In Other News, Pistol Mods Continue To Be Overpowered

[PaperAlien]

I'm sure everyone is familiar with how pistol mods have always been obnoxiously overpowered compared to rifle or shotgun counterparts. Their reload speed, spare ammo, fire-rate and pretty much every mod is a straight upgrade from rifle mods and sometimes also shotgun mods, and they're the only class with 2 multi-shot mods. Their one downfall was AP mods, but even then, No Return had a low cost which somewhat made up for its low 30% bonus.

That was, of course, until DE decided pistols were clearly the most underpowered weapons, and chose to buff No Return to 90% AP while retaining the 7 point cost. While that was excusable as a response to the overwhelming reliance on AP and AI damage under Damage 1.0, Damage 2.0 has now come, and instead of tuning back No Return to its former level, DE has further nerfed Flechette and Piercing Hit instead, so that No Return now gives 60% Puncture damage for 7 points, while the other 2 give 30% for 9 points! What's more, they seem to have copied this exact ratio to Slash and Impact mods as well, so that pistols pretty much beat both shotgun and rifle mods in everything now.

For a class of weapons that was supposed to be, you know, secondary back-up weapons, pistols really aren't filling their role at all. My level 11 Brakk is pretty much a straight upgrade from my level 30 Strun Wraith. That should say something.

I understand DE has a lot on their plate in terms of rebalancing things at the moment, given the new damage system, but I'm hoping they realise this is an issue and intend to deal with it at some point.

Edited November 23, 2013 by PaperAlien

[Stormquake]

I was actually going to make a post about how irritating this is today.

 

I think all weapons of all types should have 11 points for 90% elemental damage and 7 points for 60% physical damage of all types. I'm tired of random types getting 10% or 15% per level on certain weapons for varying amounts of mod points, and secondaries always seeming to get the most, it's unbearably frustrating. On my Trinity, I barely even use my Hek because my Vasto is so superior to it due to mod number differences.

 

EDIT: I meant to say 11 points for 90%. Goodness, 9 for 90% would be really silly.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Stormquake

[Zyrusticae]

A lot of this is down to some secondaries (Brakk, I'm lookin' at you) being far superior to every other secondary. 

 

If they all fell along the same baseline as, say, the Lato, the higher values wouldn't even be an issue. 

[PaperAlien]

A lot of this is down to some secondaries (Brakk, I'm lookin' at you) being far superior to every other secondary. 

 

If they all fell along the same baseline as, say, the Lato, the higher values wouldn't even be an issue. 

It actually still would, because secondaries as a whole are scaling more than primaries. Why? Every single time, it just feels like DE randomly types up the numbers when designing the mod, and this difference is completely unneccesary and very likely detrimental to gameplay.

[ra9una]

While I'm not arguing the facts, I like the way it scales as of now. The secondary weapon being so OP gives me a reason to switch to it every now and then, of course you may make the argument that because of this you never feel compelled to switch back, I just don't feel that way.

[PaperAlien]

While I'm not arguing the facts, I like the way it scales as of now. The secondary weapon being so OP gives me a reason to switch to it every now and then, of course you may make the argument that because of this you never feel compelled to switch back, I just don't feel that way.

I will indeed make that argument, and you may need more reason than "I just don't feel that way" to refute it. Secondary weapons are supposed to be back-up weapons to be used when the primary is unusable, either because of lack of ammo or having to carry objects such as datamasses. Primaries are supposed to be more powerful in the situations when you can use them. Right now, many pistols are preferable to primaries in every situation.

[Stormquake]

I will indeed make that argument, and you may need more reason than "I just don't feel that way" to refute it. Secondary weapons are supposed to be back-up weapons to be used when the primary is unusable, either because of lack of ammo or having to carry objects such as datamasses. Primaries are supposed to be more powerful in the situations when you can use them. Right now, many pistols are preferable to primaries in every situation.

There's also the silly fact that most of them can reach 399 max ammunition without including the starting magazine. My Vasto deals around 60% the damage of my Hek with every shot, and mind you that's a single shot as opposed to the Hek's spray, so if it hits, you get the full package. I don't know how it's balanced in any way that the Hek can only achieve a max ammo capacity of 156, while the Vasto gets 399. 60% of the damage for 255% the ammo efficiency. Something isn't adding up right.

[AlphaWerewolf]

It's incredibly frustrating having put most of my upgrades in primaries and liking all of my primary weapons, only to find that people with equally high-leveled mods are hugely out-dpsing me with pistols. This is so obvious, I can't believe DE hasn't fixed this yet.

[Ribboz]

Buff rifle mods! :D Don't touch our pistol mods.

[DuWryght]

I haven't potatoed or formaed any primary I have as all the store-bought ones (save for the Burston and Hind) suck compared to my secondaries.

 

Kunia, Akvastos... dear god I can only remember not liking my Lato. Once I mastered it and got my Kunai, every other primary after my Burston never gets used. It's a real shame.

 

I don't have a pistol dmg boost mod yet (aka the serration for 2ndaries), but it seems like a moot issue right now. Given how there are missions that force me to use my superior 2ndary weapon, they get so much more exp as I don't bother switching.

[Leuca]

It actually opens up better support builds for people who enjoy playing Banshee/Nyx/etc. Since some of us like to stay back and snipe, having a melt-face secondary is a must when things get crowded. I do however think the mods for primary/melee need to be brought up rather than bringing secondaries down.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Leuca

[Hyunsai]

That's strange, because in all high level mission, all I see is people using their Soma/Synapse/Penta/Braton Prime.... What are the pistols that make those weapons useless ?

[drMightyPotato]

Everyone needs to take into account that yes secondary mods are stronger than ANY mod of the same type in the game, BUT without those mods there would be ZERO use for secondary weapons, like, at all!

I mean, what is the point in using a secondary weapon if it doesnt do any damage.

Gonna go down the flame lane here a involve real life logic: a shot to the head with a pistol will kill you just as easly as any other AK-47 (sure there is the design of the bullet, the type etc, etc but we are speaking strictly usefulness)

Mind you i still dont see a reason why i would use a secondary over primary anyway and vice versa since weapons, at least for me, are here to be used propperly. Either rush in yo' face with a shotgun with a sniper pistol or a steady advance with a assault rifle and a sniper/shotgun type pistol.

[Silver_Fox75]

I can agree with this. Pistols get 2 different multishot mods for a total of +180% vs rifles having 1 for +90%, and shotguns with 1 for +120%. Why not at least buff split chamber to +120% so they're comparable. You pretty much covered the problem with physical and elemental damage mods OP

[Aglethe]

It's certainly true for some mods, yes (the physical damage type mods are really wonky, and it would be nice to be able to get 100% multi shot for sniper rifles and bows). On the other hand though, there are also mods for primaries that are better than their secondary counter parts, like the crit damage and corrupted damage mods.

What you're running into is partly an artifact of power creep on early/mid game weapons. Older weapons like the Braton series and Latrons haven't kept pace with the Vastos and throwing weapons (although those didn't fair well in the transition to damage 2.0). But as Hyunsai mentioned, that trend reverses in the late game, where weapons like the Soma, Synapse, Vectis, and Ogris become dominant.

Hopefully the Bratons and Latrons will get their turn with the buff hammer, but in the interim, the new Karak and recently buffed Grakata seem to be among the best options for early/mid game primaries. The exact balance at that stage in the game will depend heavily on the mods that you've found so far, but they're generally on par with the secondary weapons available at that time.

[BrotherIcarus]

Well even though this is the case I don't see many people forgoing there primary's or melee weapons for there pistol. It is nothing more than a better incentive to use your secondary. And lets face it anyone who actually thinks this is the case (about pistol mods being "OP") are just greedy and want there other weapons to be made more powerful.

[TrashSpider]

I agree, my 1 forma Aklato out damages my 4 forma dera... both have 120% damage mod -,-

[Volthorne]

And lets face it anyone who actually thinks this is the case (about pistol mods being "OP") are just greedy and want there other weapons to be made more powerful.

Wrong. I want my secondaries to get weaker! We already have too many game-breakingly strong weapons, and it needs to stop! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS!

[thejynxed]

Wrong. I want my secondaries to get weaker! We already have too many game-breakingly strong weapons, and it needs to stop! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS!

 

^ This person is obviously drunk and has never played Pluto Endless Defense or T3 Defense.

[ArmyOfFun]

Wrong. I want my secondaries to get weaker! We already have too many game-breakingly strong weapons, and it needs to stop! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS! NO MORE BUFFS!

They are weapon modifications.  You choose the extent to push it up to game-breaking.  Yes, steamroll normal content.  After you get done with normal content like the rest of us have you can do extended runs that require normally game-breakingly strong weapons.

 

Use a gun without a potato then you can only fit 220% dmg and 120% multishot with no polarities and then have 5 mod points to spare.

[Archistopheles]

I'm sure someone brought it up already, but isn't it odd that secondary mods are "overpowered" yet the Synapse, Soma, and Penta are still the go-to power picks?

 

I mean, sure, there's Brakk, but he's not available to everyone.

[Brimir]

The problem is obvious:

 

1. Rifle mods are all geared towards Status and Critical Hit Chance - these mods are far superior than any other weapon class.

2. Pistol mods are all geared towards raw damage and Elemental damage.

 

So what does this mean? Well, unless you have a rifle built for Critical Hits (read: Soma) you are gonna end up with a sub-par weapon, meanwhile the strength of Pistol mods work for all secondaries.

[lautalocos]

combine pistol and rifle mods into one.

 

fixes drop tables and makes guns and mods easier to balance.

 

also, secondary weapons always worked as a C***erpart to what weapon you are using as primary. primary is long range? secondary should be short range.

[Volthorne]

^ This person is obviously drunk and has never played Pluto Endless Defense or T3 Defense.

I'm fine, I can walk. I just need to find the nearest garbage can. Like, now.

 

On a serious note, I have done those, but I typically stay away because the weapons I like to use don't really do well there, because DE can't balance worth S#&$.

 

They are weapon modifications.  You choose the extent to push it up to game-breaking.  Yes, steamroll normal content.  After you get done with normal content like the rest of us have you can do extended runs that require normally game-breakingly strong weapons.

 

Use a gun without a potato then you can only fit 220% dmg and 120% multishot with no polarities and then have 5 mod points to spare.

Maybe our gear should scale with the starting difficulty of the planet/node we are playing on. Then everything could be fairly well balanced and still be useful without being overly strong at low-level planets/nodes.

[ArmyOfFun]

I'm fine, I can walk. I just need to find the nearest garbage can. Like, now.

 

On a serious note, I have done those, but I typically stay away because the weapons I like to use don't really do well there, because DE can't balance worth S#&$.

 

Maybe our gear should scale with the starting difficulty of the planet/node we are playing on. Then everything could be fairly well balanced and still be useful without being overly strong at low-level planets/nodes.

No, that would mean that you won't get anywhere in endless missions at all.  How would a weapon scaled to prevent oneshotting/steamrolling low level mobs be able to dent the health bars of enemies 30 minutes into a survival/defense run?

 

Since it would make everything dependent on mods it could be good or bad.  Higher level enemies on the normal mission of the star chart excluding endless would always be more difficult at higher levels with mods helping up to a point, but that would mean unmodded weapons would have to be somewhat viable in the same scenario.

 

It would require a revamped exp/drop and reward system to work as it would no longer be about racking in a few thousand kills for resources and about killing fewer sturdier enemies.