22 minutes ago, Blexander said:

I don't really know how to criticize this ability. Sure, AoE CC is pretty good, maybe make enemies open to finishers. Canceling abilities is a very weird mechanic, and not in a good way. Has potential to be good CC, but it's very confusing currently. It'd much rather see Accelarant have its stun duration based, but ok.

The main idea behind this ability is not as a core cc. THe ability drains all heat and will cancel world on fire. The purpose of this is to quickly bring down your heat gage in order to start regening while the blind covers for your sudden lack of defenses

Also quick disclaimer im not trying to bash you if thats how it sounds. Im grateful for your criticism and will be taking it into account when i update the concepts

24 minutes ago, Blexander said:

This is probably the freshest concept for her passive I've seen in months. Making her Heat procs on enemies have additional effects depending on the stack amount is very "cool". Having it remove a "large" chunk of armor is, however, not advisable to have, since passives aren't supposed to have a huge impact, so it just needs some. I'm also not sure on the "reducing HP" part, maybe have it do a burst of damage upon reaching the 2nd stage. As for the 1st part of the passive

6 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

Heat procs on embers enemies can stack

it's what Heat DoTs should actually work like, with the addition of being replaced by stronger Heat procs, since Heat DoTs are currently the only damage type that doesn't do that. 

So time to talk about this- The armor reduction is mainly there because currently embers kit has a decided lack of being able to kill anything heavily armored- all it does is burn the trash mobs- THats the point of that- As for the health reduction i needed a filler- The stacking idea i talked about is not stacking the heat procs in the way your thinking. The idea is based off of degrees of burn- Every time ember applies a heat proc from her abilities onto enmies it creates a stack(a degree burn) the higher the degree, the easier it becomes to kill them.-As you stated earlier fire damage is just bad- the passive for ember is to make up for that. After all you can't just change the damage type she is the fire frame- So i gave her these stacking degree burns which give effects like other elemental damage

 

27 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Heat Wave: There are a lot of factors that make or break this ability. Does it go through enemies? Is it one-handed casting? How does it interact with her kit (heat proc % or guarantee)? Does it go through walls?

Heat wave is one handed-It goes through enemies not walls- Its meant to just be a basic ability to replace fireball- I don't like the idea of setting myself on fire so I made it a wave that effects enemies- When ember is at a low level and not maxed players could spam this to build up degree's on a handful of enemies since it wouldnt cost much

29 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Primed: Nova already has a priming ability, consider renaming. Basically, it just works like Accelarant and Firequake put together with an exploding AoE CC, minus a Heat damage multiplier

Yep

29 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Embers: I'm intrigued by the buffing capabilities of this ability, it could change her from CC/DPS frame into a sort of trifecta of CC/DPS/Buffer frame (which she currently can be built as, but to minimal effect, because she's sub-par in all 3 roles as of now). Having the ability be a stationary effect is bad (if the base range/scaling isn't large). Having it be a zone following Ember fixes that issue (naturally, depending if it's duration based or a toggle skill). Also, consider renaming.

Yep Yep and Yep- Thats the point and i will rename it(eventually)

30 minutes ago, Blexander said:

oF was once duration based, and it was awful. Current WoF fits this kit very well, considering the rate it procs Heat DoTs at 200% Strength, it can make her a decent DPS. However, my criticism of WoF still stands. It's a remnant of the old days of Warframe.

Aye it is- Though the shrinking radius was only added recently-  I wanted to keep it to some extent because it fit well with my other ideas though if you want hears another concept that just came to me

 

-I once thought up a change for zephyr 4 that would make it a singular expanding wall of swirling wind- a hurricane- I think this could be applied-

Firestorm- From embers current location she releases a swirling circle of fire that expands outwards(kind of like an arson wave) though at its maximum range it stops- all enemies that enter it take periodic heat damage

[Blexander]

12 minutes ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

I didn't say give abilities cooldown- i set the point is to make it like mages in mmo's they can deal a ton of dmg but to balance it they have to wait for a period in order to re use

That's literally what a cooldown is, my dude.

16 minutes ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

The main idea behind this ability is not as a core cc. THe ability drains all heat and will cancel world on fire. The purpose of this is to quickly bring down your heat gage in order to start regening while the blind covers for your sudden lack of defenses

An ability shouldn't need to be cast to turn off another ability. As for the gauge, why not just have the gauge be spent on cast after a certain % to give added effects on skills, like 25% to buff the 1st skill, 50% to buff the 2nd one, etc.? And as I stated, giving energy regen to a DPS, or any warframe for that matter, for free isn't a good idea. It's unbalanced. Take Saryn as an example. You have massive damage in a huge area, plus you're tanky, BUT, you have issues with energy which you solve with Rage. Even Octavia needs to use skills to give everybody energy regen, but she's a buffer, plus it's duration based, so it's not technically unending. With this passive, Ember can sit for a minute or 2 and have full energy at the start of a mission, completely for free. You already gave her a heal, and DR.

12 minutes ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

The stacking idea i talked about is not stacking the heat procs in the way your thinking. The idea is based off of degrees of burn- Every time ember applies a heat proc from her abilities onto enmies it creates a stack(a degree burn) the higher the degree, the easier it becomes to kill them

I know what you meant by the ability. What I was saying is that instead of having just Ember's, all heat DoTs should be stackable. The ability stays the same, stacks of heat DoTs cause added effects, it's just Heat damage being better.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

13 minutes ago, Blexander said:

That's literally what a cooldown is, my dude

Aye im stupid