x27 is worth the grind over x23 amp?

[linikerlima]

so, i'm trying to improve my eidolon hunting to like 3x3 or 4x3 (on random queues)

and my doubt is, can i use the 123 to make 3x3/4x3 reliably if I improve the other parts of the hunt, or I really need to move to an x27 so i can do that? (take into account that I hated fortuna and I didn't do anything there so I would have to do the entire grind just for that 7 part) 

[Lolacrayola]

12 hours ago, linikerlima said:

can i use the 123 to make 3x3/4x3 reliably if I improve the other parts of the hunt?

Yes you can. You can do 5x3 with an x23 amp if you optimise the rest of the hunt. There is just a bit more crit RNG to deal with.

The biggest time wasters:

1) Charging the first lure, moving to teralyst and breaking the first shield slowly.

Mark teralyst and/or vomvalysts when you see them so your teammates do not end up flying around in circles for ages trying to find them. To spot teralyst, use the sound cue or if it spawns far away, look for the blue light pillar. To spot voms, fly relatively low to the ground and watch your radar for red arrows. You can memorize some common vom spawn locations from youtube guides on fast charging and make sure you fly over these areas en route to terry.

You will not see fast charging until 5x3. It requires everyone to do very specific actions upon loading into plains so that map cells populate in a specific order at set times to force spawn voms in the right locations. When executed correctly, fast charging is how 5x3 and 6x3 groups can break the first terry shield at 25 to 30 seconds host time. It also enables contingencies like killing the first limb with a 2/3 charged lure so they can get the final charge from the vom that spawns under terry at 30 to 35 seconds host time.

In 6x3, consistent fast charging is required. In 5x3 the time requirement is much more relaxed so you can afford to mess up a few of them. Below 5x3 don't worry about executing this correctly (because its not going to happen), but actively look for voms en route to terry and mark them so you can get the first lure charged as quickly as possible.

2) Not spawning loot at the shrine/gate by teleporting the lures.

If you are carrying lures, the first charged and tethered lure within 50m range of the eidolon will always spawn the loot. If you are not host, you will not see the tethers (this is a non host visual bug). If you are not sure if you have the loot lure, you can fly more than 50m away from the eidolon, so that someone else's charged lure becomes the loot lure. Or you can ask someone else to move their lures 50m away and come back so you can have the loot lure.

When the eidolon stands up for headshot phase, wait for the ping sound when its armoured health goes to zero and immediately mount up archwing and fly/blink towards the shrine. If you travel far enough, the lures will "teleport" to your location, which is the shrine in this case. Upon landing, immediately spam the "use" key and wiggle your mouse side to side so when the lures teleport to you, you set them to hold position at ground level instead of fly way up into the air. Remember to press use again on the remaining lures so they follow you for the next eidolon.

This saves a lot of time where people don't know where the eidolon died or where the loot spawns way up in the air and people spend ages looking for it. At slower tricaps, people waste a lot of time finding the shards and putting them in the shrine. Make it simple by spawning the loot right next to the shrine and marking it.

You can also exit plains quickly by teleporting the hydrolyst loot to the gate. Dismount archwing and slide so your warframe lands close enough to the gate to hold it open. Then go operator mode and dash backwards. Hold position on the lures at ground level and when the lure explodes, operator dash through the loot and into the tunnel.

3) Not resetting the instance quickly.

When in the tunnel, only the host needs to leave the tunnel and re-enter to reset the instance. So when you finish 1x3 and all go to the gate tunnel, everyone stays in the tunnel. The hosts rolls out into Cetus and rolls back into the tunnel again to start a new plains instance. You do not need to take the Konzu bounty.

4) People not charging or taking lures because they think it isn't their responsibility.

This is wrong. Every player is responsible for charging lures and ensuring enough lures are present, not just the Trinity or the DPS. If you are a VS player, you can charge lures in 2 ways without spending VS stacks:

a) you void dash through vomvalysts multiple times so that the fire trails from Madurai Blazing/Meteoric Dash kills them.

b) you can go into warframe mode with an exodia contagion zaw and double jump or aimglide melee to shoot a projectile that damages voms and lures. The infested projectile from exodia contagion does not spend VS.

Most of the lure charging will occur when the eidolon is in the 30 second downed state prior to headshot phase. During this time, voms will swarm in from different angles and stack on top of the eidolon. Dash up into the air, aim glide and look around. You can see the voms funnelling in and can mark them, intercept them and kill them. You can also sit on top of the eidolon in archwing and spam cosmic crush to kill voms and suck up vom drops to charge the lures at the same time. For gantulist and hydrolyst you need 3 charged lures before they stand up to capture without time wasting.

If your Trinity is really struggling with lures and is dying to gantulist light pillars, it is your responsibility as a teammate to help them. If necessary you need to fly off and grab replacement lures as a Volt or Harrow. If your DPS doesn't grab and charge the first lure, rather than complain about it, you need to do it yourself. It can make a huge difference at 2x3 and can save you several minutes per tricap.

5) Waiting for the eidolon to walk to the shore during lake shields.

When all shards are put in the shrine, the next eidolon rises out of the big lake and walks to the shore. You do not need to wait for this animation to complete, which takes 20 seconds approx. The shield hitbox is invisible and is where the eidolon ends up standing still at the shore. So memorize the 4 possible spawn points in the lake, immediately void dash to the appropriate one and shoot the air at the shore. I have a loc pin map with permanent map markers for all the lake spawns. You do not even need to be facing the eidolon when you shoot the shield hitbox. i.e. you can shoot away from it if you know where to stand. This allows you to break the shield before the eidolon has risen out of the water and your DPS can break the shoulder limb, causing the eidolon to teleport to its shield hitbox. Potential 20 second time saving per eidolon, 40 seconds per tricap.

6) Bad void strike management and no unairu wisp.

Can cause you to fluff lake shields because you don't have unairu wisp to double your damage or enough VS multiplier or enough VS stacks to 3 shot lake shields, meaning you don't have enough VS to one shot the remaining limbs. If you have any left over VS after breaking all of an eidolon's limbs, shoot your amp into the ground to get rid of it and start charging 8 fresh stacks. The time to start charging is after all the limbs are broken since the eidolon will fall down for 30 seconds. This is enough to get 4x VS and you can get it to 5x if you pick up loot at the shrine in operator since you can put your shard into the shrine without switching to your warframe first giving you a couple more seconds of VS charging. This is assuming a super fast run. In 2x3s and 3x3s you will have a lot more VS charging time because people don't put their shards in as fast.

Unairu wisp is not seen very often below 5x3 and is basically non existent below 4x3. This is an ability taken by the DPS player in the unairu focus school that causes little cetus wisps to drop when you punch enemies with operator melee. Anyone who picks up these wisps will get a double damage operator buff for 12 seconds. If you are playing DPS and you have unairu wisp unlocked, operator melee the eidolon during energy spikes. In 2x3 and 3x3, sometimes even 4x3 your teammates may not know what the wisps look like or where to pick them up, so mark them. You may have to type in chat for them to pick up the wisps at wp1 before shooting. If you punch the leg during energy spike, they will spawn between the eidolons legs. I think of them as tiny eidolon poops. They are very small and hard to see. They also have physics and can roll down hill.

You will do the biggest shield damage by picking up a unairu wisp during energy spike, void dash spamming the head to proc Virtuos Shadow and shooting from behind a volt shield. If you crit, your damage will be multiplied by 2 (wisp) x 2 (volt shield) x VS multiplier. So if you have 6x VS, your amp crits will be 2 x 2 x 6 = 24 times bigger. Thats hella big damage. If you do not crit, your damage will be garbage, but Shraksun scaffold multi hits so its very unlikely that none of the hits will crit.

Below 5x3, head dashing is rare to non existent. Nevertheless, proccing virtuos shadow multiplies your crit chance by 1.6. As mentioned above, below 4x3, unairu wisp is rare to non existent. This is a big part of the reason why slower groups are unable to break shields quickly without spending several minutes charging VS up to a 30x multiplier or something absurd like that.

Below 4x3, you probably will not have 3x VS players. And below 3x3, you have to be prepared for the possibility that you are the only VS player so the shield is solely your responsibility.

 

[Nailclipper]

Another thing is: Do you have Magus Lockdown, Anomaly, or Repair already? If you'd want to get them from Little Duck then might as well snatch the Certus brace.

[linikerlima]

3 minutes ago, Nailclipper said:

Another thing is: Do you have Magus Lockdown, Anomaly, or Repair already? If you'd want to get them from Little Duck then might as well snatch the Certus brace.

I don't have, but 500pl is totally worth as long as i can get away from fortuna

also ty for the tip i have saw people using these but didn't know what they were

[Lolacrayola]

Another thing you can do to save time is hacking lures without dismounting archwing. You fly around until you see a lure, aim, scope, shoot, blink at the lure and press the use key. Then immediately cipher.

If you are a VS player and you don't want to waste VS charges on a lure, you can aim, dismount archwing, aim glide and melee with an exodia contangion zaw, then remount archwing, blink at the lure, use and cipher. 

This lets you scoop up a bunch of lures quickly if your trinity is overloaded.

If you are DPS volt, it can also help to press 2 and give volt speed to your teammates right out of the gate, or any time your Trinity is about to teleport lures to the shrine/gate. Volt speed is a multiplier which affects archwing so everyone flies crazy fast. So fast that its difficult to control if you need to make small, corrective movements.

You can do this with VS volt too but since VS volt doesn't build for power strength, the speed multiplier is nowhere near as big.

[linikerlima]

2 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Another thing you can do to save time is hacking lures without dismounting archwing. You fly around until you see a lure, aim, scope, shoot, blink at the lure and press the use key. Then immediately cipher.

If you are a VS player and you don't want to waste VS charges on a lure, you can aim, dismount archwing, aim glide and melee with an exodia contangion zaw, then remount archwing, blink at the lure, use and cipher. 

This lets you scoop up a bunch of lures quickly if your trinity is overloaded.

Thank you for the help, im gonna try and slowly incorporate all of that into my hunts.

On that VS/Unairu wisp thing, im playing VS but, do you think i should move to unairu since VS is a very commonly found on random queues (good part of them is better than me and makes me useless since i cant even hit the shields before they one shot it), or stick with VS cause if i dont find one of these player i will be #*!%ed up? 

Also i'm using void dash/virtuos shadow and i can do good dmg when i can get it to work, but i'm struggling to get it reliably, im really off with the timing on volt shielding, stacking more vs, and getting shadow to proc.

so what would be the ideal steps i should follow from the part broken to the next time it stands back up and i shoot?

[Lolacrayola]

  

55 minutes ago, linikerlima said:

On that VS/Unairu wisp thing, im playing VS but, do you think i should move to unairu since VS is a very commonly found on random queues (good part of them is better than me and makes me useless since i cant even hit the shields before they one shot it), or stick with VS cause if i dont find one of these player i will be #*!%ed up? 

The DPS player should run Unairu and be providing wisps to VS players. So if you are DPS, then yeah. But if you are joining pugs with the intent to shoot shields, go VS.

Unairu wisp doubles operator damage but not weapon damage. VS buffs both so if you need to back up shoot limbs (because your DPS is melting down), you can do that with VS. If you end up in a pug with no VS (or your VS teammates are melting down), you can carry shields better with only VS as opposed to only Unairu Wisp. Your VS stack management will be a mess if you have to shoot shields and limbs but sometimes it happens.

 

55 minutes ago, linikerlima said:

Also i'm using void dash/virtuos shadow and i can do good dmg when i can get it to work, but i'm struggling to get it reliably, im really off with the timing on volt shielding, stacking more vs, and getting shadow to proc.

so what would be the ideal steps i should follow from the part broken to the next time it stands back up and i shoot?

 

The way I do it for Volt is:

1. DPS player breaks limb.

2. I immediately go into warframe mode while the eidolon is staggering to the left or right. It will always stagger to the opposite side of the limb that breaks. i.e. if DPS breaks the right knee, the eidolon will always stagger to the left. I run in the direction it staggers and place volt shield in front of the eidolon, then switch back to operator and press crouch toggle (not hold to crouch) to go into void mode.

3. I walk around to get line of sight to the head and hold my crosshair on it (but not long enough for the eidolon to throw its head back, roar and send out mag waves).

4. The next part requires you to get a feel for it. If you head dash and proc shadow too early, the buff will expire before you shoot your amp. So you need to delay slightly, then start spamming dash. If you leave it too late to dash spam, it will throw its head back and wave its head around in the air and its harder to get an accurate head dash. When dash spamming, I use crouch toggle and press space, s+space, space, s+space and don't really move the mouse very much. Its a 40% proc chance so sometimes you get unlucky and have to spam like 5 times.

The head hitbox is much larger than the visual model suggests. You can hit it by dashing over its head. If you are on a slope, you can even hit it by spamming dash into the ground. The hitbox is narrow but fairly tall and very long. So it is easier to hit by dashing into the side of its head, if you have that angle. You can also, dash into its "beard", get stuck underneath its chin and spam dash into its chin, but you need to be dead centre and not move your mouse around too much or you will miss.

5. As soon as I get the 60% cc buff icon, I void dash into the ground beneath its legs and walk around until I get the unairu wisp buff icon. Mag waves should be rolling out at the point. As soon as I hear the click sound of a wisp being picked up or see the wisp buff icon, I 180 and either void dash back to the volt shield or walk back, 180 again and prepare to shoot.

If done correctly, you should have both shadow and unairu buffs and be behind the volt shield before the first of 2 foot stomps followed by the blue flash of the shield regenerating. Sometimes RNG is bad with shadow proc and you may be slightly late shooting.

Be calm, move into position, choose your line, aim and then spam dash. Its more difficult if you are moving WSAD and trying to aim at the same time. You will just throw off your aim with your own movement. If you don't get the proc, you don't get it. Its fine because you have teammates shooting too and hopefully one of you will crit. If not, just shoot again.

[elevate]

you should be trying to get a 177 not x27, thats old meta

[elevate]

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

It requires everyone to do very specific actions upon loading into plains so that map cells populate in a specific order at set times to force spawn voms in the right locations.

The basic FC is literally just force spawning voms at lake lure so no it doesn't require people to do very specific actions upon loading into poe. If you are talking about log dash then maybe? But even that is still pretty simple, just 4 dashes once u get out of gate towards the tree on the left to spawn voms on the hill for dps.

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

vom that spawns under terry at 30 to 35 seconds host time.

it spawns at 34s if someone has "damaged" the eidolon's shields b4 27s. Or it is supposed to but ever since deadlock protocol its been pretty inconsistent, especially in a 4 man

 

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

You can also exit plains quickly by teleporting the hydrolyst loot to the gate. Dismount archwing and slide so your warframe lands close enough to the gate to hold it open. Then go operator mode and dash backwards. Hold position on the lures at ground level and when the lure explodes, operator dash through the loot and into the tunnel.

make sure the lures are held a bit b4 the stairs or the loot will teleport way up high and become glitched and u wont be able to get it

 

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

When in the tunnel, only the host needs to leave the tunnel and re-enter to reset the instance. So when you finish 1x3 and all go to the gate tunnel, everyone stays in the tunnel. The hosts rolls out into Cetus and rolls back into the tunnel again to start a new plains instance. You do not need to take the Konzu bounty.

you dont need to wait for the gate to close either. Can just go a bit out and then back in.

 

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Most of the lure charging will occur when the eidolon is in the 30 second

48s

 

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

When all shards are put in the shrine, the next eidolon rises out of the big lake and walks to the shore. You do not need to wait for this animation to complete, which takes 20 seconds approx. The shield hitbox is invisible and is where the eidolon ends up standing still at the shore. So memorize the 4 possible spawn points in the lake, immediately void dash to the appropriate one and shoot the air at the shore. I have a loc pin map with permanent map markers for all the lake spawns. You do not even need to be facing the eidolon when you shoot the shield hitbox. i.e. you can shoot away from it if you know where to stand. This allows you to break the shield before the eidolon has risen out of the water and your DPS can break the shoulder limb, causing the eidolon to teleport to its shield hitbox. Potential 20 second time saving per eidolon, 40 seconds per tricap.

here's a little helpful image:

21 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

This is enough to get 4x VS and you can get it to 5x

it is possible to get it to 9x+ b4 shields are vulnerable at the water spawn.

20 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

you can aim, dismount archwing, aim glide and melee with an exodia contangion zaw, then remount archwing, blink at the lure, use and cipher. 

you forgot the jump. If you want to do it in the air then you have to dismount archwing with e, jump, aim glide, melee, remount archwing, blink, hack and cipher

 

20 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

You can do this with VS volt too but since VS volt doesn't build for power strength, the speed multiplier is nowhere near as big.

Do not do this as VS volt when coming out of the gate as it will actually overwrite the DPS's speed buff with your lesser speed buff and screw up their quick charge

[Lolacrayola]

2 hours ago, elevate said:

The basic FC is literally just force spawning voms at lake lure so no it doesn't require people to do very specific actions upon loading into poe. If you are talking about log dash then maybe? But even that is still pretty simple, just 4 dashes once u get out of gate towards the tree on the left to spawn voms on the hill for dps.

Explain? Fast charging is a team effort and to do it really consistently, you need teammates who are aware of what can go wrong and not leave their DPS host hanging on a no spawn, which frankly isn't happening in a 2x3, 3x3 or 4x3 recruitment pug. You don't always get a team of fast loading players and 3 vom spawns at the target lure.

So everyone has to know what to do if only 2x voms spawn (due to a slow loading player). What happens if your host blinks past that 400~ metre threshold to go for the lure on the north shore of Gara Toht lake? No vom spawns. Are your team mates checking hill? Are they marking voms or did they all just beeline for teralyst and start pew pewing before volt shield is up and wisps go down? Sometimes you get people looking so hard for voms, nobody knows where teralyst spawned so you cancel out all the time saving.

Below 5x3, I've seen DPS hosts who didn't think it was their responsibility to charge any lures, at all. So a non host ends up charging the first lure. Non hosts can't see tethers and so have to guess the correct order to shoot voms, to make them go into the lure.

Some players are not aware of the bug where if you shoot multiple voms at the same time (i.e. with an aoe explosion), none of them will go into the lure, in which case you have to go operator, kill them, pick up the drops and charge manually.

I've never seen all players on the same page re: fast charging below 5x3. Its just a headache. There are some things that are technical but solely within your own power to control. You can practice hacking lures in archwing by repeating it until you do it on muscle memory. But with something like fast charging, there is just too many things that can not go as planned and too many contingencies that you need complete strangers to prepare for.

for the OP I would just focus on improving the things that are entirely within your own control and eventually you will get to a point where you are in groups that fast charge consistently anyway.

 

2 hours ago, elevate said:

it is possible to get it to 9x+ b4 shields are vulnerable at the water spawn.

Yes, but to get 9x VS you have to charge for like 70 seconds, which is possible only if you never leave void mode from the time the last limb breaks to the first shot of the next eidolon. This will require loads of energy pads and not using archwing to transition to shrine. May be unreasonable if you get teralyst far spawn. Speed archwing is still much faster than void dashing over large distances.

I don't do this because my consumable usage is mental and I'm trying to reduce it. Consumable usage is another thing you don't see that often in 2x3 and 3x3.

 

[elevate]

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Fast charging is a team effort and to do it really consistently,

It's not really. It's the DPS's job to charge the first lure. If they dont get log voms, it's still their responsibility.  There are plenty of other ways to quick charge a lure with 2x vom spawns. For example the +1 vom that spawns at terry or doing a +2 and spawning an entirely different set like this: 

 

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

3 vom spawns at the target lure.

pretty much never in rc which is why if you want to dps you need to know another method to fc if no log dash voms.

 

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

hat happens if your host blinks past that 400~ metre threshold

wdym, the basic fast charge is literally to just go around 100-120m away from the lake lure and 30-40m off the ground and then inch forward slowly until voms spawn.

 

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Are your team mates checking hill? Are they marking voms

You won't always get log dash voms on the hill, especially when in rc but its still the DPS's responsibility to quick charge the lure.

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Non hosts can't see tethers and so have to guess the correct order to shoot voms, to make them go into the lure.

Uh what, its not that big of a deal u can literally just shoot all of them and you will get the 1 tethered meaning all will go into the lure.

 

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Yes, but to get 9x VS you have to charge for like 70 seconds, which is possible only if you never leave void mode from the time the last limb breaks to the first shot of the next eidolon.

Yes you can do it that way but i'm saying there are other ways in which you don't have to stay in void mode for the entire time but can just do what you normally do.