What If Exclusive Weaponry Scaled?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I made a gigantic post previously explaining why the weapons do need to be balanced and one of the things I mentioned regarding why buffs and nerfs need to happen is to prevent players from experiencing unpleasant/excessive drops in power as they progress through the game.  As such, egregiously powerful weapons need nerfs and weak ones need buffs.  The full post if below if your really care.

 

 

Balance needs to happen.  I'm one of the people that still wishes for everything being a sidegrade of everything else and higher mastery guns just being more specialized (though for the record, I have accepted defeat in that regard and if we are to have tiers, I shall do my best to assist them).

 

Tiers based on mastery are about the only reasonable way to do tiers in this game, but even then, that's a messy system.  To be perfectly honest, the mastery system punishes more than it helps by forcing a player to use weapons they otherwise wouldn't.  I guess that's part of the point though: base progression in the game around what percentage of the material has been used.  I suppose it does lengthen gameplay time.

 

Despite its shortcomings though, mastery provides a framework within which balance can occur.  It does reward grinding (as well it should) in the sense that it gives you better guns as you rank up.  There are obvious broken-OP exceptions to this (I'm looking at you, Soma), but those are the things that need to be adjusted.

 

Let's consider a player's options.  A new player has the Mk-1 Braton.  Following this, if they are informed, they are going to go for the Akbolto as a pistol and the Braton as a primary unless they happen to have a bunch of awesome mods by chance at which point they'll go for the Soma.  In other words, they're going to grab the best weapons they can find that they know of.  Normal human beings aren't going to gimp themselves deliberately unless they have a reason to.

 

For instance, I have almost all pistols maxed, and because my mastery is already nearing 10, I have no desire to ever even touch the Spectra.  It's just too weak.  On the other hand, because I would like to hit mastery 10 at some point, I am currently working on ranking up my Dread despite already having a maxed Soma, Flux, Ogris, Lanka, Boltor, Supra, Dera, etc because it's not so much of a gimping that it I don't mind it because it's actually decent.

 

Let's say the Synapse was as good as we originally thought (there was a time where some believed that >100% crit would have a chance for a crit on top of a crit, causing stupidly high damage output, though we now know it to be effectively just multishot) and was mastery 11.  Would I be willing to use the Spectra then?  Maybe.  I'd be able to get to 11 plenty of ways without it.

 

You see, people will go for the best they can get, gimping themselves as little as possible along the way to do so.  This is why we need balance within tiers.  If people have sudden stupid jumps in power (Mk-1 Braton to Soma for instance), then they won't want to touch anything else.  You shouldn't be able to get the best gun in the game until you've had the chance to get the second best, and the second after the third, and so forth.  If players are given access to content that is too powerful, they will avoid content and inevitably something more powerful than the Soma will come out and then they'll be left at mastery 1 while the new gun is mastery 10 and that's a long row to hoe considering they've just gotten used to the best in the game.  This is why nerfs can be useful.  They prevent sudden jumps in power that eclipse other content.  Nerfs should be used to bring weapons that are above the median power level of a given tier back in line or when thought of from a different perspective be used to increase acquisition difficulty (either through cost, rarity, or mastery rank required) by bumping it up to a higher tier where that power level is acceptable.

 

Now for buffs.  Some will say "just buff everything to X-level," where X is some overpowered gun.  The problem with that is that it forces a massive rebalance of every other weapon in the game which will probably be worse once complete with new overpowered guns so in the end, it is a simple waste of time for the devs when they could be doing better things with their resources.  That said, buffs are still useful.  They are ideally used to bring content in line with the median power of other content in that tier.  Should the Spectra and Embolist get buffed?  Absolutely!  They both need it very very badly.  Why?  Because as I said before, they are below the threshold of what players deem "acceptable gimping" when going through mastery.

 

Buffs and nerfs both have their place.  Balance ultimately is to make all content equally viable, which in Warframe means "for all tiers, make all content within a given tier equally viable."  Each should have pros and cons.  A Dera is very different from a Hek, but both are mastery 4 and are good, solid weapons.  We don't need things like the Soma eclipsing all other content in the game.  We just don't.  Personally, I'd rather see the Soma mastery 8 and super-high costs rather than have its power reduced, but that's just me.  I'm not trying to advocate nerfing everything into the ground.

 

The problem is though, some people don't have the appropriate perspective and come in when their favorite X got nerfed and now they're mad because it takes them a reasonable amount of time to kill things.  Instead of thinking of the big picture where buffs and nerfs need to happen to keep things relatively close to the median of the tier, all they see is the fact that they got gimped by the system.  The irony is that had they tried to advance in mastery (which is inevitable as higher and higher rank equipment is released), they would have had to have been gimped by the system anyways.  At least by nerfing, we can prevent future players from suffering the same fate.

 

 

Now, onto the issue of higher rank players making lower-rank players irrelevant by dealing all the damage.  Higher mastery players should be rewarded somehow as I detailed above.  The game already separates players by mastery though.  It will whenever possible, match you with players within three mastery ranks of yourself.  Though, honestly, the situation described where one person gets all the kills is more about warframes and their 4's than anything else which is a balance issue which needs addressing and has for a very long time.  People who advocate 4's not getting changed love to claim that people are complaining about kill-stealing which makes no sense in a PVE game, so they should be left as-is.  It's not an issue of kill-stealing though.  It's an issue of players being forced to be inactive and not useful.  Players enjoy contributing to their team and denying a player that is the heart of the issue.  People don't like it when a teammate forces them into inactivity.  Yes, sitting idly by and watching the mastery roll in gives you some sort of compensation, but you'll get mastery whether you contribute or not.  People want to contribute and that is being denied.

 

 

In the end, balance needs to happen.  Without it, we get content that gimps players, eclipses other content, and can force allies into a position where they can no longer meaningfully contribute to the team.  In all three situations, the fun of the game is reduced.  Balancing within, or in severe cases between, tiers is how we combat this.  So yes, weapons do need to be balanced.

 

 

So when seeing the a recent thread in which the OP was complaining about the Strun Wraith and Vandaltron, I got to thinking that perhaps there was something that could be done.  Ultimately, exclusive weaponry should be able to be something a player should be able to use throughout the game.  If you were part of that event, you should be able to show it off without being gimped (Brandal), but you shouldn't be obligated to either (Swraith).

 

It appears to be the intended direction of the devs that weapons should be tiered according to acquisition difficulty, but the problem is that as a result of events, players can come to acquire weapons that belong nowhere near their current power level.  As such, I have a proposal: scale the statistics of exclusive weaponry with mastery rank.

 

No longer would people have to leave their Brandal behind because of its terrible stats at mastery 10 or someone at mastery 2 getting the Swraith that outclasses everything else.  Weapons of this sort would simply have their base stats scale with mastery to stay competitive with the other weapons that the player could alternatively be adopting.

 

Thoughts?

[Vishous]

Sorry but No

If People play the Event so hard to get their Weapon they dont want to have an Mastery Level.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Sorry but No

If People play the Event so hard to get their Weapon they dont want to have an Mastery Level.

... I'm not suggesting a mastery requirement on the guns..  I'm suggesting having them scale with a player's overall mastery rank.

[xGryphus]

I have a strange feeling that this would cause quite a mess - scaling can be quite troublesome when it comes to balance and (with all due respect) DE isn't best at balancing things (yet). For now I would just wait for armor 2.0 and check out how things will work out after it arrives.

[tsubasakuroi]

I kind of like this idea, but I can't help but feel that the scaling should have some sort of limit.

 

I'd rather not see a Snipetron Vandal have the damage per shot of the Lanka, though I suppose future high ranking weapons, that would be like the normal for sniper type weapons :/

Edited September 26, 2013 by tsubasakuroi

[Archistopheles]

I'm 100% in favor of everything being side-grades

[LazyKnight]

Thoughts?

Why can't I remember the name of the weapon(I think the name was ATMA)....In final fantasy 6 there was a sword that strength grew with the health of the player using it. It was one of the weakest weapons in game at the beginning of the adventure, but by the time the player was pushing near level cap it had the highest or 2nd highest damage of all weapons in game.

 

If DE did something similar with master ranks unlocking weapons at 10% per mastery rank up to a maximum rank of 10 and 100% damage. I am not sure I like something like this, but it would let DE give away weapons that would always be useable.

Edited September 26, 2013 by LazyKnight

[RubyWeapon]

Weapons that increase their base stats according to mastery?  I can live with that, but only if every weapon in the game scales with mastery.  Before the Soma came out, I was perfectly happy with my Boltor.  Then I watched the last live stream and saw Mag the player in the stream shooting nothing but yellow numbers with the Soma.  I decided I wanted to give the Soma a try, and just as I expected, it made my Boltor (potatoed and 3x Forma'd) look like a water gun.

 

The problem with this game is that the exclusive, mastery based weapons are so OP compared to everything else (other than the Soma and Strun Wraith), they just make everything utterly useless.  Everyone, once they reach the required mastery, will want to go for the OP weapons, which absolutely discourages diversity.  Everyone rocking the same weapons?  That is so boring.  

 

Personally, if my weapon of choice, like the Boltor, could keep up with the Soma *or some other rank exclusive weapon),  by leveling up my mastery with it, I would stick with the Boltor.  Instead, I am forced to stick with what works, which is sad.

[TheDoctah]

I would honestly welcome this idea, it's different and it sounds like it could improve on the game. However, that would require people who know how to balance weapons...which currently, DE doesn't seem the best at doing ( I know they're trying, giving it time) I think this would be a great feature to have after DE knows how to really balance weapons.

[Numot]

... I'm not suggesting a mastery requirement on the guns..  I'm suggesting having them scale with a player's overall mastery rank.

This is more harm than good because the mastery system is poorly done in Warframe. You already need to grind it up, why should one be forced to grind guns, just so a gun they got for free is useful. Not to mention the issues it causes when a player is content with their mastery and doesn't want to use other weaponry or in the long term, people who took a hiatus and comeback to the game were mastery rank X is now the base line and 1-3 ranks higher than were they left off.

 

The less things tied to mastery the better in my view.

[Grilleds]

No. I don't need or want to attach my E-Peen mastery rank stats boost to my E-Peen weapon just to shove an even bigger E-Peen in newbies faces. I already made a thread in the past where I explained that these weapons are already too powerful to be permanently locked out of newer player's hands, and suggested having them make seasonal returns in the future to alleviate the issue (even as a reskinned weapon with the same stats and a different name, just so long as a newer player has a chance to get a similar weapon). Having them scale with rank would just make them even more mandatory at higher levels of play.

[Preanette]

I feel exclusive weapons are already valuable for their unique design. For weak weapons like the strun, its event counterpart should have a mastery 4 standard of power (the standard that is not too useless at high levels and not too overpowered at low levels either), so it won't be left in the dust.

 

For strong weapons like the flux. in the rare occasion, its event counterpart should be equal to the original. The unique design would be a plus to players who love the flux rifle and have been wishing for reskins (new weapons come potatoed so easy forma is all that's required). And it would also satisfy players below rank 6 who want a flux rifle earlier, and the short event would be like a special market deal for those present.

 

Exclusive weapons scaling would make me NOT want to change to other weapons because I know my weapon will stay viable throughout my entire gameplay. 

[Red-Lynx]

This is more harm than good because the mastery system is poorly done in Warframe. You already need to grind it up, why should one be forced to grind guns, just so a gun they got for free is useful. Not to mention the issues it causes when a player is content with their mastery and doesn't want to use other weaponry or in the long term, people who took a hiatus and comeback to the game were mastery rank X is now the base line and 1-3 ranks higher than were they left off.

 

The less things tied to mastery the better in my view.

These are pretty much my feelings on the matter. Volt, I'd be open to your idea if the Mastery system wasn't centered around simply grinding up random weapons, but that's exactly what we have right now. If Mastery better reflected a fair, skill-based system of progression then maybe it'd be easier to accept.

 

Hell, I'd even take it a step farther and tie mastery to effectiveness/access to melee weapons. I realize of course this would require some overhauls all over the place. My sense of progression in this game ceased to exist some time ago; it's something I miss dearly from my first 2 months or so. I wouldn't necessarily expect this to be a popular idea, though. Just my 2 cents.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Red-Lynx

[Mythrex]

... I'm not suggesting a mastery requirement on the guns..  I'm suggesting having them scale with a player's overall mastery rank.

That's is actually a great idea and i'm behind you on this 100%

[Kyte]

Since weapon tiers scaled to difficulty of acquisition is already a thing, it makes sense to detach the event weapons from the tiers, since their difficulty of acquisition is effectively infinite once the event ends.

 

That said, I don't think scaling to mastery is the best answer, since in the end it'll just make the weapon a "must-use" for anybody with mastery 7+.

Hm....

 

What if their power scaled to your accumulated mission time?

Actually no that'd just make it the same as mastery.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Kyte

[Altey]

I made a gigantic post previously explaining why the weapons do need to be balanced and one of the things I mentioned regarding why buffs and nerfs need to happen is to prevent players from experiencing unpleasant/excessive drops in power as they progress through the game.  As such, egregiously powerful weapons need nerfs and weak ones need buffs.  The full post if below if your really care.

 

 

 

 

So when seeing the a recent thread in which the OP was complaining about the Strun Wraith and Vandaltron, I got to thinking that perhaps there was something that could be done.  Ultimately, exclusive weaponry should be able to be something a player should be able to use throughout the game.  If you were part of that event, you should be able to show it off without being gimped (Brandal), but you shouldn't be obligated to either (Swraith).

 

It appears to be the intended direction of the devs that weapons should be tiered according to acquisition difficulty, but the problem is that as a result of events, players can come to acquire weapons that belong nowhere near their current power level.  As such, I have a proposal: scale the statistics of exclusive weaponry with mastery rank.

 

No longer would people have to leave their Brandal behind because of its terrible stats at mastery 10 or someone at mastery 2 getting the Swraith that outclasses everything else.  Weapons of this sort would simply have their base stats scale with mastery to stay competitive with the other weapons that the player could alternatively be adopting.

 

Thoughts?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

 

I made a gigantic post previously explaining why the weapons do need to be balanced and one of the things I mentioned regarding why buffs and nerfs need to happen is to prevent players from experiencing unpleasant/excessive drops in power as they progress through the game.  As such, egregiously powerful weapons need nerfs and weak ones need buffs.  The full post if below if your really care.

 

 

 

 

So when seeing the a recent thread in which the OP was complaining about the Strun Wraith and Vandaltron, I got to thinking that perhaps there was something that could be done.  Ultimately, exclusive weaponry should be able to be something a player should be able to use throughout the game.  If you were part of that event, you should be able to show it off without being gimped (Brandal), but you shouldn't be obligated to either (Swraith).

 

It appears to be the intended direction of the devs that weapons should be tiered according to acquisition difficulty, but the problem is that as a result of events, players can come to acquire weapons that belong nowhere near their current power level.  As such, I have a proposal: scale the statistics of exclusive weaponry with mastery rank.

 

No longer would people have to leave their Brandal behind because of its terrible stats at mastery 10 or someone at mastery 2 getting the Swraith that outclasses everything else.  Weapons of this sort would simply have their base stats scale with mastery to stay competitive with the other weapons that the player could alternatively be adopting.

 

Thoughts?

 

Would you care to give an explanation why?

[Lord.Finster]

Recent events have actually been quite tough.

Being a low level player in these scenarios isn't easy at all. You might die often and maybe you'll have a hard time even getting a team to carry you.

In short: Low mastery players potentially have to go through a lot of frustration to suceed in the events, which is why they deserve the reward all the more. Let them have their Swraith.

After all, it is a game and supposed to be fun.

Also, allowing new players to get exclusives is important to get them invested into the game. -->noobtube

[Keltik0ne]

Not a fan of this idea tbh, wouldn't affect me much but I know of a few rank 1s with multi forma frames and weapons that can tear up voids with the best.