Equinox: Why is this an augment?

[Teridax68]

Slightly dubious comparisons with EA aside, I agree fully that Energy Transfer is one of those augments that has no business being an augment, and should be baseline. It is incredibly stupid for Equinox to be a stance dancer frame, yet also be actively discouraged from changing forms due to the loss of accumulated power on some of her abilities, and that I think is one of the main reasons why she doesn't feel nearly as great as she could be. She's by no means the only frame with band-aid augments that should be a part of the base kit, but Energy Transfer especially I think exemplifies what's currently wrong with her. She needs a greater degree of work overall, imo, but at the very least she shouldn't lose power when switching forms.

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Slightly dubious comparisons with EA aside, I agree fully that Energy Transfer is one of those augments that has no business being an augment, and should be baseline. It is incredibly stupid for Equinox to be a stance dancer frame, yet also be actively discouraged from changing forms due to the loss of accumulated power on some of her abilities, and that I think is one of the main reasons why she doesn't feel nearly as great as she could be. She's by no means the only frame with band-aid augments that should be a part of the base kit, but Energy Transfer especially I think exemplifies what's currently wrong with her. She needs a greater degree of work overall, imo, but at the very least she shouldn't lose power when switching forms.

Her 4 augment issue is obvious, as we have stated, but the only other issue with her that stands out as "this is a problem" for her is that her 2 augment doesn't seem to spread reliably. I don't know if it's just the base range being too low or if it's a mechanical issue, but the augment overall is very unreliable. I'm not sure there's much more work to be done on her, though. The rest of her kits seems fine to me.

[Teridax68]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

I'm not sure there's much more work to be done on her, though. The rest of her kits seems fine to me.

Off the top of my head:

• Her 1 is a button whose sole real purpose is to let Equinox transform, and the Energy cost is already a disincentive, which isn't really made up by the tacked-on buffs.
• Rage is generally undesirable to use, as it's a poor attempt at a Speeva's Molecular Prime without any of the traits that make the latter good.
• Her 3 is a major reason why she is discouraged from transforming, as it's a persistent aura that gets turned off when she switches forms, and a ramping bonus via the augment that asks Equinox to remain in her current form even more.
• Mend is a generally weak ability that is outdone in every respect by Trinity's Blessing. Having to cast and hold an Energy-draining toggle just to charge up a life-saving heal is not good design.
• Maim's Slash aura is abusive to an even worse degree than Ember's World on Fire, as it is longer-ranged and scales better thanks to its true damage.

Effectively, Equinox has this promise of offering eight distinct and interesting abilities, but only really has 6, and among those only about 3-4 are worth using (and even then, not on the same build, so you'll be using only 2 abilities at a time at most). She's pushed to constantly stay in the same form through many more means than just her 4, and coupled with a bunch of dead abilities this means most of her kit is put to waste, to the extent where she uses fewer abilities than many regular frames.

[Morticoccus]

On 2019-09-22 at 12:46 AM, Alcatraz said:

I'm not brain dead you know? I made that comment going off of the basis of "Rhino player," me being one such. Surely I would know a thing or two about the frame I play.

 While I do have those augs, I have a build for them, I just rarely use them. i.e, I use a different build than that one.

 

Rhino: "Are you brain dead? I'm not going in there with two enemies!"

"...I need three, for my augment."

 

XD

[FrostDragoon]

I don't mind her 1. She still gets "six" abilities beside that one. The buffs are neat, but not the core function. The energy cost shouldn't be a big deal because you should be running efficiency on her anyway, there are tons of ways to get energy, and I really don't like the idea of attaching it to her dodge roll (like Limbo).

Rage isn't the best buff of its kind, but I find it good enough.

Agree with you about her 3, and the fix for that would be the same as making her 4 augment a core part of her kit--stop turning these abilities off when she transforms.

Mend should really be reworked, now that you mention it, so that the healing it would stack is instead immediately divided up and applied to allies within range. Then it would be a worthwhile toggle.

If Maim wasn't as good as it is, Equinox would be lower than Vauban tier in community perception. The comparison to Ember's 4 is kind of bad, imo, because Ember was deliberately nerfed on the basis of extremely dubious logic sometime ago (a year?), so Ember is now also in need of buffs (or rework, but would prefer buffs).

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

I don't mind her 1. She still gets "six" abilities beside that one. The buffs are neat, but not the core function. The energy cost shouldn't be a big deal because you should be running efficiency on her anyway, there are tons of ways to get energy, and I really don't like the idea of attaching it to her dodge roll (like Limbo).

It's true that the Energy cost isn't massive, and I can agree that tying the transform to dodge rolling would be a bad idea, as rolling has a specific purpose already and doesn't need to be mixed with an entirely separate function. Nonetheless, the transformation mechanic isn't really organic, and while Equinox does get six abilities in total, that still does limit the potential of both kits. I also agree that the buffs aren't the core function, but that's also the main reason why they feel tacked-on. Personally, I'd either find another way to have her transform automatically (e.g. after every ability cast, so that she form-switches no matter what), or change Metamorphosis so that instead of merely providing buffs, each active would produce some basic, generally useful effect while also transforming Equinox, e.g. a simple heal or burst of damage.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Agree with you about her 3, and the fix for that would be the same as making her 4 augment a core part of her kit--stop turning these abilities off when she transforms.

Agreed, and the same could be said for the build-up, though I'd still say that the auras are a problem, because switching forms completely changes their purpose, which makes the transition awkward. By contrast, if she instead had some kind of fire-and-forget radial ability, she'd have no reason not to transform after casting.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Mend should really be reworked, now that you mention it, so that the healing it would stack is instead immediately divided up and applied to allies within range. Then it would be a worthwhile toggle.

A persistent healing aura would certainly work better, though that would basically make it a version of Oberon's Renewal that'd restore shields in exchange for being more conditional. I'd say it might be better to give her healing on a more immediately available ability, if she needs it, and instead try to make her 4 provide some more distinct protective utility, e.g. a radial damage buffer or the like.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

If Maim wasn't as good as it is, Equinox would be lower than Vauban tier in community perception.

If this were the case, then this would be all the more reason to rework Equinox. It is never good for a frame's entire viability to hinge on a single ability, and when that happens that's usually a sign that the rest of their kit isn't that good (which means that "good enough" doesn't quite cut it in that situation).

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

The comparison to Ember's 4 is kind of bad, imo, because Ember was deliberately nerfed on the basis of extremely dubious logic sometime ago (a year?), so Ember is now also in need of buffs (or rework, but would prefer buffs).

I don't quite agree: for sure, Ember was nerfed horribly, and is in dire need of buffs, but while her nerfs were wrong, the reason to nerf her clearing power isn't. It's not healthy when a frame gets to kill enemies through walls on-demand, because that turns the game into a walking simulator for everyone else, a problem that can be seen with Equinox, but also Saryn and Mesa in many cases. Ember was by no means the worst perpetrator, which does make the decision to nerf her first dubious, but she nonetheless has that bit of unhealthy design (which, ironically, was not addressed, just nerfed, so nothing was fixed in the end). It thus would make sense to take that out of Equinox, especially if it means making the entirety of her kit viable, and not just a small handful of her abilities.

[FrostDragoon]

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Ember was by no means the worst perpetrator, which does make the decision to nerf her first dubious, but she nonetheless has that bit of unhealthy design (which, ironically, was not addressed, just nerfed, so nothing was fixed in the end). It thus would make sense to take that out of Equinox, especially if it means making the entirety of her kit viable, and not just a small handful of her abilities.

That's just the thing. The "logic" used to justify her nerf didn't even result in fixing the "problem." I don't think WoF or Maim are bad abilities, nor unhealthy for the game. The problem is in implementation. Ember's only remained useful to about enemy level 40-50ish and had relatively small range, unless you sacrifice her power strength, which meant the damage fell off around 30ish. Maim's problem is that it does a ton of damage and has huge range while being on a frame that is inherently more useful anyway. If anything, I would buff Ember's and nerf Maim a bit--assuming the other fixes to Equinox occur.

However...

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If this were the case, then this would be all the more reason to rework Equinox. It is never good for a frame's entire viability to hinge on a single ability, and when that happens that's usually a sign that the rest of their kit isn't that good (which means that "good enough" doesn't quite cut it in that situation).

I think you misunderstand what I said. The reason just nerfing Maim would drop her so hard in "tier lists" is because she still has other issues. When considered with the rest of her kit, Maim actually makes her pretty decent. It wasn't as if I was talking about her as a "press 4 to win" frame in any sense.

Edited September 23, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

That's just the thing. The "logic" used to justify her nerf didn't even result in fixing the "problem." I don't think WoF or Maim are bad abilities, nor unhealthy for the game. The problem is in implementation. Ember's only remained useful to about enemy level 40-50ish and had relatively small range, unless you sacrifice her power strength, which meant the damage fell off around 30ish. Maim's problem is that it does a ton of damage and has huge range while being on a frame that is inherently more useful anyway. If anything, I would buff Ember's and nerf Maim a bit--assuming the other fixes to Equinox occur.

I can agree that the changes to Ember didn't fix the problem, but I also think we're talking about different facets of design here: it is not enough for an ability to simply be useful; it also needs to be healthy in the larger context of the game, i.e. conducive to fun and interactive gameplay for all involved. Because persistent AoE damage through walls cuts out that interaction by having the player kill enemies before they can do anything, and also killing enemies often before their allies can get to them, that kind of gameplay does not satisfy those criteria, which is why you get complaints about those kinds of abilities. Thus, while Equinox's Maim aura may be useful, it is not healthy, which is why it should change by the same token as Ember's WoF (though actually change, not get nerfed).

13 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

However...

I thin you misunderstand what I said. The reason just nerfing Maim would drop her so hard in "tier lists" is because she still has other issues. When considered with the rest of her kit, Maim actually makes her pretty decent. It wasn't as if I was talking about her as a "press 4 to win" frame in any sense.

But I'm not either; we are in fact saying the exact same thing. My entire point is that if Maim is the only thing making her kit qualify as good, that implies the rest of her kit is in fact in bad shape, and thus in need of improvement. This is why I am suggesting she needs a more comprehensive rework than just one to her 4's accumulated power, because she clearly doesn't have a terribly amazing kit outside of a select few powerful abilities.

[FrostDragoon]

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because persistent AoE damage through walls cuts out that interaction by having the player kill enemies before they can do anything, and also killing enemies often before their allies can get to them, that kind of gameplay does not satisfy those criteria, which is why you get complaints about those kinds of abilities.

I don't think that is good enough criteria for calling it unhealthy for the game--let alone targeting these frames with nerfs/reworks as a result. A Volt with high Str/Dur and an Ignis with Combustion Beam can easily achieve a similar effect: they wipe out the whole level before anyone else gets to play. It's just part of how Warframe is. When certain kinds of cheese exist in the game, that stops being a good argument for ruining certain frames, especially when even less interactive things exist in the game (Limbo's 4, for example).

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

My entire point is that if Maim is the only thing making her kit qualify as good, that implies the rest of her kit is in fact in bad shape, and thus in need of improvement.

That isn't the point I was making. I was saying that Maim's inclusion in the totality of her kit is crucial to it being considered good. If Maim was the only thing she had that was useful, she would be considered a mediocre (if not bad) frame.

[Teridax68]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

I don't think that is good enough criteria for calling it unhealthy for the game--let alone targeting these frames with nerfs/reworks as a result. A Volt with high Str/Dur and an Ignis with Combustion Beam can easily achieve a similar effect: they wipe out the whole level before anyone else gets to play. It's just part of how Warframe is. When certain kinds of cheese exist in the game, that stops being a good argument for ruining certain frames, especially when even less interactive things exist in the game (Limbo's 4, for example).

But you are simply listing more examples of unhealthy frames here, so I fail to see where the contradiction lies. If a particular build leaves no room for others to play in a multiplayer game, that is not good, period.

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

That isn't the point I was making. I was saying that Maim's inclusion in the totality of her kit is crucial to it being considered good. If Maim was the only thing she had that was useful, she would be considered a mediocre (if not bad) frame.

But how does it factor into the rest of her kit, then? Maim builds don't use the rest of her abilities, at most they'll use Provoke if they can spare the Energy and that's it. I myself pointed out that she has some other good abilities, but in a 6-ability kit, that is not good enough. It feels like we're beating around the bush here, with the central point being that while Equinox's Maim is strong (if unhealthy), the rest of her kit isn't altogether amazing, so she could use a more comprehensive rework.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But you are simply listing more examples of unhealthy frames here, so I fail to see where the contradiction lies. If a particular build leaves no room for others to play in a multiplayer game, that is not good, period.

Once again, you missed the point. I honestly can't tell if it's deliberate, but I hope not. You can't argue that Volt is an "unhealthy" frame by any stretch, so the example was to highlight that there are interactions in the game that can create what you consider unhealthy gameplay. In this case, Volt's speed lets him get from A to B before anyone else while the Ignis aoe + Beam procs screen wipe everything in seconds before the other players catch up. Alternatively, you could talk about Vauban's Vortex + any aoe weapon on a Defense mission leaving very little for the rest of the squad to do.

These things are just part of Warframe. Whether you consider them "unhealthy" or not is a subjective value judgment--and one I disagree with. Sure, it may not be real fun to have someone in the squad who is doing stuff like that, but you could say the same of the stupid Laming Strike spin2win nonsense, yet DE is unlikely to ever do anything about it.

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But how does it factor into the rest of her kit, then? Maim builds don't use the rest of her abilities, at most they'll use Provoke if they can spare the Energy and that's it. I myself pointed out that she has some other good abilities, but in a 6-ability kit, that is not good enough. It feels like we're beating around the bush here, with the central point being that while Equinox's Maim is strong (if unhealthy), the rest of her kit isn't altogether amazing, so she could use a more comprehensive rework.

Again we disagree. I don't think her kit is bad, even without Maim, but the issues we discussed earlier keep her from being what she could/should be in terms of gameplay quality. Building solely around Maim is like building solely around Rhino's Iron Skin--you can get a lot of effect by doing so, but you sacrifice most of your frame at the same time. However, I wouldn't then conclude that Rhino needs his 2 reworked because being nigh unkillable is "unhealthy"--a label which is easy to arbitrarily apply with even the least reasonable justification--nor would I argue that the rest of his kit is bad because you could build him that way.

Many frames have trade-offs in how you build them. Focus on one or two things and you might have to sacrifice the usefulness of one or two others. Gauss is a good example here. Most people probably do high Duration builds, maybe some moderate amount of Eff/Range. However, he could be built around his 3 if you focus on Str/Range and moderate duration instead while sacrificing Eff. Is this the most "ideal" build? Hell no, but it could be fun and you can solo low to mid tier Interceptions with it if you're nimble/aware enough.

The difference with Equinox, imo, is that switching forms is supposedly encouraged by giving you access to 6 abilities, but is mechanically punished through those points we discussed earlier. I honestly think Maim is fine as is. What she needs are QoL changes and bug fixes more than anything. After that, see where she stands and reevaluate whether nerfs/buffs are appropriate.

[Teridax68]

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Once again, you missed the point. I honestly can't tell if it's deliberate, but I hope not. You can't argue that Volt is an "unhealthy" frame by any stretch, so the example was to highlight that there are interactions in the game that can create what you consider unhealthy gameplay. In this case, Volt's speed lets him get from A to B before anyone else while the Ignis aoe + Beam procs screen wipe everything in seconds before the other players catch up. Alternatively, you could talk about Vauban's Vortex + any aoe weapon on a Defense mission leaving very little for the rest of the squad to do.

These things are just part of Warframe. Whether you consider them "unhealthy" or not is a subjective value judgment--and one I disagree with. Sure, it may not be real fun to have someone in the squad who is doing stuff like that, but you could say the same of the stupid Laming Strike spin2win nonsense, yet DE is unlikely to ever do anything about it.

Again, it is you who are missing the point here. Just because Warframe has plenty of abuse cases does not mean those abuse cases should never be addressed. Fortunately, Volt himself isn't generally abusive, because his Speed bonus applies to allies and isn't especially maneuverable in tight spaces, but in the case of persistent radial nukes like Ember's WoF, Equinox's Maim, Saryn's Spores, and so on, there is in fact plenty of evidence that this is negative to gameplay, as noted by many other player complaints. I am therefore not arguing purely from my own subjective opinion here, I am basing my reasoning on existing evidence, whereas it is you who are subjectively dismissing the problem at hand because you personally don't see the issue.

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Again we disagree. I don't think her kit is bad, even without Maim, but the issues we discussed earlier keep her from being what she could/should be in terms of gameplay quality. Building solely around Maim is like building solely around Rhino's Iron Skin--you can get a lot of effect by doing so, but you sacrifice most of your frame at the same time. However, I wouldn't then conclude that Rhino needs his 2 reworked because being nigh unkillable is "unhealthy"--a label which is easy to arbitrarily apply with even the least reasonable justification--nor would I argue that the rest of his kit is bad because you could build him that way.

But that reasoning makes no sense -- Rhino has many more builds besides Iron Skin, which is why he's generally considered a good frame. All of his abilities are useful, and when going for a Stomp or Roar build, you will in fact find a use for more than just one ability. That is not the case with Maim, as not only is the only other build for Equinox reliant on Rest, in both cases the build rely exclusively on one, at most two abilities. Moreover, there is an inconsistency here: if Equinox's kit outside of Maim isn't bad, then why would changing Maim make her descend to Vauban tier? Either the rest of her abilities are good or they aren't, you can't argue both at the same time.

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Many frames have trade-offs in how you build them. Focus on one or two things and you might have to sacrifice the usefulness of one or two others. Gauss is a good example here. Most people probably do high Duration builds, maybe some moderate amount of Eff/Range. However, he could be built around his 3 if you focus on Str/Range and moderate duration instead while sacrificing Eff. Is this the most "ideal" build? Hell no, but it could be fun and you can solo low to mid tier Interceptions with it if you're nimble/aware enough.

I fail to see which part of the conversation this relates to, as I am not talking about tradeoffs, let alone complaining about them. I think it's fine for a frame to trade off power in some aspects in order to benefit from others; I just don't think it's good when a frame with a vast ability set is reduced to using only a tiny subset in a whole mission. Gauss has a use for at least three of his abilities at all times, and so does a frame like Wukong, or Nezha, even if they can build off of different aspects of their kit. By contrast, Sleep Equinox uses one (1) out of her 6 abilities, and Maim Equinox uses at most two, with neither build being encouraged to shift forms.

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

The difference with Equinox, imo, is that switching forms is supposedly encouraged by giving you access to 6 abilities, but is mechanically punished through those points we discussed earlier. I honestly think Maim is fine as is. What she needs are QoL changes and bug fixes more than anything. After that, see where she stands and reevaluate whether nerfs/buffs are appropriate.

But again, removing the punishment isn't enough, you have to actually encourage Equinox to shapeshift, as currently the problem isn't simply the disincentives, but the lack of incentives. If Equinox can just toggle on an ability and play the entire mission on autopilot, what reason does she have to use the rest of her kit? Worth mentioning as well is that Maim's Slash aura anti-synergizes with Rest's sleep, as it wakes enemies up prematurely, meaning that a DoT really isn't what Equinox needs in her kit. The burst active on her 4 I think is fine, and in fact should be built upon, my issue here is simply with the persistent aura.

[FrostDragoon]

It feels like you're just arguing to argue at this point, because you're trying to piece apart what I said instead of seeing how they are all part of a cohesive viewpoint. As long as that's the case, you won't understand where I'm coming from and the rest is just noise. Re-read what I wrote and see if you can't understand why you aren't even arguing against my points because you're not even acknowledging/understanding what I am saying. Most of yours is just your bias against Maim, and it seems to blind you from seeing anything else we're talking about.

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

if Equinox's kit outside of Maim isn't bad, then why would changing Maim make her descend to Vauban tier? Either the rest of her abilities are good or they aren't, you can't argue both at the same time.

This is a perfect example, because I already answered that.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

That isn't the point I was making. I was saying that Maim's inclusion in the totality of her kit is crucial to it being considered good. If Maim was the only thing she had that was useful, she would be considered a mediocre (if not bad) frame.

The problem for you is that you're so convinced that she only has 2 builds that you only see her strengths/weaknesses in the context of the over-limiting nature of those two builds--just as the Rhino and Gauss examples I provided would also do.

[Teridax68]

38 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It feels like you're just arguing to argue at this point, because you're trying to piece apart what I said instead of seeing how they are all part of a cohesive viewpoint. As long as that's the case, you won't understand where I'm coming from and the rest is just noise. Re-read what I wrote and see if you can't understand why you aren't even arguing against my points because you're not even acknowledging/understanding what I am saying. Most of yours is just your bias against Maim, and it seems to blind you from seeing anything else we're talking about.

You seem to have a running trend of conflating disagreement on your opinions with a failure to understand them. Not only have I understood your points just fine, that is in fact why I have addressed them in detail (and, once again, you can't have your cake and eat it too by complaining about both me both failing to pay attention and me paying too much attention). Moreover, it is you who have in fact failed to read what I have actually had to say, and are currently instead trying to dismiss valid criticism as "bias". Ultimately, one of the biggest problems with your argumentation here is that it is self-contradictory and unsupported by anything but your own opinions, and the main obstacle at the moment is that you find your every word to be so self-evidently true that anyone who disagrees must be either stupid or malicious (or both). Considering how this rather poor attitude has cost you a thread already, you would be wise to reevaluate your style. 

Quote

This is a perfect example, because I already answered that.

... where? I am well aware you believe Maim has some special interaction with the rest of Equinox's kit, but that is in fact precisely what I've asked you to justify a post before, to which your response was to dodge the point entirely and instead pivot onto an example of a build that had strictly nothing to do with the matter at hand. Tell me: why is Maim's aura in its current form so important for the rest of Equinox's kit to function? What are the synergies? Because as I pointed out already, Maim's bleed aura anti-synergizes with her other abilities more than anything.

Quote

The problem for you is that you're so convinced that she only has 2 builds that you only see her strengths/weaknesses in the context of the over-limiting nature of those two builds--just as the Rhino and Gauss examples I provided would also do.

Then by all means, enlighten me on the other common builds used on Equinox, and what they do to encourage more comprehensive use of her kit. Just because a warframe can be built a certain way does not mean it frequently does, or that this somehow exempts it from any and all design issues it may have -- a commonly cited issue with Gauss, for example, is that going for a max Duration build, which is encouraged because three of his four abilities scale almost exclusively with duration, renders his 3 almost unusably bad, which is distinct from it simply being weaker than normal. In Equinox's case, though, the problem isn't even based on her min-maxing, it's based on the fact that most of her abilities are simply not worth using -- there is generally no reason to use Rage, Pacify's damage reduction is unreliable against today's damage-saturated environment, Provoke is situational at best due to its increased Energy drain, and Mend is by both our admissions not worth the cast. This leaves Rest and Maim as the only abilities consistently worth using, and those two abilities are incompatible due to how sleep breaks from a health threshold. Thus, by design, Equinox is split into focusing on either one or the other ability, and has no major incentive to use the rest of her kit.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Teridax68

[FrostDragoon]

I understand why people mistake my disinterest or lack of motivation to address things I don't consider important as some form of "evasion," but when I can read that post as a dressed up "no u" without anything interesting added to the conversation, I think at least other people reading this would understand my attitude toward it. As for "losing a thread," you say that as if it means anything at all. I simply react to trolls the way they deserve. If the mods want to lock a thread, that's their prerogative. However, I have been rather polite with you, even when criticizing your argument. That doesn't mean I care to address everything we already covered ad nauseam. When you repeat a point I already addressed as though it's somehow valid just for repeating it, that's where I become dismissive toward you (or others who do it).

Even when I pointed out how I don't see you understanding my side of it, you only insist you do while making points that prove you don't. Why should I put in more effort for responses like that?

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I understand why people mistake my disinterest or lack of motivation to address things I don't consider important as some form of "evasion," but when I can read that post as a dressed up "no u" without anything interesting added to the conversation, I think at least other people reading this would understand my attitude toward it.

But people clearly don't, hence why I'm not the only one who disagrees with you. Either you want to have this conversation, in which case you need to make an effort, or you don't, in which case don't pretend you're making a cogent argument while simultaneously fully admitting to avoiding any attempt to explain yourself. As it stands, you have failed to give a single argument explaining why you believe Maim's bleed aura to be essential to Equinox's kit, in spite of your knee-jerk reactions to any criticism of the mechanic.

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

As for "losing a thread," you say that as if it means anything at all. I simply react to trolls the way they deserve. If the mods want to lock a thread, that's their prerogative. However, I have been rather polite with you, even when criticizing your argument. That doesn't mean I care to address everything we already covered ad nauseam. When you repeat a point I already addressed as though it's somehow valid just for repeating it, that's where I become dismissive toward you (or others who do it).

You cannot be simultaneously polite and dismissive, the two are mutually exclusive. The fact that you seem unable to acknowledge the part your behavior played in the closure of your previous thread is itself also a massive red flag. If you really want to continue calling everyone with a contrary opinion a troll and treating them "the way they deserve", by all means, be my guest; see where that gets you, and how that excuse holds up to the mods.

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Even when I pointed out how I don't see you understanding my side of it, you only insist you do while making points that prove you don't. Why should I put in more effort for responses like that?

You didn't "point out" anything, you merely accused me of not understanding you simply because I disagreed with you, and then used that as a flimsy excuse to continue not substantiating any of your claims. There is a difference between making a claim and supporting it, a difference you appear blithely unaware of. In the end, you're not forced to do anything, but as appears to be a recurring problem, you can't have your cake and eat it too: you can't successfully engage in an argument while not making any effort to actually argue, and your attempts to do both just come across as vapid. At this stage, I suspect all of this is merely a defense mechanism, as it would not have cost you much effort to actually explain why you want Maim to stay in Equinox's kit so much, had you any actual point to make.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But people clearly don't, hence why I'm not the only one who disagrees with you. Either you want to have this conversation, in which case you need to make an effort, or you don't, in which case don't pretend you're making a cogent argument while simultaneously fully admitting to avoiding any attempt to explain yourself. As it stands, you have failed to give a single argument explaining why you believe Maim's bleed aura to be essential to Equinox's kit, in spite of your knee-jerk reactions to any criticism of the mechanic.

Putting aside your attempt to speak for others when you're clearly the last person to be in a position to know... 

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

disinterest or lack of motivation to address things I don't consider important

 

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Most of yours is just your bias against Maim, and it seems to blind you from seeing anything else we're talking about.

I have already answered it. Twice. It's irrelevant to me. Why? It's part of her kit and fits in with the theme of one form being for protection and the other for doing harm. Just because you dismiss her other abilities doesn't mean they aren't contributing to that theme too.

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You cannot be simultaneously polite and dismissive, the two are mutually exclusive.

How narrow minded of you.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You didn't "point out" anything

 

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

It feels like you're just arguing to argue at this point, because you're trying to piece apart what I said instead of seeing how they are all part of a cohesive viewpoint.

Just because you refuse to see it, or correctly understand it, doesn't mean I didn't do it. The rest is you just being defensive.

[Teridax68]

16 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Putting aside your attempt to speak for others when you're clearly the last person to be in a position to know... 

But I'm clearly not, just look at the people who've disagreed with you thus far. I'm not speaking on anyone else's behalf here, I'm pointing out things that have actually happened, which will still be real no matter how much denial you want to layer on.

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I have already answered it. Twice. It's irrelevant to me. Why? It's part of her kit and fits in with the theme of one form being for protection and the other for doing harm.

But that's a pathetic argument; literally any damage ability would be just as good a fit, if not better. You have no strong reason to defend the specific component of Maim's bleed aura other than arguing for argument's sake, or an aversion to change made all the more hypocritical by your thread and its request. 

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Just because you dismiss her other abilities doesn't mean they aren't contributing to that theme too.

Once again, there is a difference between dismissing something out of hand, which you have a habit of doing, and explaining why something doesn't work, which I've done for Equinox's abilities at length. You also seem to believe that an ability contributing to a frame's theme and that ability being worth using, let alone keeping in the frame's kit intact, are the same thing, a belief that underlines a fundamental lack of understanding of game design, or even the simple reality of how players play. It doesn't matter how thematic an ability is if it is too weak, dysfunctional, or unenjoyable to be of any value, and as explained above already, most of Equinox's abilities are simply not worth the cost or button press. There are plenty more abilities that would be thematic to Equinox, yet that would be significantly more useful to her, so there really is no reason to argue against any change to her kit just because the current one vaguely corresponds to a theme.

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How narrow minded of you.

Nope, just telling the truth. Being dismissive of people is rude, thus by definition impolite, and your attempts to jump through all of these transparent mental gymnastics to avoid taking accountability for your bad attitude are laughable.

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Just because you refuse to see it, or correctly understand it, doesn't mean I didn't do it. The rest is you just being defensive.

Then please, by all means, enlighten me as to where you explained yourself by pointing to the appropriate part of your post. At this point all you have done is grandstand in yet another reply made entirely of hot air, and given how you've resorted to parroting back my criticism at me (while still trying to accuse me of making "no u" replies), it doesn't seem like you've even managed to produce an original thought this time.

[FrostDragoon]

It's posts like that which cause said disinterest/dismissiveness. There's so much wrong with it that it's just not worth the effort. However, there's one part I'll address for you since you're obviously too dense to see how the game's design actually works with her themes even when it is anti-synergetic to her kit. Her night form is meant for defense and control. Her day form is for offense and damage. The fact that her Maim would cause them to eventually wake up is not only well within the norm for most sleep effects in the game, but also makes sense that when you switch forms, you are switching your active focus. The entire point of the frame is to have combat flexibility, which she does provide, so your whole complaint about Maim is asinine--hence my disinterest in it as a relevant conversation point.

44 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You also seem to believe...

You repeatedly say this while intentionally misrepresenting the things I have said. You should be careful about the type of accusations you throw around since you've resorted to an extensive ad hominem in place of a worthwhile argument... again, cause for dismissal.

[Teridax68]

18 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's posts like that which cause said disinterest/dismissiveness. There's so much wrong with it that it's just not worth the effort. However, there's one part I'll address for you since you're obviously too dense to see how the game's design actually works with her themes even when it is anti-synergetic to her kit. Her night form is meant for defense and control. Her day form is for offense and damage.

For all your excuses, it seems the only person who's out of their depth in the argument here is you: I'm well aware of how a damage effect has some vague thematic relevance to an offensive form, my point is that that is not a sufficient justification on its own, as I have just explained in a whole paragraph of the post you are responding to. Do try to keep up.

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The fact that her Maim would cause them to eventually wake up is not only well within the norm for most sleep effects in the game, but also makes sense that when you switch forms, you are switching your active focus.

In other words, you are supporting anti-synergy between Equinox's two forms despite the fact that you previously agreed that that sort of thing shouldn't happen. Interesting to see how easily you change your principles on a mere grudge. As it stands, your excuse here is similarly flimsy: damage waking up enemies is not, in fact, the norm, because sleep is itself a mechanic designed to open up enemies to finishers, which are made to apply massive burst damage, and any sort of burst circumvents the wake-up by killing enemies before they can wake up. Thus, Maim's bleed aura has the dubious honor of being one of the absolute worst ways to implement damage into a kit with a sleep effect, an observation that should be obvious to anyone who's actually played Equinox by any significant amount. By contrast, once more, the burst recast active works beautifully with the sleep effect, which is why I think Equinox's Day Form should likely focus more on applying burst damage, rather than damage over time.

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The entire point of the frame is to have combat flexibility, which she does provide, so your whole complaint about Maim is asinine--hence my disinterest in it as a relevant conversation point.

But my entire point is that there is a discrepancy between the intended flexibility of her kit and her inflexibility in practice, as she has no reason to stance dance and is locked into building exclusively around one of two abilities. It is your own hollow defense of Maim that is idiotic, as you yourself admitted you had no solid ground to justify it on, bar the fact that it's vaguely thematic and is a part of her current kit (and if that much is justification for you, why are you even arguing to change her?).

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You repeatedly say this while intentionally misrepresenting the things I have said. You should be careful about the type of accusations you throw around since you've resorted to an extensive ad hominem in place of a worthwhile argument... again, cause for dismissal.

Misrepresented what, exactly? Again, you keep making these accusations, yet conspicuously fail to substantiate anything you say. Your whole pretense of being dismissive and too blasé to make an effort falls flat on its face, too, because for all of your loud claims that you're too above it all to deign answer me... here you are, responding to my every post like clockwork. You're not doing a particularly good job of it, as you're visibly unable to provide an adequate response to any of the points I've made, nor have you managed to convince anyone that you're in control of this conversation, yet still you desperately try to pretend that you're making some sort of coherent argument. What are you even trying to say at this point? Because at this stage not only have you gotten your defense of Equinox's current kit in a contradictory muddle, you've undermined your very thread's core intent by claiming that game content shouldn't change simply because it already exists. Tell me: if you genuinely believe that, why even make Energy Transfer baseline to begin with? Clearly, the augment exists already (and you're going to have to find a replacement), and it's thematic to Equinox, so why does it need to change?

Edited September 23, 2019 by Teridax68

[FrostDragoon]

I'm glad you value the low effort posts more than I do. It's flattering.

[Teridax68]

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'm glad you value the low effort posts more than I do. It's flattering.

And I'm glad you've shown your true colors by preferring to scuttle your own thread (again) sooner than accept that other people are allowed to have different opinions from yours. While I still obviously support the proposal to make Energy Transfer baseline, it is evident you understand Equinox very little in practice (and your play history seems to indicate as much), and don't really appear to have her best interests in mind when discussing the rest of her kit. I invite you to try her out a little more, and see for yourself how her kit meshes together (or, more to the point, how it doesn't).

[FrostDragoon]

You're right--not wanting to write a f***ing novel to correct all your mistakes means you're obviously correct about it. Congratulations on winning the 2020 BS Award! But just so you know, there was a defining point where I knew it wasn't worth continuing the discussion with you.

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

It feels like you're just arguing to argue at this point, because you're trying to piece apart what I said instead of seeing how they are all part of a cohesive viewpoint. As long as that's the case, you won't understand where I'm coming from and the rest is just noise.

It was when you failed to correctly respond to this. I'm fine with people disagreeing, and it's ironic that you went into hyper-defensive mode after this post, showing that you actually can't handle it. I was asking for you to be honest rather than simply argumentative. Instead...

The rest is just noise.

[Teridax68]

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You're right--not wanting to write a f***ing novel to correct all your mistakes means you're obviously correct about it. Congratulations on winning the 2020 BS Award!

But I'm not asking you to write a novel -- simply making the effort of explaining yourself properly goodness knows how many posts ago could have saved you many more posts' worth of pointless prattle. As it stands, none of your replies are in any way substantial, yet you have nonetheless posted a lot on your own thread just to argue, so in effect, you have in fact written a small novel's worth, only smeared across an entire page like one big, watery verbal skid mark.

5 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

But just so you know, there was a defining point where I knew it wasn't worth continuing the discussion with you.

It was when you failed to correctly respond to this. I'm fine with people disagreeing, and it's ironic that you went into hyper-defensive mode after this post, showing that you actually can't handle it. I was asking for you to be honest rather than simply argumentative. Instead...

The rest is just noise.

See, I felt conversation actually took a wrong turn a little earlier:

5 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Once again, you missed the point. I honestly can't tell if it's deliberate, but I hope not.

This is the part where you started to get frustrated when I didn't automatically concede your point, and your first reaction was to accuse me of malice. How interesting it is then that in the post immediately after, as per your own quote, you instantly resort to dismissing my entire opinion, and putting on the childish attitude you then stuck to throughout the rest of your replies. Your mealy-mouthed excuses here are but more blatant lies: you clearly aren't fine with people disagreeing with you, as that is the very reason you decided to pick our difference on Maim's slash aura and turn it into your little hill to die on. Meanwhile, as noted in my above posts, I was actively looking for common ground, e.g. when discussing Metamorphosis, or when discussing what kind of work on Equinox should take priority.

You accuse me of being "hyper-defensive", yet it is you who chose to divert this entire conversation into a defense of your crappy behavior, with oft-repeated insistence on how your self-admittedly dismissive attitude is somehow justified in any manner. You similarly accuse me of dishonesty, yet whereas I have remained consistent in what I have been arguing, you did a 180 on your own feedback thread just to try to get one over me, destroying its and your credibility in one fell swoop. So unable you are to stand disagreement that you even outright denied that any such disagreement with you existed -- despite the fact that you lost an entire thread just because you not only couldn't handle differences in opinion, but couldn't even attempt to be mature about it. So afraid you are of admitting to any fault, that you similarly utterly refuse to see that it is that exact same attitude that has caused you to derail your own thread here. It's disappointing more than anything, really, because I agree with the stance you take on some mechanics in Warframe, yet behind that there doesn't seem to be anything -- your opinions aren't backed up by any reasoning, only a shallow gut feeling and a bizarre inability to assert yourself without lashing out at someone else in the process. If you had any traction left on this thread after that deranged conspiracy theory you dumped into your OP, you've lost it in the replies.

[Morticoccus]

Just because DE are unlikely to do anything about these things is not a valid reason to say nothing about them.

The whole reason people hate Limbo for example is tied into this as well, even what people would call an idiot build on Limbo does help the mission objective, there ain't no enemy fire getting to the defense objective, but what people want is not to defend, they want to get *all* the kills, and they want to do it as fast as they can.

Spin2win melee is the next perfect example, because it straight up transforms WF into what you'd see on endgame PoE: flash step into AOE into flash step = efficient looting.

Volt speed I don't actually mind as much with regards to missions, I just find it annoying to be randomly hasted and running into walls due to spam. I would still rather have a Limbo on the team though.