The New "seekers" Make Me Want To Quit This Game.

[Alaric_Kerensky]

I also call for a poll on Nervos and Grinders (I have no issue with Grinders, but some clearly do so it should be included).

[ReiganCross]

Here's a sugestion... "Press X to remove Nervo". Enough said.

[Mak_Gohae]

Can you? I was under the impression that melee cannot aim vertically, no matter where you aim your crosshairs. Evidenced when destroying reactor core tubes with regular melee attacks.

Yeah, you can actually aim up with melee weapons to detroy the reactor tubes. I've destroyed Ospreys by getting under them and aiming up while swinging.But melee weapons do have different range stats so they all dont function exactly the same.

I have noticed that the Garm's charge attack cant actually hit people who are on the floor unlike the Scindo. Dont know if the Fraggor can do it either.

[CosyPigeon]

Personally I would like to see a poll. In their current state, they simply aren't fun.

[Skepsis]

Personally I would like to bump this topic to be locked. Where those of you can understand the frustration involved, and the teamwork required, there are some who think you should walk into a room and things should die in one hit. which is silly, boring and poses no challenge. The balls as they are, are in a good place. They're easily spotted, easily shot off/meleed. Nine pages of this thread should not exist. Sad how this escalated instead of the willingness to adapt.

I still stand by learn to dodge, you can even side step them, they're so easy to avoid.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Skepsis

[Zeally]

If this topic were locked, I imagine a couple hands full of people would be taken aback and assume that DE is just trying to quiet them.

Anyway, I love the balls simply becuase they can cause this many people to be in an uproar about thier function and ability to cause anger.

[Mr.Popo]

Personally I would like to bump this topic to be locked. Where those of you can understand the frustration involved, and the teamwork required, there are some who think you should walk into a room and things should die in one hit. which is silly, boring and poses no challenge. The balls as they are, are in a good place. They're easily spotted, easily shot off/meleed. Nine pages of this thread should not exist. Sad how this escalated instead of the willingness to adapt.

I still stand by learn to dodge, you can even side step them, they're so easy to avoid.

Bolded line: Nope, hitboxes are a mess and need to be fixed, but I believe they are working on that. You can approach at close range, place your crosshair directly over the thing and it will just miss completely.

The learn to dodge argument is only semi valid, it assumes that they balls are always visible, always audible and that there is only you and the ball. In the situation of large numbers of enemies in one location, such as gathering at an elevator door, the instant onslaught in such cases makes it unfair to say 'just dodge, learn2play'.

I'm not against incapacitation in principle, but in practice it's bad where the ethos of sticking together is not rigorously enforced as it would be in say Left 4 Dead. (However even in that you are allowed some degree of activity such as movement or shooting.)

A. Teammates are unreliable and frequently slow. This can be due to a number of factors, and not necessarily their fault.

B. Hitboxes are unreliable

A suggestion I previously made meets almost everyone's demands which was basically this:

Replace current incapaciball with a grabber type thing which restricts your arms. It's got a big hitbox and allows you to move to cover if needs be. It would move the same and do the same damage.

[Kadishia]

Those people rush into battle.

THINK before you do stuff -.-

[MJ12]

Those people rush into battle.

THINK before you do stuff -.-

This isn't exactly ArMA, dude. It's a game without a cover system, with accurate hipfire and guys who don't die from five bullets. It's clear DE is trying to emulate more "arcadey" third person shooters (like their own first foray into melee + guns combat, Unreal Championship 2). Instead of punishing people who get the impression that you're supposed to move quickly and hit hard (i.e. "rushing") with a loss of agency why not punish them in other ways?

Reduce their loot and XP gain, start deploying overleveled guys to ambush them, have Lotus suddenly go "it's a trap" as they run into a crossfire? Things which make it clear that you don't want to leave your team behind but at least let you DO something if you do?

Or, better yet, how about just encouraging people to stick together via combos (like fire/tech/freeze/biotic explosions in ME3) and scaling co-op difficulty with the assumption that players will work together? Positive reinforcement (when we stick together we finish the level faster) versus negative reinforcement (because as this thread shows a lot of people are getting negative reinforcement-ed out of liking the game).

At the very least let people mash X to remove them or something. It wouldn't really FIX them but at least it'd make it feel like you can do something if you get grabbed. The illusion that you CAN make things play out differently is very important.

If this topic were locked, I imagine a couple hands full of people would be taken aback and assume that DE is just trying to quiet them.

Anyway, I love the balls simply becuase they can cause this many people to be in an uproar about thier function and ability to cause anger.

I assume you're on this forum because you like the game and don't loathe the community. So why the sadism? Is it really a good thing that DE has &!$$ed people off? Especially since even assuming the dieoff here will be entirely in "casuals", those are still people, who you might like, who might become friends, who should deserve an equal chance at having fun as you do.

[Skepsis]

That's the point though, you can have fun in this game and pay attention, it's not a casual type game, though it's not a hardcore game either. the problem is, If youplay MP, you run the risk of running with people who don't know how to deal with the balls. plain and simple. The balls are in a good spot, and really, I personally, when I run with my clan, and friends, don't have an issue with them, because we team play. That's something that is either common sense, learned, or you simply don't have the capacity to move forward with. learning to adapt and overcoming is what it's trying to achieve, not a rage post on the forums.

[MJ12]

That's the point though, you can have fun in this game and pay attention, it's not a casual type game, though it's not a hardcore game either. the problem is, If youplay MP, you run the risk of running with people who don't know how to deal with the balls. plain and simple. The balls are in a good spot, and really, I personally, when I run with my clan, and friends, don't have an issue with them, because we team play. That's something that is either common sense, learned, or you simply don't have the capacity to move forward with. learning to adapt and overcoming is what it's trying to achieve, not a rage post on the forums.

I'm going to reiterate this again. I'll avoid the argument about player agency since it's clear we disagree on it, and we both agree that teamplay should be encouraged.

Games should never assume competence, especially F2P games. I didn't have to take the PSAT (Powersuit Achievement Test, not the one they give in high school) to join this game. You don't know my competence level. I could be a well-meaning bumbling idiot, or an A******, or a troll. You can't rely on me. So now what? You end up only playing with dudes you know. Or you end up demanding everyone be ridiculously overgeared. I played DCUO a lot, and I must say the inability to have any sort of fun in a pug Alert or Raid 99% of the time killed that game for me when our clan broke up due to ~Internet Drama~.

A game dev in this case has three choices: The first is to accept this and make content which requires not-being-an-idiot largely optional. The second is to hope that the people who play because the game is "hardcore" or whatever make up for the idiots who spend money. The third is to make mechanics that make being an idiot less detrimental because even a moron can contribute somewhat to a team.

The first would be DCUO, in a way (you only NEEDED competent groups for the absolute endgame content), the second would be... I don't know, I don't have any examples off the top of my head, and the third is ME3MP.

I think the last one is a good example to look at though since it is a co-op RPG/shooter with upgradeable character abilities and weapons.

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm going to reiterate this again. I'll avoid the argument about player agency since it's clear we disagree on it, and we both agree that teamplay should be encouraged.

Games should never assume competence, especially F2P games. I didn't have to take the PSAT (Powersuit Achievement Test, not the one they give in high school) to join this game. You don't know my competence level. I could be a well-meaning bumbling idiot, or an A******, or a troll. You can't rely on me. So now what? You end up only playing with dudes you know. Or you end up demanding everyone be ridiculously overgeared. I played DCUO a lot, and I must say the inability to have any sort of fun in a pug Alert or Raid 99% of the time killed that game for me when our clan broke up due to ~Internet Drama~.

A game dev in this case has three choices: The first is to accept this and make content which requires not-being-an-idiot largely optional. The second is to hope that the people who play because the game is "hardcore" or whatever make up for the idiots who spend money. The third is to make mechanics that make being an idiot less detrimental because even a moron can contribute somewhat to a team.

The first would be DCUO, in a way (you only NEEDED competent groups for the absolute endgame content), the second would be... I don't know, I don't have any examples off the top of my head, and the third is ME3MP.

I think the last one is a good example to look at though since it is a co-op RPG/shooter with upgradeable character abilities and weapons.

This happens in ALL online games, like you say, not everyone has that much common sense so outside of the game playing itself there wont ever be a point where a PUG would be better than playing with friends in any sort of regularity. So trying to compensate is just useless, this is why it's essentially the job a experienced player to inform the less experience to, hopefully, build a better population.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[MJ12]

This happens in ALL online games, like you say, not everyone has that much common sense so outside of the game playing itself there wont ever be a point where a PUG would be better than playing with friends in any sort of regularity. So trying to compensate is just useless, this is why it's essentially the job a experienced player to inform the less experience to, hopefully, build a better population.

Trying to compensate isn't useless, it means that playing without friends isn't a slog. Playing with pubbies doesn't have to be 'better than playing with friends', it just doesn't have to be like pulling teeth. Right now, Nervos make it so that it's basically like pulling teeth. This is bad because it means you don't go outside of your friend circle, it means you're less likely to have people you want to multi with online at any given time, and this effectively lowers the game's population, which means people are more likely to leave.

You are awfully attached to the idea of stunlocks. Like I said, I have no objection over 'encouraging teamplay'. I have an objection to the specific method because it is extremely binary and unfun if your teammates are dummkopfs, which means I end up playing Solo basically 100% of the time now when my friends aren't online. And because I have a full-time job and live in a different timezone to the ones who are interestedi n this game I end up being online when they're asleep. And this sucks.

Mak_Gohae, please remember that you aren't the only person the game has to cater to, and that there are plenty of people like me. And there are plenty of terrible pubbies who, although I might personally loathe them, may end up spending money on this game and thus benefitting me. And I want as many of those guys as possible because it means the game will have more success which means more updates which means more cool stuff for me.

[Zeally]

I dont think anyone has posted to the effect that they are awefully attached to the idea of stunlocks. Its more to the idea of that the balls force people to come together to overcome thier ability to stop someone dead in thier tracks and more than likely cause thier demise. I'm all down for changes to the ball where the player effected can remove the problem over time, or atleast have some way of getting out of danger. But its the posts that specifically state that the balls are completely 100% unfun or break the game that others, as well as myself, cannot agree with. Specifically the ones wanting them removed from the game.

Sure, game developers have to cater to all walks of people, but they can't do it so much that it takes away from the time where they can move on and create more content. If they remove the Nervo balls, then there's nothing keeping players working together, and as it is, there isnt much doing that anyawy.

In all honesty, I dont think anyone in this topic can specifically say how much the Seeker balls are effecting Warframe's profitability, aside from DE themselves.

[MJ12]

I dont think anyone has posted to the effect that they are awefully attached to the idea of stunlocks. Its more to the idea of that the balls force people to come together to overcome thier ability to stop someone dead in thier tracks and more than likely cause thier demise. I'm all down for changes to the ball where the player effected can remove the problem over time, or atleast have some way of getting out of danger. But its the posts that specifically state that the balls are completely 100% unfun or break the game that others, as well as myself, cannot agree with. Specifically the ones wanting them removed from the game.

Sure, game developers have to cater to all walks of people, but they can't do it so much that it takes away from the time where they can move on and create more content. If they remove the Nervo balls, then there's nothing keeping players working together, and as it is, there isnt much doing that anyawy.

In all honesty, I dont think anyone in this topic can specifically say how much the Seeker balls are effecting Warframe's profitability, aside from DE themselves.

What I'm saying is that a bad mechanic with a good intention is still a bad mechanic. And frankly, I'd prefer it if people didn't have to work together than if you had a bad mechanic that tried to force people to work together.

The thing about bad mechanics is that they don't really do what they're intended to do well, and Nervos don't. They just mean the entire team gets stunlocked, or your pubbie partners ignore you when you're doing the Electric Slide because they're morons. Something that encouraged teamplay (i.e. positive reinforcement) instead of punishing rushing (negative reinforcement) would probably work better here. Make the negative reinforcement 'scaling enemies up for having four players instead of 1', because that's more legitimate than stunlocks (and way more fun) and the positive reinforcement "if you guys stick together you kill things faster and finish the level more quickly."

The guys running ahead just want to blitz through the level. If you set up MP games so that the less people blitz ahead the less time it takes for them to finish (for example, the game procedurally generates rooms. You could, maybe, set it up so that you reach the objective after [X] total rooms, which means a guy who rushes ahead is gonna have to cover a hell of a lot of ground to actually get any benefit) you'll remove the rushing.

And that doesn't require a single stunlock.

[Mak_Gohae]

Trying to compensate isn't useless, it means that playing without friends isn't a slog. Playing with pubbies doesn't have to be 'better than playing with friends', it just doesn't have to be like pulling teeth. Right now, Nervos make it so that it's basically like pulling teeth. This is bad because it means you don't go outside of your friend circle, it means you're less likely to have people you want to multi with online at any given time, and this effectively lowers the game's population, which means people are more likely to leave.

So changing that one thing is going to solve all these problems?

Unlikely.

You are awfully attached to the idea of stunlocks. Like I said, I have no objection over 'encouraging teamplay'. I have an objection to the specific method because it is extremely binary and unfun if your teammates are dummkopfs, which means I end up playing Solo basically 100% of the time now when my friends aren't online. And because I have a full-time job and live in a different timezone to the ones who are interestedi n this game I end up being online when they're asleep. And this sucks.

Im not attached but saying you are not playing the game because of the chance that you might end up with a team that does help is a bit too out there. You cant even type a few words to change that situation? Is not like you need to solve some algebra puzzle you just need to hit a little ball and search of the Grineer in lime armor.

Mak_Gohae, please remember that you aren't the only person the game has to cater to, and that there are plenty of people like me. And there are plenty of terrible pubbies who, although I might personally loathe them, may end up spending money on this game and thus benefitting me. And I want as many of those guys as possible because it means the game will have more success which means more updates which means more cool stuff for me.

Yes, DO remember you are not the only person and that there are plenty of people like me.

I'm not saying they shouldnt adjust it im just saying to stop acting like this is the only thing that is stopping you or anyone from playing because that is all just too silly.

[MJ12]

So changing that one thing is going to solve all these problems?

Unlikely.

Actually, yes. This is the only mechanic which demands that you play with people who know at least a little bit about the game or else you stop having fun. The other mechanics are either independent of players (Infested stunlock, bosses being huge meat walls) or not problematic at all (msot other things). Fact is, it is quite possible for one terribly thought-out mechanic to have massive consequences.

Im not attached but saying you are not playing the game because of the chance that you might end up with a team that does help is a bit too out there. You cant even type a few words to change that situation? Is not like you need to solve some algebra puzzle you just need to hit a little ball and search of the Grineer in lime armor.

Remind me why I should play with pubbies again? It's both easier and less fun. Shockingly enough, I do like a challenge. I just don't like it in the form of agency-removing mechanics which put you at the mercy of the RNG/pubbies. Having to plow through Solo is actually pretty fun. So there's the rub. It doesn't actually make the game harder either.

Anyways, the other point is that a lot of people don't like having to rely on others for various reasons. Making mechanics which force this (instead of making mechanics which make teamplay mutually beneficial in a positive fashion) are more likely than not to engender resentment and poor reviews of the game, rather than creating the intended result. Given this thread's existence, I think the grand experiment that is the Nervo has failed miserably. People still seem to be rushing the missions and all this has done is make more than a few players really angry.

Yes, DO remember you are not the only person and that there are plenty of people like me.

I'm not saying they shouldnt adjust it im just saying to stop acting like this is the only thing that is stopping you or anyone from playing because that is all just too silly.

Yes, except "I can stand it" is not actually an endorsement. That means you don't mind it. If you don't mind it, and other people do mind it, you shouldn't be defending it. You're the one who's being arrogant here, by insisting because you don't mind something everyone else has to abide by it. If you're going to argue for something, you should at the very least feel strongly that they're a good idea in and of themselves, not just because you like something as vague as 'challenge' or 'teamwork'.

I don't mind the current levelup system. When DE wanted to nuke it I didn't go 'THIS IS TOTALLY ALL RIGHT WHY U CHANGE' because, well, I only didn't mind it. You seem to be rabidly defending something you don't even care about that much and I have no idea why.

[Skepsis]

You should probably reconsider your standpoint good sir. the point of playing with others it to experience things on a more diverse basis. Problem is, if you would rather get mad at people instead of helping them learn is not only make it bad on you, but I'd rather not have people in the community like that. Personally. as I have stated countless times, it makes you adapt to the situation, it's not something you need to pass a test for, it's not something you need to be a boss at TPS, or even FPS, It's just there to throw a curveball into MP. And it works brilliantly. Best awareness? INFORM YOUR TEAM. The point is, It's a mechanic that is thrown in there, to add just a smige to difficulty. And I DO care about the balls, and I hope they stay. In fact, I hope they make a Ball Boss. because it's just that well implimented. and if you get stunned and can't dodge it? You have team mates, that is how multiplayer works by the way... for those of you who are having a hard time grasping this concept.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Skepsis

[Gestalt]

I don't mind the current levelup system. When DE wanted to nuke it I didn't go 'THIS IS TOTALLY ALL RIGHT WHY U CHANGE' because, well, I only didn't mind it. You seem to be rabidly defending something you don't even care about that much and I have no idea why.

That's just how it is with most people. They find something they do better than others, and they prefer it to stay that way. Have to confess I have that kind of feeling sometimes. It can even be something that is terrible and a bad mechanic and a player can hate it, but some circumstances (usually either that said player has conquered said mechanic or has learned to successfully navigate under its presence) might still warrant the player lobbying against its removal, through pure selfishness, unfortunately.

Fast example: The original vanila WoW pvp system. I got to rank 14 (grand marshal) on my hunter under it; got all the GM-only weapons. It took me 34 (yes, I counted) weeks of basically working a 2nd job (8~ hours of play a day) to get to that rank. Come the first expansion, they made all rewards obtainable via pvp ranks available for all players through trivial means. I was bitter yes, but even I agreed that the original pvp system rewarded time investment, instead of anything resembling "skill."

Not the best example, but if someone would defend the removal of a universally agreed TERRIBLE game mechanic/system, in order to keep feeling "better" or "superior" (lol), imagine when that mechanic/system isn't completely horribad (like the nervos).

[Mak_Gohae]

Actually, yes. This is the only mechanic which demands that you play with people who know at least a little bit about the game or else you stop having fun. The other mechanics are either independent of players (Infested stunlock, bosses being huge meat walls) or not problematic at all (msot other things). Fact is, it is quite possible for one terribly thought-out mechanic to have massive consequences.

What exactly you do need to know about the game to stop this?

You are clearly told some one is in danger and when you get to him you are clearly shown a waypoint on the person.

This is EXTREMELY more clear than anything else in the game. Whether a person helps you or not is up to them but this is not, again, an algebra problem. Hell, reviving a person is more difficult to learn than this.

And i hardly think that this is going to solve any actual pub problems,the only that clearly comes to mind is that a person can now freely leave the rest of the group to do their own thing.

Remind me why I should play with pubbies again? It's both easier and less fun. Shockingly enough, I do like a challenge. I just don't like it in the form of agency-removing mechanics which put you at the mercy of the RNG/pubbies. Having to plow through Solo is actually pretty fun. So there's the rub. It doesn't actually make the game harder either.

It's for teamplay which you obviously dont like.

Anyways, the other point is that a lot of people don't like having to rely on others for various reasons. Making mechanics which force this (instead of making mechanics which make teamplay mutually beneficial in a positive fashion) are more likely than not to engender resentment and poor reviews of the game, rather than creating the intended result. Given this thread's existence, I think the grand experiment that is the Nervo has failed miserably. People still seem to be rushing the missions and all this has done is make more than a few players really angry.

And this is pretty much a standard "i hate X thing" post at this point cause we got all the standards here.

If this is here it means people will leave/bad worth of mouth/bad reviews.

This thread means "A VAST number of people hate it"

You already added previously "I am not playing because of X"

And the best part is the ending.... where you CLEARLY show that this is simply about not being able to rush through a stage.

Yes, except "I can stand it" is not actually an endorsement. That means you don't mind it. If you don't mind it, and other people do mind it, you shouldn't be defending it. You're the one who's being arrogant here, by insisting because you don't mind something everyone else has to abide by it. If you're going to argue for something, you should at the very least feel strongly that they're a good idea in and of themselves, not just because you like something as vague as 'challenge' or 'teamwork'.

I don't mind the current levelup system. When DE wanted to nuke it I didn't go 'THIS IS TOTALLY ALL RIGHT WHY U CHANGE' because, well, I only didn't mind it. You seem to be rabidly defending something you don't even care about that much and I have no idea why.

When did the words "i dont mind" appear in my post?

Really.... im confused.

You are replying to a part of my post where i say it's silly to say you are not playing the game because of the CHANCE that a pub might have people that wont get to you post haste. Which is probably ignoring several facts like the people might be clearing the area of enemies, the people might be chasing the Seeker to kill, or something else.

[MJ12]

What exactly you do need to know about the game to stop this?

You are clearly told some one is in danger and when you get to him you are clearly shown a waypoint on the person.

This is EXTREMELY more clear than anything else in the game. Whether a person helps you or not is up to them but this is not, again, an algebra problem. Hell, reviving a person is more difficult to learn than this.

And i hardly think that this is going to solve any actual pub problems,the only that clearly comes to mind is that a person can now freely leave the rest of the group to do their own thing.

And yet I got left to die with depressing regularity. You know what? If people aren't going to play as a team, the only thing that's going to stop them is them feeling like they should play with a team. Nervo TPKs weren't and aren't exactly a one-off oddity here.

It's for teamplay which you obviously dont like.

I do like teamplay. I play with friends all the time because that's a fun social game. I don't think I should be forced into 'teamplay' because someone decided that "co-op" means "HAVE TO STAY CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE OTHER PLAYERS TO SMELL THEIR FARTS" arbitrarily, and I certainly shouldn't be forced into it by lame enemies whose sole tool to punish you for going just a little too far is 'NO YOU DO NOT GET TO PLAY THIS GAME WE HATE YOU F*** OFF'. And really the way nervos work doesn't actually encourage 'teamplay', it encourages everyone balling up together in the same room which looks vaguely like teamplay but doesn't actually act even slightly like it.

It just means everyone is in the same room being a giant blob of bullets. Does that actually make the game more teamplay-oriented? No, it doesn't. Teamplay comes from mechanics that synergize with each other, from roles with synergies that work with each other. Biotic/Tech/Fire/Ice explosions in ME3 probably do way more for teamplay than the possibility of sync kills ever did.

And you're starting ad hominem attacks now too. How classy. "This guy thinks there are far better ways to encourage teamwork, like... actual teamwork mechanics. He states he's frustrated about how agency-removing enemies like Nervos simultaneously do an absolutely awful job at encouraging teamwork and there are way better mechanics, like increased enemy count and more powerful enemies for teams. CLEARLY HE HATES ALL TEAMWORK." seems to be your actual thought process.

Amusingly enough, one of the most fun co-op games is the original Halo. It had not a single enemy which could take away your control and required your buddy to help you. It had not a single mechanic that forced you to 'stick together'. And it worked. We never asked for this feature, and unlike Adam Jensen's cyborg arms it doesn't do anything helpful. People will play co-op without an enemy that goes "STICK WITHIN TWO ROOMS OF EACH OTHER OR YOU INSTANTLY DIE" or something if they want to. If they want to rush, people are going to rush.

And this is pretty much a standard "i hate X thing" post at this point cause we got all the standards here.

If this is here it means people will leave/bad worth of mouth/bad reviews.

This thread means "A VAST number of people hate it"

You already added previously "I am not playing because of X"

And the best part is the ending.... where you CLEARLY show that this is simply about not being able to rush through a stage.

Yeah, yeah, turns out people still are rushing stages anyways and I've been frustrated more by Nervos because I've joined a game-in-progress and nobody bothered to wait than because I ran off ahead...because I don't actually rush stages. Or because people didn't pay attention to chat. Or because even when they do help you, turns out, being stuck for ten seconds being incapable of doing anything is completely unfun. Even ME3 lets you mash buttons when downed to extend your bleed-out duration. This doesn't actually mean much but it gives you the impression of doing something. And that's important. And the amazing hilarity here is they get downed states so right (they let you crawl around and shoot while downed, meaning even if you get your face shot off in MP you can do something, which is fun) and then proceed to s**t all over it with mechanics which imply that their brilliant initial core design was a fluke.

It's a "standard I hate X thing" post because, maybe this might blow your mind, "I hate X thing" is sometimes the only valid response you have. I can explain why they're terrible from a game design standpoint but people don't want to listen to that, so I'll just go back to saying that I hate them, plenty of other people hate them, and I see a lot of posters who seem to have disappeared like Ced23Ric and lamiadomina, possibly because of things like this that they've complained about and have never had their complaints addressed.

How many people are going to leave if they remove Nervos? I'm going to guess the answer is zero. All they add is frustration. People keep claiming they like them, like Skepsis, but really I think what they like there is schadenfreude, the idea that other people are suffering and they aren't and that makes them happy-the ability to smugly flaunt their superiority over the common lowly player who suffers from Nervos and hates them. The fact that he thinks the proper answer to a mechanic that many people hate is 'add more of it' just adds credence to that theory.

How many people are going to leave if they don't? The answer is more than one. Lots of people are angry about Nervos and the overuse of agency-removing enemies in general. So yes, people aren't exactly going to be polite about it.

When did the words "i dont mind" appear in my post?

Really.... im confused.

You are replying to a part of my post where i say it's silly to say you are not playing the game because of the CHANCE that a pub might have people that wont get to you post haste. Which is probably ignoring several facts like the people might be clearing the area of enemies, the people might be chasing the Seeker to kill, or something else.

Oh, I'm still playing. I'm just not playing multiplayer with people I don't know. Turns out a feature that only adds annoyance and frustration with no actual reward for the annoyance and frustration annoys and frustrates people! How shocking! And yes, I think 'you don't mind' them, because I don't see you going around talking about how stunlock is an awesome mechanic and people should love the idea that they can have their control taken away from them forever because of one wrong move.

If I wanted that experience I'd have joined the military and gone into Afghanistan. As a bonus, I'd get more of that lovely lovely boredom of sitting around doing nothing that seems to be the pinnacle of fun in certain people's eyes.

Edited March 7, 2013 by MJ12

[Chocobo]

If you're defending it, you're for it.

'I don't mind' is just a wishy-washy way to try to take part in a debate without having to express an actual concrete stance. Usually due to a lack of actual points worth defending or of substance.

It's a terrible and amateur enemy design using false difficulty.

There is no better reason to remove it.

Why not make railgun moa kill you in one hit, unrevivable? The shot is easy enough to dodge. That'd add plenty of challenge.

Lets make the exploding infested destroy equipment and you need platinum to fix it. That'd really make them a tough challenge! Get through a stage with no equipment after one or two mistakes!

yeah, look at all this great challenge. I just made Warframe 10x as hard with my excellent enemy design*.

* Protip: This isn't excellent design. This is extremely poor design. Much like the stun balls.

[CapricaSix]

If they remove the electric Latchers after all this negative feedback and leave the Grinders as they are, I'm gonna skin some more puppies...

With some wishful thinking, I'm still desperately hoping that all these ball type enemies are only some really awkward placeholders and not just a cheap creation of some lazy designers :P no offense, but balls.

@Chocobo: +1 on the effort but it has been said a couple of times in this thread already {I agree though}, and some people will always love such features that makes the game less enjoyable for others while they're not affected simply because of their own playstyle, and then just boast and brag about their awesome superior "skills". I honestly don't think there's anything left to be said on this, it's like beating a dead horse,

we just need a poll.

Edited March 7, 2013 by CapricaSix

[neKroMancer]

Update7note: add nano size, invisible, invincible ball of stunlock to increase teamplay. Unleash entire clip of Gorgon to release your friend :D

Edited March 7, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Mak_Gohae]

And yet I got left to die with depressing regularity. You know what? If people aren't going to play as a team, the only thing that's going to stop them is them feeling like they should play with a team. Nervo TPKs weren't and aren't exactly a one-off oddity here.

You can type and tell folks not to leave you to die. Or the next time you see a ball climb a box and let some one else get caught and let them die. They will probably learn with that.

I do like teamplay. I play with friends all the time because that's a fun social game. I don't think I should be forced into 'teamplay' because someone decided that "co-op" means "HAVE TO STAY CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE OTHER PLAYERS TO SMELL THEIR FARTS" arbitrarily, and I certainly shouldn't be forced into it by lame enemies whose sole tool to punish you for going just a little too far is 'NO YOU DO NOT GET TO PLAY THIS GAME WE HATE YOU F*** OFF'. And really the way nervos work doesn't actually encourage 'teamplay', it encourages everyone balling up together in the same room which looks vaguely like teamplay but doesn't actually act even slightly like it.

It just means everyone is in the same room being a giant blob of bullets. Does that actually make the game more teamplay-oriented? No, it doesn't. Teamplay comes from mechanics that synergize with each other, from roles with synergies that work with each other. Biotic/Tech/Fire/Ice explosions in ME3 probably do way more for teamplay than the possibility of sync kills ever did.

And you're starting ad hominem attacks now too. How classy. "This guy thinks there are far better ways to encourage teamwork, like... actual teamwork mechanics. He states he's frustrated about how agency-removing enemies like Nervos simultaneously do an absolutely awful job at encouraging teamwork and there are way better mechanics, like increased enemy count and more powerful enemies for teams. CLEARLY HE HATES ALL TEAMWORK." seems to be your actual thought process.

The start of this quote how you saying you like co-op but dont like co-op at the same time.

I dont need to ad hominem anything.... you state this yourself.

Amusingly enough, one of the most fun co-op games is the original Halo. It had not a single enemy which could take away your control and required your buddy to help you. It had not a single mechanic that forced you to 'stick together'. And it worked. We never asked for this feature, and unlike Adam Jensen's cyborg arms it doesn't do anything helpful. People will play co-op without an enemy that goes "STICK WITHIN TWO ROOMS OF EACH OTHER OR YOU INSTANTLY DIE" or something if they want to. If they want to rush, people are going to rush.

Halo is an FPS,

Yeah, yeah, turns out people still are rushing stages anyways and I've been frustrated more by Nervos because I've joined a game-in-progress and nobody bothered to wait than because I ran off ahead...because I don't actually rush stages. Or because people didn't pay attention to chat. Or because even when they do help you, turns out, being stuck for ten seconds being incapable of doing anything is completely unfun. Even ME3 lets you mash buttons when downed to extend your bleed-out duration. This doesn't actually mean much but it gives you the impression of doing something. And that's important. And the amazing hilarity here is they get downed states so right (they let you crawl around and shoot while downed, meaning even if you get your face shot off in MP you can do something, which is fun) and then proceed to s**t all over it with mechanics which imply that their brilliant initial core design was a fluke.

This game isnt ME.

It's a "standard I hate X thing" post because, maybe this might blow your mind, "I hate X thing" is sometimes the only valid response you have. I can explain why they're terrible from a game design standpoint but people don't want to listen to that, so I'll just go back to saying that I hate them, plenty of other people hate them, and I see a lot of posters who seem to have disappeared like Ced23Ric and lamiadomina, possibly because of things like this that they've complained about and have never had their complaints addressed.

There i people here that dont totally hate them. Look for the post.

How many people are going to leave if they remove Nervos? I'm going to guess the answer is zero. All they add is frustration. People keep claiming they like them, like Skepsis, but really I think what they like there is schadenfreude, the idea that other people are suffering and they aren't and that makes them happy-the ability to smugly flaunt their superiority over the common lowly player who suffers from Nervos and hates them. The fact that he thinks the proper answer to a mechanic that many people hate is 'add more of it' just adds credence to that theory.

How many people are going to leave if they don't? The answer is more than one. Lots of people are angry about Nervos and the overuse of agency-removing enemies in general. So yes, people aren't exactly going to be polite about it.

And the people that stay are going to learn to deal with them.

Oh, I'm still playing. I'm just not playing multiplayer with people I don't know. Turns out a feature that only adds annoyance and frustration with no actual reward for the annoyance and frustration annoys and frustrates people! How shocking! And yes, I think 'you don't mind' them, because I don't see you going around talking about how stunlock is an awesome mechanic and people should love the idea that they can have their control taken away from them forever because of one wrong move.

Lol that's funny, anything else you want to tell me about me?

I do have a problem with the amount of balls the Seeker drops, i thinks its too often, but until it's change you have to adjust. Avoiding the situation and going nuts about it instead of finding propper ways to help the Devs isn't going to do anything. Saying, "take it away becasue i am not playing." Really means nothing.