Gated Progression And New Players

[NazFTW]

There's 2 issues I'd like to discuss in this topic, mostly from a new player's perspective.

1. Gated Warframe/Gun progression through Orokin Reactors/Catalysts - This is an ok move as long as you keep the orokins fairly accessible with time investment. I've been playing for a week and a half now and I have 4 catalysts (from alerts) and 0 reactors. Catalysts - ok, Reactors - not ok.

Suggestions: Remove the locked tree for STARTER warframe/guns ONLY. I feel like this is a must to keep the new player happy and not turn the other way around once they hit level 15 (which is pretty damn fast btw) because they can't progress their warframe almost at all. By the time you hit lvl 15 on your starter frame you are not even CLOSE to getting a new warframe and probably don't even know where to get reactors yet. It just feels pretty bad for your first warframe, which you were forced to pick out of 3 (small pool) to be gated at level 15. If you remove the locked features from the starter stuff, once the new player gets a new weapon/warframe he is already hooked on the game and will be more likely to buy an orokin reactor or catalyst with platinum.

If you feel like simply having the frame unlocked is not a good idea, as the player needs to learn about them, then give the player a 100% chance to get a reactor on the 7day login reward (only once ofc) or have to go through a special test (like the ones when you level up on the account) when he reaches warframe 15 and get a reactor/catalyst as reward.

2. Warframe/Gun Slots - I feel these are priced alright, not bad but you are kind of TOO limited without them. Especially when it comes to Warframes.

Suggestions: Let's tackle 2 issues at the same time: Currently, the level of your account gives no rewards other than being able to purchase/craft new weapons from the market. How about you add a warframe slot and 2 weapons slots when you reach level 3 or 4? It takes a pretty long time to get there and just giving 1 warframe slot for free will not hurt the sales too much. Could even make it exp locked + high credit cost, if you feel that it is necessary.

[Davante]

Your first point is spot on I believe. Restricting new gamers for their first weapon is an unforunate choice that is unlikely to do well. You need new gamers to be able to see more of the big picture. However, I believe you need to tell them what you're doing. So maybe when each of the starter weapons and warframes hit 15 you need to have a special little ceremony unlocking the rest of the trees and telling them how to unlock any new weapons and warframes they get later. Its important to not only show them they got something for free but to show them what it will take to do so later on their own.

The second point however... maybe its best to not give people the 50 points until they know how to use them properly. It seems the biggest complaint is that new gamers waste them on nonsense stuff before the realize the value of things.

[Tsoe]

There's 2 issues I'd like to discuss in this topic, mostly from a new player's perspective.

1. Gated Warframe/Gun progression through Orokin Reactors/Catalysts - This is an ok move as long as you keep the orokins fairly accessible with time investment. I've been playing for a week and a half now and I have 4 catalysts (from alerts) and 0 reactors. Catalysts - ok, Reactors - not ok.

Suggestions: Remove the locked tree for STARTER warframe/guns ONLY. I feel like this is a must to keep the new player happy and not turn the other way around once they hit level 15 (which is pretty damn fast btw) because they can't progress their warframe almost at all. By the time you hit lvl 15 on your starter frame you are not even CLOSE to getting a new warframe and probably don't even know where to get reactors yet. It just feels pretty bad for your first warframe, which you were forced to pick out of 3 (small pool) to be gated at level 15. If you remove the locked features from the starter stuff, once the new player gets a new weapon/warframe he is already hooked on the game and will be more likely to buy an orokin reactor or catalyst with platinum.

If you feel like simply having the frame unlocked is not a good idea, as the player needs to learn about them, then give the player a 100% chance to get a reactor on the 7day login reward (only once ofc) or have to go through a special test (like the ones when you level up on the account) when he reaches warframe 15 and get a reactor/catalyst as reward.

2. Warframe/Gun Slots - I feel these are priced alright, not bad but you are kind of TOO limited without them. Especially when it comes to Warframes.

Suggestions: Let's tackle 2 issues at the same time: Currently, the level of your account gives no rewards other than being able to purchase/craft new weapons from the market. How about you add a warframe slot and 2 weapons slots when you reach level 3 or 4? It takes a pretty long time to get there and just giving 1 warframe slot for free will not hurt the sales too much. Could even make it exp locked + high credit cost, if you feel that it is necessary.

1_

you can choose to buy one with the free patilium you have at begining (buy slot is a better move but at least yu have choice)

even free to not buy 1 if you got lucky with alerts

2_

They are allready workin on givin a purpose to the white tower

[Shion963]

Well you're given 50 plat right off the bat, I used mine to supercharge/pro my starter Warframe, and my Latron since it was so difficult to get any catalyst or reactors back then.

OR you could spend it on 4 weapon slots or two Warframe slots, or 1 reactor and 4 weapon slots.

Like Dark Souls, I find that Warframe gives us (free players) a lot of options, it's just that it's not readily apparent. Some new players might have used up their 50pt for revives, or another unneeded warframe slot (imho of course, I just got my second WF and I'm almost 100 hours in). What they needed was just some guidance, is all.

[NazFTW]

Yes, I believe that having a special mission or alert pop up just for you like the ones when you gain a mastery rank to teach you about Reactors and Catalysts would be the best route to go with. Rewarding you with 1 of each at the same time as well.

As for the second point, I wasn't sure if the 50 starting platinum is just for beta or it'll apply to release as well. If they plan on giving 50 plat to every new account then maybe it should be a reward at mastery rank 2 or 3? By that time you should know about reactors/catalysts and realise you have a limited amount of warframe/weapon slots.

[Adagio]

+1 to Davante

and the 1st issue from the OP

it's the lack of information, and i'm sure this has been adressed in the future tutorial remake

it's not really necessary to unlock the 1st Frame skill tree right away imo, but giving some information ingame that you can purchase the Reactors yourself by using the 50 plat is good

Edited February 26, 2013 by Adagio

[Cawkslapjones]

I swear, when I first saw your topic I thought your name was "NaziFTW"

As for on topic, the alerts are still being worked out, I would imagine that they will continue to tweak with the amount of feedback they are getting. I think some of the real problem is that since there's virtually no in-game communication, there are a lot of players who feel isolated, and they also cannot see some of the important alerts. I know if there was someone asking to go to the alert that has a reactor, unless it's a level 55 Grineer it would be no problem to carry them along. This could also give veterans more to do in game, as well as alleviate frustration of new players.

For the second point, I'm strongly in favor of people being able to have more frames. Weapon slots are ok, but an additional 2 could really help bring diversity to your arsenal. I don't think DE is taking into consideration that with access to more frames without having to sell your old one, players are more likely to stick around. I've already sold off 2 level 30 frames, and am strongly considering selling off a third one. I have to say, being forced to do this if you want to TRY a new frame is pretty harsh. There are going to be people who don't like that feeling, and it may discourage them. Yes, I know, everyone says spend 5 bucks on the game, but some people can't, and even more simply despise the feeling that they MUST spend to keep playing.

[Cyronydd]

I swear, when I first saw your topic I thought your name was "NaziFTW"

Actually I saw that that way too. Sorry Naz. Could be that NazFTW is *from* Naz, Switzerland though, or that he/she enjoys the rap artist, Nas. ;P

Anyhoo, good topic. I love this game, and would like to see it have that 'stickyness' that keeps people playing and builds a strong community. - while of course making the devs money.

[Mak_Gohae]

It was only a matter of time for people to start talking about the reactors when the catalyst drops became more frequent.

Now that they have enough for their guns....

As for the starter weapons, none of them really last that long, the sword is replaced by the first boss, the Braton is cheap and so are the guns to replace the lato. The only reason to keep any of the starter weapons is for mastery EXP or the Lato for the Bolto.

[krisp]

Actually I saw that that way too. Sorry Naz. Could be that NazFTW is *from* Naz, Switzerland though, or that he/she enjoys the rap artist, Nas. ;P

Actually, he's a huge devoted fan of Naz Cloudhury, a famous Bollywood dancer and artistic virtuoso. It's his lifelong dream to become an expert in the bhangra and be a member of the famous indian dance group Flex FX.

[NazFTW]

It was only a matter of time for people to start talking about the reactors when the catalyst drops became more frequent.

Now that they have enough for their guns....

As for the starter weapons, none of them really last that long, the sword is replaced by the first boss, the Braton is cheap and so are the guns to replace the lato. The only reason to keep any of the starter weapons is for mastery EXP or the Lato for the Bolto.

If it wasn't for the Braton Vandal I would still be using the Mk1 Braton, it's not a horrible gun. The point you're trying to make is very close to what I was saying: Unlocking the trees for free for the starter weapons is NOT a big deal but it would give the newbie a better experience to not be locked out of starting gear + would increase the chances he will keep playing and buy a catalyst to unlock his next weapon when he has already tasted the "power" of a fully unlocked gun.

Again, if it's such a huge issue, giving just ONE catalyst as a reward after any of my suggestions I have in the original post is still a good alternative. Basically either have the starter stuff unlocked for free at a certain point in the game OR get one catalyst and you pick what to unlock first.

As for the reactor, I do not think it is reasonable to be stuck with a level 15 warframe that you had to pick out of 3 only, when you don't even know anything about the game yet. It takes a pretty long time from that lvl 15 starter warframe until you get an entirely new warframe to play with.. that's a long time to be "stuck", doesn't feel good at all.

Edited February 26, 2013 by NazFTW

[Mak_Gohae]

If it wasn't for the Braton Vandal I would still be using the Mk1 Braton, it's not a horrible gun. The point you're trying to make is very close to what I was saying: Unlocking the trees for free for the starter weapons is NOT a big deal but it would give the newbie a better experience to not be locked out of starting gear + would increase the chances he will keep playing and buy a catalyst to unlock his next weapon when he has already tasted the "power" of a fully unlocked gun.

Again, if it's such a huge issue, giving just ONE catalyst as a reward after any of my suggestions I have in the original post is still a good alternative. Basically either have the starter stuff unlocked for free at a certain point in the game OR get one catalyst and you pick what to unlock first.

As for the reactor, I do not think it is reasonable to be stuck with a level 15 warframe that you had to pick out of 3 only, when you don't even know anything about the game yet. It takes a pretty long time from that lvl 15 starter warframe until you get an entirely new warframe to play with.. that's a long time to be "stuck", doesn't feel good at all.

Well, most folks after getting some cash quickly replace the starting weapons in the game so they never really get used that much that a catalyst for them is an issue.

When you first make an account do you get enough for getting both one reactor and a catalyst so can super charge one weapon and one frame. Those 50 plat should be use for that or for slots and nothing more.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[NazFTW]

Well, most folks after getting some cash quickly replace the starting weapons in the game so they never really get used that much that a catalyst for them is an issue.

When you first make an account do you get enough for getting both one reactor and a catalyst so can super charge one weapon and one frame. Those 50 plat should be use for that or for slots and nothing more.

Stop thinking from the perspective of a player that has already spent time playing the game and is well informed to make decisions such as spending his/hers platinum on stuff that matter. This is about the new player experience. After a couple of hours what do you find out: I am locked and can no longer progress with my warframe and guns. How can I fix that? I buy a reactor and catalyst from the market with the 50 plat they gave me. But what if I get a better weapon later? What if I won't enjoy this warframe as much to invest the plat in it? After all, I only had THREE to pick from and there's currently 10 in the game (will be more and more the closer we get to release probably). See, it's not as straight forward as you make it sound.

Not to mention there will be quite a lot of people that will spend their plat on something else even before finding out about the locked thing.

Edited February 27, 2013 by NazFTW

[Tyzh]

I actually like the idea of the starting guns, at least, starting supercharged. The MK-1 Braton and the Lato are basically each inferior versions of other weapons you can upgrade to quickly, but if you start with them supercharged it gives them a reason to exist. A supercharged MK-1 Braton would be better than an unsupercharged Braton and it would have prevented me as a new free player from feeling so locked out of game content once I hit 15 and couldn't level any of my gear anymore.

And it's not like the devs would be losing any income here, since the starting weapons are basically bad and nobody is supercharging them anyway. It'd be a risk free way for them to earn some good faith.

[Mak_Gohae]

Stop thinking from the perspective of a player that has already spent time playing the game and is well informed to make decisions such as spending his/hers platinum on stuff that matter. This is about the new player experience. After a couple of hours what do you find out: I am locked and can no longer progress with my warframe and guns. How can I fix that? I buy a reactor and catalyst from the market with the 50 plat they gave me. But what if I get a better weapon later? What if I won't enjoy this warframe as much to invest the plat in it? After all, I only had THREE to pick from and there's currently 10 in the game (will be more and more the closer we get to release probably). See, it's not as straight forward as you make it sound.

Not to mention there will be quite a lot of people that will spend their plat on something else even before finding out about the locked thing.

This has nothing to do with a player that spent any sort of time on anything.

When you level your weapon and the ability tree is shown you can clearly see that they can be upgraded and that they need a catalyst to open up all of the abilities which should take you to the market which should show the price for it and from there you can do that math. Pretty sure EVERYONE did this.

And a first time player isnt going to be able to get a new frame for a long time because of all the requirements in money and materials.

The Catalysts are the only one that comes anywhere near to the example you are saying but now they seem to be dropping in a regular fashion and if you come and visit the board you can get invites to any alert.

[Aedensin]

Well you're given 50 plat right off the bat, I used mine to supercharge/pro my starter Warframe, and my Latron since it was so difficult to get any catalyst or reactors back then.

OR you could spend it on 4 weapon slots or two Warframe slots, or 1 reactor and 4 weapon slots.

Like Dark Souls, I find that Warframe gives us (free players) a lot of options, it's just that it's not readily apparent. Some new players might have used up their 50pt for revives, or another unneeded warframe slot (imho of course, I just got my second WF and I'm almost 100 hours in). What they needed was just some guidance, is all.

What if the 50 free plat is a beta only promotion? What then?

I might be wrong on the promo thing but its not uncommon.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Aedensin

[NazFTW]

This has nothing to do with a player that spent any sort of time on anything.

When you level your weapon and the ability tree is shown you can clearly see that they can be upgraded and that they need a catalyst to open up all of the abilities which should take you to the market which should show the price for it and from there you can do that math. Pretty sure EVERYONE did this.

And a first time player isnt going to be able to get a new frame for a long time because of all the requirements in money and materials.

The Catalysts are the only one that comes anywhere near to the example you are saying but now they seem to be dropping in a regular fashion and if you come and visit the board you can get invites to any alert.

No, you can't clearly see you need to upgrade it AT ALL. Because you have to mouse over the top left faded out thing to find out. This locking and unlocking thing needs to be clearer, but that is probably going to be solved. I didn't find out until I got lvl 15+. And when I did find out, I had no idea there's any other way of getting them except the market with platinum. I did search the forums and whatnot and found out, but not everyone will be doing this.

I got my new warframe in a week (actually less but I played quite a lot). How long did it take me to be locked in for everything? First or second day of playing (where I wasn't even playing much, wasn't sure about the game yet). Now enjoy 5-6 days of grinding with lvl 15 everything.

That's the problem though, we got lucky last week with catalysts. What about next week? Or the week after that? Having to rely so heavily on RNG to get such an important part of the game is not acceptable, especially when you are new and just trying the game out. And Catalysts are actually ok to not have, compared to Reactors. If you don't have a Catalyst you can just save up some credits and get a new weapon, refresh the experience of gunplay. But what about the warframe? You are stuck with a lvl 15 warframe that you had to pick in the first 5 mins of the game, after completing the tutorial and you have to spend your precious 50 plat to get something "new" or farm for days with that locked stuff, get a new warframe and HOPEFULLY that one will be worth unlocking.

I want to hear your arguments though, why are you so against having the starter stuff unlocked once you complete a mission of some sort and learn about the orokin stuff? Do you think it will decrease sales, will the company lose tons and tons of money? You keep talking as if everyone will make the best choice after the tutorial amd then the best choices ingame with the 50 plat. You are very limited to what you can play when you start off, spending your 50 plat on that is probably not going to happen (unless you really enjoy your starter warframe), which leads to people grinding for days and days with lvl 15 locked warframe and guns. Not fun, sorry. No matter how you spin it, unless they inform the player really well ingame about this stuff + give you the opportunity to pick from all warframes in the tutorial (with maybe a video presentation of all of them), then what we currently have is not viable.

Edited February 27, 2013 by NazFTW

[Shion963]

What if the 50 free plat is a beta only promotion? What then?

I might be wrong on the promo thing but its not uncommon.

That'd be odd, wouldn't it? Enter release for the masses, and no starting plat at all. They won't even have the ability to supercharge their starters or even buy any expansion slots at all from the start. And then they'd complain about how pay2win the game is and ragequit.

I'm not saying that DE WOULDN'T do that, because it is very well in their capacity to. But I have enough faith in them that they'll do the right thing.

[Ryme]

Given that the game is based primarily on active movement and weapon usage, I feel the Orokin Catalyst and Reactors aren't a necessity to experience high level "endgame". Were this game based on more non-involved combat mechanics like WoW, EQ, or SWToR, capping our skill trees would be the equivalent of caping our ability to progress and act. As it is in this game, being locked out of our skill trees is akin to not having all your perks unlocked in a game like CoD.

Is it more difficult? Yes.

Do you have less options with how you play? Yes.

Are you too weak to fight against high level opponents? No

Without access to Catalyst and Reactors, you can still use the same weapons as everyone else. And use the same level of mods as everyone else. The only restriction will be that you can't use as many, and your skills won't be as strong. This matters even less given that the game is a Coop experience, so being slightly weaker than someone else is a reasonable tradeoff for you not having paid for the game, while they have.

That said, I feel limiting inventory slots is far more restrictive. Itemization is a large part of the content in this game. Where as other games have new content in the form of story progression, enemies, and enviroments, this game sees content mostly in the form of new warframes and weapons. There is no option to unlock additional slots, other than purchasing them with RL money. If we could use Reactor and Catalysts to unlock inventory slots as well, that would at least be something.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ryme

[Strat]

Starting plat should be increased to 80. This will allow players to buy 4 catalysts/reactors. 1 for their starter warframe, then 3 for their 3 weapons. Also, this will give players a choice to either supercharge one of their weapons, or buy another slot. Opens up more options for players, and also lets players get a real 'feel' for end-game as they can use all their slots on all of their starter gear.

Thoughts?

[Notso]

After reading all the suggestions here, I prefer the OP's idea of a special "forced" mission which rewards players with 1 free reactor and 1 free catalyst. It's a more user friendly way than just saying in a popup once you start the game "Oh and btw, you should probably almost definitely use that platinum to buy reactors/catalysts", which most new players will probably just close without reading.

[Mak_Gohae]

No, you can't clearly see you need to upgrade it AT ALL. Because you have to mouse over the top left faded out thing to find out. This locking and unlocking thing needs to be clearer, but that is probably going to be solved. I didn't find out until I got lvl 15+. And when I did find out, I had no idea there's any other way of getting them except the market with platinum. I did search the forums and whatnot and found out, but not everyone will be doing this.

Wait..... so the 15 times you went into your ability tree you never once had any sort of inkling to press that upgrade button to see what would happen?

I got my new warframe in a week (actually less but I played quite a lot). How long did it take me to be locked in for everything? First or second day of playing (where I wasn't even playing much, wasn't sure about the game yet). Now enjoy 5-6 days of grinding with lvl 15 everything.

Wait.... so the system that is less intuitive you easily get done within a week but the one with a clear button there is difficult? This is rather strange if do say so.

That's the problem though, we got lucky last week with catalysts. What about next week? Or the week after that? Having to rely so heavily on RNG to get such an important part of the game is not acceptable, especially when you are new and just trying the game out. And Catalysts are actually ok to not have, compared to Reactors. If you don't have a Catalyst you can just save up some credits and get a new weapon, refresh the experience of gunplay. But what about the warframe? You are stuck with a lvl 15 warframe that you had to pick in the first 5 mins of the game, after completing the tutorial and you have to spend your precious 50 plat to get something "new" or farm for days with that locked stuff, get a new warframe and HOPEFULLY that one will be worth unlocking.

The starter plat should be only spent on Orokin or slots. I dont know what other "precious" things you are keeping it for.

I want to hear your arguments though, why are you so against having the starter stuff unlocked once you complete a mission of some sort and learn about the orokin stuff? Do you think it will decrease sales, will the company lose tons and tons of money? You keep talking as if everyone will make the best choice after the tutorial amd then the best choices ingame with the 50 plat. You are very limited to what you can play when you start off, spending your 50 plat on that is probably not going to happen (unless you really enjoy your starter warframe), which leads to people grinding for days and days with lvl 15 locked warframe and guns. Not fun, sorry. No matter how you spin it, unless they inform the player really well ingame about this stuff + give you the opportunity to pick from all warframes in the tutorial (with maybe a video presentation of all of them), then what we currently have is not viable.

The starter weapons get replaced quickly, so if you let them start fully charged it will then lead to people complaining that the fully open weapons are a waste because there are better weapons that you can quickly acquire so those free catalyst should not be locked to those weapons, people should be able to choose which 3 weapons they can drop them in.

You see..... i think several steps aheads. So i am arguing something that will come up and not really what is happening now.

[Aedensin]

Wait..... so the 15 times you went into your ability tree you never once had any sort of inkling to press that upgrade button to see what would happen?

Wait.... so the system that is less intuitive you easily get done within a week but the one with a clear button there is difficult? This is rather strange if do say so.

The starter plat should be only spent on Orokin or slots. I dont know what other "precious" things you are keeping it for.

The starter weapons get replaced quickly, so if you let them start fully charged it will then lead to people complaining that the fully open weapons are a waste because there are better weapons that you can quickly acquire so those free catalyst should not be locked to those weapons, people should be able to choose which 3 weapons they can drop them in.

You see..... i think several steps aheads. So i am arguing something that will come up and not really what is happening now.

Thats you, then there's every one else. You should not assume every one will know what to do and when to do it, DE has already done enough of that with the orokins and wall running. (I love you DE but seriously, drop a few hints once in a while)

The average new comer will come in, get blinded by the white tower tutorial and then choose between 3 frame. Two of which they have no idea how they play aside from skill descriptions.

Then they will see 50 sitting there next to the credits and gradually realize its free cash shop money, they may take a quick look around the market.. or they might dive right in and die a thousand times spending every last plat on the buy revives button.

As for myself, I spent a bit on revives and then I noticed the valentines pallette and bought that. Then I noticed the Orokin system and realized I would be gimped pretty badly if I continued playing. Thats when I switched to my alt account with Volt, now Volt is my main and I just use this account for daily login lotto and posting on the forums.

Though I do agree with your statement on choosing which weapons to charge.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Aedensin

[Mak_Gohae]

Thats you, then there's every one else. You should not assume every one will know what to do and when to do it, thats when stupid stuff happens.

The average new comer will come in, get blinded by the white tower tutorial and then choose between 3 frame. Two of which they have no idea how they play aside from skill descriptions.

Then they will see 50 sitting there next to the credits and gradually realize its free cash shop money, they may take a quick look around the market.. or they might dive right in and die a thousand times spending every last plat on the buy revives button.

As for myself, I spent a bit on revives and then I noticed the valentines pallette and bought that. Then I noticed the Orokin system and realized I would be gimped pretty badly if I continued playing. Thats when I switched to my alt account with Volt, now Volt is my main and I just use this account for daily login lotto and posting on the forums.

Pretty sure most people dont miss the upgrade button the first time they level their frames which comes right after their first mission.

[krisp]

Given that the game is based primarily on active movement and weapon usage, I feel the Orokin Catalyst and Reactors aren't a necessity to experience high level "endgame". Were this game based on more non-involved combat mechanics like WoW, EQ, or SWToR, capping our skill trees would be the equivalent of caping our ability to progress and act. As it is in this game, being locked out of our skill trees is akin to not having all your perks unlocked in a game like CoD.

Have you forgotten that there's an entire ultimate skill (which is crucial in finishing at least one certain mission) that's locked behind a reactor?

But it doesn't matter how active the movement is, straight upgrades shouldn't be hidden behind obnoxious gates.

Edited February 27, 2013 by krisp