Energy Siphon Is Currently Unhealthy

[LtZefar]

No, you'll have to explain more why Energy Siphon is so good. It just regen 0.6 mana per second. 1.2 mana every 2 seconds.  It takes 32 seconds to get 25 mana. 

 

Half a minute to be able for you to use your first skill. A minute to use your next skill. A minute and a half for the third skill and over 2 minutes to use the last skill.

 

How is that drastically changing your gameplay? I have Flow on my Rhino and I NEVER run out of energy. Ever. 

[ADDpillz]

Rage + Quick Thinking = Whats an energy siphon?

Edited October 21, 2013 by ADDpillz

[taiiat]

With this, it gives people with lower damage builds plenty of energy, as more often than not those low damage builds are very fast rate of fire, while those with high damage builds don't get infinite energy constantly. If both people are starting at 0 energy, there will be plenty of downtime for them to use their guns. How's this?

the major issue with percentages that high would be that guns with full blown mod sets would allow you to have infinite energy. you'd spend 100E, shoot 5 or 10 bullets, and repeat.

 

even my 3% attempt is still high. because it would still be infinite energy, especially considering all of the ammo on the ground.

at still, 1% is quite high for the damage output of our weapons. i mean, hell, a single Charge Attack on most melee's would give you like 33E @5%. and one magazine from a few of the more powerful weapons, would be more than 700E. and if you take down a few trash mobs at once with that swing which is pretty common...

No, you'll have to explain more why Energy Siphon is so good. It just regen 0.6 mana per second. 1.2 mana every 2 seconds.  It takes 32 seconds to get 25 mana. 

Energy siphon is very apparent to it's major benefits if you play the game. in the usual way combat is dealt with in missions, you have down time between the bursts of combat, normally. so you'll always have plenty of energy. the same applies in more resource abundant missions, just to a less noticable extent. but if you can't notice the difference, something's wrong.

when i'm not carrying Energy Siphon, with how i control my powers, i always have a good bit of energy. not full most of the time, but still plenty to use any power, or a few of them without using up all of my energy.

with energy Siphon, my energy is usually full. 100% of the time. i use energy, and shortly afterwards, it's completely full again. 

Edited October 21, 2013 by taiiat

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

meh just leave energy siphon alone

[CubedOobleck]

Replacement, on 21 Oct 2013 - 9:05 PM, said:

When I say it distorts the game, I mean it literally changes how you play.

You are right, but isn't that per-se a good thing? Anything that changes up gameplay is welcome, if you put it that way it's the other auras that are doing it wrong for being so plain and unimaginative.

[LtZefar]

Energy siphon is very apparent to it's major benefits if you play the game. in the usual way combat is dealt with in missions, you have down time between the bursts of combat, normally. so you'll always have plenty of energy. the same applies in more resource abundant missions, just to a less noticable extent. but if you can't notice the difference, something's wrong.

when i'm not carrying Energy Siphon, with how i control my powers, i always have a good bit of energy. not full most of the time, but still plenty to use any power, or a few of them without using up all of my energy.

with energy Siphon, my energy is usually full. 100% of the time. i use energy, and shortly afterwards, it's completely full again. 

 

I DO play the game. A LOT as well. The downtime isn't enough to give you enough energy to use the second skill.

 

Now as for you having full mana. It's because you pick up energy orbs. They drop in good amounts. Because Energy Siphon will not have enough time to regenerate the mana you've wasted. It's just basic math. If you have that amount of down time between battles something is wrong with the map.

 

I don't buy that it's the ultimate aura to use. When I play Survival/Defense I got so many orbs lying around I can't waste them all quickly enough unless I actually spam Stomp.

I always got energy to use with Rhino the moment I put on Flow. I never run out. With the rare occasion against infected disruptor.

[Replacement]

meh just leave energy siphon alone

The very first sentence of the thread. THE VERY FIRST.

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

The very first sentence of the thread. THE VERY FIRST.

what o.o

[notionphil]

No, you'll have to explain more why Energy Siphon is so good. It just regen 0.6 mana per second. 1.2 mana every 2 seconds.  It takes 32 seconds to get 25 mana. 

 

Half a minute to be able for you to use your first skill. A minute to use your next skill. A minute and a half for the third skill and over 2 minutes to use the last skill.

 

How is that drastically changing your gameplay? I have Flow on my Rhino and I NEVER run out of energy. Ever. 

 

Because it stacks.

 

0.6 X 4 = 2.4 energy a second.

 

2.4 energy a second a guaranteed ult every 42 seconds, and that's with no energy pickups - which doesn't happen when your Ult clears the room.

 

With Rhino and Nova being the most popular non starter frames, and them having room clearing ults - it gets annoying to have every mob within 30M pulverized every 20 seconds or so.

 

Energy siphon was one of the worst ideas in WF. Should been a baseline passive regen to all frames, or made skill kills/melee/something regen energy. If you wanted to BOOST that with mods etc, fine. But not have the baseline depending on a stacking mod.

[Replacement]

Energy siphon was one of the worst ideas in WF. Should been a baseline passive regen to all frames, or made skill kills/melee/something regen energy. If you wanted to BOOST that with mods etc, fine. But not have the baseline depending on a stacking mod.

 

I actually agree with this, but failing "the direct approach," I think "selfish" mods would go a long way.  Whether they're based on damage, getting kills (better for solo/duo type scenarios, where you're more likely to be energy starved in my experience), come with a damage drawback Corrupted style -- I don't care.  But I do like the idea of it costing you damage potential.  Hence, I'd like to see something with high mod slot costs.  This would reinforce the mods as not for everyone, and distinguish between people who shoot because that's how the killing happens and those who shoot to contribute to kill speed but also to use their neat, game-changing skills more often.

 

Arguing about the amount of energy returned is still a non-argument.  It provides functionality found nowhere else.  There will always be scenarios (and I mean this constantly happens) where you would just barely not have enough energy, but Energy Siphon takes care of you.  This scenario will often occur when the bad guy horde is standing on top of all those blue orbs you want to drink.  

 

This is my feedback in a feedback forum: Please find a method for a player to recover energy within their first week or so of playing.

[LtZefar]

Because it stacks.

 

0.6 X 4 = 2.4 energy a second.

 

2.4 energy a second a guaranteed ult every 42 seconds, and that's with no energy pickups - which doesn't happen when your Ult clears the room.

 

With Rhino and Nova being the most popular non starter frames, and them having room clearing ults - it gets annoying to have every mob within 30M pulverized every 20 seconds or so.

 

Energy siphon was one of the worst ideas in WF. Should been a baseline passive regen to all frames, or made skill kills/melee/something regen energy. If you wanted to BOOST that with mods etc, fine. But not have the baseline depending on a stacking mod.

It's rare to see 4 players with it at once. Hell even finding one person with it now is rare.

 

With Maxed Flow I got 300 Energy on Rhino. I can find enough blue orbs each time I've used my ulti so I can use it again and again.

But in Defense, Mobile Defense or Survival, there are no 42 seconds down times. You're under constant attacks on those when it's turned on.

 

So I still don't see the OPness of this mod that people claim it has. I never run out of energy with Flow. 

 

Did you miss that part btw about me having Flow and never running out of energy which does the exact same thing you claim Energy Siphon does for you?

Because I want to make it clear that with Flow maxed I don't run out of energy. So how is that mod not bad for the game? :/

 

There will always be scenarios (and I mean this constantly happens) where you would just barely not have enough energy, but Energy Siphon takes care of you.  This scenario will often occur when the bad guy horde is standing on top of all those blue orbs you want to drink.  

 

This is my feedback in a feedback forum: Please find a method for a player to recover energy within their first week or so of playing.

 

No, that does not happen all the time. I don't run out of Energy unless I run away from all the mobs and spam skills or get hit by Disruptor but then I just pick up those orbs lying around and I'm full again.

 

I don't understand how you run out of energy but you must be spamming it none stop the moment you get some.

If the enemy is in the way I will shoot my way through with whatever weapon I got. But even then I haven't run out of energy.

[theammostore]

the major issue with percentages that high would be that guns with full blown mod sets would allow you to have infinite energy. you'd spend 100E, shoot 5 or 10 bullets, and repeat.

 

even my 3% attempt is still high. because it would still be infinite energy, especially considering all of the ammo on the ground.

at still, 1% is quite high for the damage output of our weapons. i mean, hell, a single Charge Attack on most melee's would give you like 33E @5%. and one magazine from a few of the more powerful weapons, would be more than 700E. and if you take down a few trash mobs at once with that swing which is pretty common...

Really? I thought they were really small. Well then. How about even smaller? What would you suggest?

[OblivionNecroninja]

Alright, that's a neat idea you have.

From my experience, you don't really need Energy Siphon on ALL frames (frames whose powers lead themselves to infrequent use, like Nekros, Mag, and Banshee seem to do pretty well without it), but it is a huge quality of life thing for pretty much everyone.

More importantly, it is MASSIVELY better than any other -- Aura (with the possible exception of Corrosive Aura, and even that only because infinitely scaling enemies are a horrible horrible idea that DE nonetheless decided to implement).

[notionphil]

It's rare to see 4 players with it at once. Hell even finding one person with it now is rare.

 

I think this statement is extreme hyperbole...

 

I am going keep siphon off during my entire next play session and see if your statement is correct.

 

I normally run enemy radar+nyx, and there's usually at least one siphon in group but I haven't kept track. Tonight I will.

[Tahlrah]

as far as i read all this..... i only read about you guys complaining about your lack of energy management (and im not talking bout the skill cost or energy regain......)

 

Life/Energy leech.... hell yes that would be nice.... also hey... lets just throw TRINITY out of the game couse what would you need her for again?

 

if you dont want to use Energy Syphon.... get Rage.... if you dont want to use rage theres still Equillibrium (still thinking that mods a bad joke)

else get steamline and the corrupted mod for efficiency and if you still dont have enough energy... then youre doing something wrong

 

passiv regeneration of energy? would be nice yes,,,,, but id still prefer Energy Syphon couse with the right polarity it still gives you 14+ mod points for other mods

[KittyDarkling]

4pts unranked

5 rank mod

0.5% energy per connecting shot(alternatively per ammo used). calculating the actual totalled per hit damage(including all elementals and etc), not the potential damage. the damage you actually dealt to the enemy.

 

3% of your damage returned as energy is actually a lot, before you complain it's too low. 

even at 3% such a mod would allow you to use a 100E power with one magazine of the average assault rifle, even with mods that aren't that great.

 

3% might even be a bit high. come to think of it, it probably is. 1% is probably the best number.

someone's good at reading.

 

edit:

though, to be fair, i almost always have Energy  Siphon equipped, and most of my frames.... i can't use Energy fast enough. it's pretty much always full.  save for more intensive groups of enemies, such as some of the Mobile Defenses and Defenses with massive enemy counts. even then, i only ever really end up using 150 or 175E at any given time, and then all's quiet on the Western Front.

 

    In a sense DE already came into this issue and solved it. You cant use a % of damage model  in a game like WF. the difference between early game and late game is just to extreme. The solution is making the system kill based.  maybe 5 energy a kill? the numbers I suggest are meaningless though as I'm sure if DE considers this thread they'll find the right balance. But I'd like to say I feel this game has some of the most customizable gameplays I've seen. I feel that there is nothing wrong with adding these options to the game.

 

    on a note to energy siphon's usefulness. I think of it like this. To use an ult is 4 orbs, with streamline it's 3, with streamline + energy siphon it's 2. and generally combining these two mods makes energy orbs 2x as potent. it's quite a big change.

 

OT:    Personally I'd love to see a full set of energy/health steal mods for weapons. all with their own balances. If you dont need these mods then that's great for you. they are options. and as previously argued there are other mods that make powers limitless anyway. Then wonderful! you should have no problem with these mods as according to you they wont change anything but make a bunch of people happy c:

 

In short,

I love your idea as a core.

I want to see health and energy stealing mods for all weapon categories

(kill based not damage)

 

And thank you so much for making this post c:

Edited October 21, 2013 by KittyDarkling

[Replacement]

I see responses defending Energy Siphon, saying it's not OP -- this is not the point of this thread.

 

I see responses essentially saying "learn to manage your energy" -- this is not the point of this thread, but it actually proves my point.  Because I have energy siphon, I CAN spam and, with intermittent pick-ups, continue to spam to my heart's content.  This is the definition of a single item changing how the player plays.

 

At the end of the day, why would anyone NOT want mods that help energy recovery if they came with a large enough opportunity cost?  Who would be against a set of mods that people could equip to improve their energy at the expense of increasing damage or otherwise giving up large quantities of shiny stats? 

 

I cannot respond in-line to all scenarios adequately.  Just remember that I don't actually care whether or not you need Energy Siphon to function.  That doesn't refute the fact that it adds something many people do not have access to.

 

And that sucks.

 

@Those of you doing energy % calculations and such: putting energy on kills is very restrictive for builds that aren't focusing on a lot of damage output anyway.  Damage % with a (mod level-based) cap could work, though.  Making it a Corrupted Mod with -damage would also help widen the gulf between those who would want these mods equipped and those who wouldn't, but Orokin Vaults aren't part of the newbie experience either.  Several other ways to do it, such as some really bland normalization where each shot returns 1/(shots per second) energy, so one second of sustained fire always equals 1 energy.  Leveling the mod would change out the 1 for incremented numbers.

 

As I said, though, ideas are cheap.  It's for DE to do the hard part: coding, testing, iteration.

[TheHeraldXII]

I've always thought that 0.5 energy regen should be built into the game. Without regen the warframe abilities become so precious that you barely ever use them and it turns into a fairly standard TPS. If the game is already balanced around the assumption that people have Energy Siphon, why not make it so we start off with a little bit of energy regen (that doesn't stack with your teammate's inbuilt regen obviously).

[oremaster100]

I feel that the carrier sentinel has sort of remedied this. With a sentinel collecting every energy orb in a massive radius, it is very similar to energy siphon and you can use something like rifle amp to do the extra damage to kill the enemies to get the orbs.

[Relkin]

Well idk man, you say that a single item changes how you play but that is in fact the entire point of the mod/aura system.

 

Shred with its 1.2 puncture drastically changes the way I play the game.  I go out of my way to line up shots across multiple enemies to the point where I'll lure them into vauban vortex or pop a shot with cryo rounds to slow them down at a door so I can line up shots esp on higher lvl content. 

 

Overextended corrupted mod on my nova see's me rarely using my ult and using anti drop a lot more (check the wiki to see why if you are curious)

 

When I finally get sure footed I assure you I'm taking Saryn out with speed holster or rejuv and using her exclusively for melee. 

 

North Wind on my Kogake see's me using them almost exclusively for the AOE slow

 

Stabilizer+Zoom see's me using my hind as a sniper rifle

 

It's actually really common and I feel like it is a good thing, the varied play style and utility of this mod system is one of the attractive things about this game - nobody is forcing energy siphon upon you.  I tend to not use it on most of my frames and generally don't find that many people use it either unless I ask them to equip it when I'm playing a spam build caster and we're doing survival on Pluto.  So what is wrong with having items that change how people play?

[LtZefar]

1: I see responses defending Energy Siphon, saying it's not OP -- this is not the point of this thread. 

 

2: I see responses essentially saying "learn to manage your energy" -- this is not the point of this thread, but it actually proves my point.  Because I have energy siphon, I CAN spam and, with intermittent pick-ups, continue to spam to my heart's content.  This is the definition of a single item changing how the player plays.

 

3: At the end of the day, why would anyone NOT want mods that help energy recovery if they came with a large enough opportunity cost?  Who would be against a set of mods that people could equip to improve their energy at the expense of increasing damage or otherwise giving up large quantities of shiny stats? 

 

4: I cannot respond in-line to all scenarios adequately.  Just remember that I don't actually care whether or not you need Energy Siphon to function.  That doesn't refute the fact that it adds something many people do not have access to.

 

And that sucks.

 

5: @Those of you doing energy % calculations and such: putting energy on kills is very restrictive for builds that aren't focusing on a lot of damage output anyway.  Damage % with a (mod level-based) cap could work, though.  Making it a Corrupted Mod with -damage would also help widen the gulf between those who would want these mods equipped and those who wouldn't, but Orokin Vaults aren't part of the newbie experience either.  Several other ways to do it, such as some really bland normalization where each shot returns 1/(shots per second) energy, so one second of sustained fire always equals 1 energy.  Leveling the mod would change out the 1 for incremented numbers.

 

As I said, though, ideas are cheap.  It's for DE to do the hard part: coding, testing, iteration.

 

1: Ok, you've claimed it's so OP and lets you spam a ton of skills. This is wrong, the Aura alone doesn't do much at all. Maybe when all four are using it it might be worth something. But alone? No, it just regenerate to little energy per second. Shoot your ulti and waste all of your energy and then don't take any orbs. You will not regain that energy as quick as you claim.

 

You get the same result with Flow and hell if you use the Mod that also decrease the energy cost and you will never run out of energy unless you want to spam out a certain spell like Vauban lightning bolt ball.

Changing it to something else will only make it more powerful.

 

For example, making it return energy for the damage you cause, this will get you max energy due to the power of weapons.

Giving energy per kill. If you play survival you'd be constantly killing enemies making you get far more energy than what it normally regens.

 

As it is now it's only useful when everyone use it and that doesn't happen all that often. Pretty rare what I can tell.

 

2: The reason you can spam is because you pick up the orbs. It's not because of the Aura. I wonder what game modes you're playing. If it's Survival or Endless Defense then your points about Aura just lose all weight. Because those maps generate so many blue orbs you don't know what to do with them.

But this doesn't change the game. I can spam my skills through out the entire map and not have a problem with it.

 

3: Because it really doesn't help all that much. It's too low and too slow. I get better results using a Maxed Flow mod than I do with Energy Siphon. You THINK it's the mod that does it but it's not. It doesn't enable you to spam stuff. It's because you pick up those blue orbs that makes it possible.

 

4: It doesn't add much to the game. Flow has far bigger effect than Energy Siphon have. Coupled with the other skill that reduce Energy cost on skills and you got a spell caster combo that will not run out of energy and be able to use their spells all the time. Energy Siphon can only dream of doing this.

 

5: 1 Energy per second for keeping up the damage is already faster than Energy Siphon. If this is just on level 1 then it's going to several times faster. What about hitting multiple enemies at once with a weapon like Ignis? Would that also count? Then it'd just be silly on how much mana you could regen with little effort.

 

 

Energy Siphon really doesn't need to be changed. As it's only useful when most people use it but even then it isn't all that great. Flow proves to be far more effective at keeping energy up compared to Energy Siphon.

 

You really should give Flow a try if you have that skill. If you have it on your Warframe already then you can easily drop Energy Siphon and not notice a difference.

[HackShield]

why all complain about engery syphon is to rare or is to much needed HELL damn O.o your a ninja and you got Weapons use them!

 

your power are life savers not spammers its meaned to fight the enemys and if it get to dangerous unleash your epic power and nto run in a room spamm finisher till nothing moving anymore run next room and hope energy syphon regenerated enjoy energy for your spam ....

[Replacement]

@ltzefar: How can you expect me to take your response seriously when you start off assuming an argument I'm not making?

I don't think energy siphon is OP. Its power level is not in question. Its rarity is. I don't want the mod changed (another argument I'm not actually making). I just want a similar non-aura, non-alert mod.

@hackshield: you obviously don't play like a caster. the game you describe sounds boring. Luckily, I don't play that game -- streamline and energy siphon make sure of that.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Replacement

[Jathniel]

*I do not want to nerf Energy Siphon.

*I do not  play super endgame stuff.  If you think this invalidates my opinion, just close the tab/window now instead of responding with fallacious arguments which don't address my issues.

 

I'm starting to hate how much I require Energy Siphon.  I am sad for the friends of mine who do not have this aura, because we are playing different games.  They're playing this game where they need to focus on guns beyond all else and occasionally have a neat trick to pull.  Particularly while playing solo.  I'm playing a game where I can always plan my combat around my power use.  

 

My issue in a nutshell: Energy Siphon distorts the game too much for a mod as rare as it is.

 

A secondary problem this causes is that all other auras are moot in comparison to energy siphons, which only get better when stacked.

 

All I really want is a personal, non-Rage, non-Alert energy return mod.  It seems the easiest way to implement this (and I'm surprised it isn't in the game already!) is as weapon mods which give a portion of damage dealt as energy gained.  I'd like to see something like that priced at 6-11 mod slots, but I'd even use it at a cost of 10-13.  This method comes with built-in opportunity cost (as a weapon mod, it forces the user to give up damage mods).  This also frees up other aura mods to actually see the light of day.

 

If DE doesn't agree with that implementation, figure something else out.  Ideas are cheap.  Come up with one that makes me less reliant on blue balls and a single, hard-to-obtain, game-changing aura mod.

I find your conclusion to be a non-sequitur.

You don't want to nerf energy siphon. (You don't use super endgame stuff. You feel bad for players that don't have energy siphon. )

Yet, you hate how much YOU require energy siphon....

....and therefore the problem is with energy siphon? It's "unhealthy"? Yet, you don't want to change energy siphon?

Energy Siphon serves a particular playstyle. You simply happen to be proficient with it. Unless, your playstyle is somehow so strong that you can literally fight mobs of infinitely increasingly level INDEFINITELY, then you're not OP (and therefore nothing is wrong with Energy Siphon).

YOUR playstyle is dependent on Energy Siphon. If this sickens you, then change your playstyle! lol (I happen to like one that makes use of Rejuvenation when I'm on Rhino, and I happen to like Enemy Radar when I'm on Loki, for better stealth management.) 

Honestly, if your intention is simply to introduce a new energy regen mod, then mentioning Energy Siphon and how you DO NOT want to change it is simply irrelevant.

On to the mod...

There are reasons I disagree with your damage-to-energy weapon mod proposal:

1. There's currently no way to implement that in a balanced way to make it useful at all levels from new player to veteran. (What would be a reasonable and balanced energy regen for a newer, weaker player/frame/build, would be horrendously OP for high-damage end game builds; and trying to balance this by forcing a regen cap would lead to it being rendered useless at absolute higher ends. "I want to spam Powers, but why should I use this when it only gives me back X amount of energy anyway? I'm better off going full damage, killing super-hard enemies faster, and getting blue orbs.").

2. You'd simply be moving your reliance (which you hate) from one mod, and putting it on another. The fact is, there are ways to regen your energy; Get hit, grow it passively, kill enough enemies fast enough, or use Equilibrium (you said you were tired of BLUE orbs right?).

3.You are trying to interfere with other playstyles

 

"(as a weapon mod, it forces the user to give up damage mods)"

. Please don't do that. Nearly EVERY weapon mod is meant to effect Damage, DPS, Max DPS, Immediate DPS, Damage Projection, Accuracy, and barring all that, Stealth. The weapon mods are functioning as intended. There is no universal mod layout that works the same for every weapon, that would some how require that your mod BE a weapon mod. Thankfully WF's weapons are fairly diverse enough to avoid universal builds. (e.g. not everyone uses Galatine the same. some load elemental mods on it, some don't.)  For now, utility mods are loaded on the Warframe itself. Don't see much reason to change that.

It seems to me that you are simply fatigued with your current playstyle... why not simply try something else? I think energy regen is well managed in the game currently. When you invest in it, it will take you far, but it won't carry you forever against mobs that continually grow in power.

Bored with how strong you are? Go do a Survival Solo. They really are super fun.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Jathniel

[LtZefar]

@ltzefar: How can you expect me to take your response seriously when you start off assuming an argument I'm not making?

I don't think energy siphon is OP. Its power level is not in question. Its rarity is. I don't want the mod changed (another argument I'm not actually making). I just want a similar non-aura, non-alert mod.

 

 

Wait so now it's no OP anymore? In the first post you said it made every other Aura useless when that is not true at all. 4 People with Corrosive Projection are far far better than 4 Energy Siphon users. Because we get over 100% armor reduction. If the users use Flow we will have no energy problem.

 

And no it is not a powerful mod alone. It generate too little energy for it to become reliable.

 

It takes like 2 minutes to get up 100 energy. It's almost the entire wave in a Mobile Defense.