Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[Cwierz]

So you don't care if it takes 10 years to kill an enemy or 10 milliseconds.  

Putting words in my mouth is not good debate practice. 

If you are going to go down the route of "M Prime takes time to kill", just don't. Save yourself from looking like a fool.

M Prime, after the first 2-4 deaths will instantly kill every enemy in the group. Instantly after a couple gunned deaths is better than 3 recasts of your miasma or whatever trust me.

[7grims]

Buff the other warframes.

 

and then they buff all the enemies, and they buff all the frames again, and they buff all the enemies again... etc and forever

[7grims]

There is no way to justify why nova is so much better than every other frame.

 

she is so powerful because she is fragile, if she couldn't blow the enemies with M prime, she would be a punching bag, made of glass.

that's why I keep saying that "nerf" might not be the proper word, but a change, so she can still stand on her own, but without ppl abusing her and exploiting M prime all the time, everywere.

[7grims]

I say we shouldn't nerf Vauban of Frost or Trinity or anything in Warframe.  As simple as these ideas are(i.e. the things you want to nerf), they are a huge part of what makes Warframe unique and better than crap games like ME3 and Neverwinter Online.

 

The nerfs make Warframe into just another game.  That's what all these vague design philosophies are conducive too.  They are just a way to make nerf nerf nerf seem creative when it's anything but.  Nerfs are just regressive.

 

Like the way you think.

still, nova is unbalanced, either with nerf or tweek, something should change.

[-CM-Syein]

Like the way you think.

still, nova is unbalanced, either with nerf or tweek, something should change.

the unbalance things you talking about is too squishy but too much dps. So her squishiness made up for her dps, I think that's the balance part. Unless people don't want an offense frame to exist, then sure, make nova more strong in survival but decrease her dps power. That's the balance I'm talking about. Not the nerf nerf nerf frame into a useless frame. 

 

oh btw, the main reason most people wanted nova to be nerf is not because her power is too strong, but because she stole the kills of people in low level mission. (yes I did said low level) 

 

When encounter higher mobs, people would wanted nova to spam m-prime. So, uses when convenience, throw away when not need logic. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by SElZE

[NikolaiLev]

I think a good way to balance MPrime and make it skill based is keep it as is, but make it single-target.

 

When that enemy dies, it explodes as it does now, but any enemies hit by the explosion get the MPrime effect on them.  It has an extremely short duration (4-5s), but it has synergy with both single target (initially) and AoE (which will help set off the chain reaction at the later end).

 

It would play similarily to Venom, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as it still has its own unique flavor.  It'd be balanced and it'd take more talent to make use of, as it'd be possible to just whiff an MPrime if you can't catch the targetted enemy.

 

In the same breath, her Antimatter Drop should be buffed, somehow.  Damage, projectile speed, something.  It could also have a unique interaction with MPrime in that if an Antimatter explosion hits an MPrime'd enemy and a non MPrime'd enemy, the MPrime effect "bridges over" and affects the second target as well.

 

Her Null Star could refresh the duration of targets with MPrime hit.  It might be a good idea to thus allow it to be targeted (pressing 1 again would launch one), but maybe not.

 

Basically, we'd be making Nova into a unique kit centered around dealing massive AoE with the requirement of resource management; in order to achieve your huge damage potential, you need to properly mix up your abilities to spread it around and keep it up long enough for you and/or your teammates to trigger it.  She'd demand teamwork.  She'd demand skill.  Suddenly, she's interesting, and deserves her power.

[ThePresident777]

Putting words in my mouth is not good debate practice. 

If you are going to go down the route of "M Prime takes time to kill", just don't. Save yourself from looking like a fool.

M Prime, after the first 2-4 deaths will instantly kill every enemy in the group. Instantly after a couple gunned deaths is better than 3 recasts of your miasma or whatever trust me.

 

You stated that it was irrelevant.  Which is too say you don't care.  So, no one put words in your mouth in regards to this question.

 

In a game about killing, TTK is important.  The fact that you think it is not shows me that you have no design for this game.  You talk about logic and math yet you have no design.  Which makes you just as biased as the rest of us.  You're constantly telling people here that their bias is irrelevant because it is not supported by logic or math.  Yet, you have no logic or math to support your claims either.

[ThePresident777]

and then they buff all the enemies, and they buff all the frames again, and they buff all the enemies again... etc and forever

 

Or not.

[ThePresident777]

she is so powerful because she is fragile, if she couldn't blow the enemies with M prime, she would be a punching bag, made of glass.

that's why I keep saying that "nerf" might not be the proper word, but a change, so she can still stand on her own, but without ppl abusing her and exploiting M prime all the time, everywere.

 

When I play with another nova, and I'm playing another warframe, and they don't constantly use mprime(for large enemy groups, no sense in using it on one enemy unless it's boss like) then I feel that something is missing, something is wrong.  I want other novas to prime the crap out of the mobs.  I want to see those explosions!  It's fun for me!  I'm here for the explosions and fast fluid movement!  I want to launch my warframe into the air and blow up enemies while I sail past them like lightning.  KABOOM!!!!!!!  It's fun, for me.  I spent money on Warframe, for the fun, for me.  Do you know of any other games where I could do this?

[metlock]

For me 

Nova has this annoying (sometimes useful) passive and random ability where if something shoots at you, you will teleport behind them. 

Well that made me die.....

Apart from that nova is solid, leave her alone

[Rakosta_Kai]

Nova isn't balanced for low level content. Her skills work just fine on high level mobs though. This is consistent with most of the 'frames that have a high damage, wide ranging,  AOE #4 skill.

 

My only issue with her is the same I have with the rest of those frames... The player running them at the time.

 

Sure, running into a room and letting off a #4 before you've even gotten shot at guarantees that "Orange" moniker at the missions end (like that matters....), but it also kills my weapon XP and thereby my mastery rank progression.

 

Which is why I run the bulk of my missions in solo mode when I need to level a weapon.

[Phobose]

There really is no problem with Nova's Molecular prime. Primed targets when playing with a party benefits your team mates more than nova herself. When using M prime or any other ability will grant the caster pure warframe xp but, your teammates will recieve the same amount of experience distributed to their frame and all their weapons. I believe the distribution is 125% to the ability or weapon that killed that specific enemy and 25% is distributed to the other three weapons. These numbers aren't the exact percentage of xp recieved but that distribution system is in effect when with more than 1 person.

[Cwierz]

There really is no problem with Nova's Molecular prime. Primed targets when playing with a party benefits your team mates more than nova herself. When using M prime or any other ability will grant the caster pure warframe xp but, your teammates will recieve the same amount of experience distributed to their frame and all their weapons. I believe the distribution is 125% to the ability or weapon that killed that specific enemy and 25% is distributed to the other three weapons. These numbers aren't the exact percentage of xp recieved but that distribution system is in effect when with more than 1 person.

nope, it is 25% to everything.

If you kill it with just the weapon the weapon gets 50% and the warframe gets 50%

[NikolaiLev]

When I play with another nova, and I'm playing another warframe, and they don't constantly use mprime(for large enemy groups, no sense in using it on one enemy unless it's boss like) then I feel that something is missing, something is wrong.  I want other novas to prime the crap out of the mobs.  I want to see those explosions!  It's fun for me!  I'm here for the explosions and fast fluid movement!  I want to launch my warframe into the air and blow up enemies while I sail past them like lightning.  KABOOM!!!!!!!  It's fun, for me.  I spent money on Warframe, for the fun, for me.  Do you know of any other games where I could do this?

 

Serious Sam?

 

Except there, you actually need skill to succeed.  :p

 

I have no problem with Nova being the "omg explosions!" frame, I just wish she didn't outmode all other AoE without a significant skill investment.

[Cwierz]

You stated that it was irrelevant.  Which is too say you don't care.  So, no one put words in your mouth in regards to this question.

Are you serious?

Irrelevant does not equal caring. Hello?! Do you need a dictionary?

You could bring up my family member on trail in court (hypothetical) and I would say it is irrelevant to the discussion, but would that mean that I don't care. No. It would not.

 

Irrelevant: Not pertaining to the subject.

 

Not Caring: No interest.

 

And before you start to bang on me, how about you entertain all factors of the debate and stop using twisted logic, literally the argument in that post ignored so many factors, it would be like ignoring snow globes ability to stop damage coming in and only thinking of it as a slowing skill.

 

Ill outline M Prime really quick here

 

Upon detonation the enemy is hit for 800 blast damage, multiplied by 2 for 1600, any further deaths afterwards will stack. This means if you kill 3 light units in a horde of t3 defense enemies, you just killed the entire group.

 

Highest Reliable damage output in the ult category, period.

 

Slowing of movement

 

Slowing of enemy DPS due to decreased fire rate

 

Damage AMP.

 

Largest range of all ults. 

 

Most cost effective, coming in at 25 energy with no drawbacks.

 

Lets compare this to a couple other baseline nukes-

 

Rhino Stomp-

 

800 damage (unconfirmed bug when it hits twice so it could be 1600)

 

Reduces enemy movement speed to 2.5% and launches them in the air for 8 seconds.

 

Not recast able until full 8 seconds have expired.

 

25 Meters.

 

Miasma-

 

1000 corrosive damage (I believe)

 

possible stun for 4 seconds

 

15 meters

 

 

 

Look at these two abilities, the stereotypical nukes of the game. Look at M Prime, and notice how it effectively doubles nova's capacity for damage on all content that would not one shot any frame. I want to see you tell me that this should be the baseline for all warframes, how it will not make the game &!$$ easy, and why Nova is allowed to overshadow other frames by so much.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Cwierz

[Killerdude8]

*snip*

But Nova is totally balanced!!

I swear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

/sarcasm

[-CM-Syein]

Serious Sam?

 

Except there, you actually need skill to succeed.  :p

 

I have no problem with Nova being the "omg explosions!" frame, I just wish she didn't outmode all other AoE without a significant skill investment.

sry but, to my knowledge, being a tank required the most less skill. Yes, her dps is op, but always remember she is still a squishy frame. Also she can't no longer chain explode in high mission. (I don't remember how many times I keep repeat this) 

[-CM-Syein]

Are you serious?

Irrelevant does not equal caring. Hello?! Do you need a dictionary?

You could bring up my family member on trail in court (hypothetical) and I would say it is irrelevant to the discussion, but would that mean that I don't care. No. It would not.

 

Irrelevant: Not pertaining to the subject.

 

Not Caring: No interest.

 

And before you start to bang on me, how about you entertain all factors of the debate and stop using twisted logic, literally the argument in that post ignored so many factors, it would be like ignoring snow globes ability to stop damage coming in and only thinking of it as a slowing skill.

 

Ill outline M Prime really quick here

 

Upon detonation the enemy is hit for 800 blast damage, multiplied by 2 for 1600, any further deaths afterwards will stack. This means if you kill 3 light units in a horde of t3 defense enemies, you just killed the entire group.

 

Highest Reliable damage output in the ult category, period.

 

Slowing of movement

 

Slowing of enemy DPS due to decreased fire rate

 

Damage AMP.

 

Largest range of all ults. 

 

Most cost effective, coming in at 25 energy with no drawbacks.

 

Lets compare this to a couple other baseline nukes-

 

Rhino Stomp-

 

800 damage (unconfirmed bug when it hits twice so it could be 1600)

 

Reduces enemy movement speed to 2.5% and launches them in the air for 8 seconds.

 

Not recast able until full 8 seconds have expired.

 

25 Meters.

 

Miasma-

 

1000 corrosive damage (I believe)

 

possible stun for 4 seconds

 

15 meters

 

 

 

Look at these two abilities, the stereotypical nukes of the game. Look at M Prime, and notice how it effectively doubles nova's capacity for damage on all content that would not one shot any frame. I want to see you tell me that this should be the baseline for all warframes, how it will not make the game &!$$ easy, and why Nova is allowed to overshadow other frames by so much.

you only stating and comparing damage, but you forgot about survival, def, and solo abilities. It's obvious who would win. 

[Cwierz]

you only stating and comparing damage, but you forgot about survival, def, and solo abilities. It's obvious who would win. 

All frames after a certain point are one shotted. Because the game scales exponentially the level frame in which the change occurs is a very small segment of about 5 levels. Everything below that is easy to survive because M Prime lowers their DPS on you, and past that it really doesn't matter to much when the only frame that can survive is a trinity. That argument is flawed, and I am tired of you still pretending like it isn't. If you do not know how the scaling system works in this game, and what the core problems the game is currently afflicted from(AI, Lack of design direction, etc.) are you Should not post serious feedback until you educate yourself on them. 

Solo she is exactly the same, she doesn't need a team to function well, she needs a team to draw aggro from a pod or spawn more air, but she doesn't need a team to do anything else.

 

You also didn't these key questions-

 

Why is she allowed to overshadow all damage frames for no drawbacks?

 

How further do you trivialize content by making her the baseline standard?

 

There is also a thread by the name of something similar to lower player power to revamp the game that offers quite a bit of food for thought.

[-CM-Syein]

All frames after a certain point are one shotted. Because the game scales exponentially the level frame in which the change occurs is a very small segment of about 5 levels. Everything below that is easy to survive because M Prime lowers their DPS on you, and past that it really doesn't matter to much when the only frame that can survive is a trinity. That argument is flawed, and I am tired of you still pretending like it isn't. If you do not know how the scaling system works in this game, and what the core problems the game is currently afflicted from(AI, Lack of design direction, etc.) are you Should not post serious feedback until you educate yourself on them. 

Solo she is exactly the same, she doesn't need a team to function well, she needs a team to draw aggro from a pod or spawn more air, but she doesn't need a team to do anything else.

 

You also didn't these key questions-

 

Why is she allowed to overshadow all damage frames for no drawbacks?

 

How further do you trivialize content by making her the baseline standard?

 

There is also a thread by the name of something similar to lower player power to revamp the game that offers quite a bit of food for thought.

- so are you saying that a def frame is ok but not offense? She able to overshadow all damage frames because they are better than her in other areas beside damage. 

-No, there are frames that won't be one shot in high level mission, because their abilities help them survive. 

-Base on what you said, every frames capable of stealing damage from other players easily when running low level missions, Nova won't be the exception. You haven't see a mag spamming pull (yes, pull capable of killing low level mobs, less energy, faster than m-prime, but with a shorter range) , or a Rhino spam stomp, it's an instant dead etc. I'm talking about low level here, if that what you argue about. 

-Do you know why even though Nova damage is so good, most player still preferred Rhino? He is good at everything. 

-If you nerf her power, so what? There are tons of other frames capable of spam skill such as Nova, are you gonna nerf them as well?

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't against tweaking her power, she need change ok, but not nerf. The Nova bug that affecting her power the other days basically turn Nova into an almost useless frame to run in any mission. (but DE fixed that) 

She is a frames that constantly depend on other frames.

When a frames is not an independent frame, I don't see how she can be op. In any area excepted damage. 

Frost won't be one shot, Trinity won't be one shot, Rhino's stomp turn enemies into floating won't be one shot, mag shield polarize won't be one shot, Valkyr in hysteria mode won't be one shot, loki radial disarm won't be one shot etc___  

A survival run full with Nova only won't last long compared to combination of frames together. 

[ThePresident777]

Are you serious?

Irrelevant does not equal caring. Hello?! Do you need a dictionary?

You could bring up my family member on trail in court (hypothetical) and I would say it is irrelevant to the discussion, but would that mean that I don't care. No. It would not.

 

Irrelevant: Not pertaining to the subject.

 

Not Caring: No interest.

 

No one cares because it's irrelevant.

 

 

 

And before you start to bang on me, how about you entertain all factors of the debate and stop using twisted logic, literally the argument in that post ignored so many factors, it would be like ignoring snow globes ability to stop damage coming in and only thinking of it as a slowing skill.

 

 

 

 

I've got my priorities straight, fun fun fun for a diverse player base within a theme: coop, fast and fluid, parkour, guns, melee, powers/abilities, explosions, broken industry conventions, "unlame", radical, game modes, mission variety, etc.

 

 

Ill outline M Prime really quick here

 

Upon detonation the enemy is hit for 800 blast damage, multiplied by 2 for 1600, any further deaths afterwards will stack. This means if you kill 3 light units in a horde of t3 defense enemies, you just killed the entire group.

 

Highest Reliable damage output in the ult category, period.

 

Slowing of movement

 

Slowing of enemy DPS due to decreased fire rate

 

Damage AMP.

 

Largest range of all ults. 

 

Most cost effective, coming in at 25 energy with no drawbacks.

 

Lets compare this to a couple other baseline nukes-

 

Rhino Stomp-

 

800 damage (unconfirmed bug when it hits twice so it could be 1600)

 

Reduces enemy movement speed to 2.5% and launches them in the air for 8 seconds.

 

Not recast able until full 8 seconds have expired.

 

25 Meters.

 

Miasma-

 

1000 corrosive damage (I believe)

 

possible stun for 4 seconds

 

15 meters

 

 

 

Look at these two abilities, the stereotypical nukes of the game. Look at M Prime, and notice how it effectively doubles nova's capacity for damage on all content that would not one shot any frame. I want to see you tell me that this should be the baseline for all warframes, how it will not make the game &!$$ easy, and why Nova is allowed to overshadow other frames by so much.

 

 

It should be the baseline for all nuke ults.  

 

You are taking this into a vacuum when you claim that it will make the game easy.  You are ignoring the fact that enemies scale.  You are ignoring the entire level system.  You are treating the game as static.  And, you have no concept of TTK to begin with so you will not be able to unite the two concepts.  Therefore, your analysis is lacking in relevance.

 

And, you are ignoring the fact that mprime multiplies other powers.  A team of 4 Novas is weaker than a diverse team which has one Nova and 3 other nukers.  It's a coop game.  Let's not ignore that.  mprime  x 2 << mprime + other nuke.

Edited December 28, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Cwierz]

 

snip

The first step to fixing the problems in this game is to create balance. This is undeniable, and trying to deny it is futile. It doesn't matter how much you ignore it or argue with it because it will be true regardless. 

 

It doesn't matter how much you call it my "philosophy", because the game will turn into maple story with your way of approaching the problem.

 

I am done trying to argue with you, if not only because you fail to see the entire problem, but also because you don't know how to actually fix it.

[NikolaiLev]

The first step to fixing the problems in this game is to create balance. This is undeniable, and trying to deny it is futile. It doesn't matter how much you ignore it or argue with it because it will be true regardless. 

 

It doesn't matter how much you call it my "philosophy", because the game will turn into maple story with your way of approaching the problem.

 

I am done trying to argue with you, if not only because you fail to see the entire problem, but also because you don't know how to actually fix it.

 

To be fair, plenty of people like MapleStory.  For some reason.

[Cwierz]

To be fair, plenty of people like MapleStory.  For some reason.

I guess that is true. But maple story is just a giant skinner box. I can guarantee you that they think they are enjoying it, but in actuality it is a terrible game.

[NikolaiLev]

I guess that is true. But maple story is just a giant skinner box. I can guarantee you that they think they are enjoying it, but in actuality it is a terrible game.

 

So... it's... just like Warframe?  While it has its unique aspects (I wouldn't post on its forums if I didn't care about it), Warframe has a massive amount of grind, rewards and conditioning, making it one of the most skinnerboxtastic games I've ever seen.