Kuva litch feedback and adjustment ideas

[CRAFTTHIS]

Having played the new update as a veteran I wanted to throw my hat in the ring, no idea if the Devs will see this or if it will fade into obscurity but these are my honest opinions and that of some of my friends that also play.

My biggest complaint is that when kuva lich do spawn there is nothing you can do but take a loss for the team and get downed (until you finish gathering all the murmurs which is another hassle and a half).  This is not fun and does not provide any actual game play, sure i can shoot him and drop his many health bars but if he is just going to kill me if any of the 3 are wrong it feels like just having one less revive per mission for no real reason. After the first few times it does not provide a feeling of dread, or surprise just extreme frustration and "lets just get this over with, kill me already"

In my opinion You should be able to kill them without the murmurs by just pure DPS, however they wont stop spawning in until you finally get the right order of murmers (also they spawn in more and more often as you kill them similar to how the wolf spawn chance was increased to being "he will spawn so often you will just wish the event ended already" during the first nightwave event)  Having the wrong order of mods when you land the final strike will result in him despawning and resulting in a higher spawn chance (with no reward, he's just tanky and gets annoying by spawning in Every mission)

Now onto the second aspect of the new kuva litches, the thrawls do not spawn quite often enough, i find myself actively going out of my way to kill them instead of it being a passive thing, in a four player squad of veterans its not much of a problem because everything melts including the thrawls so it feels a little passive. I think if trawl hit squads spawned in similar to nightwave event enemies on random missions it might alleviate the problem a significant amount. 

The third aspect of tier five relics in my opinion was a well done gameplay element, it encourages players to play kuva syphons (which already spawn on a variety of maps instead of the endless same missions). There is a bit of RNG in the rewards needed to get lucky to kill your own personal litch but i think its alright in my opinion.

 

Edit: Quick time events could be implemented once you deplete one health bar, if you don't have a right requiem mod you will be hit with a difficult quick time event (that isn't supposed to be easy, reinforcing the idea that warframes can be killed by liches pretty easily  there are examples of alternative camera angles for these animations in the profit taker, and the insertion animation at the beginning of most missions (that is sometimes unskipable bug)

if you fail the (hard) quick time event (rewarding the player for actually having skills and quick wits, with RNG of course because most of this game already is RNG on which button to press.) you get the glorious death animation of your warframe being viciously assaulted by the Lich

But this is all easier said than done, implementing a whole new system takes a long time, and is probably not feasible in a small time frame.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by CRAFTTHIS
clarification on thrawls dying passively and the quick time event idea, as well as links to others

[enizer]

2 hours ago, CRAFTTHIS said:

Having played the new update as a veteran I wanted to throw my hat in the ring, no idea if the Devs will see this or if it will fade into obscurity but these are my honest opinions and that of some of my friends that also play.

My biggest complaint is that when kuva lich do spawn there is nothing you can do but take a loss for the team and get downed (until you finish gathering all the murmurs which is another hassle and a half).  This is not fun and does not provide any actual game play, sure i can shoot him and drop his many health bars but if he is just going to kill me if any of the 3 are wrong it feels like just having one less revive per mission for no real reason. After the first few times it does not provide a feeling of dread, or surprise just extreme frustration and "lets just get this over with, kill me already"

In my opinion You should be able to kill them without the murmurs by just pure DPS, however they wont stop spawning in until you finally get the right order of murmers (also they spawn in more and more often as you kill them similar to how the wolf spawn chance was increased to being "he will spawn so often you will just wish the event ended already" during the first nightwave event)  Having the wrong order of mods when you land the final strike will result in him despawning and resulting in a higher spawn chance (with no reward, he's just tanky and gets annoying by spawning in Every mission)

Now onto the second aspect of the new kuva litches, the thrawls do not spawn quite often enough, i find myself actively going out of my way to kill them instead of it being a passive thing, in a four player squad of veterans its not much of a problem because everything melts including the thrawls so it feels a little passive. I think if trawl hit squads spawned in similar to nightwave event enemies on random missions it might alleviate the problem a significant amount. 

The third aspect of tier five relics in my opinion was a well done gameplay element, it encourages players to play kuva syphons (which already spawn on a variety of maps instead of the endless same missions). There is a bit of RNG in the rewards needed to get lucky to kill your own personal litch but i think its alright in my opinion.

 

 

Repeated "supposed to lose" fights?
Uh, yeah, that wont get old fast..

Surprise losses are frustrating.
A forced fight you literally cant win, that's only frustrating at first, when you can see it coming a mile away that just becomes boring.

A system where the player just lets go of the controls and thinks "just get this nonsense over with" is flowbreaking, which in a game focused on fast paced action, should be avoided at all costs..

Make it so that we can win the fight, but victory means nothing, or make him escape at the last second, comic book villain style, it's much better for the fast paced "space ninja" feel of the game.

Edited November 3, 2019 by enizer

[Silta]

4 hours ago, CRAFTTHIS said:

In my opinion You should be able to kill them without the murmurs by just pure DPS, however they wont stop spawning in until you finally get the right order of murmers (also they spawn in more and more often as you kill them similar to how the wolf spawn chance was increased to being "he will spawn so often you will just wish the event ended already" during the first nightwave event)  Having the wrong order of mods when you land the final strike will result in him despawning and resulting in a higher spawn chance (with no reward, he's just tanky and gets annoying by spawning in Every mission)

I agree with this. It gets tiring if he just kills you EVERY TIME if you have even 1 mod wrong. We were told that we could "Kill them and they'll come back multiple times" This isn't true. In fact, the only times they "die" or get "killed" Is when you first activate them as larvalings, and when you get the mods right. Those are the only times those "kills" are valid for anything.

3 hours ago, enizer said:

Make it so that we can win the fight, but victory means nothing, or make him escape at the last second, comic book villain style, it's much better for the fast paced "space ninja" feel of the game.

THIS!

If we get our mods in the wrong order, they kill us instantly, mix it up. Let us actually have a finisher animation on a whelm, just don't let it kill them for good. Have them taunt us when we return to our ship, or have them flee on the chance. I'm a tad disappointed that we can't kill them. If I recall it was said as long as one of us dies at the hand of the other, they'll level up.

[Flying_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, CRAFTTHIS said:

kuva lich do spawn there is nothing you can do but take a loss for the team and get downed (until you finish gathering all the murmurs which is another hassle and a half).

Ummm what? You should be trying out different combos of requiem mods at the same time as farming murmers. Odds are pretty good that you can get lucky through trial and error faster than farming all those murmers.

I can understand your frustration if you chose the path of farming murmers before farming requiem mods. But once you have assembled a collection of requiem mods, it becomes a gambling game every time you attempt to use your parazon. You have a 1/336 chance of getting it right on the first try. A 1/42 chance if you know the first requiem, and a 1/6 chance if you know the first two. I think it's designed so that if you get lucky, you get a little spike in dopamine - like people get when they gamble. It follows a VRRV schedule of reinforcement: variable-ratio reinforcement, with reinforcement variety. The same system they use in sea-world to get dolphins to jump out of the water on command in front of an audience. It works on humans too 🙂 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Flying_Scorpion

[Pilot2394]

I don't like grind over 9000 mobs just to know what mods i should grind over the next hour or two.Random amount of lich slaves, to fill bar for one of random requiem mod that should be placed in random(correct) combination. Oh but first i should get one, from the relics which has random drop chance too!  The fk? How much time should i spend to just encounter one lich? 

It will be ok for me if i can go to the one mission(~30-40 min) and fill requiem bar. So in one day, (one evening) i could just revealed the mods i need, and on the next day i could be focused on getting these mods. The way lich interact with player is great, so i would know - today it may mock me, but tomorrow it'll be dust. This will be good game experience for me. But for me this update as boring as defection type missions. Slow and broing. 

This is nothing like Shadow of Mordor uruks... In warframe i have to spend way more time for killing blow.  Also lich never dies, but it should if i get lucky putting right mods, even if 3 mods still unrevealed. 

 

 

[LostSeeker0]

In reference to all that is said about the forced losing, it just feels WAY out of place for us to allow the Lich to grab us in a complete execution maneuver after we had taken an opportunity to strike at them when they are down. All in all, I feel that we should end up repeatedly pummeling the Lich to no avail, with both of us realizing that we are literally getting nowhere, so the Lich simply teleports away in frustration, but also potentially gaining a level as they adapt to taking massive pounding from Warframes.

We could have the failure to find the correct sequence be where both the Tenno and the Lich end up locked in a stalemate, neither able to kill each other. This would be MUCH more preferable than a forced death, as the forced death seems much more fitting for when the Lich opens you up to a finishers similar to how we can open up common enemies to such.

This could be handled better, but you'd still get the feeling you're going to get your Warframe's rear end handed to you on a silver platter one of these days as the Lich learns to shrug off your attacks more and more. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome that you need to find the weakness to the Lich using a system like this, but a forced death is crossing the line.

[Ogarra_Remaellus]

I've just finished my first lich hunt, and accidentally converted instead of killed. I've effectively lost the gun I spent hours working towards, and have nothing to show for it besides an NPC that MIGHT show up on occasions. Not to mention I've wasted a charge on three requiem mods. Needless to say I'm pissed. I want the ability to change my decision, I don't care if I have to fight my lich 20 times over, I want that gun.

[Pilot2394]

1 hour ago, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

I've effectively lost the gun I spent hours working towards, and have nothing to show for it besides an NPC that MIGHT show up on occasions

Indeed. Not. worth. efford. again.