Helminth Infusion System proposal: Make it buff abilities by sacrificing converted Liches/Sisters

[Jarriaga]

Hey DE, I´ve been thinking: Since this proposed "infusion" system seems to be universally disliked, why not rework it into something that ties to the Sisters/Lich system considering it is coming with Sisters of Parvos? What if "Infusion" works by sacrificing a converted Lich/Sister so you can add its elemental attribute to a Warframe ability?

For example: Sacrifice a converted Lich with a 42% cold damage bonus to add a 42% cold damage bonus to Gauss's Mach Rush.

This elemental bonus should mirror/mimic the ability's properties (Crit/Status chance), and should work like Xaku's Xata's Whisper (It's own damage instance that is not fused with other elements) as to ensure base functions work as expected (A Toxin-infused Fire Blast causes both heat and toxin damage instead of Gas damage). Infusion remains with that ability until you decide to remove it, but the Lich/Sister is gone forever. You can infuse 1 Lich/Sister per ability assuming the ability has a base damage value the elemental bonus can scale from.

I think this would add a lot of value to converted Liches/Sisters and expand upon Helminth functions in a more controlled way that rewards player investment in both the Lich/Sister and Helminth systems, and adds long-term value to Lich/Sister enemies long after you're done farming their weapons.

PS: Mods, please don't fuse this proposal into the Helminth infusion workshop as this post will get buried and lost. 

[PublikDomain]

I don't particularly like the idea as written. Having raw damage added to any ability seems a bit overkill, and it only benefits the frames with damaging effects while others would get nothing. Maybe being able to subsume Lich abilities would be better? Or gaining some other frame-passive based on the Lich? Like you Infuse with a Lich that hates Kubrows and get a passive to Companion damage or something. A Lich that hates children gives you a reduced penalty when you die in your Operator. Etc.

43 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

PS: Mods, please don't fuse this proposal into the Helminth infusion workshop as this post will get buried and lost. 

I really hope they don't, there's a lot I want to say about these changes but it'd get merged and buried. Dumping all of the topics on the announcement threads just makes sure that no good feedback can be collected. Instead of having the individual, collected ideas neatly bundled in their own threads everything gets dumped into those 20+ page slogs that no one can follow. I hope the mods chill with this, because I don't see how DE's community team is going to get any good feedback from those threads.

[Jarriaga]

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Having raw damage added to any ability seems a bit overkill

Yet it is the logical next step in progression considering how Lich/Sister weapon bonusses work and DE already allowing you to change WF abilities via Helminth. This is not something that is not in the game already. DE introducing the infusion system means that they want for Helminth to be more than just ability replacements.

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

and it only benefits the frames with damaging effects while others would get nothing.

How come? These buffs are not mutually exclusive with Helminth abilities. You could add  Ice Wave to a frame and then infuse it with heat. Even if you play Nyx, Absorb would benefit because the bonus would trigger after Absorb damage. Yes, it doesn't benefit all frames the same way but that is true for everything in this game from mods to the Helminth ability pool.

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Maybe being able to subsume Lich abilities would be better?

Most of them are WF abilities. Only abilities that are unique and not currently part of a frame are:

- World on Fire (Heat Lich)

- Lightning Bolt (Electric Lich)

- Arc Mines (Electric Lich)

Those are simply not enough numbers to sustain constant Lich farming. Even if you were allowed to take any ability, it would mean some of them would give abilities that are already in the Helminth (Such as Fire Blast and Smite) or give ultimate abilities such as Molecular Prime (Electric Lich) and Miasma (Toxin Lich). Your proposal is a bigger overkill than an elemental damage bonus.

43 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Or gaining some other frame-passive based on the Lich? Like you Infuse with a Lich that hates Kubrows and get a passive to Companion damage or something. A Lich that hates children gives you a reduced penalty when you die in your Operator. Etc.

This is also extremely limiting considering just how rare it is to get a Lich with a quirk. Done 66 Liches and only 2 had quirks. 

The idea here is to integrate the Lich and Helminth systems to encourage constant Lich farming while thematically marrying it to an update that is going to bring Corpus Liche and Helminth updates. Content islands are a common complaint in the game. Content islands can only be corrected by tying different systems together so they benefit from one another.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

How come? These buffs are not mutually exclusive with Helminth abilities. You could add  Ice Wave to a frame and then infuse it with heat. Even if you play Nyx, Absorb would benefit because the bonus would trigger after Absorb damage. Yes, it doesn't benefit all frames the same way but that is true for everything in this game from mods the Helminth ability pool.

Hadn't thought of that, but still being able to put raw damage on a frame with a lot of damaging abilities is going to be more impactful than putting it on a frame that has few. There's an uneven level of benefit. Gauss has 3 abilities that could get a damage buff in this way, Loki has none. Something that can benefit every frame regardless of archetype might be better.

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The idea here is to integrate the Lich and Helminth systems to encourage constant Lich farming while thematically marrying it to an update that is going to bring Corpus Liche and Helminth updates. Content islands are a common complaint in the game. Content islands can only be corrected by tying different systems together so they benefit from one another.

And I think the idea of combining the two is a good idea, but maybe "just more damage" probably isn't it. 🤷‍♀️

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Hadn't thought of that, but still being able to put raw damage on a frame with a lot of damaging abilities is going to be more impactful than putting it on a frame that has few. There's an uneven level of benefit. Gauss has 3 abilities that could get a damage buff in this way, Loki has none. Something that can benefit every frame regardless of archetype might be better.

I agree with you in principle, but too many frames are outdated and I do not believe individual frames should hold back entire systems 40+ other frames could benefit from. You might as well argue that Umbral Fiber is an unfair mod because it greatly benefits Valkyr while being useless in Mirage.

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

but maybe "just more damage" probably isn't it. 🤷‍♀️

What would you then propose that respects the following guidelines above all else:

- Encourage constant Lich/Sister farming.

- Immediate benefit upon converting that Lich/Sister.

- Can be used at the same time as a subsumed ability; not an either or system.

Be my guest. 

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What would you then propose that respects the following guidelines above all else:

- Encourage constant Lich/Sister farming.

- Immediate benefit upon converting that Lich/Sister.

- Can be used at the same time as a subsumed ability; not an either or system.

Be my guest. 

Basically what I suggested? Extra passives based on the Lich itself. Passives based on quirk or element, maybe based on progenitor as well. You seem to be saying the same thing, but the only effect you're considering is damage.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

Basically what I suggested? Extra passives based on the Lich itself. Passives based on quirk or element, maybe based on progenitor as well. You seem to be saying the same thing, but the only effect you're considering is damage.

1) Passives based on quirks are not sustainable due to how exceedingly rare they are. This breaks requirement 2 as you can not guarantee your Lich will get a quirk and thus no immediate benefit.

2) Passives based on elements limit possible passives to just 7. This can potentially clash with requirement 1 depending on how many passives you can infuse per frame. In addition, this ties back to your own objection about bonusses that don't benefit all frames the same way or being inconsequential to the point of not bothering with it.

3) Passives based on the progenitor does allow for very frequent farming due to 40+ passives being available, but again, this also ties back to your own objection about bonusses that don't benefit all frames the same way. Some frames will be used as passive progenitors a lot more frequently than others based on the benefit of the passive, while others will be flat-out ignored. This is already an issue with the Helminth system considering abilities like Banish and Decoy are ignored.

The reason I propose a damage buff is because it is a lot more reliable and generally desirable than anything else. Yes, it is boring and not interesting. Yes, it is a bigger encouragement than Kubrow damage.

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1) Passives based on quirks are not sustainable due to how exceedingly rare they are. This breaks requirement 2 as you can not guarantee your Lich will get a quirk and thus no immediate benefit.

Which is why I said that element or progenitor could be an option as well. With 46 Progenitors (and more every update), 18 Lich quirks, 7 elements, and whatever variation Sisters bring there's a lot of room to implement different passives that are more than "just more damage". Maybe when you Infuse the Lich you get to choose which of the passives you get, so a Lich would always have two passives and a third if there's a quirk. Like spitball some quirk passives with me:

• Allergic To Nature: extra health when on non-natural maps
• Always Hungry: more health from orbs
• Bloodhound: passive loot radar
• Coward: extra armor when near allies
• Deserter: faster solo extraction
• Fear of Being Alone: extra Affinity range
• Fear of Children: no Transference Static
• Fear of Kubrows: beasts deal more damage
• Fear of Space Travel: extra health when on land-based maps
• Hatred of Corpus: faster shield regen
• Hatred of Infested: health regen
• Loner: +1 extra revive
• Paranoid: passive enemy radar
• Poor Sense of Balance: faster knockdown recovery
• Prone to Vertigo: increased height before doing a heavy landing
• Pyromaniac: gain energy from Heat procs
• Trophy Hunter: extra loot chance on Parazon kill
• Vain: more armor for every cosmetic equipped

What about passives for element?

• Impact: self-stagger resistance
• Heat: your heat procs last longer
• Cold: less slowdown when cold procced
• Electricity: no energy drain on electric damage
• Toxin: reduced toxin proc duration
• Magnetic: no energy drain on magnetic proc
• Radiation: rad proc immunity

And then progenitors could be all sorts of things, like passive slide from Nezha, or longer panic on Heat proc from Ember, or faster sprint from Gauss. This could be a fun and hugely diverse set of passives to play with.

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The reason I propose a damage buff is because it is a lot more reliable and generally desirable than anything else. Yes, it is boring and not interesting. Yes, it is a bigger encouragement than Kubrow damage.

If it's gonna be boring and uninteresting then why have it...? S'all I'm saying. Make it interesting, there's a lot of room for it to be.