Gated Progression And New Players

[Ryme]

Have you forgotten that there's an entire ultimate skill (which is crucial in finishing at least one certain mission) that's locked behind a reactor?

But it doesn't matter how active the movement is, straight upgrades shouldn't be hidden behind obnoxious gates.

As a locked frame user, 4th skill has never been an option or requirement for any mission. Is it neat and shiney? Yes. But it is by no means crucial or a necessity. I have solo'd all non-boss content with only locked frames. That is not to say I succeed on my first try every time, but I have never been absolutely unable to progress.

In coop games, I abhore 4th skill spammers as I feel they are selfish kill hoarders that would rather rush ahead and clear a room with their crutch WMD, rather than give other people the oppertunity to build exp for gear and enjoy combat.

At least with Catalyst and Reactors, the "keys" for those gates are available within the game. It may be rare, but it still exists. If you lack the patience or time acquire them when they appear, then you still have the option of paying for the convenience of acquiring said items whenever you want.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ryme

[NazFTW]

@Ryme: I wouldn't call having non-supercharged warframe and weapons being "slightly" weaker. In fact, have you even looked at the stats the mods give? Having the option of equipping 12 of those instead of 5 is a BIG difference. Not to mention you don't even have access to your ultimate skill which is a huge deal for most warframes.

Being weaker than people that have paid for the game is reasonable only if their strength is available to you with decent time investment. In general, people hate games that sell power, that's why most successful f2p games sell time and not power. Sure, in time you can get a reactor as well but right now it's based purely on RNG and when it does happen you might even miss it because the alert could start in the middle of the night or when you're away. No matter how much you play, you could still miss out on a reactor alert and it will suck big time, because of how rare they are.

If anything, asking for RL money for slots IS reasonable, because that's a convenience. Could we use 1 extra warframe slot and 2 extra weapon slots when we rank up in mastery? Sure, but if this game keeps adding on its content and stuff to do at endgame, having an extra slot is just convenience. Most f2p MMOs will have a limit of characters you can create without spending money. This game just doesn't have the same amount of content to justify the limits yet, but it might get there. We're still in beta, time will tell. If not much changes, then I agree with you.

[Aedensin]

Pretty sure most people dont miss the upgrade button the first time they level their frames which comes right after their first mission.

Its surprisingly easy to do, especially if you don't look at the market before diving into the game. Also there will be people that choose say.. Loki and die over and over without leveling, then spend all of their plat on revives. Which is exactly what a buddy of mine would have done had I not warned him.

It's not the smartest thing to do but there are people that will do it. The best thing to do is try to prevent it rather than say "tough luck, should've used your platinum more wisely" which happened a good bit during the OB event and I imagine it will happen on a larger scale if the system isn't changed in some way before true Open Beta.

I had to tell my friends how to spend their platinum so they wouldn't make my mistake and find themselves capped, I really shouldn't be required to do that.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Aedensin

[Ryme]

@Ryme: I wouldn't call having non-supercharged warframe and weapons being "slightly" weaker. In fact, have you even looked at the stats the mods give? Having the option of equipping 12 of those instead of 5 is a BIG difference. Not to mention you don't even have access to your ultimate skill which is a huge deal for most warframes.

Being weaker than people that have paid for the game is reasonable only if their strength is available to you with decent time investment. In general, people hate games that sell power, that's why most successful f2p games sell time and not power. Sure, in time you can get a reactor as well but right now it's based purely on RNG and when it does happen you might even miss it because the alert could start in the middle of the night or when you're away. No matter how much you play, you could still miss out on a reactor alert and it will suck big time, because of how rare they are.

If anything, asking for RL money for slots IS reasonable, because that's a convenience. Could we use 1 extra warframe slot and 2 extra weapon slots when we rank up in mastery? Sure, but if this game keeps adding on its content and stuff to do at endgame, having an extra slot is just convenience. Most f2p MMOs will have a limit of characters you can create without spending money. This game just doesn't have the same amount of content to justify the limits yet, but it might get there. We're still in beta, time will tell. If not much changes, then I agree with you.

Currently, Catalyst and Reactors are aviable with enough decent time investment. That said, I still feel that while an unlocked frame is more powerful than a locked frame, the content is not at a level in which an unlocked frame is necessary to progress through the content at this time.

Just to be clear, i have the whole galaxy map unlocked and all my weapons and frames are still locked. That said, I have also obtained 1 Reactor and 3 Catalyst in the month or so I've played this game. These all came from ? Alert missions that appeared over a weekend, as I can't invest much time into this game during weekdays.

The current Alert system does need to be overhauled, and the Devs have stated that they feel the same. However, making Catalyst and Reactors available on demand with ingame funds would kill any motivation to purchase them with money.

I agree that having extra slots is a convenience. If I absolutely had to try a new weapon or frame, I could delete one I already had to make room. I only feel that it is a harsher limiter than the Catalyst and Reactors, since you can still utiliize all the frames and weapons without unlocking them, albeit not to their full potential; they are still very much viable. Deleting a frame or weapon for room means losing the time and progress you invested into leveling it. I feel that sense of having something vested in a game is an important part of retaining players.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Ryme

[Mak_Gohae]

Its surprisingly easy to do, especially if you don't look at the market before diving into the game.

Clicking on the upgrade button tells you, you need a reactor/catalyst.

You dont need to go to the market first to know about the items.

It's not the smartest thing to do but there are people that will do it. The best thing to do is try to prevent it rather than say "tough luck, should've used your platinum more wisely" which happened a good bit during the OB event and I imagine it will happen on a larger scale if the system isn't changed in some way before true Open Beta.

I had to tell my friends how to spend their platinum so they wouldn't make my mistake and find themselves capped, I really shouldn't be required to do that.

I spend my plat on supercharging the first weapons because i didnt know if the money in the game was easy/difficult it was to get. It turns out it's pretty easy so i ended up getting new weapons rather quick and "wasting" the catalyst on weapons that were never used and were eventually sold. And i never saw a catalyst again till i was playing with my second frame. I wasnt complaining about how my weapons were all stuck at 15 i just did the best that i could with what i had.

It's a game... lets stop putting so much value to game choices.

[NazFTW]

Wait..... so the 15 times you went into your ability tree you never once had any sort of inkling to press that upgrade button to see what would happen?

No, because that button is really greyed out, and easy to be missed. Also, I stumbled upon the talent tree after a couple of levels, I didn't go back to it 15 times. And once I realised my level didn't stop at 15, I moused over the button, searched the forums to see how I get a reactor. Cool, I can get them from missions or buy them from the market. Well, I'll decide later. 2 weeks later my starter frame is still locked.

Wait.... so the system that is less intuitive you easily get done within a week but the one with a clear button there is difficult? This is rather strange if do say so.

I looked up how you get new warframes (game doesn't really tell you that either). Playing the missions themselves and pick up drops is not difficult. My point was that the game doesn't do a very well job to inform you about these things: your warframe is locked, you need a reactor for it, the reactor is obtainable through market or RANDOMLY from alerts that spawn etc. However, getting a new warframe is one of the most common things that you'll think about. The upgrading thing most probably will reveal itself way later when you might have already spent platinum on revives or colors like someone mentioned.

The starter plat should be only spent on Orokin or slots. I dont know what other "precious" things you are keeping it for.

Aside from the fact that some people care about customization just as much as they care about unlocking warframes or gun trees, you totally missed my point. I cannot do an informed decision and spend what might be my only chance to an Orokin reactor for weeks if I had to pick from 3 warframes without knowing almost anything about the game. Same goes for weapons.

The starter weapons get replaced quickly, so if you let them start fully charged it will then lead to people complaining that the fully open weapons are a waste because there are better weapons that you can quickly acquire so those free catalyst should not be locked to those weapons, people should be able to choose which 3 weapons they can drop them in.

You don't need to give people catalysts to unlock the weapons themselves, just give them unlocked already and explain to them what a catalyst is and does. How can people complain about a catalyst they never had?

With your argument, it's even WORSE for the newbie. He realises his weapon is locked, he spends 20 plat on a catalyst, unlocks the starter weapon then he finds better guns (since you claim they're worse than the other ones). What does he do then? Come on the forums and complains, why is his subpar starter weapon locked in the first place and had to spend his plat?

You see..... i think several steps aheads. So i am arguing something that will come up and not really what is happening now.

This is not a &!$$ing contest, I am sharing what I have experienced and felt when I started the game and what seems to me is confirmed by quite a lot of people in this thread. I have made really good choices with spending my plat because I am the kind of player that will research and inform himself before spending currency that is not easily obtainable, but that is DEFINITELY not true for everyone.

[NazFTW]

Currently, Catalyst and Reactors are aviable with enough decent time investment. That said, I still feel that while an unlocked frame is more powerful than a locked frame, the content is not at a level in which an unlocked frame is necessary to progress through the content at this time.

If it wasn't for the special alert they just opened tonight, I would still not have had a reactor from "?" alerts and I've been playing for 2 weeks. It's not that I missed a reactor alert, it just wasn't there, at all. And when you play quite a bit (as I have), you expect to progress and make your character more powerful. Progress for me and one of my top priorities was to see the ultimate ability for my warframe, that is one of the coolest and most exciting things to finally get and I couldn't.

The current Alert system does need to be overhauled, and the Devs have stated that they feel the same. However, making Catalyst and Reactors available on demand with ingame funds would kill any motivation to purchase them with money.

I never asked for such a thing. One of the 2 things have to happen though, in my opinion:

A) Have the starter warframe unlocked and you still have to purchase all your future reactors with money or get one from an alert.

B) Make the reactors less random to get ingame and more accessible in a predictable way. That doesn't mean to sell them for credits, it means make me farm for 1 week non-stop but at least allow me to get a reactor for that time investment, rather than me crossing my fingers and hoping that this will be THE alert to give me what I desperately need.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, just felt like I should reply separately.

Edited February 27, 2013 by NazFTW

[Mak_Gohae]

No, because that button is really greyed out, and easy to be missed.

But it says upgrade there....that never gave you any sort of interest?

Also, I stumbled upon the talent tree after a couple of levels, I didn't go back to it 15 times. And once I realised my level didn't stop at 15, I moused over the button, searched the forums to see how I get a reactor. Cool, I can get them from missions or buy them from the market. Well, I'll decide later. 2 weeks later my starter frame is still locked.

There is stuff flashing all over the place every time you level and you stumbled on to the tree? And you didnt go back to it either? Im going to have to call this a very unique case.

I mean, sure, they dont provide detailed info on stuff but it's not like there is some severe lack of signs there to help.

How can you not hit the flashing buttons?

I find that stuff extremely annoying as they continue to flash for weapons that are not super charged but you sort of not payed attention to them at all? wow.

I looked up how you get new warframes (game doesn't really tell you that either). Playing the missions themselves and pick up drops is not difficult. My point was that the game doesn't do a very well job to inform you about these things: your warframe is locked, you need a reactor for it, the reactor is obtainable through market or RANDOMLY from alerts that spawn etc. However, getting a new warframe is one of the most common things that you'll think about. The upgrading thing most probably will reveal itself way later when you might have already spent platinum on revives or colors like someone mentioned.

I dunno... of you go to search for info on frames the reactor should be something that comes up quick.

Aside from the fact that some people care about customization just as much as they care about unlocking warframes or gun trees, you totally missed my point. I cannot do an informed decision and spend what might be my only chance to an Orokin reactor for weeks if I had to pick from 3 warframes without knowing almost anything about the game. Same goes for weapons.

Isnt upgrading stuff customization too?

You don't need to give people catalysts to unlock the weapons themselves, just give them unlocked already and explain to them what a catalyst is and does. How can people complain about a catalyst they never had?

People are people. Trust me.... they will complain about the starting weapons being useless to be supercharged and they will ask for the catalyst to drop on a weapon of their choice.

With your argument, it's even WORSE for the newbie. He realises his weapon is locked, he spends 20 plat on a catalyst, unlocks the starter weapon then he finds better guns (since you claim they're worse than the other ones). What does he do then? Come on the forums and complains, why is his subpar starter weapon locked in the first place and had to spend his plat?

This is EXACTLY what happened to me and you know what i did?

I continued playing. That's it.

That was free money that could've been spent better but it's not going to destroy my gaming experience because i didnt make the best choice.

This is not a &!$$ing contest, I am sharing what I have experienced and felt when I started the game and what seems to me is confirmed by quite a lot of people in this thread. I have made really good choices with spending my plat because I am the kind of player that will research and inform himself before spending currency that is not easily obtainable, but that is DEFINITELY not true for everyone.

And i am also sharing my experience, i messed up but i didnt make it into a big deal.

Just play the game and stop worrying about mix/maxing stuff.

[xenapan]

Well you're given 50 plat right off the bat, I used mine to supercharge/pro my starter Warframe, and my Latron since it was so difficult to get any catalyst or reactors back then.

OR you could spend it on 4 weapon slots or two Warframe slots, or 1 reactor and 4 weapon slots.

Like Dark Souls, I find that Warframe gives us (free players) a lot of options, it's just that it's not readily apparent. Some new players might have used up their 50pt for revives, or another unneeded warframe slot (imho of course, I just got my second WF and I'm almost 100 hours in). What they needed was just some guidance, is all.

I totally agree about the guidance thing. They should really add it to the ranking up thing. Give you the platinum there and explain some things you might probably want to use it on (SLOTS) I chose reactor/catalyst and heavily regret that decision

[NazFTW]

But it says upgrade there....that never gave you any sort of interest?

There is stuff flashing all over the place every time you level and you stumbled on to the tree? And you didnt go back to it either? Im going to have to call this a very unique case.

I mean, sure, they dont provide detailed info on stuff but it's not like there is some severe lack of signs there to help.

How can you not hit the flashing buttons?

I find that stuff extremely annoying as they continue to flash for weapons that are not super charged but you sort of not payed attention to them at all? wow.

I dunno... of you go to search for info on frames the reactor should be something that comes up quick.

I did not go back to the tree immediately because I just chain started missions for a while, to check out the gameplay and see if.. you know, I like it. Most important thing for me is if I feel like the controls are smooth and the gameplay feels good. Talent trees? They're not uncommon, I won't spend more than 1 minute to see: "adds 50 shields". Woop-dee-doo, big deal. Boring passive boosts. I noticed the flashing button of the spending points but I chose to not go there yet as I was still trying out the gameplay. If I cannot handle the first 3-4 missions (which is like 30 mins of gametime) without going into my talent tree every level up, then something is probably wrong with the game

Isnt upgrading stuff customization too?

I was talking about cosmetics, and how people IN THIS VERY TOPIC have stated they bought stuff like color palletes and revives. Do you really think that's a good thing to have? "Noob traps" as they are called for the 50 platinum that is pretty damn important?

People are people. Trust me.... they will complain about the starting weapons being useless to be supercharged and they will ask for the catalyst to drop on a weapon of their choice.

No, I do not trust you. Why? Because it's exactly the opposite, being locked out is WORSE than not being locked out, simple as that. You know what people think like? "Hey, they gave me this stuff for free, but I gotta work for the next class/weapon myself. Cool, at least I have SOMETHING to play with fully unlocked"

This is EXACTLY what happened to me and you know what i did?

I continued playing. That's it.

That was free money that could've been spent better but it's not going to destroy my gaming experience because i didnt make the best choice.

Yeah, you fell in a noob trap because the game is not giving you enough information and if you do not go out of your way to search for this stuff, you will end up making bad decisions. Does it destroy your gameplay experience? Maybe not. Is it a big deal for a free 2 play game? I'd say yes, yes it is. For me, having decisions that are important and impact your gameplay be available to you so early in the game and without proper info is just bad. I've had experience with lack of info, f2p games and the whole ordeal. It's just not good for the game. I still do not understand why you fight an improvement to the game.

Does not lose money for the devs, helps the new player, gives him a taste of power even and promotes sales for platinum. What is there not to like?

And i am also sharing my experience, i messed up but i didnt make it into a big deal.

Just play the game and stop worrying about mix/maxing stuff.

I am not complaining or crying as you seem to read my posts. I am trying to HELP improve the game from what I've experienced and the 2 other friends I play with. This is not my first shooter, ARPG, f2p game or beta. I love the game so far and I keep playing, but that doesn't mean it does not need improvement. This is a beta and devs want feedback, I posted some and I get quite a lot of people agreeing with me. We will see, but I bet you that Update 7 will bring changes to the Orokins.

[krisp]

Currently, Catalyst and Reactors are aviable with enough decent time investment. That said, I still feel that while an unlocked frame is more powerful than a locked frame, the content is not at a level in which an unlocked frame is necessary to progress through the content at this time.

It may not be necessary, but the difference between a supercharged and a non-supercharged warframe is ridiculous. No, it's not SLIGHT. It's RIDICULOUS. I'm talking an extra ability, multiple upgrades to ones you already have, and about double your health and shields. That is not, in any way, shape or form, something you should restrict behind limiting walls that do not depend on time played, but on luck.

As outlined in this very well-written thread, reactors are a limiter, not an expander, and real money transactions should not simply unlock gameplay.

In other words, maybe you like being half as powerful as you should be but I don't.

And btw, you still get exp when people use those "crutch WMDs",

[Cyronydd]

Actually, he's a huge devoted fan of Naz Cloudhury, a famous Bollywood dancer and artistic virtuoso. It's his lifelong dream to become an expert in the bhangra and be a member of the famous indian dance group Flex FX.

XDDD