Hollow Point Mod Is Broken

[Tenzek]

I said it like that because people do not realize that %damage is addative and not multiplied and that's why they think that the mod is worse than it is. In my example with the vasto and maxed hornet strike people think that the damage is 160*0,85= 136 when it's actually 160-(50*0,15)= 152.5

 

 

OK, just so long as we agree that adding a point in hornet strike doesn't really remove the penalty, and it's still not worth the mod spot on guns with the stats we have right now.

[taiiat]

EDIT: I ran back through, being more thorough this time.  It is.. well... sorta useful?  I mean, yes your DPS drops by about 25%, but your AI damage per shot goes way up.  I mean..  You can definitely do it, and against heavily armored targets, you probably should, but for general play?  Eh... maybe?

this is exactly why i use Crits on Pistols. even the 10% Crit Chance on Gremlins that they used to have :/

Ammunition Efficiency (including damage per hit and rounds needed to fire to kill) is an important factor to me.

 

Tenno in matches whine sometimes about running out of ammo. well, i might have lower 'Deeps' than some rainbow guns, but i never run out of ammo.

 

you know what your DPS without any ammo is? a resounding 0.

your effective DPS on target also goes to 0 when you're running around picking up ammo, instead of shooting.

 

i also hate spamming, but that's not the point.

 

 

oh, also, i have no regrets about using Hollow Point on a pistol. the fact that they shoot 3 bullets most of the time, means that the extra Crit Damage helps my pistol kill enemies with one shot. less DPS, but kills faster, to be honest. because on average, to shots hit for decent damage to soften the enemy up, the third shot Crits and just wipes it out.

 

 

i think calculating Hollow Point with Hornet Strike & Multishot will change the outcome of the end results a considerable bit. i love Math, but i can't be bothered to calculate between choosing mods. i compare numbers right up front, and go with my gut feeling. 

even though Pistols only have a 15% Crit Chance, the high chance for 3 projectiles being fired could really round out the statistics, since you're almost guaranteed for atleast one projectile to Crit per ammo used.

Edited October 15, 2013 by taiiat

[Tenzek]

i think calculating Hollow Point with Hornet Strike & Multishot will change the outcome of the end results a considerable bit.

 

Well, adding in multishot won't be a difference between the two builds assuming both use barrel diffusion and lethal torrent. 

 

Consider these two builds on a pistol with 15% base crit and 150% crit damage bonus:

 

#1

Magnum force

Hornet Strike

Barrel Diffusion

Lethal Torrent

 

No Return

Target Cracker

Pistol Gambit

*Hollow Point

 

#2

 

Identical to above, but without hollow point.

____________________________

 

 

If we calculate the builds with the hollow point spot empty in the build without hollow point, we see the HP build does roughly 15% more damage per individual shot. Both builds have the same multishot and rate of fire so this evens out between them. They match each other in rate shot for shot, so the DPs is also 15% higher for hollow point.

 

However, if we consider a second element in place of hollow point, the HP build now does almost 22% less damage.

 

Of course, the hollow point build would make more sense if you fought something extremely high level such that only AI damage mattered, but then you're probably not using a pistol that has 15% crit.

 

 

Other good choices to replace HP might be gunslinger, expel (bane), or ammo mutation depending on the gun and situation.

 

 

This was calculated by: Hornet Strike + Magnum Force = 286% bonus damage. Hollow point takes this to 271%.

 

Crit chance is 15% base with a 120% bonus for 33% effective crit chance.

 

Crit damage is 150% base, plus 60% *1.5 = 90% for both Target Cracker and Hollow Point. The build without HP has 2.4x crit damage, and the build with it has 3.3x crit damage.

 

My calculation was average damage per shot.

 

[edit: The forum messed up my formatting on displaying the build's mods, so I had to redo that part]

Edited October 16, 2013 by Tenzek

[taiiat]

Well, adding in multishot won't be a difference between the two builds assuming both use barrel diffusion and lethal torrent. 

 

If we calculate the builds with the hollow point spot empty in the build without hollow point, we see the HP build does roughly 15% more damage per individual shot. Both builds have the same multishot and rate of fire so this evens out between them. They match each other in rate shot for shot, so the DPs is also 15% higher for hollow point.

 

However, if we consider a second element in place of hollow point, the HP build now does almost 22% less damage.

 

My calculation was average damage per shot.

the idea is that in a performance standpoint, Hollow Point being used would mellow out a lot better with the extra Projectiles, to basically 'counter' the Crit Chance being an issue.

as seen here, this is what i'm using on Vasto currently, as an example. 

before, i had chosen some Utility(reload speed) on the Hollow Point slot instead of a rainbow card. i also hadn't used Vasto in a long time and had had Trick Mag on instead, but that's a different story. 

i had actually liked using Stunning Speed on Vasto, even if it wasn't a rainbow card, whatever. not the 'optimal' choice, but it served my purposes.

 

but, meh. i don't go for Rainbow mods unless i can't come up with a better choice, simply because elementals aren't equally effective nor are they reliable for even medium-high level enemies, let alone the super high levels. 

 

Vasto there, has a almost 100% guaranteed chance to Crit(due to Projectile density, and on a Headshot(common for me, i like accuracy), it's going to Crit for 798 with my current mods. once in a while, even all 3 projectiles will Crit for 798. *shrugs* efficiency is more important to me, and dem Crits get me that efficiency. i don't even concern myself about having 189 less bullets in my Ammo Pool, because i'm doing a crapload more damage per shot now anyways.

 

Of course, the hollow point build would make more sense if you fought something extremely high level such that only AI damage mattered, but then you're probably not using a pistol that has 15% crit.

why not o.0 

i'd still be okay using a Crit pistol at that level. but i also still don't care about 'Deeps' so my preference is based on totally different factors.

 

 

 

at the end of the day, i know it's my personal preference. but it's actually a preference to me.

Edited October 16, 2013 by taiiat

[Wolfstorm18]

OP is implying that the buff on critical damage will be applied over the nerfed normal damage, not the normal damage without the mod. That is a good question, that DE should clarify to us. Is the % extra of critical damage applied before the nerf on normal damage or after it? Because if its after it, then OP is right, and theres no need for all these tables.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Wolfstorm18

[Wolfstorm18]

Just to make things clear: Lex have 70 base damage, and 150% critical damage, that is, 105 damage (70 + 35).

 

With this mod on the first tier, Lex will have 68.5 base damage, since its 2.5% damage reduction, which for 70 is 1.75 damage.

 

Then the critical damage will have a bonus of 10%, that is, it will be 115.5 damage, since 10% of 105 is 10.5 damage.

 

What the OP is pointing out is that this specific critical damage bonus will be applied not over the original damage, but over the damage reduced by the mod.

 

So, the critical damage will not be 105, but 102.75, that is, 150% damage over 68.5 base damage.

 

And with the 10% bonus this will give us 113.025 damage. Not a good deal if we max it out and also combine with mods that increase base damage and critical damage. 

Edited October 16, 2013 by Wolfstorm18

[Tenzek]

the idea is that in a performance standpoint, Hollow Point being used would mellow out a lot better with the extra Projectiles, to basically 'counter' the Crit Chance being an issue.

The reason I did my calculations like I did was to account for that.

 

I calculated average damage per shot assuming an infinite number of shots, such that I am not considering streaks of bad crits or good ones.

 

This turns the crit damage into a pure damage bonus in the calculations.

 

 

why not o.0 

i'd still be okay using a Crit pistol at that level. but i also still don't care about 'Deeps' so my preference is based on totally different factors

 

Because none of them ignore armor. The pistols with armor ignore all have very low crit chance and don't work practically with a crit build. If you want to use a crit build, that's fine. If we're talking about what's most effective, those don't compete in the context of when armor is so high only AI damage matters.

 

Of course we don't need math to determine personal preference, but this topic is about what is actually effective.

[taiiat]

Of course we don't need math to determine personal preference, but this topic is about what is actually effective.

i just hate that everyone says X is good or bad based on DPS. that stat has a very limited foothold in Warframe. balancing around DPS won't make a balanced game. it will make one that is the same, no matter what you do or use. 

[Tenzek]

i just hate that everyone says X is good or bad based on DPS. that stat has a very limited foothold in Warframe. balancing around DPS won't make a balanced game. it will make one that is the same, no matter what you do or use. 

 

You seem to have a fundamental view of gaming that you feel is important and does not agree with how we're measuring effectiveness. That's cool, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

Maybe you should start a thread about it to see what people think, but we should stay on topic here.

[ScytheLoli]

Personally, the only things that bug me about this mod:

 

A)  It's fundamentally broken, like, actually broken.

B) Why does a mod named hollow point subtract damage? Why doesn't it just add damage but subtract a small amount of AP. You know, like actual hollow points do (to some extent)

[Darksouls40k]

you are wrong. %crit damage is a very relevant factor. Mods that gives %crit damage is not given a flat %crit damage but it gives you a %crit damage based on the base %crit damage. This is why you go from 150% critdmg to 240% crit dmg with a 60% crit dmg increase

I know I said i wouldn't post here anymore, but after I saw ur post i decided to write the basic math to explain it better

To calculate the % damage gain or lost u follow this little very basic formula which I think everyone will understand:

%DD = %DAMAGE DIFFERENCE = (FINAL DAMAGE / STANDARD DAMAGE - 1) * 100 %

For simplification purposes of this example lets just consider 6 variables ur critical chance is CC, ur base crit damage is BCD, ur base damage is BD, the mod bonus crit damage is MBCD, damage penalty is DP and damage bonuses are DB.

Standard damage = BD*(1+DB)*(1-CC)+BD*(1+DB)*CC(1+BCD) = BD*(1-CC+CC+CC*BCD) = BD*(1+DB)*(1+CC*BCD)

Final damage (without penalty) = BD*(1+DB)*(1-CC)+BD*(1+DB)*CC*(1+BCD+BCD*MBCD) =(applying same math as for standard damage u end up with an extra factor) = BD*(1+DB)*(1+CC*BCD+CC*BCD*MBCD) = BD*(1+DB)*(1+CC*BCD*(1+MBCD))

Final damage (with penalty) = BD*(1+DB-DP)*(1-CC)+BD*(1-DP)*CC*(1+BCD+BCD*MBCD) = BD*(1+DB-DP)* (1+CC*BCD*(1+MBCD))

From the basic equations I just wrote it became clear that my intuition allied with thinking devs wouldn't mess much stuff like this got the best of me and I was wrong and I apologize.

1st analyzing the formula with no penalty it becomes clear that there is a part of the equation that doesn't scale with any crit related variable...

2nd, if we examine the formula with the penalty given from hollow point, it is conclusive to say that to know the damage gained or lost we need 5 variables: the 3 crit stats + the DP + the DB stat, with the observation that both CC and BCD share the same behavioural impact (with the difference that CC is capped at 100 %)...

Based on these 2 analyzes it becomes obvious that the equation I presented in my previous post is only applicable when the MBCD and BCD tends to infinite (in other words scaling only the crit part of the formula to infinite) and assuming there isn't any other bonus crit damage mods than hollow point, with the %DD tending to the MBCD value. U have to assume u have no other mod than hollow point giving bonus crit damage value, cause due to the penalty part of the equation u could be losing more damage than u are winning (no math to prove about this point, sry, just use the basic equations and play with the 4 variables values to confirm)

As example of BD=1, DB=0, CC=100%; BCD=100%; MBCD=100% and DP=0 u get:

Final damage = 3

Standard damage = 2

%DD = 50 % gain in dps

Now only changing the BCD value of 100 % to 500 %:

Final damage = 11

Standard damage = 6

%DD = 83,3333... % gain in dps

To end the post I picked the pistol with the max CC and max BCD combination (dual vastos in this case) to know the max % damage gained right now with this mod (this part needs to be updated / corrected):

The initial damage, weapon without hollow point mod, will be given by the Final damage (without penalty) formula:

CC = 15% from weapon * 120 % from mod = 33 %

BCD = 150 %

MBCD = 60 % from target cracker

Applying the result is = BD*1,792

Now to apply the final damage, this is, to insert the hollow point mod u get:

CC = 15% from weapon * 120 % from mod = 33 %

BCD = 150 %

MBCD = 60 % from target cracker + 60 % from hollow point = total 120

DP = 15 %

Applying the result is = BD*1,77565

So using the most ideal weapon with the best ideal mods u will have a small damage decrease, about 0,9 % to be more exact because the penalty part of the mod will make u lose more damage than u would win, and this will only get worse as the bonus crit damage from non hollow point mods increases ...

 

Note: Since we are playing with 5 variables the graphic that would represent the equation 4 this mod would have 5 dimensions and therefore the method of a picture is worth a thousand words wouldnt work well, would need several :p

Edited October 16, 2013 by Darksouls40k

[BleuNoir]

Darksouls, if you want people to listen to you stop ring so condescending and stop using ad hominen attacks and start actually refuting arguments actually.

[Darksouls40k]

Darksouls, if you want people to listen to you stop ring so condescending and stop using ad hominen attacks and start actually refuting arguments actually.

U clearly didn't read my last post then... the math formulas are all there and with practical examples so the children can understand too...

[BleuNoir]

U clearly didn't read my last post then... the math formulas are all there and with practical examples so the children can understand too...

Yet these so called "children" are being respectful then you'll ever be.

Not going to bother reading you trash until you actually act less like an entitled arse.

[Darksouls40k]

Yet these so called "children" are being respectful then you'll ever be.

Not going to bother reading you trash until you actually act less like an entitled arse.

Ur loss ^^

[taiiat]

B) Why does a mod named hollow point subtract damage? Why doesn't it just add damage but subtract a small amount of AP. You know, like actual hollow points do (to some extent)

because weapons don't innately have AP. for that matter, no Pistol at all has innate AP. only  a couple Sniper Rifles do, that's it i think. 

that would make for a downside that basically doesn't affect any Pistol to any great extent, and for innate Armor Ignoring Pistols, completely uncaring, because the Armor Piercing damage isn't even 'required' for them.

[Tenzek]

Yet these so called "children" are being respectful then you'll ever be.

Not going to bother reading you trash until you actually act less like an entitled arse.

 

He said he was wrong about his initial statements and apologized. At least give him that.

 

However, he still has an oversight.

 

Final damage (with penalty) = BD*(1-DP)* (1+CC*BCD*(1+MBCD))

 

The part of the equation (1-DP) will only hold true if you assume they are not using Magnum Force or Hornet Strike. Now, it's fairly unlikely you will find someone not using Hornet Strike.

 

It should be (1 + DB - DP), where DB is the sum of the damage bonuses. These bonuses are additive, not multiplicative.

 

So in the case of  a maxed Hornet Strike with Hollow Point, it would be:

 

(1 + 2.2 - 0.15) = 3.05x base

 

With Magnum Force added in:

 

[1+ (2.2 + 0.66) - 0.15] = 3.71x base

 

Of course, without the penalty it would be 3.20x and 3.86x respectively.

 

This lessens the blow of the damage penalty, but it does not do enough to make the mod worth using.

[Darksouls40k]

He said he was wrong about his initial statements and apologized. At least give him that.

 

However, he still has an oversight.

 

 

The part of the equation (1-DP) will only hold true if you assume they are not using Magnum Force or Hornet Strike. Now, it's fairly unlikely you will find someone not using Hornet Strike.

 

It should be (1 + DB - DP), where DB is the sum of the damage bonuses. These bonuses are additive, not multiplicative.

 

So in the case of  a maxed Hornet Strike with Hollow Point, it would be:

 

(1 + 2.2 - 0.15) = 3.05x base

 

With Magnum Force added in:

 

[1+ (2.2 + 0.66) - 0.15] = 3.71x base

 

Of course, without the penalty it would be 3.20x and 3.86x respectively.

 

This lessens the blow of the damage penalty, but it does not do enough to make the mod worth using.

Thx, I will finish editing once i have 5 more minutes .P, no more 4 today ^^

[ForumSmurf]

after playing video games for so long i didn't even need math to know it was bad. Crit is not 100% rate and it only adds non multiplicative crit damage on a crit damage that's already high percentage wise. That diminishing return is super compounded.