Trivialization Of Warframes.

[Yg-Dosst]

Both these frames in their current state just annihilate the little depth this game had left.

 

1. You don't give high mobility and high damage to an already very tanky character. It's 101 balance. Vanguard should never have been implemented.

I don't see Frost players complaining about their speed. Maybe they finally understoood that it's the counterweight to their high survavibility.

 

2. You don't give ultimates high range and high damage. It's one or the other. Risk/reward ratio must be respected. Banshee's ult got nerfed for that. Be consistent. 

 

Oh and you don't give ults high damage, high range AND CC ON THE TOP. That's just.../facepalm

Unless you want one guy to single-handedly ruin the whole party teamwork by pressing one button over and over again.

Yes, you don't need support or crowd control when ONE ability does it all at the same time. And kills the enemy anyway.

Way to promote co-op DE, nicely done.

 

Essentially this.

 

It's not an issue of making them WEAKER, it's more of an issue of trying to make them Cooperative characters, rather then characters that force their allies to sit on the sidelines and watch as they play the game for them.

[NikolaiLev]

Downvote for hyperbole and histrionics.

 

Agreed.  1 downvote for hyperbole and histrionics, and 2 upvotes for Having Valid Points.

 

I'd love the utility vs. damage problem to be addressed.  How to do so, I have no clue, and I'm not sure DE even cares to do so.  Damage is problematically potent early game, so simply making numbers bigger will exacerbate that issue.  There has to be some scaling somewhere.

[TunaMayo]

So, you dislike frames that don't have useless abilities? Rhino's abilities just apply to nearly all situations, that's why he's so "good".

 

Let's stop being pessimistic and nerfing things, let's start being optimistic and buff things. Also, your sidenote about being kicked for not being a Rhino/Nova, sorry about that, but you shouldn't ask for a good frame to become a crappy frame just to stick it to people.

 

In reality, if a squad was like that, you wouldn't want to be in that squad in the first place. On the other hand, Pluto is a very touchy subject as people want to go to very high levels during survivals and defenses, and without a Rhino and Nova, it makes it all the more difficult.

 

[TL;DR] No more nerfing. Buff the things that suck, don't make everything suck.

 

I'm with this guy.

 

Before the release of the corrupted mods Rhino was seen as a good frame and Nova was seen as OP.

 

Now people are hating on Rhino because he can use certain corrupted mods with little downside making him very powerful. It's not the frames fault it's the mods.

 

I will be severely disappointed if my main frame Rhino gets nerfed because DE introduced some powerful mods and the community cried about it.

 

Nova on the other hand needs scaling down and this is being addressed, Scott has already mentioned it.

[Yg-Dosst]

 

Nova on the other hand needs scaling down and this is being addressed, Scott has already mentioned it.

 

Not really, She's in the same boat as Rhino. Being a Warframe that isn't very Cooperative.

In fact Nova is actually MORE cooperative then Rhino just by virtue of how squishy she is.

 

I think Neither need to be nerfed. They just need to be shifted or have some mechanical tweak that allows or forces them to be cooperative and play nicely with other players.

 

This is a cooperative game after all.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Agreed.  1 downvote for hyperbole and histrionics, and 2 upvotes for Having Valid Points.

What valid points? Baawing at how Rhino and Nova kill things effectively, just like Mag and Saryn? Just like a properly-built Ash spamming shuriken? Just like Excal slashdashing all the things ever?

Nova on the other hand needs scaling down and this is being addressed, Scott has already mentioned it.

I honestly don't think she does. The only real problem with her is that she can spam her ult. Making it power in use ala chaos or stomp would alleviate this issue for nova... And then make people complain about Saryn, Vaubs, Mag, etc.

I mean, during the event I played with a lot of novas who kept getting downed because they were so squishy. Right now she's a good glass cannon. She can do lots of damage and has some extra debuffs for when damage isn't enough, but her shields will evaporate under enemy fire as low as level 50.

Scaling down M Prime will remove the cannon part of that and leave us with glass.

[5stareraser]

Ppl like u ruin every game. If they cant reach the grapes it means they r not good at all. Just try 2 play better m8. Every warframe can do almost everything.

[NikolaiLev]

What valid points? Baawing at how Rhino and Nova kill things effectively, just like Mag and Saryn? Just like a properly-built Ash spamming shuriken? Just like Excal slashdashing all the things ever?

 

 

Rhino can kill things just as well as Excalibur in addition to having massive disruption and the best defense in the game, not to mention his supportive capacity and lategame scaling.  He has mounds of utility more.

 

Utility is the problem.  The OP might've had a tinge of whininess to it, but it outlines the general issue with frame balance: utility is more powerful lategame than damage, and arguably, the more utility a given frame has, the more likely it is to be useful.

 

Frankly, the notion that "every warframe can do almost everything" is also a problem, because it indicates homogeneity in the game.  But that's a slightly different argument.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Utility is the problem.  The OP might've had a tinge of whininess to it, but it outlines the general issue with frame balance: utility is more powerful lategame than damage, and arguably, the more utility a given frame has, the more likely it is to be useful.

Meaning that if you want other frames to compete lategame, they need utility of their own. Taking away Rhino or Nova or whoever's utility means that you're just creating a power vacuum that the next most useful frame will fill, until that's nerfed. Then this will continue until all the frames have no utility, ie are useless.

[Aimop95]

You guys realize that Rhino really can be said to be OP..

 

Nova is offset by her squishiness, which at high levels, makes her very vulnerable to everything. It's only because she has people covering her back in a team is when she is at her best.

[rksk16it]

Ppl like u ruin every game. If they cant reach the grapes it means they r not good at all. Just try 2 play better m8. Every warframe can do almost everything.

 

Nope. What Banshee, Rhino and Nova can do in Laaaaaaaaaaaaaate... MUCH MUCH LAAATER than what ppl typically call LATE... that late game, no other frame can.

 

And that is : Bonus dmg from weapons. Multiplying the damage of the Soma which has a rank-10 serration and rank-10 heavy caliber. If you got those mods at rank 10, slot them into a potato'd 5x forma'd Soma, and shoot at an enemy debuffed with sonar and mprime, while you have Roar buff.

 

Mag can do that too (bullet attractor) but it messes up with Sonar, makes those spots much harder to hit.

[fatpig84]

My loki laughs at Rhino players in level 120 alerts.

Come again ?

[rksk16it]

My loki laughs at Rhino players in level 120 alerts.

Come again ?

 

Wasnt talking about level 120, that aint "late" enough. I meant an hour or more duration on high level survivals (lvl 250+ enemies) when they start getting some serious amounts of hitpoints and even armor ignore weapons have to struggle to bring them down.

 

Also, I meant an organised team, not solo Rhino. Ofc there will be a Loki or any similarly strong CC/support/utility frame, but then you will need weapon dmg enhancing frames too, or else your kill rate will slow down significantly. If you can hold them forever (like in defense missions) then its just a matter of time, but in survival you will start running out of oxy if you cant kill them fast enough.

Edited November 3, 2013 by rksk16it

[NikolaiLev]

Meaning that if you want other frames to compete lategame, they need utility of their own. Taking away Rhino or Nova or whoever's utility means that you're just creating a power vacuum that the next most useful frame will fill, until that's nerfed. Then this will continue until all the frames have no utility, ie are useless.

 

Except that I don't think we should do either.  That kind of thinking is too rigid.  The real thing we should be doing is seeing how we can make damage useful in the late game without making it silly in the early game.

 

Perhaps another +Power Strength mod.  Or maybe Armor 2.0 will change how late game enemies work so ability damage can remain useful from early game to end game.  Or ability damages should be changed to/receive portions of %HP.

 

For instance, nerfing Excalibur's javelins by half, and then allowing it to do 50% or so of an enemy's HP in serrated blade damage.  That's an arbitrary number and might be stupidly overpowered/not powerful enough, but you get the general idea.

[Tsukinoki]

I have one question to the "Buff everything and nerf nothing!" crowd

What happens when you buff everything to the point where the game plays itself?
Do you then buff up the enemies to the same level to provide the challenge and fun?
Once you do that wouldn't you just be back at the same level everything is at now?  (Besides the fact that the numbers are larger but porpotionally the same?)
So wouldn't to be faster, easier, and better to just lower the stuff to a reasonable level then the long path of buffing *everything*(including the enemies) to some arbitrarily high level?

I mean, whats really the difference from dealing 10 damage to something with 100 health, as compared to dealing 100 damage to something with 1000 health?  It'll take the same effort and time and everything it does now...so why buff all the numbers up when it wont really serve a purpose and will just be harder to really balance?

EDIT:
As an example of how the "Buff everything" goes in game (And I have seen this happen in a few MMOs):
You deal 10 damage while the enemies have 100 health.  Takes you 10 hits to kill them.
People start calling for buffs because things are hard due to tactics and other things.
So they buff the weapons to dealing 50 damage.
Now people start calling to make the game harder because its too easy.
So they buff the enemies health to 500
Now that everything is back to what it was before (again, baring that now things are just 5 times larger numbers) they start calling for buffs because its too hard....and the cycle repeats.
That is what I find wrong with the people calling for no nerfs whatsoever and that only buffs should be issued.
When making a game you CANT take stands like that.  You have to look to BALANCE a game through BOTH buffs AND nerfs.  And while the numbers I used are BS(and that I had cut out quite a few iterations of this) it serves to showcase the point Im trying to bring up.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[rksk16it]

I have one question to the "Buff everything and nerf nothing!" crowd

What happens when you buff everything to the point where the game plays itself?

Do you then buff up the enemies to the same level to provide the challenge and fun?

Once you do that wouldn't you just be back at the same level everything is at now?  (Besides the fact that the numbers are larger but porpotionally the same?)

So wouldn't to be faster, easier, and better to just lower the stuff to a reasonable level then the long path of buffing *everything*(including the enemies) to some arbitrarily high level?

I mean, whats really the difference from dealing 10 damage to something with 100 health, as compared to dealing 100 damage to something with 1000 health?  It'll take the same effort and time and everything it does now...so why buff all the numbers up when it wont really serve a purpose and will just be harder to really balance?

 

This.

[BlueIstari]

The problem with Rhino and Nova isn't that they're powerful, it's that they are they are the only two 'frames who's abilities are all useful, and fill an essential group role as damage amps in addition to doing formidable damage on their own. Quite frankly, they're the only 'frames I think have been designed correctly (even though I really would rather have Radial Blast back on Rhino, to be honest; I have always hated the idea of him playing a support role). Most other 'frames have one or two dud skills that you'd never feel the need to use, and you're lucky if even one of them can be helpful to the group as a whole. Even worse, there are 'frames who's sole contribution is providing some kind of group utility with nothing else to offer. In conclusion, Nova and Rhino are mechanically fine, and other 'frames need the kind of revamp that Rhino (and Mag to some extent, though they butchered her utility with Pull v3) recieved several updates back.

 

That's not to say nerfs aren't welcome though. DE can balance however the hell they want, and if they think it's better to scale down players to make content more difficult rather than creating tougher content that makes older weapons and untuned 'frames even more obsolete, then so be it. It won't make other 'frames skills any more mechanically useful though, and people will keep whining.

Edited November 3, 2013 by BlueIstari

[413X]

[...]

 

I am just going to point out that I got pseudo-kicked from a lobby for NOT running a Rhino or Nova in Paulas/Pluto (I was going to use a NYX)

 

[...]

 

As a Rhino user myself, I've never thought of other WFs as irrelevant. In fact, Nyx is a favourite party member when I Rhino since it helps to keep the pressure off. And no, Stomp is not a "100% CC kills everything in 1-shot" panacea at very high levels, especially when you are wearing a vanguard helmet which penalises your power strength. In most cases I'd rather hold off on stomp so that Nyx's Chaos can do its thing, only using it for the real "Oh S#&$!" moments.

 

Even then, rescues can be foiled by the sheer number of "floaters" left alive between my Rhino and the downed party member (Not sure if mag pull helps with that problem since so few people seem to want to play mag on high levels but if it does it would be nice). So frankly, having a snowglobe or bastille to hide in and not get pincushioned or mauled might be a better idea than relying on stomp stasis to buy time for a revive, because it does create problems of its own sometimes.

 

TL;DR - stop playing with uncooperative players and you'll have a much better experience. If you had a bad experience being hassled for your warframe choice that's sad, but that seems to have less to do with the warframes and more to do with the kind of people you hang with it. Yes, there are unpleasant people on warframe - just the other day a guy cussed me in recruiting for getting disconnected despite the fact that it was obviously an issue with the game client (I live in Japan and I have a great internet connection) which I have absolutely no control over. That does not mean there are no decent people playing. Find them, and run missions with them, instead of the rude and unpleasant ones. That's all.

[Nazaca]

It won't make other 'frames skills any more mechanically useful though, and people will keep whining.

 

This.  Precisely and exactly this.

[fatpig84]

Wasnt talking about level 120, that aint "late" enough. I meant an hour or more duration on high level survivals (lvl 250+ enemies) when they start getting some serious amounts of hitpoints and even armor ignore weapons have to struggle to bring them down.

 

Also, I meant an organised team, not solo Rhino. Ofc there will be a Loki or any similarly strong CC/support/utility frame, but then you will need weapon dmg enhancing frames too, or else your kill rate will slow down significantly. If you can hold them forever (like in defense missions) then its just a matter of time, but in survival you will start running out of oxy if you cant kill them fast enough.

 

I can argue this is basically content that most people won't ever play.

The highest I ever went was level 270+ mobs in a defence game after that we can't be bothered and just left.

 

And ultimately the best damage boosting frame now is Blind Rage Banshee with her Sonar letting you hit 1150% IIRC. 

Cap this off with Nova and you do a ton of damage provided you can see the spots.

 

Without need Rhino, freeing 1 more slot for Trinity for 30 second Team invuln or Nyx/Loki and Frost / Vauban depending on def type.  Or Nekro if you want survival since he doubles the chance of another oxy drop.

 

 

Rhino doesn't scale as hard as Nova or Banshee in pure DPS power period but he does his job in mid to lower end games. 

Of course he can be a very good stunner if built correctly but Rhino, IMO doesn't scale as hard.

Edited November 3, 2013 by fatpig84

[Ferriwind]

My top picks for high level content, in order, would be:

Trinity- godmode

Nova- slow, 2X damage

Loki- only if you have Nova and/or Vauban

Vauban- especially with Loki

Mag- when she gets PullV2 back

[Inofor]

No. No nerfing. Buff the other frames instead. Nerfing is a terrible band-aid on a gaping wound.

 

And while you're at it, buff the enemies as well so that we cant just lolno everything.

If you buff the enemies enough to not die instantly against molecular prime, new players with no mods etc. will have a much harder time starting.

[Cwierz]

It won't make other 'frames skills any more mechanically useful though, and people will keep whining.

So the solution is to now buff everything to a faceroll?

How about no.

 

If you really want to make a difference in the usefulness of abilities you need to look at the enemy AI.

 

I feel like I am literally the only person advocating this, the AI (and debatablely the variety and scaling) is the core problem in this game. We have made everything SO powerful without stepping back to look at what we are fighting. The AI is un communicative, leading to bullet spongy like enemies, which in turn means that EVERYTHING needs to be on the same general utility or damage level as everything else to make a balanced game. Buffing is just gonna lead to a #4key_prime game where you never need to do anything.

 

I could rant about this for hours. There is SO much potential in this engine and game it's ridiculous, but we just wanna turn it into a faceroll because we don't wanna adress the core problems.

 

 

If you insist ...

 

Most of the frames are designed for a game that Warframe never was and never will be.  There is a gap between the Warframe in DE's heads and the Warframe we play.  For so long as that discrepancy exists, there shall always be suboptimal frames, weapons, mods, etc in the game.

 

Adjusting the generally useful frames to be more situational merely makes it so that it doesn't matter what frame you are using because the frame itself brings nothing of worth to the table.  Every ability on every frame should be either generally useful or obscenely overpowered in its' narrow application.  The frame one chooses should have an effect; each should play very differently indeed in the hands of a skilled player.

 

So, no, the frames you call out don't need to be nerfed.  The other frames should be made useful instead.

Hmm, I actually see where you are coming from on this. However everyone atm seems to be at the misconception that I meant that they should be nerfed "for the hek of it" and "other S#&$". I am saying they need a nerf because not only are they the best all around frames but they are also the easiest. There is such a high skill floor/reward imbalance it is hard to justify them being balanced. It is ridiculous to think that just because another frame beats them at ONE situation they are balanced, because more time then naught they just fill every role they need to. Every other frame pales in comparison. 

I am speaking in experience right now, I actually had a rhino a while back, and just finished leveling nova. They faceroll EVERYTHING. They are the fastest and best in class in their roles.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Cwierz

[MageMeat]

Nova is used for destroying things and getting to hard-to-reach places (the latter can be performed by a variety of other frames with relative ease).

That's all she's good for. Carrying the player to high levels until that M-Prime leaves some level 80 Grineer Heavy Gunner (or if you're extremely unlucky a Scorch) to faceroll Nova.

 

Rhino is a jack of all trades, but master of none. His CC is among the most powerful but can still be matched (Loki, Nyx, Vauban), and his supportive/defensive capabilities pale in comparison to a Trinity. His damage boost, while useful, still is not much.

Edited November 3, 2013 by MageMeat

[rksk16it]

I can argue this is basically content that most people won't ever play.

The highest I ever went was level 270+ mobs in a defence game after that we can't be bothered and just left.

 

And ultimately the best damage boosting frame now is Blind Rage Banshee with her Sonar letting you hit 1150% IIRC. 

Cap this off with Nova and you do a ton of damage provided you can see the spots.

 

Without need Rhino, freeing 1 more slot for Trinity for 30 second Team invuln or Nyx/Loki and Frost / Vauban depending on def type.  Or Nekro if you want survival since he doubles the chance of another oxy drop.

 

 

Rhino doesn't scale as hard as Nova or Banshee in pure DPS power period but he does his job in mid to lower end games. 

Of course he can be a very good stunner if built correctly but Rhino, IMO doesn't scale as hard.

 

Agree with the part that most players wont play at that level.

 

However, with max Blind Rage and Focus, Rhino will actually provide better dmg boost than Nova, since Nova's ult's dmg boosting part is not affected by power strength, Rhino's roar does.

 

Also, there are some warframes (there is atleast one i know of), who can single handedly lock down a large group of enemies, they will never shoot, never melee, you wont need trinity. You can have a nova, a rhino and a banshee. I am not going to mention which frame it is cuz it has the potential to cause lots of argument, but using that frame and a rhino, 2-manned Ceres=>Casta to wave 20, the Rhino was just walking around killing stationary targets with ease. We left at 20 cuz he had to go.

Edited November 3, 2013 by rksk16it

[ThePresident777]

Let's be blunt here. 

Nova.

Rhino.

 

These two frames trivialize EVERY other frame (except frost and Vauban ofc). There is literally no point to having a squad that consists of ANY other frames unless its defense or you want to stealth. Let me explain here

 

Rhino- With rhino charge, vanguard, and rush he is now the fastest frame. His Two power and his bulk makes him the bulkiest frame in the game. His Three Power makes him arguably one of the best team support frames, with this ability seconded only too Chaos and Sonar in its category. His 4 ability is basically Banshees Sound quake, with a larger radius and freedom of movement. Rhino is a very good frame, however he NEEDS to be toned down to make room for other frames. At the present moment he is literally just to good compared to every other frame except uh....

 

 

Nova-

#4-Key-Prime

 

I am just going to point out that I got pseudo-kicked from a lobby for NOT running a Rhino or Nova in Paulas/Pluto (I was going to use a NYX)

 

This isn't going to be magically "fixed" with armor 2.0 either.

Stop using armor 2.0 as an excuse.

There is still going to be a gap beetween base stats and you know it, the soma and vectis are still going to be leagues better than other weapons. 

 

If two pieces of content trivialze every other frame in the game (with a couple of exceptions) then that isn't right. I don't care how much you scream "STOP NERFING THINGS!!1!one!eleven!" It needs to happen. It is SO much easier to nerf to things than to bring every other piece of content up to par with them, not to mention helping with powercreep.

 

No, buff the lame stuff.  You don't break the stuff that works so that everything is broken.