The New "seekers" Make Me Want To Quit This Game.

[Gestalt]

Taking control away from the player = bad

Small and fast enemies = good

The age-old wisdom.

I'm thinking the block mechanic the devs hinted at during the q&a would somewhat solve the lazy stun/stagger mechanic. I think they were saying that if you have enough stamina, you can pull into a block animation by hittng some keys, and that'll help you break out of it. Myabe that's why they removed roll from the V key: to free up a key for the block?

[Skepsis]

It's funny that this thread filled with so many tears again, The ball is not infinite, It's a team play mechanic, if you do not like it, or the people you play with are too damned stupid to pay attention to them, that's on you, and them. [that is, if you're one of the people having a problem with them.] They're easily avoided, can shoot/melee them off, or even ult them in dire situations. They work as intended, you're stunned, until the duration expires, or your friend comes and saves you. They're not in single player. and they're not OP in any sense. It's the only enemy crowd control out there. Other than one of the bosses. Personally they've never been an issue with me, my friends, or my team. If you play with people that care about working together, there's no issue. 7 pages of Baw, +1 to all defense of the balls.

[neKroMancer]

It's funny that this thread filled with so many tears again, The ball is not infinite, It's a team play mechanic, if you do not like it, or the people you play with are too damned stupid to pay attention to them, that's on you, and them. [that is, if you're one of the people having a problem with them.] They're easily avoided, can shoot/melee them off, or even ult them in dire situations. They work as intended, you're stunned, until the duration expires, or your friend comes and saves you. They're not in single player. and they're not OP in any sense. It's the only enemy crowd control out there. Other than one of the bosses. Personally they've never been an issue with me, my friends, or my team. If you play with people that care about working together, there's no issue. 7 pages of Baw, +1 to all defense of the balls.

In Solo mode, it's easy since there're mechanic to avoid them. However, the duration is definitely too long and the coop mode. They're literally suck all your shield, all of it before explode.

A good coop enemy design require group players to tackle them from different angle or have multiple defense that vulnerable to specific type of element. I woudn't call ME3MP Geth faction a well-designed faction when all they do is stagger/stun player.

Scott is evil :D

[Zevkk]

For me, they're only a pain when there's 5+ seekers in the same room and all they're doing is tossing the balls. Whenever I see that, I've just started to instinctively use my 4th skill, because I don't feel like dealing with it. If they had a cooldown on how often they could toss them, they wouldn't be nearly as bad. It just seems that as soon as one is destroyed or lands on you, they throw another one. I do agree that the MP stun is a bit too long, especially if you're in the line of fire when one hits you and your team-mates have no idea how to get it off of you in time. However, that's very much an over-extending/teamwork issue.

The blade balls are manageable and even a bit fun.

[CapricaSix]

The blade balls are manageable and even a bit fun.

You must be joking... their whole purpose is to interrupt you from whatever you're doing, how is that in any way fun?

[Ayahuasca]

you can make things harder without makeing stupid mobs like the balls honestly the second i saw the mob i stoped playing for a good while took the fun out of playing especialy solo. Honestly they have been makeing alot of changes sence i first started but alot of them have not made the game better at all. Just frustrateing plus soloing now is a joke they might as well just make the game full coop and not even have solo mode sence soloing with the balls and like 15 heavys in one room is pretty lame. yes its a coop game but they still should make soloing fun it used to be fun now it is not. plus the fact that there is rarely people on the time your on or the mission your on to play with. Which basicly forces you to solo.

[Mak_Gohae]

you can make things harder without makeing stupid mobs like the balls honestly the second i saw the mob i stoped playing for a good while took the fun out of playing especialy solo. Honestly they have been makeing alot of changes sence i first started but alot of them have not made the game better at all. Just frustrateing plus soloing now is a joke they might as well just make the game full coop and not even have solo mode sence soloing with the balls and like 15 heavys in one room is pretty lame. yes its a coop game but they still should make soloing fun it used to be fun now it is not. plus the fact that there is rarely people on the time your on or the mission your on to play with. Which basicly forces you to solo.

In solo mode dont they just throw the explosive kind?

Edited March 4, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Sollet]

Huh I thought the seekers didn't appear in solo or at least they don't have the stun balls.

[Demonocolips]

funny thing is in single player their a minor annoyance. do little damage and dont seem to stun. i mostly solo so when i faced them in multiplayer and i got stunned i just thought wtf this is a terrible idea for gameplay. if this was real life they would make sense and even in the game they do have a balancing point.

my main concern is just that their so damned hard to hit with anything shockwaves only have a chance in a blue moon to hit them and if their latched onto someone it gets even harder to hit them because hitboxes intersect and for some reason puncture weapons and the large multihit weapons have a pain trying to hit them.

[Brasten]

You must be joking... their whole purpose is to interrupt you from whatever you're doing, how is that in any way fun?

Lets put this in perspective. The stun/knock-around that the big bladed balls do is fairly short. You can dodge them, you can kill them. Often you can even hear them coming. On the scale of Bad to Good, they rate a Meh. They are the correct level of frustration/difficulty or near to it. They would be helped if we had a block or dodge roll we could use to avoid getting stunned, you know as SKILL move, but I'm sure that will come.

The Blue electric stun balls are not. They are very hard to see coming (especially in laggy games). Their small size lets them hide in crowds like mines, this reduces the "me badass leaping melee ninja" aspect of the game. An Ash or Loki who drops into the middle of Grineer squad to cut them apart with sword or axe, and then gets instantly stunlocked by a little ball they couldn't see around the corner fired off by a Seeker in the next room, is now getting punished for exactly the kind of play that is encourage as a feature of this game. He now gets killed by trash he would have swept while forcing his teammates to rush in and save him, with dozens of melee weapons swings... oh which also puts them all in a tight little group to get stunballed themselves.

I've seen it happen more then enough where someone goes to help a stunned buddy only to get stunned themselves either as they are swinging madly or shortly after. As I've said, you've now punished 2+ players for 1 screwup. Bad mechanic in a team game.

I disagree with Scott that splitting the community means the Stunballs are a good design. You can split a community over very stupid things. Players are quitting over this, which means their voice isn't heard on the feedback forum.

Huh I thought the seekers didn't appear in solo or at least they don't have the stun balls.

The stun balls are not fired in Solo. Why? Because they'd break the game without teammates. This should raise all kinds of flags about how bad and frankly stupid this mechanic is. If an enemy has to be completely omitted from Solo play because it would totally wreak play, then its design is inherently flawed.

The Seeker fires two kinds. Stun and Exploding. Stun is removed from solo and they seem to drop noting but Stun in Co-Op Exploding balls are almost a joke, they do virtually no damage. Actually I think I've just stood around with no enemies left and actually taken 0 damage to my shields from them.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Brasten

[redregon]

Honestly, I do see where the frustration happens but if i may suggest a potential solution?

Give the player some way to have a little window of opportunity. So, say these stun-balls attach to you, you have maybe 2 seconds to roll to get them off before they'll stun you.

Also, the duration is a bit harsh i think... last time i played and got stuck by one, it looked like it was trying to stun me for 30+ seconds. in multiplayer with a large squad that isn't such a hassle since a team-mate can get it off of me but if my squad is somewhere else (such as if i've lagged behind or they've lagged behind) the duration to me means that if i get one on me and there's a large enough crowd of enemies, it's basically a guaranteed death. I would suggest instead of it being 30+ seconds, make the stun 10 seconds. that's still enough time to keep the tension high because you can take a LOT of damage in that time (maybe even enough to kill you) but if it's one or two grineer that you're up against, it may not be enough to be a guaranteed death.

So, my suggestions to TLDR it would be:

-give it a charge up time so that players with fast reflexes can dislodge them (and maybe an indicator on the screen telling us that we've got one on us)

-lower the duration.

I don't mind them being in there because it does keep me on my toes but right now i think they're a little OP.

Also, another suggestion... maybe instead of paralyzing you, it merely slows you down to a very slow speed and/or prevents you from firing your weapons? even more-so, if this is an avenue to pursue, something to keep the tension really, REALLY high, if you've got one on you, maybe make your shield inneffective or severely weakened so that the enemies basically get a free %50 armour-piercing bonus when you're stunned? (this would be if it doesn't completely paralyse us though.)

Edited March 4, 2013 by redregon

[CapricaSix]

Lets put this in perspective. The stun/knock-around that the big bladed balls do is fairly short. You can dodge them, you can kill them. Often you can even hear them coming. On the scale of Bad to Good, they rate a Meh. They are the correct level of frustration/difficulty or near to it. They would be helped if we had a block or dodge roll we could use to avoid getting stunned, you know as SKILL move, but I'm sure that will come.

Sure, when it's only one at a time, but when there are balls all around plus regular enemies swarming the room you're in..? Who'd want to bother with that?! It's not exactly difficult, just incredibly annoying!

From a personal stand point I can say with confidence that they're easy to avoid, easy to kill if you ignore everything else around you, even easy to ignore and either be forced to go on a speed run or just retreat and take care of the balls first {since they constantly follow you while Grineer are more organised}

It's just a nonsense enemy type, I'm not sure if even giving them 1HP would justify their existence in the game. Grinders don't really keep you from speedrunning, they don't promote teamwork, they don't harm anyone so much, they just roll around back and forth and annoy people. I just.. can't.. stand it.. die, DIE! >;o

I disagree with Scott that splitting the community means the Stunballs are a good design. You can split a community over very stupid things. Players are quitting over this, which means their voice isn't heard on the feedback forum.

+1 for that one. Whoever said "bad advertisement is still advertisement" lied ...even if it doesn't apply in this case >:| lol

[reggs12]

They have a timer in multiplayer now. It's kinda fun running away from them now knowing you won't be permanently CC'd if you fail. I feel this issue has been resolved. Lock up the thread! ;p

[Oktalz]

Huh I thought the seekers didn't appear in solo or at least they don't have the stun balls.

They are in solo and they don´t throw stuns... only explosive ones that you just have to roll to make them fall off.

You are correct.

[S3riaL]

i wouldn't be surprised if the enemies on update 7 would be more annoying than the current enemies

Yeah more challenge I like the sound of that.

People cry against that, let me laught you want challenge go play this game without using any mods.

I did and I make it all the way to the higher level and I never complained about it.

(I didnt done it for challenge I did it because I didnt knew that you had to drag and drop those mods)

But I dont regret that cus it give me so much.

I ll just say one thing, Practice Makes Perfect

[Chocobo]

I wouldn't call having a stun ball clip through a corner of a wall or otherwise slip down a railing to be a 'challenge', especially when it means losing control.

Ever play actual good action games? DMC? Bayonetta? Vanquish? How often do you lose control of your character...? Oh right, never. Unless you actively mess something up.

It's not that the enemies are even challenging. They are just annoying and an unfun design. Much like disruptors. The best parts of the game are the cool powers and being able to leap around like a ninja. So lets make enemies that drain all our energy or make us unable to move? Yes, removing core mechanics of an action game is pretty much the single worst way to design any sort of 'challenge'.

[Oktalz]

I wouldn't call having a stun ball clip through a corner of a wall or otherwise slip down a railing to be a 'challenge', especially when it means losing control.

Ever play actual good action games? DMC? Bayonetta? Vanquish? How often do you lose control of your character...? Oh right, never. Unless you actively mess something up.

It's not that the enemies are even challenging. They are just annoying and an unfun design. Much like disruptors. The best parts of the game are the cool powers and being able to leap around like a ninja. So lets make enemies that drain all our energy or make us unable to move? Yes, removing core mechanics of an action game is pretty much the single worst way to design any sort of 'challenge'.

you compare a tps with arpg core to standard action games? Shows how much you know. In other words lets compare ice hockey and golf, both have a small object that needs to be hit with a stick and up in a specific location. Yeah lets.

[Brasten]

Sure, when it's only one at a time, but when there are balls all around plus regular enemies swarming the room you're in..? Who'd want to bother with that?! It's not exactly difficult, just incredibly annoying!

But the don't stop you cold. Which is the point. Sure they are annoying. So are Shockwave Moas, so are Leapers (when they start leaping again) and Runners. You can still act while a Grinder is harassing you. You can still in some way be a Space Ninja. A teammate can make your life easier by shooting it (more hitbox fix I think). And if we ever get tech-rolling or blocking, then that's another option to actively deal with the annoyance.

Which is another point against the Stunballs. They prevent a player from being active. Be it purely defensively or becoming more agressive. They are rendered inactive in a game centered around action.

you compare a tps with arpg core to standard action games? Shows how much you know. In other words lets compare ice hockey and golf, both have a small object that needs to be hit with a stick and up in a specific location. Yeah lets.

No, lets compare Ice Hockey to Lacrosse or maybe Waterpolo. This is an Action game with RPG elements (costuming your character). It also happens to be a Third Person Shooter. Point is it is cross-genre game which draws on many influences. That includes more typical action games that lack RPG elements, although many do.

There is more Action game in Warframe then RPG. Almost as much as there is Shooter. Guns, Powers, or Sword? The answer is Yes.

How does the Stunball play with those three?

Guns: stunball locks you into cover and lets the AI move into better positions. Okay, annoying but not killer unless you get caught out of cover. Although the stun time gives the AI perhaps a bit too much time to creep up on you. Teammate coming to your aid have a low risk.

Powers: stunball keeps you from using powers, but is negated or killed by the prior use of others. The stunball almost forces power use in some ways when players become aware of it as danger. That can be meh and can be really bad. Teammate like the Gun bit, tend to have low risk.

Sword: Stunball locks you out of cover all but eating the enemy AIs gun barrels. Kills this 3rd of the game dead, in the worst of all places. Teammates have high risk, sometimes too high a risk especially when they can get stuck in the exact same bad spot. And all because a player was enjoying 1/3 the game this is.

Bad. I'm not sure how much more argument there needs to be against the stunballs. They break the one third of the game in the worst possible of ways.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Brasten

[Skepsis]

The stun ball is there, as a MP mechanic, I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. The purpose of them is to add team play, the STUN BALL is NOT IN SINGLE PLAYER. If you have a team too stupid to pay attention, then that's the fault on the team, not the enemy design. they're bright, glowy and roll on the floor, It's easy to dodge. You complain about them taking away from "being a ninja" Well be a Ninja and AVOID THEM. The disruptor and the balls are there to hinder your abilities And the best part about it? it's all avoidable. If you get hit? That's your fault. not the game. LTP

[Oktalz]

But the don't stop you cold. Which is the point. Sure they are annoying. So are Shockwave Moas, so are Leapers (when they start leaping again) and Runners. You can still act while a Grinder is harassing you. You can still in some way be a Space Ninja. A teammate can make your life easier by shooting it (more hitbox fix I think). And if we ever get tech-rolling or blocking, then that's another option to actively deal with the annoyance.

Which is another point against the Stunballs. They prevent a player from being active. Be it purely defensively or becoming more agressive. They are rendered inactive in a game centered around action.

No, lets compare Ice Hockey to Lacrosse or maybe Waterpolo. This is an Action game with RPG elements (costuming your character). It also happens to be a Third Person Shooter. Point is it is cross-genre game which draws on many influences. That includes more typical action games that lack RPG elements, although many do.

There is more Action game in Warframe then RPG. Almost as much as there is Shooter. Guns, Powers, or Sword? The answer is Yes.

How does the Stunball play with those three?

Guns: stunball locks you into cover and lets the AI move into better positions. Okay, annoying but not killer unless you get caught out of cover. Although the stun time gives the AI perhaps a bit too much time to creep up on you. Teammate coming to your aid have a low risk.

Powers: stunball keeps you from using powers, but is negated or killed by the prior use of others. The stunball almost forces power use in some ways when players become aware of it as danger. That can be meh and can be really bad. Teammate like the Gun bit, tend to have low risk.

Sword: Stunball locks you out of cover all but eating the enemy AIs gun barrels. Kills this 3rd of the game dead, in the worst of all places. Teammates have high risk, sometimes too high a risk especially when they can get stuck in the exact same bad spot. And all because a player was enjoying 1/3 the game this is.

Bad. I'm not sure how much more argument there needs to be against the stunballs. They break the one third of the game in the worst possible of ways.

The RPG elements far outweigh the shooter elements in this game. Got nothing further to add. Your logic falls because of this simple fact.

[Tyrian3k]

The RPG elements far outweigh the shooter elements in this game. Got nothing further to add. Your logic falls because of this simple fact.

Wait, what? RPG elements outweigh shooter elements in Warframe? Are you insane? There are a few RPG elements in the game, but a game is defined by the gameplay, not some minor things like leveling and skill trees.

Warframe is a shooter with RPG elements, not an RPG with shooter elements, but whatever...

I don't know how relevant the livestream actually is... From what I hear there, everyone's just talking about the grinders and not the seekers.

Also, splitting the community may be good if you ask: "What's the best gun in the game?" and everyone starts arguing about it.

The problem is that we're talking about an enemy here. If we split it evenly then 50% of the players dislike the seekers and would like to see some changes made to them.

I can't see how it could be good if 50% of the people are unhappy with the seekers.

[Skepsis]

They're only unhappy, because they are frustrated at the fact they can't dodge them.

[Oktalz]

They're only unhappy, because they are frustrated at the fact they can't dodge them.

+1

[Tyrian3k]

They're only unhappy, because they are frustrated at the fact they can't dodge them.

And how does that make them less unhappy?

Players who are unhappy with an enemy may just as well start disliking the game. Just to clarify: That's a bad thing.

[Mr.Popo]

They are necessary for a cooperative aspect of play (think Left 4 Dead).

How about making them grabber type things with a much bigger hit box? The ball should approach at the speed of the saw men and leap at you. If it catches you it locks down your arms and does damage over time. That way you could still jump and walk, but can't attack, and there is a nice big thing that your buddies can hit. Maybe it would also be destroyed with sufficient enemy friendly fire.

If it misses, it sticks to whatever it hits for a few seconds, allowing time for us to disable it, after which it frees itself and chases again. The main thing is hitboxes, and reduced mobility instead of no mobility.

(Bonus mechanic: If you have sufficient energy (maybe 100), holding your melee button will send your power through it and overload it. Alternative, spend shields to overload it. That would introduce an interesting tactical balance decision for the player. )

Edited March 4, 2013 by Mr.Popo