Damage 2.0: Not An Upgrade To Game Mechanics

[Kranvirthos]

Firstly, the sharp segregation between levels is really getting in the way of playing the game. Instead of seeing level ranges like 20-24, we should be seeing level ranges such as 10-45, 12-50, and 15-60. The content ladder has become SHARPLY mountainous, indistinguishable from any other MMO except it contains shooting (which matters less and less) and space ninjas (which is cool for the first fifteen minutes)

I remember they made a hotfix, which stopped obscenely high-level enemies from spawning in Defense missions - and this was a few days before damage 2.0. Finally, with mid-level warframes and weapons, Mercury defense was soloable up to about 25 minutes if you knew what you were doing - AND THAT WAS PERFECT.

Skill should always trump gear and level, and enemies need to stop being bulletsponges. I emptied an entire clip of Gorgon into an Ancient today, and depleted about a third of its HP. An unmodded Gorgon should be doing twice that damage to a top-level ancient. The other half of this: Player guns need to stop scaling to do double, triple, and quadruple their normal (unmodified) damage output. Serration needs to give about 5% increased damage per upgrade, not 15%.

I thought damage 2.0 was supposed to FIX these problems, and instead we got another episode of "Devs with Crayons". What happened to the devs that built Unreal 1? Hire them back, and have them fix this mess!

Another rather irritating issue with damage 2.0: Piercing Hit seems to be applying in very strange (and in some cases, completely useless) ways. I'm going to reference the Gorgon again:

18.8 Impact

3.8 Puncture

2.5 Slash

25.1 Total

Now the RNG has been a troll to me, and I've accumulated absolutely no rifle elemental damage mods, but I have plenty of pistol and melee ones. Elemental damage seems to be computed off of the total of those three damage values.

So when I put Piercing Hit on the Gorgon (+25% Puncture damage), it takes 1.25(3.8) = 4.7. An 8 point mod just raised the total damage from 25.1 to 26.0. Instead of Piercing Hit being calculated off of only the Puncture damage, let's instead compute it off of the total damage, and add that value to the Puncture value. So we'd instead get 0.25(25.1) + 3.8 = 10.075, which rounds down to 10. So our new Gorgon stats with that mod in place would be:

18.8 Impact

10.0 Puncture

2.5 Slash

31.3 Total

That way, Piercing Hit can actually be used to buff low Puncture ratings to effective levels, while not making weapons with high Puncture ratings + puncture modifiers ludicrously OP.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Kranvirthos

[NoPr0n]

I think it's just that impact had a low efficiency on ancients infested.

Try another weapon with more slash damage.

Damage 2.0 force you to play with ennemy weakness and it's a good thing for variety.

Edited November 21, 2013 by NoPr0n

[__Kanade__]

It's helped for my Supra, and especially the Synaspe, it's incredible.

 

Supra mostly, I have the same build, but it was awful, now it's doing the kind of dps I was hoping for. WIth the Synaspe since I don't have every single rare mod that other players are using for it, I was able to rethink my build and now it's doing some incredible damage, well worth the amount of resources and rank now.

 

And I now have a reason to use the seperate loadout slots, now I can make a Supra and Synaspe build tailored for each faction instead of the typical rainbow build.

Edited November 21, 2013 by __Kanade__

[LeucienWeaver]

Piercing Hit is supplicated by two other mods: Rupture(Impact), and Razor Shot(Slash). The way they work is you're only supposed to use the one that is most appropriate for that damage type. High impact weapon, like Gorgon? Take Rupture. Puncture? Piercing hit. It's like that for all of the types of damage. 

 

Also, it's worth noting that damage plays out further than most people are realizing, in that Puncture, Slash, and Impact all have their own status effects, which means pure elemental damage weapons(Acrid, Torid, Synapse, Ignis) not only gain no benefit from Puncture/Slash/Impact modifiers, but lose out on their natural status effects; Complete armor ignore for that shot(Puncture), Stagger(Impact, note this is not the same as Blast's effect, which knocks the target down), and Slash(Leaves a bleed dot based on PHYSICAL damage done.))

 

Instead, they gain a higher multiplier for that element's effect, especially when combined with that weapon's element mod. Leads to some pretty decent front-loaded damage when you've got Toxic element on Acrid(But then again the DoT no longer benefits from damage mods)

[Hoth]

I thought damage 2.0 was supposed to FIX these problems, and instead we got another episode of "Devs with Crayons". 

 I lol'd

[Wahooo]

Damage 2.0 is all about getting the right tool for the job.  You just picked up a screw driver to hammer nails.

[A1CZERO]

I completely agree that weapons scale way too high above base damage with mods.

 

I thought damage type increase mods were already based off of total damage unless the weapon doesn't have the type you're trying to increase.

 

Also sadly the rainbow in rainbow builds was not removed.(as advertised) The colors of the rainbow simply changed.

[LeucienWeaver]

I completely agree that weapons scale way too high above base damage with mods.

 

I thought damage type increase mods were already based off of total damage unless the weapon doesn't have the type you're trying to increase.

 

Also sadly the rainbow in rainbow builds was not removed.(as advertised) The colors of the rainbow simply changed.

 

 

Not quite, on the rainbow build. I foresee capitalizing more on other mods(Once status, slash/puncture/impact, and toxin circulate enough) so that you've got builds for general mission scenarios, and builds to capitalize on certain aspects of a mission.

 

For instance, Viral is really terrible against small mobs and shielded mobs, to where its effect is effectively neglible, but will be mandatory once we see bosses with more hp/multi-player needed mechanics. Conversely, Magnetic is useless against bosses, but totally wrecks small mechanicals and corpus.

 

So, in the end, we'd see a three man cell boss running Blast on their strongest weapons, Viral, Corrosive, and Radioactive on their secondaries, and chew through bosses like nobody's business.

 

 

 

Also, on your second topic, you're right. If a weapon does not have Puncture, it won't gain anything from Puncture buffing mods. However, almost* all weaponry has a tiny bit in the other points of the triangle, so that they're not completely pointless(But still incredibly undervalued). The exceptions are pure elemental damage weapons; Your Torid, Acrid, Synapse, Ignis... These do not have any points towards the slash/puncture/impact triangle, and as such, have no benefit from those mods. These are the primary weapons where we'll still see Rainbow builds, because of the increased internal chance for status procs.

[A1CZERO]

Not quite, on the rainbow build. I foresee capitalizing more on other mods(Once status, slash/puncture/impact, and toxin circulate enough) so that you've got builds for general mission scenarios, and builds to capitalize on certain aspects of a mission.

 

For instance, Viral is really terrible against small mobs and shielded mobs, to where its effect is effectively neglible, but will be mandatory once we see bosses with more hp/multi-player needed mechanics. Conversely, Magnetic is useless against bosses, but totally wrecks small mechanicals and corpus.

 

So, in the end, we'd see a three man cell boss running Blast on their strongest weapons, Viral, Corrosive, and Radioactive on their secondaries, and chew through bosses like nobody's business.

 

 

 

Also, on your second topic, you're right. If a weapon does not have Puncture, it won't gain anything from Puncture buffing mods. However, almost* all weaponry has a tiny bit in the other points of the triangle, so that they're not completely pointless(But still incredibly undervalued). The exceptions are pure elemental damage weapons; Your Torid, Acrid, Synapse, Ignis... These do not have any points towards the slash/puncture/impact triangle, and as such, have no benefit from those mods. These are the primary weapons where we'll still see Rainbow builds, because of the increased internal chance for status procs.

 

Actually a rainbow build is just as effective as it used to be reguardless of the specifics of the effectiveness of individual elements. All while being less of a choice on some weapons more than others just like before.

The changes laid out the ground work for something great but as is nothing has really changed.

[fatpig84]

Gorgon = impact damage

Infested will giggle at those.

 

Get slashing damage which points you to Soma.

Or gasp even the Mk1 Braton has MORE slashing damage than a Gorgon.

(Gorgon 2.5 slashing damage, mk1 braton 10.7)

 

 

Grineer rustling your jimmes, get Latron Prime, serious it does insane damage against Grineer now.

 

 

Now it is no longer 1 size fits all.

So there is no 1 favourite weapon to rule them all.

Edited November 22, 2013 by fatpig84

[TheThreadWeaver]

The way I understood Damage 2.0 is that it was never meant to be an upgrade. It's an entirely new system, from the ground up.

 

I refer you to this topic, which does a damn fine job of explaining Damage 2.0:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134176-explainedsolved-damage-20-builds-with-cheatsheets/

[Vercinaigh]

Damage 2.0 is all about getting the right tool for the job.  You just picked up a screw driver to hammer nails.

I love this analogy, but it's correct. But you can still cheat it with the right mods.

[-Xeno-Fire-]

I love this analogy, but it's correct. But you can still cheat it with the right mods.

Furthering said analogy, yes, if you metal-work the hammer head into a big flat-head screw-driver, theoretically, it would work as a screw-driver, but why not just use your screw-driver in the first place?  I think, in that way the system works all right, because if you put the same mods on the "correct" weapon, you would have astronomically better results.

Edited November 22, 2013 by XenoFire

[nekrojiji]

I completely agree that weapons scale way too high above base damage with mods.

I thought damage type increase mods were already based off of total damage unless the weapon doesn't have the type you're trying to increase.

Also sadly the rainbow in rainbow builds was not removed.(as advertised) The colors of the rainbow simply changed.

Rainbow build doesn't work anymore..... you don't do the full damage.

Try playing in controlled conditions.

Take a weapon that has high damage and low fire rate.

Shoot only one shot at a time and see what rainbow build does.

You are better off with utility or crit, even if the base is 5%, than nothing as you would get if you use a third element.

Edited November 22, 2013 by nekrojiji

[-Xeno-Fire-]

Rainbow build doesn't work anymore..... you don't do the full damage. 

Try playing in controlled conditions. 

 

Take a weapon that has high damage and low fire rate.

 

Shoot only one shot at a time and see what rainbow build does.

Vectis rainbow-builds still work, and actually, without any element mods they still wreck most enemies.

[nekrojiji]

Vectis rainbow-builds still work, and actually, without any element mods they still wreck most enemies.

what do you mean by reainbow build?!  4 elements or 2 elements + puncture, slash and impact?!

 

Because the 3rd element you put in is useless almost(deals no damage or messes up your damage) 

 

if you call impact, puncture and slash elemental damage that's your problem.

[Zagrax]

Gorgon = impact damage

Infested will giggle at those.

 

Get slashing damage which points you to Soma.

Or gasp even the Mk1 Braton has MORE slashing damage than a Gorgon.

(Gorgon 2.5 slashing damage, mk1 braton 10.7)

 

 

Grineer rustling your jimmes, get Latron Prime, serious it does insane damage against Grineer now.

 

 

Now it is no longer 1 size fits all.

So there is no 1 favourite weapon to rule them all.

Now there will just be 1 weapon to rule corpus, 1 weapon to rule grineer, 1 weapon to rule infested.

[FateZero]

Now there will just be 1 weapon to rule corpus, 1 weapon to rule grineer, 1 weapon to rule infested.

There can be only one King and Queen, but now there are many more Princes and Princess to rule over each faction. The peasants have risen.

If you don't get what I'm saying.

Yes there will always be one weapon that will be top, but now many more weapons are viable to be used.

[Azira]

I don't really think much has changed. Weapons that scaled well in the endgame were problematic in that they kept player preference in the lategame minimally important, because eventually it got to the point where you had to take the best weapon to even be viable. So damage 2.0 comes along and suddenly, the weapons have different balancing factors. However, I feel like the devs might not have realized what the problem was in the first place, which was the scaling of enemies. Sure, instead of just having 1 ultimate gun, you now have 3, but the issue still remains that at the end of the day, it doesn't add any more choice than damage 1.0 had. Just like you pluck out frost for high level defense, you'll still be picking the new 'best weapon'. The only difference is that you have to metagame three times as much now.

 

Compressing enemy levels didn't help either, it just makes the problems more noticeable to the average player as their weapons inevitably start doing next to nothing to high level enemies because they didn't pack today's version of the Soma. As long as enemies scale the way they do, the problems of damage 1.0 will haunt warframe, and enemy scaling can't change until they figure out non-statistical ways to increase difficulty. They can't make high level enemies vulnerable to anything but the best weapons, because then it becomes too easy for those who do use the best. Damage 1.0's problem was that the level of the enemy you fought did not reflect your skill level, but how much time you've invested in your loadout. They can change elemental damage types, tweak numbers, and add new weapons and frames all they want, but none of those will fix the way player and enemy damage, hp, armor, and shields fundamentally interact, and how it is necessary for one to significantly outscale the other for any challenge to be presented, which then can only be dealt with by seeking a better set of numbers encased within a weapon. The problem, the root of almost all of warframe's problems, remains intact: artificial difficulty and enemy AI. Those two things will make every change to damage and survivability band-aids until they are fixed.

 

In the end, it always seemed like elemental damage types were a way of customizing your gun to suit your preferences, but as long as enemy scaling dictates that there will be a 'best' gun for any circumstance, player preference cannot matter.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Azira