Archgun rework and the thesis of Artillery-class weapons.

[RavingRoman]

 

Plenty of reworks going around with different elements to Warframe. From pets up to specific frames like Hydroid. With all of that going on, I'd like to propose a change to be made to Archguns so that they can also be updated to have a satisfying use in Warframe that will also have their powers balanced out. 

- New weapon/ammo type: Artillery and Ordinance
The proposition starts with classifying archguns and even certain primary weapons as "Artillery and Ordinance." Weapons under this classification need two things to have a functional yet balanced use in the game. Raw Power and Limited Use. Raw power guarantees that the weapon will be extremely effective whenever it is brought to bear. However, limited use requires that the wielder must strategically choose when to use such a weapon to make the most out of its destructive power. 

I recommend giving these weapons either a boost in their numerical powers, or otherwise giving them the ability to ignore and cut through most if not all kinds of defenses, or even simply beat out Damage Attenuation, which appears to be a growing concept among various bosses. Out of all weapon types, having their bullets creating AoE damage/punch through also makes sense. These weapons need to have the primary function of being anti-materiel ordinance. Of course this change will make the most sense in modes like Archwing/Railjack or when combating larger foes and vehicles anywhere else. Of course at that point, DE should really consider creating more artillery/tank units for the enemy factions to act as the ideal context for the archguns. Vehicles like the Thumper, Dropships, and Orbs Mothers are great; but there needs to be more. It would make a lot of sense if that is what the enemy would use against the mighty Tenno. More gunships, fixed artillery turrets, Light Artillery Vehicles, Power Suits, Cars, Additional Eidolons, Galleons and Capital Ships, and even mere pieces of important structures and equipment. And if the occasional urge for cruelty arises, the Tenno can just wipe the floor with general infantry. 

HOWEVER! 

This needs to come with the caveat that the use becomes limited. Remove Archgun ammo drops entirely, and create the consequence for improper use. Of course this isn't to say to lock players out entirely from dealing damage to vehicle units, but to not have the advantage of the archgun's ability to wreck them faster. 

 

[Pakaku]

Hot-take: Archguns and Archmelee are too weak to be classified as heavy weapons, and should be moved to the standard weapon slots. The only reason they ever got allowed onto land-based missions, as they were, is to put an arbitrary restriction on Profit-Taker fights anyways, which is a very anti-player design choice.

They should be scaled down (figuratively and physically) and reclassified as regular weapons, while keeping the old mods as their own unique set of Archgun mods (like Snipers have special mods.) The mods could be compatible with regular mods, perhaps to imply the heavy weapon concept that way.

Nothing else really needs to change IMO, the very act of allowing regular mods on them opens up a ton of power potential that Archgun and Archmelee-specific mods simply lack

Edited September 5, 2023 by Pakaku

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

7 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

Plenty of reworks going around with different elements to Warframe. From pets up to specific frames like Hydroid. With all of that going on, I'd like to propose a change to be made to Archguns so that they can also be updated to have a satisfying use in Warframe that will also have their powers balanced out. 

- New weapon/ammo type: Artillery and Ordinance
The proposition starts with classifying archguns and even certain primary weapons as "Artillery and Ordinance." Weapons under this classification need two things to have a functional yet balanced use in the game. Raw Power and Limited Use. Raw power guarantees that the weapon will be extremely effective whenever it is brought to bear. However, limited use requires that the wielder must strategically choose when to use such a weapon to make the most out of its destructive power. 

I recommend giving these weapons either a boost in their numerical powers, or otherwise giving them the ability to ignore and cut through most if not all kinds of defenses, or even simply beat out Damage Attenuation, which appears to be a growing concept among various bosses. Out of all weapon types, having their bullets creating AoE damage/punch through also makes sense. These weapons need to have the primary function of being anti-materiel ordinance. Of course this change will make the most sense in modes like Archwing/Railjack or when combating larger foes and vehicles anywhere else. Of course at that point, DE should really consider creating more artillery/tank units for the enemy factions to act as the ideal context for the archguns. Vehicles like the Thumper, Dropships, and Orbs Mothers are great; but there needs to be more. It would make a lot of sense if that is what the enemy would use against the mighty Tenno. More gunships, fixed artillery turrets, Light Artillery Vehicles, Power Suits, Cars, Additional Eidolons, Galleons and Capital Ships, and even mere pieces of important structures and equipment. And if the occasional urge for cruelty arises, the Tenno can just wipe the floor with general infantry. 

HOWEVER! 

This needs to come with the caveat that the use becomes limited. Remove Archgun ammo drops entirely, and create the consequence for improper use. Of course this isn't to say to lock players out entirely from dealing damage to vehicle units, but to not have the advantage of the archgun's ability to wreck them faster. 

So you want Archguns to have a boost or make overpowered enemies Vulnerable to Archguns 

By making bigger numbers or special attributes on base

Example- Profit taker having a adaptive shield excuse when their massive healthbar would have worked fine

If its similar,

[(PSN)IdoThea]

8 hours ago, RavingRoman said:

This needs to come with the caveat that the use becomes limited. Remove Archgun ammo drops entirely

I don't like this. I like to use archguns freely.

[CrownOfShadows]

I would agree only if they were all designed as cannon-style weapons with huge obliterating shots with massive recoil and reload.

Since they range from beams to machine guns, I don't think this would work too well - it might actually be simpler to create a new class of necramech weapon: shoulder mounted artillery (rockets, missiles, mortars, etc) (something necramechs and archwings honestly would kinda love), and maybe give that to the tenno as the big boomstick with only very niche/clutch use.

[RavingRoman]

On 2023-09-05 at 2:08 PM, Pakaku said:

Hot-take: Archguns and Archmelee are too weak to be classified as heavy weapons, and should be moved to the standard weapon slots. The only reason they ever got allowed onto land-based missions, as they were, is to put an arbitrary restriction on Profit-Taker fights anyways, which is a very anti-player design choice.

They should be scaled down (figuratively and physically) and reclassified as regular weapons, while keeping the old mods as their own unique set of Archgun mods (like Snipers have special mods.) The mods could be compatible with regular mods, perhaps to imply the heavy weapon concept that way.

Nothing else really needs to change IMO, the very act of allowing regular mods on them opens up a ton of power potential that Archgun and Archmelee-specific mods simply lack

Perhaps seeing the equalization between archwing weapons and primary weapons is a possible alternative as the two barely have any differences unless DE seriously wishes to update/rework the mode entirely. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I'll quickly go over each individual archgun with what I think of them. (only "best" variants)

 

Révélation

Cortege :

Révélation

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is a flamethrower. That's good.
• Its secondary fire mode is a wide arc of grenades that deal good damage, are easy to land and leave lingering damage behind. That's good.
• It has good stats in both modes, except one. That's good.
• Unfortunately, the bad stat is an abysmal fire rate in secondary fire mode, which leaves you doing strictly nothing for two seconds after you fired the weapon. That's very bad.
• Questionable usability in Archwing. That's bad.

 

Corvas Prime :

Révélation

• Impressive stats. That's good.
• Infinite body punchthrough. That's good.
• Base Heat damage. That's good.
• Decent reload time. That's good.

 

Cyngas :

Révélation

• Evenly distributed IPS. That's fine.
• Decent stats. That's good.
• Decent fire rate and reload speed. That's good.
• Single Target only. That's meh.
• Auto Burst fire mode. That's acceptable.

 

Prisma Dual Decurions :

Révélation

• Mostly great stats. That's good.
• Mainly impact focused. Not cool.
• Low mag size. Not cool.
• Single Target only. That's meh.

 

Fluctus :

Révélation

• Decent stats all around. That's good.
• Infinite body punch through. That's good.
• Mainly Slash focused. That's good.

 

Kuva Grattler :

Révélation

• High stats. That's good.
• Has very large radial attacks. That's good.
• Can benefit from Kuva Progenitor bonus elemental damage. That's good.

 

Kuva Ayanga :

Révélation

• High stats. That's good.
• Large radial attacks. That's good.
• Can benefit from Kuva Progenitor bonus elemental damage. That's good.

 

Imperator Vandal :

Révélation

• Good critical stats. That's good.
• Low status chance. That's bad.
• Mainly Impact focused. Not great.
• Single Target only. That's meh.

 

Larkspur Prime :

Révélation

• Interesting but useless gimmick of having low crit chance beam firing mode and slow but strong charged shot. That's just what the weapon is though.
• Awful knockback when firing the charged shot. That kills the weapon altogether for me.
• Interesting base damage type in Radiation. That's good.
• Acceptable stats all around. That's good.
• Beam links targets together, fairly large radial attack on charged shot. That's good.

 

Mausolon :

Révélation

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is an assault rifle with a portion of radial damage. That's good.
• Its secondary fire mode is a strong AoE with huge damage and large blast radius. That's good.
• Best possible stats. That's good.
• Base Heat damage. That's good.

 

Morgha :

Révélation

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is a grenade launcher. That's good.
• The grenades do low damage and have ridiculously small AoE. That's bad.
• Its secondary fire mode is a strong AoE with huge damage and large blast radius. That's good.
• Has some of the worst ammo economy of all Archguns in Heavy Weapon mode. That's bad.
• Good stats otherwise. That's good.

 

Phaedra :

Révélation

• Mostly Puncture focused. Not great.
• High status chance. That's good.
• Bad crit chance. Not great.
• Single Target only. Not great.

 

Velocitus :

Révélation

• Great stats. That's good.
• Evenly distributed IPS + Magnetic. That's good.
• Has high punchthrough by default. That's good.
• Slower fire rate and low mag size, it's a sniper of sorts. That's acceptable.

Basically, most of the guns are meh at worst, and insanely good at best. Which leads me to believe that it's not the guns themselves that are the issue, but mainly the mods and their lackluster stats :

• https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Parallax_Scope
• https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Dual_Rounds

 

Parallax Scope giving only 100% extra crit chance is just as horrible as Blunderbuss. But shotguns have an option in Critical Decceleration, archguns have nothing else to replace it.

Dual Rounds is a complete joke. It's only as strong as Vigilante Armaments, but costs more capacity, and feels like playing roll the dice for each shot you fire, where 40% of the time, the mod is wasted capacity.

Having an equivalent to Primed Firestorm would be pointless/overpowered depending on the archgun and content you're facing with it.

 

It's not so much Archguns that need a buff, it's the mods that they use. They need to be balanced to be at least in line with primary weapon mods, with the introduction of Galvanized Archgun mods, together with Arcanes. Without all of this, it's no wonder Steel Path archwing content is limited to just barely +50 levels and half the stat boosts of ground SP missions, as it would otherwise be a complete disaster. And in fact, it's already a complete disaster, because if you're not using Amesha in SP or RJ, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Itzal and Odonata bring nothing to the table, while Elytron is left behind doing no damage.

 

Dead gamemodes. Dead mods. That's why those weapons are dead. S2G Pablo needs to look into it and get it fixed.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I'll quickly go over each individual archgun with what I think of them. (only "best" variants)

 

  Hide contents

Cortege :

  Reveal hidden contents

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is a flamethrower. That's good.
• Its secondary fire mode is a wide arc of grenades that deal good damage, are easy to land and leave lingering damage behind. That's good.
• It has good stats in both modes, except one. That's good.
• Unfortunately, the bad stat is an abysmal fire rate in secondary fire mode, which leaves you doing strictly nothing for two seconds after you fired the weapon. That's very bad.
• Questionable usability in Archwing. That's bad.

 

Corvas Prime :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Impressive stats. That's good.
• Infinite body punchthrough. That's good.
• Base Heat damage. That's good.
• Decent reload time. That's good.

 

Cyngas :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Evenly distributed IPS. That's fine.
• Decent stats. That's good.
• Decent fire rate and reload speed. That's good.
• Single Target only. That's meh.
• Auto Burst fire mode. That's acceptable.

 

Prisma Dual Decurions :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Mostly great stats. That's good.
• Mainly impact focused. Not cool.
• Low mag size. Not cool.
• Single Target only. That's meh.

 

Fluctus :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Decent stats all around. That's good.
• Infinite body punch through. That's good.
• Mainly Slash focused. That's good.

 

Kuva Grattler :

  Reveal hidden contents

• High stats. That's good.
• Has very large radial attacks. That's good.
• Can benefit from Kuva Progenitor bonus elemental damage. That's good.

 

Kuva Ayanga :

  Reveal hidden contents

• High stats. That's good.
• Large radial attacks. That's good.
• Can benefit from Kuva Progenitor bonus elemental damage. That's good.

 

Imperator Vandal :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Good critical stats. That's good.
• Low status chance. That's bad.
• Mainly Impact focused. Not great.
• Single Target only. That's meh.

 

Larkspur Prime :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Interesting but useless gimmick of having low crit chance beam firing mode and slow but strong charged shot. That's just what the weapon is though.
• Awful knockback when firing the charged shot. That kills the weapon altogether for me.
• Interesting base damage type in Radiation. That's good.
• Acceptable stats all around. That's good.
• Beam links targets together, fairly large radial attack on charged shot. That's good.

 

Mausolon :

  Reveal hidden contents

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is an assault rifle with a portion of radial damage. That's good.
• Its secondary fire mode is a strong AoE with huge damage and large blast radius. That's good.
• Best possible stats. That's good.
• Base Heat damage. That's good.

 

Morgha :

  Reveal hidden contents

• As an Entrati weapon, it has two firing modes. That's good.
• Its primary fire mode is a grenade launcher. That's good.
• The grenades do low damage and have ridiculously small AoE. That's bad.
• Its secondary fire mode is a strong AoE with huge damage and large blast radius. That's good.
• Has some of the worst ammo economy of all Archguns in Heavy Weapon mode. That's bad.
• Good stats otherwise. That's good.

 

Phaedra :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Mostly Puncture focused. Not great.
• High status chance. That's good.
• Bad crit chance. Not great.
• Single Target only. Not great.

 

Velocitus :

  Reveal hidden contents

• Great stats. That's good.
• Evenly distributed IPS + Magnetic. That's good.
• Has high punchthrough by default. That's good.
• Slower fire rate and low mag size, it's a sniper of sorts. That's acceptable.

 

Basically, most of the guns are meh at worst, and insanely good at best. Which leads me to believe that it's not the guns themselves that are the issue, but mainly the mods and their lackluster stats :

• https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Parallax_Scope
• https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Dual_Rounds

 

Parallax Scope giving only 100% extra crit chance is just as horrible as Blunderbuss. But shotguns have an option in Critical Decceleration, archguns have nothing else to replace it.

Dual Rounds is a complete joke. It's only as strong as Vigilante Armaments, but costs more capacity, and feels like playing roll the dice for each shot you fire, where 40% of the time, the mod is wasted capacity.

Having an equivalent to Primed Firestorm would be pointless/overpowered depending on the archgun and content you're facing with it.

 

It's not so much Archguns that need a buff, it's the mods that they use. They need to be balanced to be at least in line with primary weapon mods, with the introduction of Galvanized Archgun mods, together with Arcanes. Without all of this, it's no wonder Steel Path archwing content is limited to just barely +50 levels and half the stat boosts of ground SP missions, as it would otherwise be a complete disaster. And in fact, it's already a complete disaster, because if you're not using Amesha in SP or RJ, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Itzal and Odonata bring nothing to the table, while Elytron is left behind doing no damage.

 

Dead gamemodes. Dead mods. That's why those weapons are dead. S2G Pablo needs to look into it and get it fixed.

I agree 100% with what you're saying about archgun mods & arcanes.

They've needed massive expansion since forever-ago, and even just 4 new damage-adjacent mods could kick some of these into devastating territory.