Why baby proof Lunaro???

[African-Sapien616]

Before Update 26, Lunaro ball physics were wacky since the chimera update. After Update 26, lunaro is now baby proof. In essence, lunaro needed a band-aid but received a surgery it won't benefit from. When it came out people were making comparisons to Rocket league. So lets do that again.

When lunaro came out it was fast paced, fun, had interesting mechanics that incorporated style with skill for scoring points but the 50pt cap was kinda high.

Rocket league also was fast paced, fun and had interesting mechanics that also incorporated style with skill for scoring points.

IDK how Rocket league is doing today but I would imagine it is still fun and fast paced. It has a learning curve but lunaro did too. 

Lunaro isn't doing so amazing. Why would you lock people to making their shots from the ground only? You slowed down the pace dramatically that I believe will make the game even more boring meaning even less people will play lunaro. Also why would you deal with self passing like this? Some games are usually 1v1 or 2v1. When one is the only person on their team, who do you expect them to pass the ball to?? When the odds are against someone, the other team is NOT obligated to be honorable and have one person tag out while their teammate is playing against the outnumbered opponent.

Here is what I would suggest.

Issue #1: People using a setting to allow them to throw the ball while having their warframe facing in the opposite direction of the camera. This setting allows for some (IMO) incredible shots and maneuvers. For someone like me playing against a person that uses this setting, it's a bit of a challenge but still fun. I work with it without using it myself. My solution is well, the person is trying to score on me, so block their shot or mess their setup for the shot. For a noob, it's overwhelming to even see how fast people can score with that setting. 

Solution: Make the setting not apply in lunaro. Or prevent the animation from releasing the ball from the arcata a meter or 2 closer to the player that tossed the ball. The gap between the ball and person that uses this setting is shorter than someone who doesn't use this setting and the ball. It's weird to physically have your character check in one direction and send the unstable ball in the opposite or diagonal direction. So for the light throws and checks, make the animation make sense with the direction of motion. 

Issue #2: Self passing/ Dribbling: I get why some people don't like passing. It can be a liability depending on the skill difference between the teammates. Some people don't know how to pass at all. I personally don't see this as an issue cuz real life sports have an offense and a defense. If the teammates are coordinated, they can be an effective team. When one attacks, the other can defend or be back up just in case the attacker is blocked so they can get around the other team's defense. Dribbling is also a way to get around people when one is outnumbered. 

Solution: Make the light throws go little farther than what they normally do. That way, any attempts to make the ball an unstable shot has more time to be stopped or prepared for. 1/2 a sec can make a world of difference in a fast paced game mode. 

Issue #3: Checking/ Slide tackling: Some people spam the hell out of this to stun lock and knock down people.

Solution: I suggest create a charge up mechanic. After 3 or 4 steps the warframe takes, the check will have a full charge to go a full distance. Player can't check until they walked the 4 steps it takes to recharge their check charge. That way people can't spam it non stop.

Overall, I appreciate you giving lunaro some attention. But I don't believe that you did a good job of making it a game both new and veteran lunaro players can enjoy. I think it would have been better if the mechanics it has were incorporated into the game play (like dribbling) would prehaps improve people the learning curve a bit. Maybe a little video that shows people doing a dribble on one of the walls in the practice mode and under it, instructions on how to dribble. (jump, tap shot while aiming at the ground in front, bullet jump, and magnetize the ball to catch it). I believe also making sure new players go thru the practice mode before jumping into a match would help people better understand how to play the game. 

[RebelDeFaust]

They didnt pay attention to lunaro. All that after update 26 is a bug

[Neuroszima]

On 2019-11-01 at 4:13 AM, African-Sapien616 said:

Lunaro isn't doing so amazing. Why would you lock people to making their shots from the ground only? You slowed down the pace dramatically that I believe will make the game even more boring meaning even less people will play lunaro. Also why would you deal with self passing like this? Some games are usually 1v1 or 2v1. When one is the only person on their team, who do you expect them to pass the ball to?? When the odds are against someone, the other team is NOT obligated to be honorable and have one person tag out while their teammate is playing against the outnumbered opponent.

Some nice words spoken here, and the slowed down, baby movement system that it is now is 100% a hit in a face of anyone that played at a more advanced level. 100% agree with you on this.

On 2019-11-01 at 4:13 AM, African-Sapien616 said:

Here is what I would suggest.

Issue #1: People using a setting to allow them to throw the ball while having their warframe facing in the opposite direction of the camera. 

Solution: Make the setting not apply in lunaro. Or prevent the animation from releasing the ball from the arcata a meter or 2 closer to the player that tossed the ball. The gap between the ball and person that uses this setting is shorter than someone who doesn't use this setting and the ball. It's weird to physically have your character check in one direction and send the unstable ball in the opposite or diagonal direction. So for the light throws and checks, make the animation make sense with the direction of motion. 

I agree with you on point that i seen those types of movement awkward, but there is no setting like this. you were always allowed to face your warfrme left, right, or totaly backward and still successfuly throw a ball to where the reticle aims. 

Unelss you talk about the "align attacks with camera" setting, which is propably what you mean, but it has slightly different consequences than this.
I'll be honest i utilize this setting rarely when making unstable shots. Before update, it was already non-trivial learning how to end up, for example, throwing the ball in the air, and then jump so that you are prefectly aligned with the ball for unstable opportunity, and additional keypress makes it even more complicated. Most shots don't even need extra "throw me from the back" action, because when bulletjump+jump'ing correctly you already get pretty good spot for smashing the ball. It was more about making a handful of shots that "pro+" level of skill people could achieve with S-throws, and to tighten dribble a bit more. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a pro in lunaro, but intercepting dribble is only a matter of skill, and no amount of extra key inputs can shield you from players that tightly follows you and know what to do.

Also practice makes perfect at defending the goal. and making this #1 Issue option go away from lunaro will make less options for offense as well as defense, since it also affects the #3 Issue on your list.

On 2019-11-01 at 4:13 AM, African-Sapien616 said:

Issue #2: Self passing/ Dribbling: I get why some people don't like passing. It can be a liability depending on the skill difference between the teammates. Some people don't know how to pass at all. I personally don't see this as an issue cuz real life sports have an offense and a defense. If the teammates are coordinated, they can be an effective team. When one attacks, the other can defend or be back up just in case the attacker is blocked so they can get around the other team's defense. Dribbling is also a way to get around people when one is outnumbered. 

Solution: Make the light throws go little farther than what they normally do. That way, any attempts to make the ball an unstable shot has more time to be stopped or prepared for. 1/2 a sec can make a world of difference in a fast paced game mode. 

So it is a 0-1 scenario? If one is outnumbered and 3 people follow him, he has to drop this ball and has to not get opportunity to dribble, and they have to pass?
People don't know how to pass at all, because they don't know there is "R" key for autopass, because it's nowhere in game explained how this works and it extists. The only hint you get this exist is the lunaro keybinding settings, where you can change this to some other key and you Wonder propably what does this setting even mean when you have "Mouse 1" in the first place. People also start the game not even going to practice mode, but it isn't advertised in a game. Even conclave itself isn't advertised in a game, but it was the same as with Trials, which are currently gone, but it's totaly different topic.

Also there aren't any technique of making an unstable that doesn't require a setup. You get a good indication of someone trying to make an unstable and more or less, with skill, you can intercept/deflect most of those. Again i am no master at this, and defense isn't my strong side, but it isn't any magic, that if a person throws lightly ball in front of himself near opponets goal, he tries to pull off unstable. (unless he's new to lunaro and doesn't even know unstable can be pulled off)

Other reason to why people don't pass is that usually you see like one person who attacks and knows what he is doing, and the other/s is/are just watching, not knowing what they are even suppose to do against skilled player, hence quickly losing the ball. One lose trust to such player and as a result only one player is playing versus the other team, because only he knows how to, lets say, make unstable, go through enemy team, dribble, or such. Sometimes pass occur if you see all the enemy team is on one single person and others are free, but this is rare, and new players tend to take a while to aim, opponents catch up, and start disrupting him/her, resulting in lost ball and loss of 1/2/3 points.

The light throws going further will mess up many unstable shots that we know of, and this isn't something like the loooong check distance we had in the past that needed to be addressed (with no check speed falloff, so one travelled like 15 m covering VERY long distance and making checks against players pretty much unfair, in eyes of some people).

On 2019-11-01 at 4:13 AM, African-Sapien616 said:

Issue #3: Checking/ Slide tackling: Some people spam the hell out of this to stun lock and knock down people.

Solution: I suggest create a charge up mechanic. After 3 or 4 steps the warframe takes, the check will have a full charge to go a full distance. Player can't check until they walked the 4 steps it takes to recharge their check charge. That way people can't spam it non stop.

One point above i mentioned check distance was shortened. Some players also noticed that the speed falloff made the check animation start up not instantanieous, but first it has a bit lower speed, it slightly increases, and then slows down. Making it charge, would mean you have to predict where pepole will either land (to check them as they land so they drop the ball), or where the ball will go, making air checks that defenders perform to kick out the unstable ball approaching goal even more of a pain, and you had to start up sometimes even before the unstable attempt was made by the oponent,poening a window for them to pretty much always false an unstable to make it somewhere else. It would be a guessing game sometimes:
will he do unstable or not? 
should i start charging check now, or later?

Note that most of the people check because they don't even know how to properly follow their oponent and intercept their "long throws", or even the dribble. With skill it changes, you have no room for a slow action which is check if oponent already is moving fast towards your goal, so mostly you'll just magnetize the ball along with aimglide to catch it midair. Of course it also depends how far are you from enemy, and if he/she comes directly to your front, or you try to catch up to him/her. Or you check somewhere else, like in a fast response to enemy nearly making an unstable in hope to at least deflect it somewhere else, or kick the ball away from your oponent.

Also note how sidechecks with disabled "align attacks to camera" help you defend the goal. You still get the view on the field, you know where the opposing team members are, you also know how the unstable travells towards your goal. Side checking, covers your goal very well, and still have a room for skill since the unstable kickouts only happens for the duration of a check, after which you fall down (remember that every single goal in lunaro is in the air? not on the ground level? so you have to additionaly doublejump, sometimes bulletjump upwards to position yourself; how do you see an additional charging mechanic in addition to all these steps that defender needs to perform?)

I don't want to criticise you, all of this are just words of experience gained playing against some of the lunaro best players, that still wanted to show me how to make the use of the movement/throwing/checking system that was there befroe U26.

And how to improve.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Neuroszima
small fix

[Sharkgoblin]

what is a lunaro

[Funki0]

Well, it does seem more like it all got ruined by the changes of the melee system and it never was intended to be this way, since Lunaro is played in melee exclusively.
But I do have to say that not being able to check anyone without doing a slap before that and only being able to do a soft throw from the ground is just sad.

Lunaro really requires actual fixes to it. Even if they revert all the changes that were made to Lunaro and made it how it was back then without any kind of immunity or similar things, I would love to see that and I am pretty sure a ton of people would too. The only thing missing would be the delay after dropping/throwing the ball. That could be reintroduced, but please not as a 0.5sec delay, but rather as a 0.2-0.3msec delay. It really slowed everything down and very skilled players got hit on the head by the now so low skill ceiling.
This was before melee 3.0 of course. Now Lunaro is a broken  mess that consists of no checks, and only soft throws on the ground, which in my opinion, is not Lunaro anymore.

[coolbe]

I do not understand why they did not think of checking Lunaro before launching U26; after all, this is not the first time that melee changes affect Lunaro in a negative way.
As of right now, Lunaro is utterly broken and stripped of everything that makes it great.

[S.Dust]

Tl:dr

[African-Sapien616]

On 2019-11-02 at 9:45 AM, Neuroszima said:

Unless you talk about the "align attacks with camera" setting, which is propably what you mean, but it has slightly different consequences than this.
I'll be honest i utilize this setting rarely when making unstable shots. Before update, it was already non-trivial learning how to end up, for example, throwing the ball in the air, and then jump so that you are prefectly aligned with the ball for unstable opportunity, and additional keypress makes it even more complicated. Most shots don't even need extra "throw me from the back" action, because when bulletjump+jump'ing correctly you already get pretty good spot for smashing the ball. It was more about making a handful of shots that "pro+" level of skill people could achieve with S-throws, and to tighten dribble a bit more. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a pro in lunaro, but intercepting dribble is only a matter of skill, and no amount of extra key inputs can shield you from players that tightly follows you and know what to do.

Yeah I was talking about the align camera to attacks setting. The slight advantage it gives some players is noticeable in matches when people check the ball and it goes in a direction that physically doesn't make sense. For example a person going away from the opponent's goal drops the ball in front of their current trajectory then turns the camera back, presses S and checks the ball making the ball do a complete 180 on it's former path and unstables into the goal. ( Bascially the ball was first going away from the goal then gets unstabled towards the goal That sh*t is wild and makes no sense in real life physics (Yeah I remember this is a game but still..😜). To a new player, it would appear like the pro they had the unfortunate luck of being matched with is breaking the game. I just got used to it so I learn to play with anticipation with patterns. All I'm saying is, making the setting to be permanently on would only nerf the pro that rely on that setting to score and get around the field. But it would also put everyone on a level playing field. The pros can still do their thing (and they can adapt unlike new players that will just quit after a few tries). It would physically make sense to send the ball in any direction that is within the 120 degree cone in front of your check. (But this isn't a big issue)

 

On 2019-11-02 at 9:45 AM, Neuroszima said:

So it is a 0-1 scenario? If one is outnumbered and 3 people follow him, he has to drop this ball and has to not get opportunity to dribble, and they have to pass?
People don't know how to pass at all, because they don't know there is "R" key for autopass, because it's nowhere in game explained how this works and it extists. The only hint you get this exist is the lunaro keybinding settings, where you can change this to some other key and you Wonder propably what does this setting even mean when you have "Mouse 1" in the first place. People also start the game not even going to practice mode, but it isn't advertised in a game. Even conclave itself isn't advertised in a game, but it was the same as with Trials, which are currently gone, but it's totaly different topic.

 Umm the situation you described is kind of difficult to follow. But what I trying to say is dribbling is an important aspect of the game. It certainly beats throwing the ball up and towards the opponent's zone full power and praying you or your teammate miraculously catch the ball before the other team and manage to score (just throwing minor shade at the noobs😈😁). The current Lunaro (U26) is locking people to release the ball only while on the ground. That kills momentum and makes a person who happens to be outnumbered an easy target for two people that are coming after them while the individual has the ball in their possession. The old ways of dribbling around helped me get around people when my teammate (who was a noob) abandoned me to play against 3 people (matchmaking had us 2v2 until the 3rd person on the other team joined at the last minute). I think I remember winning that match because I was smart but also the ability to dribble gave me some kind of a chance against the odds (keep in mind I was playing with pros but I wasn't a pro myself at the time). But when I do have a teammate, I will pass the ball to them when they are positioned at a good spot and when the opponents are too busy worrying about getting the ball from me (If only they knew to pass instead of throwing the ball very far). 

On 2019-11-02 at 9:45 AM, Neuroszima said:

One point above i mentioned check distance was shortened. Some players also noticed that the speed falloff made the check animation start up not instantanieous, but first it has a bit lower speed, it slightly increases, and then slows down. Making it charge, would mean you have to predict where pepole will either land (to check them as they land so they drop the ball), or where the ball will go, making air checks that defenders perform to kick out the unstable ball approaching goal even more of a pain, and you had to start up sometimes even before the unstable attempt was made by the oponent,poening a window for them to pretty much always false an unstable to make it somewhere else. It would be a guessing game sometimes:
will he do unstable or not? 
should i start charging check now, or later?

When I said giving checks a charge, I was thinking something like a power meter of sorts. Like each step the player takes charges the meter a certain amount. Once full, they can check when they need to use it but once used, it drains the power meter so they can spam it. I seen people do 3 checks in a row before without breaks (like no walking animation between each check). Kinda like Gauss' meter, when he running, it charges his battery thing. But the check power meter can only be used once the gauge is full and has a constant recharge rate that is accelerated with movement.  Moving around will cut the recharge down to 2.5 or 3 seconds and remaining stationary will have you wait 4 or 5 seconds after the check. 

(I'm not saying add a charging up time before a check mechanic. I'm saying add a mechanic that will create a delay between checks kinda like the kicks you can do immediately after a check but in the form of a gauge that needs to be filled to max before each check)

Also side checks help YOU and NOT me with align attack setting off. I leave mine on cuz it feels weird to play like that on mouse and keyboard for me. I'm used to that feeling with controller. And as far as this setting goes, to me it's there and I choose not to use it (tried it and it doesn't work for my play style). It doesn't have to go away entirely but the advantage it gives player with S throws could be addressed a little. If one was to have the setting on and throw the ball lightly and bullet jump to catch it, the time interval of that is longer compared to the setting turned off and doing the same thing.

TBH I made this (main) post out of frustration when the bug that sent the ball sideways when trying to dribble straight down seemed like it was addressed by entirely different game mechanics that felt like a nerf to basically everything that made lunaro fun. It went from ball physics is a bit broken (which had me like wtf?) to ALL of Lunaro is broken (like BRUH WTF did you do DE???!!!). 

[African-Sapien616]

On 2019-11-02 at 9:49 AM, Sharkgoblin said:

what is a lunaro

Lol you joking or you for real?

[Funki0]

On 2019-11-13 at 8:38 AM, African-Sapien616 said:

Lol you joking or you for real?

They are most likely just joking.

On another note. We seem to have finally been heard, since the melee in Lunaro has been restored.
Now one big thing that needs to get fixed would be the annoying problem that causes the ball to just bounce off your body when you are just throwing it. This is kind of an older one by now.

 

[Neuroszima]

46 minutes ago, Funki0 said:

They are most likely just joking.

On another note. We seem to have finally been heard, since the melee in Lunaro has been restored.
Now one big thing that needs to get fixed would be the annoying problem that causes the ball to just bounce off your body when you are just throwing it. This is kind of an older one by now.
*gif-snip*

 

they did hear us but not fully, apart from what you said (which would obviously be nice to fix) still there is bug with clients not cause unstable ball to gain momentum as opposed to host:

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Neuroszima