Ignis: Overbuffed Much?

[Karzak]

^

Yeap thats what I said

[OmniDetta]

I see you OP build and raise you mine. But the thing is, with these mods, any weapon is OP, and no MR4 person os going to have them at this lvl.

 

 

But once again, while any weapon will do an incredible amount of damage modded up, the vast majority of these weapons require aiming and will only do that damage to a single target. This means that despite impressive damage potential, a players ability to seek and track targets as well as their overall battlefield awareness still plays a big part in how 'good' they are. Evan an Ogris user will quickly kill themselves if they're not on the ball.

 

Furthermore, anybody arguing that any skill differential is removed the moment we gain the ability to 'one-shot' a mob clearly hasn't ever played UT Instagib. I can only recommend that you educate yourself and do so. You might be surprised.

The main point I'm trying to get across is that, mods aside, with most weapons there is a linear correlation between the skill of the user and how effective a weapon is real world.

 

If I can use a Soma as a semi-auto weapon and twitch headshot crits quickly, accurately and effectively, I'm always going to be far more of an asset than that guy holding the button down, waiving the mouse around and going for full auto body shots.

 

With the Ignis you could take the best competitive FPS player in the world and a well trained monkey, and as far as their ability to effectively kill in game goes, there would be little that separates the two.

Herein lies the problem IMO.

EDIT: To be expressly clear I don't think it needs a damage nerf, I just think that it should be tweaked so that the user plays a bigger part in how effective a weapon it is. My argument is that a revised COF might be an intelligent way to accomplish this.

Edited November 5, 2013 by OmniDetta

[DeadMoroze]

Ignis is not not any kind of weapon. Its purely AOE type and in no way should it be compared to rifles or snipers or bows

. If U wanna aim go for Lanka or any other sniper. Anyways, Ignis is a poor choice against high level (100+++) ancients and heavily armored grineers. U'll need a powerfull sidearm and a meele weap. I don't see any reasons for nerfing it. And those who brag about OP try hunting big fish instead of pounding an acquarium with boulders. Like I said - Ignis is okay and should not be nerfed. Its an issue of who and where U hunt.

[Wolfstorm18]

In XCOM: another day, another sucessful operation.

 

In Warframe foruns: another day, another nerf topic.

[OmniDetta]

In XCOM: another day, another sucessful operation.

In Warframe foruns: another day, another nerf topic.

It's a weapon feedback forun; surprised much?

I'm personally not arguing for a DPS nerf, I'm arguing against the fact that it took the joy out of recent event missions, and I'm guessing that it will continue to do so for many more to come. Missions where you aren't hunting 'big fish', but are going for big rewards against lower level mobs. Missions where most players end up running with PUGs to fulfil steep reward requirements.

Of course these points of view are always going to be subjective, but everytime I spawned in with an Ignis user sprinting through the map while rolling their face across the kb screaming "LOLOLOLOLOLOL" (kidding), I couldn't help but sigh as my role was reduced to little more than collecting mods. Of course, I'm sure that many people would consider this a great thing, mod & requirement rewards for minimal effort! But my personal point of view is that any weapon that can make 3 other players involuntarily redundant for an entire map needs looking at, however situational it may be.

You've also got to consider newer players who don't yet have the options of farming higher content or hunting bigger game. If an ignis user drops into any of their games that requires running a gauntlet they're not going to be having a great deal of fun.

I don't for a second think that you should have to aim it like a Lanka, I just think that it might make sense for the dev's to narrow the COF so that you actually had to point it in the general direction of what you intend to kill. To argue that AOE weapons, by definition, shouldn't require aiming is ridiculous.

I'm not raging, nor am I ignorant of end game content. While I may not have clocked up the hours of early adopters I'm MR8 and have a long background in ladder-leading top-tier FPS comp. Yes I know that this is a PvE game, and as such my argument is based more on the enjoyment (of others) rather than number crunching theorycrafting.

Edited November 7, 2013 by OmniDetta

[fatpig84]

Ignis at the moment is balanced, you can tighten down the COF just a little but at the moment it is still perfect.

 

If you are arguing how it ruins event fun for you then I am afraid to tell you, it won't be ANY different because any well made press 4 to win frame can do the same. In case for Mag, she even out kills Ignis users if built for Pull. So much for a starter frame eh ?

 

 

My Ignis is formaed 4 times,  it still falls off dramatically in level 120 alerts.

 

With 2 forma it can barely handle level90+ Infested alerts.

And fire is supposed to kill Infested quick.

 

Any high weapon like Soma and Flux and Acrid is still ez mode up till level 150+ even with 2 forma.

[Raanaar]

Ignis sucks against armor and higher levels, not OP

[Wolfstorm18]

It's a weapon feedback forun; surprised much?

 

 

No, Im used to the constant nerf whining.

 

Ignis is not OP, its one of the most balanced weapons in this game.

[OmniDetta]

 

If you are arguing how it ruins event fun for you then I am afraid to tell you, it won't be ANY different because any well made press 4 to win frame can do the same. In case for Mag, she even out kills Ignis users if built for Pull. So much for a starter frame eh ?

 

 

I agree, but that's a different debate all together!

I also agree that all that it really needs is a tightened COF.

 

 

 

No, Im used to the constant nerf whining.

 

Ignis is not OP, its one of the most balanced weapons in this game.

 

Most of the whining in this thread has been from those opposing a nerf, your unfounded accusations included. However I think that most people, regardless of whether they are arguing for or against a change, have put forward considered points supported by the thinking behind them. You've been an exception in this respect too.

 

EDIT: No reason for a debate to turn nasty. I'm sure we can disagree and remain civil.

Edited November 8, 2013 by OmniDetta

[AuroraSonicBoom]

5 star potatoed Ignis here. The weapon is designed to spray and pray, skillful aiming isn't a property it ever required, not even in its original, unbuffed form. I use the gun strictly for clearing out trash easily, which is what it's best at. Nothing above level 60(drones excluded) is going to melt fast with fire anyway, everything else is left standing for you to walk up to and waste your rapidly depleting ammo on. The ability to blanket an entire area in flames without having to aim at ay single enemy directly is one of it's most useful properties. It and the Ogris are specifically designed to fill these spammy no-aim roles(ogris not as much as Igins, but still), as evidenced by the existence of the Firestorm mod. Decreasing the spamability of it would only make it less enjoyable to use without actually improving the game balance compared to other weapons in its class. The Torid requires precise aiming and foresight to be effective, but it's also a lot more potent against high level targets than the Ignis.

Even if you cut the CoF in half, Firestorm will still allow players to burn everything in a 180° arc in front of them, kill stealing your enemies just as well. You'd have to nerf the CoF into the ground, so that even with Firestorm, the CoF would not exceed 30°. And even then, and with a range nerf, players would be able to target much more trash mobs at once than you are able to with your projectile weapon, allowing them to still kill steal your share of the enemy effectively.

 

The argument about decreasing other players' fun by kill stealing is a well known problem in Warframe, but unless you're going to propose a nerf that gets rid of every single room clearing ultimate and weapon property you'll have to simply *put sunglasses on* - deal with it. My suggestion is to nag the devs about better balancing enemy difficulty by taking the squads loadout into account. That mechanic is already part of Warframe in a rudimentary form, so it shouldn't be too difficult to expand on it.

[JohnPetrucci]

[__Kanade__]

I don't like finding a game where there's an Ignis user, especially on Apollodorus when that Ignis user is a speedy Nova with zorens, kills the flow of gameplay ( zorencoptering alone kills gameplay in general ). Difficult to try an rank up a sidearm or melee weapon when an Ignis user comes in and takes all the kills for themselves like it's some sort of race when I'm just trying to level up a weapon. You can't even isolate yourself in survival games cause that zoren nova ignis user is just there to find the huge mobs and move on.

[fatpig84]

I don't like finding a game where there's an Ignis user, especially on Apollodorus when that Ignis user is a speedy Nova with zorens, kills the flow of gameplay ( zorencoptering alone kills gameplay in general ). Difficult to try an rank up a sidearm or melee weapon when an Ignis user comes in and takes all the kills for themselves like it's some sort of race when I'm just trying to level up a weapon. You can't even isolate yourself in survival games cause that zoren nova ignis user is just there to find the huge mobs and move on.

 

Personally from experience you get way more xp for waaay less effort in Cyath, Kiste and Sedna.

[K0bra]

Go away with your thread and leave Ignis alone... OMG

[Cornuthaum]

I don't like finding a game where there's an Ignis user, especially on Apollodorus when that Ignis user is a speedy Nova with zorens, kills the flow of gameplay ( zorencoptering alone kills gameplay in general ). Difficult to try an rank up a sidearm or melee weapon when an Ignis user comes in and takes all the kills for themselves like it's some sort of race when I'm just trying to level up a weapon. You can't even isolate yourself in survival games cause that zoren nova ignis user is just there to find the huge mobs and move on.

Alas, while you might have been playing to level up your sidearm (and don't we all ever so often?), they are playing Apollodorus to farm a giant mountain of Ferrite. And the best way to do that is to make a giant pile of enemy corpses. (Zorencoptering Ignis Vanguard-Rush Rhino on Apollodorus speaking here).

 

Besides -yes, it -is- a race to kill as many things as quickly as you can, because it's -Mercury- and in 4 of 5 runs there, some newbie keeps popping Life Support at 90% because they don't read the squad-chat or have any idea of what's going on. Therefore, more LS drop-packs are needed. And because the Ferrite must flow.

 

-

 

As for the general status of the Ignis: It's a MR 4 weapon, it requires a Forma, it requires Clan research: It -should- be as good as it is right now.

 

Any grineer past level 60 look at it and laugh it off - I urge you to try any alert past Earth against Grineer with an Ignis, it's so much fun doing 1 damage per damage interval.

 

Infested Ancients, similarly, look at it, then charge you and beat you silly.

 

Only the boxheads have the greedy milk crushed from their skulls with any consistency, except for Fusion MOA drones. 

 

TLDR: Ignis good, leave it where it is.

[MJ12]

But once again, while any weapon will do an incredible amount of damage modded up, the vast majority of these weapons require aiming and will only do that damage to a single target. This means that despite impressive damage potential, a players ability to seek and track targets as well as their overall battlefield awareness still plays a big part in how 'good' they are. Evan an Ogris user will quickly kill themselves if they're not on the ball.

 

The skill with using the Ignis is putting enemies in a position where you can hit multiple enemies at once, as the Ignis's DPS is only top-tier if you are nailing several enemies at a time. It's a somewhat different skill than aiming, but positioning is far more important for an Ignis user than it is for any other rifle user.

 

The issue is also that you need to be evading, because the Ignis's short range means that you're in the threat range of almost every enemy in the game when using it, whereas rifles mean you can stand off against Infested and basically ignore them unless you @#&$ up entirely.

[CaptainohCaptain]

but positioning is far more important for an Ignis user than it is for any other rifle user.

You talk a trash. You don't need to position yourself properly with Ignis, that's the whole problem! Ignis consist from w(hold) + Shift(hold) + space + LRM. Repeat till your hands will die, then switch to w + LRM. It's AoE starts from sick width and ends in sick width, going through everything. While when you are using other puncturing weapon, you have to line up your opponents for non-guaranteed results (heavy arcing|turn up to 70 degrees after first target can render projectile useless).

I would buy "it's only good versus crowds" if that game WOULDN'T be a game about killing crowds. Big part of weaponry rendered useless not because of bad base damage but low net output due to the fact that having a pack of 15-20 ahead is pretty average result anywhere past few minutes.

[Thelonious]

Anything in this game that allows you to kill enemies you don't even see, is to nerf to the ground with a power hammer till it disappears underground.

 

Ignis is one of those things: when I'm playing with it, I'm always like "oh there were enemies there?", or"whaaa? how did I even reach this guy?"

 

Honestly, if a custom crosshair was made for the Ignis, you wouldn't see it. It would be around your whole screen. Yes, even a wide-screen.

[Stinker]

Just like the Ogris, it's irrelevant when the faux difficulty of the game exceeds the weapon. There is a point where even a Bolto is better than an Ogris or an Ignis.

 

If you choose to never play the game to see that point, then that's great. Enjoy what appears to you as the golden gun, when in reality it's just a Klobb.

[Wolfstorm18]

Most of the whining in this thread has been from those opposing a nerf, your unfounded accusations included. However I think that most people, regardless of whether they are arguing for or against a change, have put forward considered points supported by the thinking behind them. You've been an exception in this respect too.

 

EDIT: No reason for a debate to turn nasty. I'm sure we can disagree and remain civil.

 

 

Enjoy your Credit Caches.

 

But keeping on topic: I've reached wave 40 in a Orokin Derelict Defense this last weekend, using Vauban, Ignis and Bronco Prime, and after wave 30 I was using more the Bronco Prime, because Ignis was only doing tickles in Ancients (who were above level 100 after that wave), and even light infested were resisting it a bit. My Ignis was with two V's and one - at that defense (I've put a Forma today for a third V) and with both fire mods at maximum.

 

So no, Ignis is not OP, but one of the most balanced weapons in this game. It can kill medium-level enemies fast, but after they reach level 100 is as useless as a Mk-1 Braton is for medium-level enemies. And since enemies at level 100 are just bullet sponges and cant count as real (tactical) difficulty, so Ignis is balanced for every situation in this game.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Wolfstorm18

[CaptainohCaptain]

There is a point where even a Bolto is better than an Ogris or an Ignis.

I'd love to see you showing this point.

There is a simple answer: there is no such point. Bolto is little slow unprecise wannabe-arpen gun which is outdated even before U9. But you free to try to persuade someone.

[Ozrik]

Tbh that loadout needs work.  Weapon is fine as is, can be just as effective with many other weapons.  People complain this is too weak this is too strong, its a freaking PvE game just have fun and enjoy the game and different weapons and styles.

[MJ12]

You talk a trash. You don't need to position yourself properly with Ignis, that's the whole problem! Ignis consist from w(hold) + Shift(hold) + space + LRM. Repeat till your hands will die, then switch to w + LRM. It's AoE starts from sick width and ends in sick width, going through everything. While when you are using other puncturing weapon, you have to line up your opponents for non-guaranteed results (heavy arcing|turn up to 70 degrees after first target can render projectile useless).

I would buy "it's only good versus crowds" if that game WOULDN'T be a game about killing crowds. Big part of weaponry rendered useless not because of bad base damage but low net output due to the fact that having a pack of 15-20 ahead is pretty average result anywhere past few minutes.

 

If you try this on any level where the Ignis isn't instantly dissolving enemies, what happens is that you get hit repeatedly and then die, because doing that means you make it a pure DPS-on-DPS contest between you and the enemy (which will be hitting you) and the enemy eventually wins that.

 

I've actually tried Eris survival with the Ignis, it is not an 'instant win button' that renders most enemies useless.

[MECT_HET]

I know, I know, it sounds pretty strange, especially after all the bad time he had, but right now it's pretty damn OP. Yes, due to his range and non-ap damage type he isn't used much but it doesn't change the reality.

 

Facerolling much?

On higher levels, the only one who stand a chance are heavies, you can destroy all the light targets, including ospreys, cameras, latchers, rollers, everybody unlucky to rely either on their shields instead of armor. All you have to do is charge and push your rocket at their direction. And then heavy won't do much to you.

On Gradivus Dilemma, I passed most of the missions with it, effectively collecting 93-98% of frags and damage without single attacking ability use, about 60-65% on Nova approach and 40-50% in worst scenario of messed spawns, bad hoster and having a Nova in the squad. If that is NOT sick, I don't know what to say.

 

 

Oh my gosh this CLAN WEAPON is totally destroying nooblevel mooks at ease! Let's nerf ogris!

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

Holy cowball.. Do you know why some ignis has super large aoe? 

ANS : Heavy caliber and firestorm.

I just craft it recently and the cone is not that big without these mods. And I don't see why you're complaining about this ruining your fun. They cleared trash mob for you, gave your gun exp and lessen the time spend grinding. And it used to be even more useless than grakata. Don't ruin something that is this beautiful please.