Puncture, Impact And Slash Mods.

[J-Pax]

First off I would like to apologise as this thread is very maths heavy, I will try to condense the information down into a short conclusion at the bottom of each post for easier reading, allowing people with the inclination to check the maths to do so in reading the full post.

 

 

They currently add 30% of a stat to itself, in contrast to elements which add X% of everything on top. This means that impact/slash/puncture mods are very underwhelming as that 30% additional damage is more like 12% additional damage on a properly modded weapon if you're picking that weapon's mainstat base damage, and likely closer to 1% if you're trying to shore up your weapons weakness versus the enemy you are facing.

 

 

This also means we can not specialize our weapons, if I'm going to go up against grineer with my tigris for example I will have an abundance of slash damage, which doesn't help much on higher levels of grineer, now if the puncture mod added 30% of the total basic shot damage (impact+puncture+slash) it would be a viable contender for a mod spot in my loadout.

 

Even more so, when using these mods they don't affect the elemental damage - if my elemental damage is based on my physical damage then these mods should also provide a benefit to elemental mods.

 

Short walkthrough:

 

 

Gun A:

 

Impact: 1.0

Puncture: 1.0

Slash: 10.0

 

Current system:

 

Impact mod adds 0.3 total damage

Puncture mod adds 0.3 total damage

Slash mod adds 3.0 damage.

Fire mod adds 11.8 damage. (90% bonus on card)

 

 

Proposed system:

 

Impact mod adds 3.6 total damage

Puncture mod adds 3.6 total damage

Slash mod adds 3.6 total damage

Fire mod adds 11.8 damage.

Total additional damage for Fire mod with Base damage mod equipped = 14.04 additional fire damage.

 

 

TL:DR - This concept means that hyper specialized guns can shore up their weaknesses in basic damage. Right now there is absolutely no point to using the impact/puncture/slash mods as their potency is ultimately too small, their cost too high and they don't even enter the race when competing for a place with other damage dealing cards.

Edited November 25, 2013 by J-Pax

[VentiGlondi]

Since when is 30% equal 1%

[J-Pax]

Since when is 30% equal 1%

 

Since maths. If I add 30% of a small number to a very large number it's relative improvement will be small, worked example:

 

Paris:

Base damage:

Impact 2.3

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

If I add Impact damage mod to shore up the impact shortage it currently adds a whopping 0.69 damage to impact, meaning it's relative improvement is 0.69/(2.3+33+9) = 0.0156 to 4 D.P. That is 1.56% improved damage.

 

In comparison to adding a toxic mod, which at maximum rank is 90% additional toxic damage:

 

Base damage:

Impact 2.3

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

Toxic Damage 39.87

 

Which is, rightly so, 90% additional base damage as advertised on the tin. If I now choose to add a impact mod I get this:

 

Base damage:

Impact 2.3

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

Impact mod damage 0.69

Toxic Damage 39.87

 

Total: 84.86

 

Of which the improvement that the impact mod offers in relevance to the base damage and additional toxic damage is 0.69/(2.3+33+9+39.87) = 0.0082 to 4 D.P. which is 0.82% damage improvement. To make this clearer, the more elemental mods I put on my weapon, the worse the impact mod gets in terms of damage benefit to mod power cost. So much so that utility cards like reload speed, clip size and maximum ammo will offer more damage and damage per second than these mods currently ever can.

Edited November 23, 2013 by J-Pax

[J-Pax]

Just because I can, my proposed system in this situation:

 

 

Paris with Toxic damage mod:

 

Base damage:

Impact 2.3

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

Toxic Damage 39.87

 

Paris with Impact:

 

Base damage:

Impact 2.3

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

Impact mod adds 13.29 additional impact damage to give 15.59 Impact damage. Next:

 

Paris with Impact + Toxic Mod:

 

Impact 15.59

Puncture 33.0

Slash 9.0

 

Toxic mod adds 51.831 toxic damage

 

Total: 109.421

 

 

In comparison: Proposed system example minus Current system example:

 

With an impact mod and a toxic mod in both systems the damage difference is 24.561 additional damage, with 12.6 additional impact damage and 11.961 additional toxic damage.

[Robsbot]

I'm not sure I quite agree with your approach, but I do like the idea. Even my more specialized weapons I occasionally think adding a physical damage mod would be a great idea, but then I just slap on two elemental mods and some crit mods instead and walk away with a better overall weapon. Your system might work great overall, who knows, and I'm sure the numbers could always be tweaked. It still feels as if physical damage is still the least useful damage type so maybe the extra nudge is all it needs.

[Da_Killa]

They currently add 30% of a stat to itself, in contrast to elements which add X% of everything on top. This means that impact/slash/puncture mods are very underwhelming as that 30% additional damage is more like 12% additional damage on a properly modded weapon if you're picking that weapon's mainstat base damage, and likely closer to 1% if you're trying to shore up your weapons weakness versus the enemy you are facing.

 

 

This also means we can not specialize our weapons, if I'm going to go up against grineer with my tigris for example I will have an abundance of slash damage, which doesn't help much on higher levels of grineer, now if the puncture mod added 30% of the total basic shot damage (impact+puncture+slash) it would be a viable contender for a mod spot in my loadout.

 

Even more so, when using these mods they don't affect the elemental damage - if my elemental damage is based on my physical damage then these mods should also provide a benefit to elemental mods.

 

Short walkthrough:

 

 

Gun A:

 

Impact: 1.0

Puncture: 1.0

Slash: 10.0

 

Current system:

 

Impact mod adds 0.3 total damage

Puncture mod adds 0.3 total damage

Slash mod adds 3.0 damage.

Fire mod adds 11.8 damage. (90% bonus on card)

 

 

Proposed system:

 

Impact mod adds 3.6 total damage

Puncture mod adds 3.6 total damage

Slash mod adds 3.6 total damage

Fire mod adds 11.8 damage.

Total additional damage for Fire mod with Base damage mod equipped = 14.04 additional fire damage.

 

 

TL:DR - This concept means that hyper specialized guns can shore up their weaknesses in basic damage. Right now there is absolutely no point to using the rupture/impact/slash mods as their potency is ultimately too small, their cost too high and they don't even enter the race when competing for a place with other damage dealing cards.

You are right , these mods do not provide enough damage , but I would rather go for a buff , having the mods maxed out on something like 80-100% increase in that certain damage , rather than having each mod increase the same amount.

 

The reason behind this would be specialization , so you don't use blade mods on puncture weapons and so on .

Example:

 

Weapon A

 

Impact:        15

Puncture:     30 

Slash:          20

 

Each mod: 90%

 

Final damage:

 

Impact:        15        + 13.5

Puncture:     30       +  27

Slash:          20        +  18

 

For me it seems better this way , because if I'm fighting Infested for example , I want a slash weapon with a slash mod, I don't want to do a rainbow build, and I can use the remaining slots for elemental combos , maybe crit mods , or status proc mods.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Da_Killa

[Archistopheles]

Elementals are supposed to be really good.

 

You'd be supporting the return of rainbow builds with your suggestion.

[SlyBoots]

Elementals are supposed to be really good.

 

You'd be supporting the return of rainbow builds with your suggestion.

 

how so? rainbow builds aren't effective because its a rock paper scissors system and elements combine. all he proposes is the ability to make every weapon actually viable against the faction it's not currently designed to be specialized against.

 

like atm you can mod any shotgun to be viable against grineer because accelerated blast works like elemental mods and not like a base damage type one, same goes for melee and rending strike. (which doesn't mean you want to stack every other damage type like impact as well...)

 

but even for the current system 30% doesn't cut it, and the pistol mods again beat primaries at 60% (not to mention the melee ones at 90%).

Edited November 23, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Shikazure]

rock paper scissor are no longer relevent though, Its add Corrosive damage to everything (toxin/lightning) Corrosive does 1.75x to armored foes and 1.5x to robotic and does neutral to everything else. so heres my question what advantage is there to increasing your physical damage when you can add corrosive instead?

[J-Pax]

 

rock paper scissor are no longer relevent though, Its add Corrosive damage to everything (toxin/lightning) Corrosive does 1.75x to armored foes and 1.5x to robotic and does neutral to everything else. so heres my question what advantage is there to increasing your physical damage when you can add corrosive instead?

 

Because if you're adding corrosive damage that's two mods, multishot is another (twice for pistols), and your basic damage. That's 4-5 mods. Next you either have critical damage if it's applicable to your specific weapon and not much else otherwise that isn't essentially a creature comfort mod, like reload and clip size. This means you potentially have spare room to add a card that could benefit your dps rather than whacking blast on it.

 

 

More to the point they made enemy groups weak to certain basic damages, but always in pairs across the group. Right now we have a system that makes you hardline your secondary and primary against half and half of the enemies you will likely be facing (okay that ratio may be a bit exagerrated) but because they only gave us an aura that improves weapon switch speed, of which there are clear cut better auras to choose, and no improvement to weapon switching in general (for example, a mod that improves the damage of your switched weapon for 5 shots or something), this is the reason that I believe they implemented these particular mods in question. To better balance a focused basic damage weapon against a generalised enemy type, and not to improve on your focused damage group. As such, this is why I made the above suggestion, purely because they do not fit in anywhere as a choice mod, either for amplifying your main focused damage or possibly improving your side damage groups - they always fall short. 

 

IMPORTANT BIT: They've said that they want us to use the guns we like, not the guns they think we should be using. This means a suggestion in this vein is more in line with that ethos than a suggestion to purely increase these cards statistical rating from 30% to something higher.

Edited November 24, 2013 by J-Pax

[Archistopheles]

You'd be supporting the return of rainbow builds

 

how so? rainbow builds aren't effective because its a rock paper scissors system and elements combine. all he proposes is the ability to make every weapon actually viable against the faction it's not currently designed to be specialized against.

 

every weapon... viable against [every] faction

[J-Pax]

 

 

sorry for no content^

 

 

Rainbow builds = WHACK DAMAGE ON EVERY SLOT TO WIN

 

This isn't rainbowing, this is closer to building your gun properly - more so than now purely because of the 12 mods that are pointless to slot currently. You'd still need to consider what you're up against and in no way would you be able to make a singular build on a gun that's effective against everything regardless of what you're fighting. You'd still need to alter the builds for different enemies.

 

Barring accelerated blast which behaves like my suggestion for the purposes of this argument, consider this:

 

I bring my Tigris to an infested fight. I stick +puncture damage on it to be more effective against leapers. I also want faster reload, extra clip to get that 3rd shell. This is in addition to the multishot and straight damage mod. So that's 5 mods so far. I'd also put blaze on it to help take down ancients and hellfire, so 7 mods - lastly I'd likely keep it as straight fire as it's the only element that does bonus to infested, as they're not counted as "flesh" (apparently) so my final slot is going to be a corrupted mod, maybe vicious spread to increase it's crowd damage.

 

Now. Is my gun going to do well against Corpus? The answer is a big fat no.

 

Therefore, rainbow is avoided. I would have to make an alternate build with my gun to deal with another faction.

[TheHeraldXII]

Elementals are supposed to be really good.

 

You'd be supporting the return of rainbow builds with your suggestion.

Wait, what? How is proposing a system to make the non-elemental mods worth taking bringing back rainbow builds. That is the exact opposite of what was proposed.

Me, I like the idea, using the total physical damage to determine the additional Puncture/Impact/Slash seems entirely reasonable. It's also the way elementals work, which is good for consistency.

[Da_Killa]

Wait, what? How is proposing a system to make the non-elemental mods worth taking bringing back rainbow builds. That is the exact opposite of what was proposed.

Me, I like the idea, using the total physical damage to determine the additional Puncture/Impact/Slash seems entirely reasonable. It's also the way elementals work, which is good for consistency.

I personally would prefer just a buff on the mods . This in my opinion is to make you use different weapons , rather than using the same weapon all the time , but with different loadouts. 

 

Anyway I see the point of being able to add a certain damage to your weapon as well , as sometimes you'll want a secondary type of damage on your weapon (this is the case of 80% puncture focused weapons).

 

All in all , no matter what the DE decide to do , rifle puncture, impact and slash mods NEED to be buffed , be it increase in the percentage or usage of total damage.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Da_Killa

[JHarlequin]

 If specialized weapons were worthwhile and had any stats that could greatly be improved by the impact, puncture, and slash mods, then maybe they would be worthwhile.  As it is, there really isn't much of a weapon that needs just one of those improvements.  The only reason I see for those new mods is to dilute the mod pool, and if they are an early mission drop while overall damage and elemental damage drops are from more difficult missions.

[Otaiken]

Weapon:

Impact 1
Puncture 1
Slash 10

When used as intended (against flesh/infested)

Slash 10 + 50% bonus against infested/flesh = 15 + 30% dmg mod = 19.5 dmg
Fire adds 90% of 15 = 13.5 + 50% against infested = 20.25 dmg
Fire adds 90% of 15 = 13.5 + 75% against flesh = 23.625 dmg

Both impact and puncture get -50% on Infested, no change on flesh

So the total is:

19.5 + 20.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 40.75 on Infested
19.5 + 23.625 + 1 + 1 = 45.125 on Flesh

OP assumes that slashing damage rifle mod will add 30% dmg out of base 10 for this particular slashing weapon, but when used as it should be (that is smartly) the base slashing damage of this weapon is actually 15 as it gets bonus on the factions IT'S INTENDED FOR. The same goes for the fire damage.

Moral of the story, don't be an idiot and use slash against Grineer/Corpus (at least without some heavy elemental damage) and don't mod mainly slashing weapons for Impact or Puncture. And don't expect to take slashing weapon (even with heavy elemental damage) against high level Corpus or Grineer and own them with it. Those bonuses are very much part of the dmg 2.0 system as it assumes you will use the most appropriate dmg type and you can't talk balance without taking those bonuses into account. The health value of enemies is also calculated with those bonuses in mind, so it should not be surprising to you that using the wrong weapon makes enemies tanky.

Edited November 24, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[blackraver]

When I fist looked at the Tigris I said "hmmm this is not a well designed weapon". After modding it, I can now say honestly that I trash grineer with it. Accelerated blast, blaze, point blank, bring its puncture to something like 256 for me. Slash is still higher at 273. This alone allows me to go grineer hunting. But add on blast elemental (mine is 320+-) and I massacre the grinneer. All that with something that supposedly had S#&$ty puncture to start with. No issue with the Tigris IMO

[Volthorne]

Weapon:

Impact 1

Puncture 1

Slash 10

When used as intended (against flesh/infested)

Slash 10 +30% dmg mod = 13 + 50% bonus against infested/flesh = 19.5 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 13 = 11.7 + 50% against infested = 20.25 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 13 = 11.7 + 75% against flesh = 23.625 dmg

Both impact and puncture get -50% on Infested, no change on flesh

So the total is:

19.5 + 20.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 40.75 on Infested

19.5 + 23.625 + 1 + 1 = 45.125 on Flesh

OP assumes that slashing damage rifle mod will add 30% dmg out of base 10 for this particular slashing weapon, but when used as it should be (that is smartly) the base slashing damage of this weapon is actually 15 as it gets bonus on the factions IT'S INTENDED FOR. The same goes for the fire damage.

Firstly, the OP "assumes" correctly, weapon mods take precedence over bonus damage (this is the way any developer would do it). Secondly, because of my first point, your math is wrong but I fixed it for you.

 

Weapon:

Impact 1

Puncture 1

Slash 10

When used as intended (against flesh/infested)

Slash 10 + 30% dmg mod = 13 + 50% bonus against infested/flesh = 19.5 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 13 = 11.7 + 50% against infested = 17.55 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 13 = 11.7 + 75% against flesh = 20.475 dmg

Both impact and puncture get -50% on Infested, no change on flesh

So the total is:

19.5 + 17.55 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 38.05 on Infested

19.5 + 20.475 + 1 + 1 = 41.975 on Flesh

Edited November 24, 2013 by Volthorne

[J-Pax]

Weapon:

Impact 1

Puncture 1

Slash 10

When used as intended (against flesh/infested)

Slash 10 + 50% bonus against infested/flesh = 15 + 30% dmg mod = 19.5 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 15 = 13.5 + 50% against infested = 20.25 dmg

Fire adds 90% of 15 = 13.5 + 75% against flesh = 23.625 dmg

Both impact and puncture get -50% on Infested, no change on flesh

So the total is:

19.5 + 20.25 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 40.75 on Infested

19.5 + 23.625 + 1 + 1 = 45.125 on Flesh

OP assumes that slashing damage rifle mod will add 30% dmg out of base 10 for this particular slashing weapon, but when used as it should be (that is smartly) the base slashing damage of this weapon is actually 15 as it gets bonus on the factions IT'S INTENDED FOR. The same goes for the fire damage.

Moral of the story, don't be an idiot and use slash against Grineer/Corpus (at least without some heavy elemental damage) and don't mod mainly slashing weapons for Impact or Puncture. And don't expect to take slashing weapon (even with heavy elemental damage) against high level Corpus or Grineer and own them with it. Those bonuses are very much part of the dmg 2.0 system as it assumes you will use the most appropriate dmg type and you can't talk balance without taking those bonuses into account. The health value of enemies is also calculated with those bonuses in mind, so it should not be surprising to you that using the wrong weapon makes enemies tanky.

 

I appreciate your point of view, but consider this:

 

DE have said they want us to use the guns we like.

 

If there isn't a way for me to use my dread or tigris against Grineer or Corpus robotics (at least partly) then that goes against what they've said. Also you essentially called me an idiot with your wording in your post so for your benefit I present the following:

 

 

Weapon: Dread

Base damage:

Impact 6.0

Puncture 6.0

Slash 48

 

With Slash mod:

 

Impact 6.0

Punture 6.0

Slash  62.4

 

Damage ratio: 74.4:60 = 1.24:1 ~ 24% increase.

 

Compared with an elemental mod:

Hellfire (11 points) 90% total improvement.

Sawtooth Clip (9 points) 24% effective improvement.

 

90/11 = 8.19       

24/9 = 2.67

 

8.19 : 2.67 = 3.067 : 1   --> An elemental mod is a little over 3x more worth your while to slot than the impact/slash/puncture mods. If you've polarized the slot then it just gets worse for the basic mods in terms of mod power economy and effective improvement to damage because the mod power difference is decreased from 2 to 1. If you re-read the maths of what I wrote in my original post, you will see that the mods serve both the purpose of IMPROVING the main contender better than currently, and also shoring up the differences in what you may require your gun to do - which is the main thing.

 

 

For the benefit of fairness I will do a comparison of a slash mod versus infested against an electrical mod.

 

 

Sawtooth clip (9 points) 24% effective improvement.

Stormbringer (11 points) 67.5% effective improvement.

 

I don't really think I need to go on past that. When even the element that infested are RESISTANT to does better than a mod that improves what they're weak to......if you're going to call me out and say I make assumptions, at least back up your own working with decent comparisons. Like a smart person would do.

Edited November 24, 2013 by J-Pax

[J-Pax]

When I fist looked at the Tigris I said "hmmm this is not a well designed weapon". After modding it, I can now say honestly that I trash grineer with it. Accelerated blast, blaze, point blank, bring its puncture to something like 256 for me. Slash is still higher at 273. This alone allows me to go grineer hunting. But add on blast elemental (mine is 320+-) and I massacre the grinneer. All that with something that supposedly had S#&$ty puncture to start with. No issue with the Tigris IMO

 

Yes it does function fine at the moment but accelerated blast behaves differently than the straight up +impact/puncture/slash mods. This is what the thread is about, the standard impact/puncture/slash mods, not accelerated blast.

 

Accelerated blast takes all the basic damage and whacks 60% of that damage on as puncture. The regular mods take one look at the tiny puncture value and add 30% of THAT damage on as more puncture damage. Accelerated blast behaves like the elements do, and the regular mods do not.

 

Showing the difference here for you:

 

Tigris:

 

Impact 14

Puncture 14

Slash 112

 

With Accelerated Blast (+60% Puncture Damage):

 

Impact 14

Puncture 98 (14+(14+14+112)*0.6)

Slash 112

 

With Flechette (+30% Puncture Damage):

 

Impact 14

Puncture 18.2 (14*1.3)

Slash 112

 

98:18.2 = 5.385: 1  <- this ratio should be 1.6 : 1.3 -> 1.231 : 1

 

 

The same goes for Rending Strike for melee weapons with arbitrarily better ratios.

Edited November 24, 2013 by J-Pax

[qqchurch]

Meanwhile... Bane mods pretty much affect the entire damage output at the cost of 2 more mod energy than Base component damage mods...

 

I like the idea, though. Can actually build an all-round weapon if you can raise up a weapons weaker stats.

[Agente_GentlePhoenix]

+1 To this perfect explanation about increase the mods

[TwiceDead]

IMPORTANT BIT: They've said that they want us to use the guns we like, not the guns they think we should be using. This means a suggestion in this vein is more in line with that ethos than a suggestion to purely increase these cards statistical rating from 30% to something higher.

 

I don't particularly agree with this.

I think weapons should remain specialized for specific factions, rather than let you take any weapon and build it towards whatever faction you want. The current IPS system gives the weapons a sense of identity, it's the elemental mod that screws it over by being powerful, while the physical damage mods are garbage. And even if you buff the physical damage mods, you'll only be adding fuel to the elemental mods. 

 

EDIT:

Scratched the false information. My bad. 

Edited November 25, 2013 by TwiceDead

[J-Pax]

I don't particularly agree with this.

I think weapons should remain specialized for specific factions, rather than let you take any weapon and build it towards whatever faction you want. The current IPS system gives the weapons a sense of identity, it's the elemental mod that screws it over by being powerful, while the physical damage mods are garbage. And even if you buff the physical damage mods, you'll only be adding fuel to the elemental mods. 

 

Tbh every weapon has it's flavour, regardless of the mods. I've always liked the aklato, because dualies is where it's at for me, so I want to stick with them, be able to build them for different situations, not have to switch out for akbolto instead - which I funnily enough despise - for a different situation. Weapons don't necessarily have to become customisable to the standard of every other weapon, but they should be able to make up for their short comings, at least to a reasonable margin, if you're dead set on choosing and playing with them.

 

Pick your favourite gun in the game. Now realise you've got to change it out for a gun you dislike to fight the next faction. Would you rather you could mod it to be more effective (although not quite as good as the alternative) against that faction, or would you rather you essentially have to change weapon to put a dent in them?

[Da_Killa]

Tbh every weapon has it's flavour, regardless of the mods. I've always liked the aklato, because dualies is where it's at for me, so I want to stick with them, be able to build them for different situations, not have to switch out for akbolto instead - which I funnily enough despise - for a different situation. Weapons don't necessarily have to become customisable to the standard of every other weapon, but they should be able to make up for their short comings, at least to a reasonable margin, if you're dead set on choosing and playing with them.

 

Pick your favourite gun in the game. Now realise you've got to change it out for a gun you dislike to fight the next faction. Would you rather you could mod it to be more effective (although not quite as good as the alternative) against that faction, or would you rather you essentially have to change weapon to put a dent in them?

I think the point is the DE want to see some different builds , and that's why weapons should be specialized and mods should get just a buff.

 

Just think about it , did you enjoy the general soma/acrid/galatine sight of U10 ? 

I didn't, got sick of seeing those weapons over and over again in every mission , if DE would make the mods use total damage the same thing will happen now , most people will take the weapons with the best base damage and shove all the possible mods in there , do a rainbow build and voila!, even if on certain damages they'll do worse than specifically tailored weapons , overall their weapon would handle any enemy.

 

The whole point of Damage 2.0 is to make more weapons viable, and more mods usable , so there is a slight diversity , and you get to pick mods , rather then default them , and more weapons are worth farming , and not just for mastery , but for their specific damage types.

 

And don't forget that sometimes you meet grineers with shields , or infested with armor , on higher levels , and again , if you don't have two types of weapons on you , this further suggests the use of general weapons with high damage , rather than specializing them, and if you would be able to do that with puncture/impact/slash mods , that would be the last thing rainbow build fans need.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Da_Killa