Corinth Prime's issues from a fan's perspective

[Tamatu]

There was a time in WF where Corinth was in my top 10 most used primaries at all times. Unfortunately since then it has been collecting dust, but the new prime's announcement did spark my interest.

While I absolutely love the visual design of the prime skin, that's about the only thing I can say as a pro. Well, the increased mag size is good as well I assume.

Corinth Prime, like many other newer primes, suffers from DE's unreasonable fear of creating power creep in a PvE game. Those bots really gonna come up on the forums and complain, I assume. 
Corinth has great stats don't get me wrong, but are you really gonna sell a reskinned weapon in a bundle for AAA game pricing? At least bump up the meaningful stats a little bit, please. When something has predominant crit stats, adding extra status chance won't make a large difference, that's not what you will want to build this weapon for. Also, the identity crisis the 2 fire modes suffer is just strange. Making one crit and one status heavy fire mode is not that wise.

However, the first point could all be set aside as nitpick. Baza prime suffers from the same strange issue, yet it retains its original identity and has gained many QoL buffs, so most tenno let it slide.
This time, however, you took away a large part of why people loved this weapon. One bullet at a time reload allows for great combat flow, you could reload as many bullets as you liked, so it wouldn't break the flow of combat too much. Now you gotta reload for a stiff 3 seconds, breaking your flow. This, together with the detonate change, new mag size, different fire rate just completely takes the weapon's identity away, I almost wouldn't call it Corinth anymore.

On the upside, since there are no meaningful stat changes I could easily keep using the Corinth and forget about this hiccup. Since you guys will probably ""balance"" the riven disposition as well, Corinth remains a stronger contender out of the 2 versions.

I do realise this is just one weapon out of many for you guys, but it's things like this that keeps proving to people how you are so disconnected from the playerbase.

[Katinka]

8 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

This time, however, you took away a large part of why people loved this weapon. One bullet at a time reload allows for great combat flow, you could reload as many bullets as you liked, so it wouldn't break the flow of combat too much. Now you gotta reload for a stiff 3 seconds, breaking your flow. This, together with the detonate change, new mag size, different fire rate just completely takes the weapon's identity away, I almost wouldn't call it Corinth anymore.

I've not yet tried the weapon but this is what I'm afraid of since reading it's description in the patch notes.  Will it really be the Corinth if it doesn't reload like the Corinth?  I hadn't checked the stats on it but a 3 second reload might be a deal breaker for me, level it for mastery and then return to the more comfortable non-Prime.

[Tamatu]

2 minutes ago, Katinka said:

I've not yet tried the weapon but this is what I'm afraid of since reading it's description in the patch notes.  Will it really be the Corinth if it doesn't reload like the Corinth?  I hadn't checked the stats on it but a 3 second reload might be a deal breaker for me, level it for mastery and then return to the more comfortable non-Prime.

Think of it as any other weapon with a slow reload speed. It really is painful. In Corinth you did not have to worry about modding for reload, with prime you most likely want to slap on a reload mod.

I'd argue that the reload was its main identity. Without it I would hardly call it Corinth. Not even mentioning the fact that the weapon now feels worse to use, DE really missed the mark on this one.

[Althaline]

1 hour ago, Tamatu said:

I almost wouldn't call it Corinth anymore.

Why the almost? Just call it Boar Prime Mk II, like it is.

[Robolaser]

Il y a 8 heures, Tamatu a dit :

At least bump up the meaningful stats a little bit, please. When something has predominant crit stats, adding extra status chance won't make a large difference, that's not what you will want to build this weapon for. Also, the identity crisis the 2 fire modes suffer is just strange. Making one crit and one status heavy fire mode is not that wise.

You'll get benefits from the main fire increased status even without building for it. The corinth is one of the few who got better status application after the shotguns pellets' status rework. Just build for crits as always, you'll still get procs, and more than before. The normal corinth already has a whopping 540 base damage with a 30%cc and 2.8x multiplier, if DE increased these it would have been very very minor, and you probably would have been unsatisfied anyway.

The alt fire mode got an insane 50% base status, on top of the highest base damage of any fire mode of any non-archwing weapon! Again, with such a high status stat you don't even really need to mod for it (but would get substantial benefits in doing so). To put this in perspective, it has more status than the Kuva Ogris, about 3x the damage, in a larger radius, with a larger magazine, larger ammo pool, and can be detonated exactly where you want. All this as an alt-fire for an already very powerful weapon, ffs!

 

Il y a 8 heures, Tamatu a dit :

 One bullet at a time reload allows for great combat flow, you could reload as many bullets as you liked, so it wouldn't break the flow of combat too much. Now you gotta reload for a stiff 3 seconds, breaking your flow.

As i mentionned in antother thread, you can use the lock and load exilus mod to get the same functionality with corinth prime, but much faster, all while using quick melee instead of being stuck in a 1.4s reload loop. How is this not considered a gigantic performance buff, instead of being called a downgrade?

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Robolaser said:

As i mentionned in antother thread, you can use the lock and load exilus mod to get the same functionality with corinth prime, but much faster, all while using quick melee instead of being stuck in a 1.4s reload loop. How is this not considered a gigantic performance buff, instead of being called a downgrade?

Well, it does take a slot.

Personally I really like the idea I saw in another thread of Corinth P successively loading four shells at a time.  Not that I expect anything of the sort to happen at this point.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Tiltskillet

[Robolaser]

il y a 32 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Well, it does take a slot.

Exilus slot. The corinth has already quite a generous range for a shotgun, and most people seem to find the grenade too fast already, so i doubt they would, in practice, get significant benefits from fatal acceleration. The overall dps increase potential with vigilante supplies is very small, and even mindlessly spamming the alt fire, or using fire rate mod, i never ran out of ammo. I doubt that many people would spend an exilus adapter to put any of the other available options on the corinth.

The 4 shells batch reload could be a reasonable alternative, but it's indeed unlikely DE would implement it, precisely because lock and load is already an option. Asking for a slight range increase would probably have better chances of success.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Robolaser

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Exilus slot.

Yes, but you asked how it could not be considered an upgrade.  

[Robolaser]

il y a 1 minute, Tiltskillet a dit :

Yes, but you asked how it could not be considered an upgrade. 

You're nitpicking for the sake of it, completely and purposefully ignoring everything else i offered to discuss. How is this adding anything constructive at all? *sigh*

Thank you for this meaningful exchange of views, i wish you the very best of luck regarding your requests.

[Tiltskillet]

19 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

You're nitpicking for the sake of it, completely and purposefully ignoring everything else i offered to discuss. How is this adding anything constructive at all? *sigh*

Thank you for this meaningful exchange of views, i wish you the very best of luck regarding your requests.

I think we're just talking about the subject in different ways.  I simply think it's understandable how some wouldn't regard the Prime's reload as an improvement,  while others, just as understandably, would.

Apologies for not making myself clear, and possibly misunderstanding you.

[Robolaser]

  

il y a une heure, Tiltskillet a dit :

I think we're just talking about the subject in different ways

I might have overreacted, my apologies too.

My point was, in other words: DE clearly wants to promote exilus slot and mods usage, and as i said for that reason is unlikely to grant a 4x batch reload. So it boils down to : would you prefer a 5 shells magazine with a flexible but slow shell per shell reload, and not so appealing +40% flight speed or +5% damage as an exilus option; or would you prefer a 20 shells magazine with a slow 3s full reload but with the possibility of an even more flexible and 5x faster shell per shell reload, and the ability to use melee while it "reloads", at the cost of the aforementioned exilus options if you choose so?

If reloading flexibility is most important to you, i don't understand how the later would not be prefered, and not considered an upgrade. But of course would have been interested in reading other point of views. I hope this clears any possible misunderstanding.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Robolaser

[Tamatu]

8 hours ago, Robolaser said:

You'll get benefits from the main fire increased status even without building for it.

The stats can sometimes speak for themselves, but I did test it against my Corinth last night, just in case. 
That 3% sc bump per pellet is slightly better, but it is such a minimal difference that it is a buff for the sake of being able to call it a buff.

The exilus mod slot option is not a bad idea, but it is just the DE way of handling things with bandaid fixes. It is not the same as having that old cool reload. This reload-while-holstered approach is the same type of mod that bulletjump, air hover time, gravity decrease etc.. mods are: DE trying to get you to play in their weird, overly specific ways.

8 hours ago, Robolaser said:

The normal corinth already has a whopping 540 base damage with a 30%cc and 2.8x multiplier, if DE increased these it would have been very very minor, and you probably would have been unsatisfied anyway

I don't know why you are using words such as "whopping" to hype it up that much. It is the exact same cc, cd and damage stats the normal version has, and that's just sad for any prime weapon.
The second statement is simply false. Sure, if DE did the scambuff like how they did the Baza fans dirty, then the increase would have been not noticable as much. If they actually increased it by a meaningful amount (above 2% difference) then thanks to it being a crit weapon, those number do add up in the long run. If CC is increased hunter mumu builds get stronger, you get more instances of your crazy high multiplier getting applied, and so on. If the cd gets a buff, your lows remain the same but your high crits will just shred. If the damage gets a base buff, that is just a win for every stat.

8 hours ago, Robolaser said:

The alt fire mode got an insane 50% base status, on top of the highest base damage of any fire mode of any non-archwing weapon! Again, with such a high status stat you don't even really need to mod for it (but would get substantial benefits in doing so). To put this in perspective, it has more status than the Kuva Ogris, about 3x the damage, in a larger radius, with a larger magazine, larger ammo pool, and can be detonated exactly where you want. All this as an alt-fire for an already very powerful weapon, ffs!

Again, you can read these stats off a paper sheet and call them WHOPPING, AMAZING, and other hypewords, but if you take it to any mission where enemy levels are semi-decent it's crystal clear why you wouldn't use altfire.
Try hitting any ""more serious"" enemy levels with it, and it feels like slapping your foes with water balloons. To be fair, it does clear subpar enemies with it, but so does everything else in the game. Because remember, for DE lvl 50-ish is "high".

To be fair I like the option of detonating it myself, I give them that.

 

All in all, this prime weapon release can technically be called a buff, but such minimal changes were made to it that it's an insult to call it one. Those slight number tweaks were done especially so that people like you can defend it saying "well yeah it is a buff."

 

[Robolaser]

Il y a 2 heures, Tamatu a dit :

I don't know why you are using words such as "whopping" to hype it up that much. It is the exact same cc, cd and damage stats the normal version has, and that's just sad for any prime weapon.

 Accounting for the crit chances, crit multiplier, and fire rate, the corinth prime deals about 1411 dps. Please tell me how many weapons can deal as much or more. The list will be quite short, to say the least. Hence whopping, or extreme, and the fact that's it's the "exact same" (as original corinth) is irrelevant in that regard.

About the status chances: getting even 1 additional viral proc will increase your next shot's damage dealt by 25%. They also increased the firerate from 1.17 to 1.42, or +21%, which is a considerably larger dps boost than the +2% crit chance you're suggesting. When you take both improvements into account, the potential dps increase is far from "sad", at least in my opinion.

 

Il y a 2 heures, Tamatu a dit :

Again, you can read these stats off a paper sheet and call them WHOPPING, AMAZING, and other hypewords, but if you take it to any mission where enemy levels are semi-decent it's crystal clear why you wouldn't use altfire.
Try hitting any ""more serious"" enemy levels with it, and it feels like slapping your foes with water balloons. To be fair, it does clear subpar enemies with it, but so does everything else in the game. Because remember, for DE lvl 50-ish is "high".

The actual in-game damage of the alt-fire is currently not taking multishot into account in some instances, despite the UI saying otherwise. One of the community managers confirmed that DE is looking into it. Nonetheless, it already does very high damage indeed, just not against heavily armored high level targets (at least not without some external help, there are many options tho). Did you expect to casually erase lvl 170 heavy gunners in a 10meter radius with your alt-fire? Again, tell me how many primaries alt-fire have a comparable, if not better, AoE damage or status capability than the corinth prime. I think that deserves a few superlatives.

Which leads to the next point: what are YOU calling semi decent, or high level? I guess that, if you're fighting needlessly (reward wise) high level enemies, it's for the challenge. But it seems you're also asking for something that would be able to... nullify that challenge. Sounds a bit contradictory, don't you agree?

 

Il y a 2 heures, Tamatu a dit :

Those slight number tweaks were done especially so that people like you can defend it saying "well yeah it is a buff."

"people like you" sounds quite antagonistic to me, with condescending undertones. Something one would use if they were trying to flame. Please don't.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Robolaser

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Robolaser said:

So it boils down to : would you prefer a 5 shells magazine with a flexible but slow shell per shell reload, and not so appealing +40% flight speed or +5% damage as an exilus option; or would you prefer a 20 shells magazine with a slow 3s full reload but with the possibility of an even more flexible and 5x faster shell per shell reload, and the ability to use melee while it "reloads", at the cost of the aforementioned exilus options if you choose so?

Well, that's an easy one, since 20 shells is more than 5.

In the Corinth Prime's specific case though I'd rather have the sequential reload (Adjusted for mag size--reloading at the same shell rate as the base version would be silly with the current mag.)...plus passive reload or projectile speed or V.Supplies as I saw fit. 😛

[Robolaser]

il y a 32 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

In the Corinth Prime's specific case though I'd rather have the sequential reload (Adjusted for mag size--reloading at the same shell rate as the base version would be silly with the current mag.)...plus passive reload or projectile speed or V.Supplies as I saw fit. 😛

I can agree with that!

But as you said, i wouldn't expect it either. Costs nothing to ask tho, so i understand the insistence.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Robolaser

[Zsword]

My thing with what I've read of Corinth prime, and I mean read cause Relics are cruel so I haven't had a chance to science it:

1: The oversaturated and utterly asinine reliance (I'm using some harsh language here but I feel strongly on the matter as a whole, but don't have time to elaborate nor is this a topic for such things) on having weapons with alt fire modes where one mode is crit and the other is status that is becoming far too much of a trend that doesn't add anything to the gun.

2: Crit shotguns are a joke because shotguns have the worst set of crit mods by far.

3: One of the original guns main identifiers is gone as I destinctly remember the advertising hype for the corrinth was 'HEY Tube fed shotgun lovers! :D' and it is very much a satisfying weapon type to use in it's own nuance, just like how people would lose their minds if we had a Tigris variant that had a proper magazine as opposed to being a break action double barreled shotgun we all know and love/loath.

4: Downgraded secondary fire. Warframe is busy enough between abilities, enemy nuances, positioning, map and terrain awareness, ally awareness, etc, that adding in a manual detonation to the flak cannon just sounds, pointless. I'm actually glad I read about it here otherwise I would of brought it up as a bug when I did get it because the auto airburst was the other main identifier of the base gun, I don't want another Penta.

My hopes aren't up, but I mained a Gorgon and just know had the Supra Vandal supercede it, so I'll see how it feels as someone who's lived 3+second reloads his WF career. Suppressing shotgun is go? Or maybe I'm stuck waiting for Kuva Sobek?

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

I can agree with that!

But as you said, i wouldn't expect it either. Costs nothing to ask tho, so i understand the insistence.

Yeah.  All I can say is, if Strun Prime comes with standard reload, I'm rioting.   As much as one person can riot, anyway.