Failing To Keep People Interested...

[neKroMancer]

Ok, lets say DE actually releases a Mod-map tool. To create user content, maps and missions. They talked about this ona livestream, not seen anything since then.

 

IMO this is what we could make use of. Make the game our own so to speak.

Honestly, I have been waiting for this addition for some time and I believe that part of WF's longevity lies in custom map and dungeon master mode. No need to balance the game, just let me play as Jackal against other players.

However, my point still stand. PvE loot-based ARPG core contents are player progression, loot, enemies, and environment. These four are what make or break the game in this genre. Successful IP make use of these to great effect. Fail title simply has no idea how to make use of these elements. Warframe is in the middle. It has good environment, mediocre loot, and downright idiotic enemies. The saving grace for the game is visual and audio. Both if which are wonderful.

[notionphil]

Storyline? Pfft. It's pretty much to cosmetic addition to the game. How many of us actually care what Rolan is saying or what Kain is mumbling after the first playthrough? Sure, it gives the game personality but it won't help if the gameplay is lacking.

 

Its not what the Rolan character is saying that is important, its the fact that the gameplay is broken up by something other than an inventory screen, which gives the game PACING and CONTEXT.

 

Story is there to give context to the content that exists in the game. It creates periods of rest, conflict, fear, climax and triumph. After a big mission, you head back to the hideout where you feel safe. You get new items from the team. You shop and equip in the town. Maybe complete a tiny side quest. And then, Rolan blabs to you about something else, and you're off, in a new environment, fighing new enemies who do slightly different things than the last group. And you fight slightly differently as well. And just when the level gets so hard that you thought you'd never win, you overcome a new boss and the whole cycle starts again, but slightly differently.

 

Pacing. Context.

 

WF has none of this. Just random missions, generally selected for the particular reward each has, each followed by an inventory screen. There is no story or context to make anyone feel anything. The gameplay itself is great. But there's no variation in it, which could be created by story based missions.

[Venarge]

Low player activity, in general.

how can you know that. I mean. have you switched to every country in the launcher to check how many players are there and have you tested every ping to see how many people are actually playing the game and all that for the last few days and that for 24 hours a day since people over the world have different playing times..... Just curious...

Edited October 3, 2013 by Venarge

[notionphil]

how can you know that. I mean. have you switched to every country in the launcher to check how many players are there and have you tested every ping to see how many people are actually playing the game and all that for the last few days and that for 24 hours a day since people over the world have different playing times..... Just curious...

 

I second the observation that player activity is not substantially increasing. And I have numbers.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

 

It's close, but slightly down from a few mos ago, I have been watching it. Note these are not overall numbers, I'd guess steam players are about 25-33% of all WF players.

 

How else can we tell it's down:

 

1) they are promoting a recruitment program, aggressively.

 

2) region and recruitment chat don't have lots of people in it.

 

3) its frequently difficult to find missions to play, still.

[notionphil]

 

There is a thread about a similar setup called CELLS, but this way is smoother and requires less work on DEs. part.

 

I´d love to get your thoughts on this. Do you think this could add to the value of the game? Or any other great improvements you can think of. :)

 

Nice idea, but I prefer the Cells idea (probably bc im the OP of it) because this idea would limit us to one story mode per planet, which is like 12? stories.

 

Also each would probably be for a set level, so that would make a very small number of stories that a high level player could run, like 3. No need to tie the number of quests to the number of locations in the game. Wouldn't add that much to do IMO.

Edited October 3, 2013 by notionphil

[neKroMancer]

Its not what the Rolan character is saying that is important, its the fact that the gameplay is broken up by something other than an inventory screen, which gives the game PACING and CONTEXT.

Story is there to give context to the content that exists in the game. It creates periods of rest, conflict, fear, climax and triumph. After a big mission, you head back to the hideout where you feel safe. You get new items from the team. You shop and equip in the town. Maybe complete a tiny side quest. And then, Rolan blabs to you about something else, and you're off, in a new environment, fighing new enemies who do slightly different things than the last group. And you fight slightly differently as well. And just when the level gets so hard that you thought you'd never win, you overcome a new boss and the whole cycle starts again, but slightly differently.

Pacing. Context.

WF has none of this. Just random missions, generally selected for the particular reward each has, each followed by an inventory screen. There is no story or context to make anyone feel anything. The gameplay itself is great. But there's no variation in it, which could be created by story based missions.

Why does everyone loves to pick just one paragraph out of an entire wall of text and try to make it looks devilish as possible? Are we talking about subject of burnout and replayability? Or are we talking about importance of storyline?

Nevermind.

Story can be used as a tool to create replayability. However, to what extent is largely depend on writers' ability to make it so. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are two examples that use limited branching storyline to create little variations after each decision Shepard/Warden has to make. This type of branching is easier to create and control but ultimately, player doesn't have any real impact within the story. Noticing ME3's ending? As long as you have sufficient readiness (which you don't need the Geth and the Krogan to reach), you will get to choose three infernal choices from the dues ex machina in the end.

However, if storyline is truely varied similar to Witcher2 then it's noticeably harder to craft and control the game but offer greater replayability to the game as well. This is a good example of "true" branching that you totally play a different game after certain decision had been made.

Looking at most ARPG storyline - Borderlands and Diablo are notable example. These are linear storyline that offer no diverse pathing and require some effort to make it interesting (like Claptrap) but ultimately, it doesn't serve the game in term of replayability. Therefore my conclusion : storyline in ARPG is mostly cosmetic. All it need is just one charismatic villain like Handsome Jack. Player progression, loot, enemies, and environments are the core that actually matter. These aspects are directly tied themselves to gameplay and offer replayability which is a thing that Warframe sorely lack.

Worth noting that I have been blasting Grineer without requiring any context and pacing for 400 hours since January already. Lack of build and customization are really the things that burn me out.

Edited October 3, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Delta4575]

A thing i'd like to see is planet specific tile sets, like Phobos.

 

The space tilesets will still be there

 

Venus would be a hazardous wasteland with rivers of acid, deep cliffs and corrosive fog, with Corpus factories all over.

 

Earth would basically be the Phobos tile except with a more post apocalyptic feel.

 

Jupiter could have infested Cloud City like structures dotted around it with gravity negation tech. Similar to the Corpus gas giant tileset.

Pluto should be a barren rock completely frozen with ice and snow. Mars is a rocky red waste with crashed Orokin and Sentient ships and ruined structures everywhere. Possibly some room for a new feral type faction.

 

Saturn would be similar to Jupiter but with Grineer platforms rather than infested Corpus ones. And a different colored sky.

 

Mercury is a fried rock with abandoned Orokin towers dotting it.

 

Neptune could have massive floating ship like structures on the oceans of..methane was it? Which have Corpus cities on them.

 

That would add variety instead of going through remixed versions of the same 5 maps constantly.

[arch111]

A thing i'd like to see is planet specific tile sets, like Phobos.

 

The space tilesets will still be there

 

Venus would be a hazardous wasteland with rivers of acid, deep cliffs and corrosive fog, with Corpus factories all over.

 

Earth would basically be the Phobos tile except with a more post apocalyptic feel.

 

Jupiter could have infested Cloud City like structures dotted around it with gravity negation tech. Similar to the Corpus gas giant tileset.

Pluto should be a barren rock completely frozen with ice and snow. Mars is a rocky red waste with crashed Orokin and Sentient ships and ruined structures everywhere. Possibly some room for a new feral type faction.

 

Saturn would be similar to Jupiter but with Grineer platforms rather than infested Corpus ones. And a different colored sky.

 

Mercury is a fried rock with abandoned Orokin towers dotting it.

 

Neptune could have massive floating ship like structures on the oceans of..methane was it? Which have Corpus cities on them.

 

That would add variety instead of going through remixed versions of the same 5 maps constantly.

^ This. By making planets unique the game wins much.

[NalkorRN]

Why does everyone loves to pick just one paragraph out of an entire wall of text and try to make it looks devilish as possible? Are we talking about subject of burnout and replayability? Or are we talking about importance of storyline?

Nevermind.

Story can be used as a tool to create replayability. However, to what extent is largely depend on writers' ability to make it so. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are two examples that use limited branching storyline to create little variations after each decision Shepard/Warden has to make. This type of branching is easier to create and control but ultimately, player doesn't have any real impact within the story. Noticing ME3's ending? As long as you have sufficient readiness (which you don't need the Geth and the Krogan to reach), you will get to choose three infernal choices from the dues ex machina in the end.

However, if storyline is truely varied similar to Witcher2 then it's noticeably harder to craft and control the game but offer greater replayability to the game as well. This is a good example of "true" branching that you totally play a different game after certain decision had been made.

Looking at most ARPG storyline - Borderlands and Diablo are notable example. These are linear storyline that offer no diverse pathing and require some effort to make it interesting (like Claptrap) but ultimately, it doesn't serve the game in term of replayability. Therefore my conclusion : storyline in ARPG is mostly cosmetic. All it need is just one charismatic villain like Handsome Jack. Player progression, loot, enemies, and environments are the core that actually matter. These aspects are directly tied themselves to gameplay and offer replayability which is a thing that Warframe sorely lack.

Worth noting that I have been blasting Grineer without requiring any context and pacing for 400 hours since January already. Lack of build and customization are really the things that burn me out.

I hope to Xom that you are implying Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins and not the S#&$ty sequels that followed.

[alocrius]

to a "what?" guy. I am rank 12, I have more than 1000 hours of gameplay. Do you really think you can judge my opinion about this game? game is not evolving. All you can do here is to grind mats for weapon, build a weapon, level a weapon, forma it and level again. Again, again and again. It is the same circle of grind over last 3 major updates, only content you can have is to run MD, ED and now Survival in order to get either xp or resources and this is about it. Nothing. Else. At. All.

 

How long you are playing? 100h? 150h? i am sure no more than 150h.

 

Game have zero challenge, zero coop or teamplay, S#&$loads of bugs which are dated back to U8. Same loads of useless garbage that only pollutes the game. Grind is not a content.

 

New game modes is a content. Even lore is a content. Not a grind. Grind must be a addition to content, not it's core.

 

Its almost as if DE have a design mandate that zero depth, strategy or tactics or replayability or teamplay dynamics will ever make it into the game.  I truly cannot fathom where their priorities are derived from.  U10 was the last nail in the coffin.  I can't believe they have no desire to engage their audience with any semblance of dynamic gameplay.  What the hell are they teaching people in game design classes?  Run down the long corridor and just keep running buddy, oh you'll get there.

Edited October 4, 2013 by alocrius

[Ganpot]

Story can be used as a tool to create replayability. However, to what extent is largely depend on writers' ability to make it so. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are two examples that use limited branching storyline to create little variations after each decision Shepard/Warden has to make. This type of branching is easier to create and control but ultimately, player doesn't have any real impact within the story.

However, if storyline is truely varied similar to Witcher2 then it's noticeably harder to craft and control the game but offer greater replayability to the game as well. This is a good example of "true" branching that you totally play a different game after certain decision had been made.

Looking at most ARPG storyline - Borderlands and Diablo are notable examples. These are linear storyline that offer no diverse pathing and require some effort to make it interesting (like Claptrap) but ultimately, it doesn't serve the game in term of replayability. Therefore my conclusion : storyline in ARPG is mostly cosmetic. All it need is just one charismatic villain like Handsome Jack. Player progression, loot, enemies, and environments are the core that actually matter. These aspects are directly tied to gameplay and offer replayability, which is a thing that Warframe sorely lacks.

 

Warframe's story isn't going to follow either of the two examples you've given, because branching (for the most part) won't exist.  You can't have an individually branching storyline in an MMO and have it remain meaningful; it just doesn't work.  So far, Warframe's approach has been both unique and clever.  DE creates situations, and the player base as a whole determines how the story progresses.  Hopefully more complicated and conscious choices are created in the future (currently we only have victory and failure as "choices").  Over time, these choices will build up an evolving lore and story for the game.  It will actually mean something to players, because many of them helped determine it. 

 

For example, the next event might involve baiting the Infested into attacking either the Corpus or Grineer.  Based on the majority of players' choices, the target will be decided.  This will impact the actual game for a set amount of time, and be remembered permanently.  Future events might then reference or even arise because of that past choice.  Perhaps the Grineer are targeted, and later launch a crusade against the Tenno in retribution. 

[ForgemasterHD]

I really like the thread:

Cells- This is Warframe's endgame. 

Would do a great job of keeping me interested.

 

I would also like to state that RNG-Kami-sama is just too random. I hate farming for one thing for over 30 hours and not see a single glimmer of hope from the system.

[neKroMancer]

Warframe's story isn't going to follow either of the two examples you've given, because branching (for the most part) won't exist.  You can't have an individually branching storyline in an MMO and have it remain meaningful; it just doesn't work.  So far, Warframe's approach has been both unique and clever.  DE creates situations, and the player base as a whole determines how the story progresses.  Hopefully more complicated and conscious choices are created in the future (currently we only have victory and failure as "choices").  Over time, these choices will build up an evolving lore and story for the game.  It will actually mean something to players, because many of them helped determine it. 

 

For example, the next event might involve baiting the Infested into attacking either the Corpus or Grineer.  Based on the majority of players' choices, the target will be decided.  This will impact the actual game for a set amount of time, and be remembered permanently.  Future events might then reference or even arise because of that past choice.  Perhaps the Grineer are targeted, and later launch a crusade against the Tenno in retribution. 

 

Problem with using events as lore is the fact that it's fire&forget. Veterans are content with the path they chose in the past and feel that their decisions matter. New players, on the other hand, will be left in the dark without any context and feel that the event is not particularly meaningful to them.

 

It doesn't offer replayability.

 

Imo, Warframe's storyline should be clearly divided into two subgroups : community-based and individual storyline. While the community-based progression make the entire community move forward as a whole, the individual storyline should be able to offer some branching story and a bit of replayability.

 

Pretty much like playing as Shepard in SP of Mass Effect and jump into weekend event in MP.

[LeoAtKnight]

You can't have an individually branching storyline in an MMO and have it remain meaningful; it just doesn't work.

Guild Wars 2 wants to speak with you.

However for the rest of your post (I won't be THAT person)..

I'm still hoping for some sort of campaign with cutscenes, but I love my japanese games so cheesy stories are just my thing.

I do like the idea of the community molding the lore and world (or Solar System in this case) through events though. Reminds me of what GW2 does with its living story, but in our case it could much larger scaled. If this is the route DE decides to take so be it, just keep my lore tab updated with pretty diorama.

But relating to the main topic, the story isn't what will keep players playing, it will be the gameplay. These are the #1 most important things to fix, and I'm sure DE knows this. Hek, we all know this.

what should we start with first? Oh god what should we start with first..

I want to say the tutorial. If we can at least have new players coming in and sticking around, that should keep the population up and will excite further players as the mechanics slowly improve.

Just my opinion.

[Xylia]

I hope to Xom that you are implying Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins and not the S#&$ty sequels that followed.

 

Hey now, Mass Effect 2 was awesome too.

 

ME3.... well..... the gameplay was more refined.. kinda wish they'd done better on the story.

[Numot]

Can't play because the game has gained no depth over the course of patches.

 

When I first came into Warframe I thought "this is cute, as a concept, but it needs structure". Here we are now with the same random tile maps, with no story. The game hasn't changed much, its more polished and still lacks substance. Missions all blend together and feel the same due to random tile sets. No lore is in the game really to speak of, you can't really sneak around due to the random level creation.

 

DE keeps spewing out weapons but they haven't taken the time to really go back and make systems unique, or tie story into the game. To me DE thinks that play time equates quality and content, and that isn't true. Grind doesn't make a game good, grind isn't content, and grind isn't going to keep me interested.

 

...But relating to the main topic, the story isn't what will keep players playing, it will be the gameplay. These are the #1 most important things to fix, and I'm sure DE knows this. Hek, we all know this.
what should we start with first? Oh god what should we start with first..
I want to say the tutorial. If we can at least have new players coming in and sticking around, that should keep the population up and will excite further players as the mechanics slowly improve.

Just my opinion.

 

Gameplay is great...if you actually do something with it. All Warframe has going for it is how it plays, yet nothing is actually done with it. Missions aren't tied together, and the enemy A.I. is a total crapshoot, making most of the cool things you can do in this game largely pointless.The mechanics of Warframe are great, but you don't get to use them. There is a level of hand-crafted touch that other games have in their levels and design that make you play them over and over, and Warframe just doesn't have that. I feel a big part of this is the tile sets and random levels, its nice for generating some quick stuff for people to play in, but lacks the quality of a good, well thought out level with encounters to deal with, and stuff to interact with.

[MonsterMonkey]

The game is great I think. But I am not seeing a lot of players in the farther planets from the Sun after Jupiter its most solo or two man teams I have done and yes the bar was set to Online :D

 

I think most players spend time on Void and orokin direlect and defense missions for Keys

[Xylia]

The game is great I think. But I am not seeing a lot of players in the farther planets from the Sun after Jupiter its most solo or two man teams I have done and yes the bar was set to Online :D

 

I think most players spend time on Void and orokin direlect and defense missions for Keys

 

Mainly because you get next-to-nothing by running Capture, Exterminate, etc. The only reason why you'd want to do them is to farm Nav Cords if you still need Mutagen, or if you're leveling up and are tired of Cyath/Xini.

 

Otherwise, it is all Defense, Void, Nightmare, etc.

[theammostore]

 

This should enter the conversation. Even if it's something that DE should see.

[NalkorRN]

Hey now, Mass Effect 2 was awesome too.

 

ME3.... well..... the gameplay was more refined.. kinda wish they'd done better on the story.

The biggest issue with Mass Effect 2 is how they started ruining the Reapers. They went from Space Mecha-Cthulhu's to things that actually harvested races to reproduce. Nowhere in this conversation did Sovereign actuall confirm that random squadmember's sad grasping attempt to think of the Reaper's goals:

Notice how in it, Kaiden (the randomly selected squad member) interpreted the Reaper's goal as harvesting societies, yet it could just as easily be killing them off for unknown reasons. Mass Effect 2 made the mistake of giving the Reaper's a somewhat knowable origin, motivation, and goals. They went from scary, unknowable, dare I say horrific godlike beings to just creepy and somewhat scary.

[Estred]

Borderlands isn't even a fair comparison. You know why? BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY HAS STORY TO INTEREST PEOPLE

Still only lasted me about 1-2 months of casual playing to get bored. Got through True Vault Hunter, got my set of Gold Gear. The promptly got bored of farming bosses for nothing but gameplay and quit. Ultimate Vault Hunter is just lame in that they went the Diablo Route of difficulty.

 

"Lets make it all super hard so that the gear everyone played for months to get is nigh worthless."

 

Players hate having all the stuff they worked for suddenly becoming weak. Look at any successful Trading Card Game, old cards aren't devalued so much as they find niches. If I have a deck from one set but the new set makes every card I own complete trash... well suddenly the collection I spent so much money getting and trading for, nobody will buy or trade with me. Most players will quit rather than start over and the same holds true for games. That is why in MMO's if the gap between expansions is too high, since almost all MMO Expansions cause Power Creep to some extent it's easy to loose players.

[memeth]

to a "what?" guy. I am rank 12, I have more than 1000 hours of gameplay. Do you really think you can judge my opinion about this game? game is not evolving. All you can do here is to grind mats for weapon, build a weapon, level a weapon, forma it and level again. Again, again and again. It is the same circle of grind over last 3 major updates, only content you can have is to run MD, ED and now Survival in order to get either xp or resources and this is about it. Nothing. Else. At. All.

 

How long you are playing? 100h? 150h? i am sure no more than 150h.

 

Game have zero challenge, zero coop or teamplay, S#&$loads of bugs which are dated back to U8. Same loads of useless garbage that only pollutes the game. Grind is not a content.

 

New game modes is a content. Even lore is a content. Not a grind. Grind must be a addition to content, not it's core.

 

..and if a Master write that, i can just support you. i agree with you, totally. <3

Edited October 4, 2013 by memeth

[Riskbreaker]

1st lets be real,they invest a lot in marketing,i mean every time i open my browser where ever i go there it goes "ninjas play free",excalibur pops up.

So as everybody else after some time,i was like "ok lets try this,it's free i have nothing to lose",and so here i am,and to be honest after couple months of playing,now i more watch on my alert app than i play.Before i start playing Warframe i was hooked on MassEffect3 mp,gameplay was really good,so when i get bored with ME3 i was looking something with similar gameplay.

Now,to make some conclude,only real thing that i miss here,are skills,i mean playing skills.In warframe you don't need it,you just go from one room to another and kill all,without much thinking on,which type of enemies are in it,and at least basic tactic how to deal with them.

I just remember one situation in ME3 mp,i was out of ammo and attacked by 2 marauders,one was behind me and other in front of me,so i cloaked fast,get cover under small wall,grab marauder in front,than jump over wall,and wait to grab marauder that was behind me.hehe it was very cool feeling and specially when over my speakers i heard "smart" from my random teammate :D.and there was many situations like this,where it is good to think before act,and ofc with combination of powers.

[Xylia]

The biggest issue with Mass Effect 2 is how they started ruining the Reapers. They went from Space Mecha-Cthulhu's to things that actually harvested races to reproduce. Nowhere in this conversation did Sovereign actuall confirm that random squadmember's sad grasping attempt to think of the Reaper's goals:

Notice how in it, Kaiden (the randomly selected squad member) interpreted the Reaper's goal as harvesting societies, yet it could just as easily be killing them off for unknown reasons. Mass Effect 2 made the mistake of giving the Reaper's a somewhat knowable origin, motivation, and goals. They went from scary, unknowable, dare I say horrific godlike beings to just creepy and somewhat scary.

 

Do the Reapers _have_ to be a mystery for them to be a "good" element in the story?

 

In ME1, yeah, they were this mysterious thing that kept you going "so, okay, wtf are they then?"

 

I don't think I would have wanted to go a whole 'nuther freaking game not knowing a damn thing about them despite all of the missions, and battles I've had to go through. There is a point where Enough is Enough, just tell me already.

 

In ME2, yes, we learn what the Reapers are, why they do what they do, etc. They go from being the mysterious boogieman to this ominous godlike force that is coming to kill Everything. The danger is still there, and you knowing everything about it isn't going to change anything. In fact, it adds to the suspense when you know what they will do to you when they finally do catch you. And it is a FateWorseThanDeath.

 

Now, back on topic...

 

I think maybe some more guns and melee weapons might be more useful after Armor 2.0 -- we can't really say much about the guns and the lack of use for them.

 

However....

 

Leveling all of these weapons by leeching Cyath/Xini does get old. In fact, I've made it a point to NOT do that because of how incessantly boring it is.

 

The XP system could use a change to facilitate players using their weapons, as well as a Mastery System Reward to give people incentives to try more, different weapons. Give players a reason to use different weapons, and make it so that actually using them is rewarding in terms of progress towards leveling them up -- the best way to level junk shouldn't be to stick 3 unranked weapons on and stand around doing nothing but casting some sort of support ability like Roar.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Xylia

[notionphil]

Why does everyone loves to pick just one paragraph out of an entire wall of text and try to make it looks devilish as possible? Are we talking about subject of burnout and replayability? Or are we talking about importance of storyline?

 

 

----

 

Looking at most ARPG storyline - Borderlands and Diablo are notable example. These are linear storyline that offer no diverse pathing and require some effort to make it interesting (like Claptrap) but ultimately, it doesn't serve the game in term of replayability. Therefore my conclusion : storyline in ARPG is mostly cosmetic. All it need is just one charismatic villain like Handsome Jack. Player progression, loot, enemies, and environments are the core that actually matter. These aspects are directly tied themselves to gameplay and offer replayability which is a thing that Warframe sorely lack.

 

Worth noting that I have been blasting Grineer without requiring any context and pacing for 400 hours since January already. Lack of build and customization are really the things that burn me out.

 

 

Possibly because they agree with the other points in the wall of text? Or they had a particular issue with that one point?

 

I obviously disagree with your sentiments that context isn't a requisite for replayability in a PvE game, so I wanted to state that. Diablo is legendary in terms of replayability. Borderlands is legendary in getting single players to rack up 100+ hour times which is rare for non online games.

 

Both of those games have massively sprawling context to make their content more valuable, and get you to squeeze every last drop out of it.

 

Look at the myriad of environments, controlled pacing (nef stacks and spawn points so you have to run missions from start to end each time), the game worlds that give meaning to the classes, skills and weapons. Warframe has very little context. Just stacks of guns and no where/reason to use them.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your points about lack of builds etc - I just wanted to point out that context is another way of getting users to savor and appreciate content.