the geneva suggestion checklist - how many war crimes can we commit in warframe?

[SDGDen]

it's been meme'd quite a bit, the tenno commit various warcrimes, just look at saryn or ember. but now the question remains: just HOW many different warcrimes can we commit? I was bored, so i decided to find out. 

 

to find this out, i've found a summary of the geneva convention and it's additional protocols, written by the american red cross in 2011. In this post i will be going through the entire document and trying to find a way to commit the crimes listed in warframe. 

i'll be skipping over *some* crimes as they are inappropriate for discussion on the forum, the document i have is not listing the articles in order (instead categorizing them by type of law) so i will not be listing them in order either. some articles (such as article 12: wounded and sick shall be respected and protected without discrimination) don't contain any war crimes and will thus also be skipped.

 

first geneva convention:

>article 12: the wounded and sick shall not be murdered, exterminated or subjected to torture or biological experiments. 

since the grineer are suffering from clone rot, we could consider them sick i guess? but generally "the wounded and sick" means those too wounded or sick to be a combatant. considering that we only deal with neutral/hostile non-combatants on the grineer shipyard tileset (there are neutral grineer workers there) i don't think we can commit this warcrime? 

>article 15: the wounded and sick shall be protected against pillage and ill treatment

we can't really do this one either, again because we don't face any combatants that are too sick or injured for combat. 

>article 15 and 16: all parties in a conflict must search for and collect the wounded and sick, especially after a battle, and provide information concerning them to the red cross

we don't do this, at all. we just leave a mass of bodies that are *probably* dead behind us. as such, we do commit this war crime.

second geneva convention:

>articles 12 and 18: all parties in battle take all possible measures to search for, collect and care for wounded, sick and shipwrecked. shipwrecked refers to anyone adrift for any reason, including those forced to land at sea or to parachute from a damaged aircraft

again, we don't do this, thus committing this war crime. 

>article 21: neutral vessels can be asked to take care of wounded, sick and shipwrecked. if they agree to help they cannot be captured as long as they remain neutral. 

we don't commit this crime, since we never see any neutral vessels so we have no opportunity to capture or attack them. 

>article 22: hospital ships cannot be used for military purpose and cannot be captured or attacked

hospital ships don't exist in warframe, so we can't commit this war crime. 

third geneva convention:

i'll be very short about this one: the entire third geneva convention revolves around the treatment of prisoners of war, we never take any prisoners of war so we cannot commit any war crimes in this convention. 

fourth geneva convention: 

this entire convention is about the protection of civilians, for this convention we'll consider the workers on the grineer shipyard "civilians". 

>article 13 and 32: civilians are protected from murder, torture and brutality. 

we break this whenever we go to the shipyard, considering that we frequently murder the workers on accident in the most brutal of ways. 

>article 14: hospital and safety zones must be established for civilians

we don't make any of these, so again, war crime. 

>article 40: civilians cannot be forced to do military-related work for an occupying force

we don't occupy nodes after we clear them, and we never force the workers to work for us, so we don't break this rule.

 

geneva protocol 1: 

>article 35: use of weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering as well as means of warfare that cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment are prohibited

this is where it gets juicy.... and simple. oberon has the ability to irradiate the ground, ember burns large chunks of the environment, both volt AND gyre electrocute targets, garuda tears the enemies apart and impales them, we break every single part of this article. 

>article 43 and 44: mercinary and guerrilla forces cannot conceal their allegiance, they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.

technically, we don't wear a specific uniform, but the warframes are quite specific in their appearance so they are easily recognizable as "not your own forces".... however, this article DOES get broken during invasion missions, where it is unclear what our allegiance is (corpus or grineer) until we start attacking one side. 

>article 51 and 54: outlaws indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations and the destruction of materials needed for survival.

we do indiscriminately attack civilians in the shipyard, but we do not destroy any materials needed for survival as far as i'm aware. 

>articles 56 and 53: dams, dykes and nuclear power stations may not be attacked, nor can cultural objects and places of worship.

while the reactors in the ship sabotage mission type aren't stated to be nuclear, they would fall under this for the same reason as nuclear plants: they cause massive fallout and damage to the surroundings when destroyed, so i'd confidently say we've committed this war crime. 

>article 77: recruitment of children under the age of 15 is forbidden. 

damnit ballas. 

>article 85: it's a war crime to use a protective emblem to deceive opposing forces, or use other forms of treachery

this one.... well, we don't use any protective emblems as neither the corpus nor grineer have any. so we can't commit this crime. 

 

geneva protocol 2:

i'll be pretty short about this one too: this protocol extends the geneva convention to civil wars and other non-international high-intensity conflicts (it doesn't apply to riots, demonstrations and isolated acts of violence though). 

we don't do anything to do with civil wars so this entire protocol doesn't have anything we can break in the game.

 

 geneva protocol 3:

this simply recognizes a fourth symbol as a distinctive emblem, a red diamond (Which works the same as the red cross, red crescent and red shield of david), it is meant to be used when the other emblems could be perceived as having religious, cultural or political connotations. 

 

 

 

so in conclusion, we... don't really commit *that* many war crimes? we mostly break protocol 1 article 35 on a regular basis. 

 

 

 

 

[TeaHands]

Does the Geneva Convention count if it was done in space or on another planet? 

If not, no crimes committed here If you just use your Braton and nothing else while on Earth. Ez Pz I'm a good guy now 😎

[CapinPotato9711]

hmmm, good question: 

 

so far ive counted articles

5 : Im no expert, but im fairly certian decintigrating and reincorperating captives is fairly inhumane, not to mention methods of interigation.

36-37: asuming tyle regor is, by some standered, a medical operative, attacking them in any way is a war crime. 

22: following the art 36 assumption, tyle regors facilitys would be classifyed as medical ships, so by attacking them, your commiting a warcrime

13-14-16: just by sideing with red veil, your commiting this warcrime. infact, wouldent the realeys facilitating this act count as a warcrime of sorts?

50, 54: never seen a prison or holding cell in warframe that matches this articles standereds. this is a system wide warcrime

109-110: its unlikely a greneir or corpus POW would in any case be reterned home

35: seemingly evrything tenno do causes prolonged suffering to vertually all enemys, and many of these would have destroyed any environment several times over

53,56: weve seen in many sabotage missions that each generator will expload with enough force to wipe out a large area, and asuming corpus generators are more advance versions of feildrons, we can say that all corpus generators are nucleor fussion reactors.so by compleating a sabotage mission, your commiting a war crime

also, because each faction effectivly warship there leaders, some tilesets dedicated to these leaders (eg, kuva fortress, every corpus capital ship), they are by some means a place of worship. so thats two in one.

 

and finally-   article 77, recruiting children under 15 into the armed forces.....

this goes without saying

 

 

and that is what I could sumerise for warframe warcrimes.... there are definatly some ive missed, but some I felt there was too litle information in game to go of.

 

some warcrimes only applie to certian groups, usually non milatery. it wouldent make sence to spare someone who is holding armes at you even if they are sick. otherwise, if someone was shot and survived, they would still be allowed to harm others,but not receive harm in turn. i supose there may be clarification some were, this is just my thoughts.

evrything ive put here ive tried my best to think through, again, its all based on opinion.

Edited October 5, 2023 by CapinPotato9711

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

10 hours ago, SDGDen said:

.

 

first geneva convention:

>article 12: the wounded and sick shall not be murdered, exterminated or subjected to torture or biological experiments. 

since the grineer are suffering from clone rot, we could consider them sick i guess? but generally "the wounded and sick" means those too wounded or sick to be a combatant. considering that we only deal with neutral/hostile non-combatants on the grineer shipyard tileset (there are neutral grineer workers there) i don't think we can commit this warcrime? 

>article 15: the wounded and sick shall be protected against pillage and ill treatment

we can't really do this one either, again because we don't face any combatants that are too sick or injured for combat. 

 

I mean we've seen red veil torture prisoners and stuff (who probably are injured) and we torture capture targets after blasting them in the head with a shotgun and cutting them with katanas (not to mention we steal stuff while doing so).

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

11 hours ago, SDGDen said:

 

>article 40: civilians cannot be forced to do military-related work for an occupying force

we don't occupy nodes after we clear them, and we never force the workers to work for us, so we don't break this rule.

 

 

Technically we mind control enemies (which again could extend to your shipyard example). 

We also technically just hire random people from Fortuna to function as our underpaid (space) ship personnel, and I'd say that we occupy Fortuna against the Corpus's will.

Edited October 5, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Sporthand]

15 hours ago, SDGDen said:

it's been meme'd quite a bit, the tenno commit various warcrimes, just look at saryn or ember. but now the question remains: just HOW many different warcrimes can we commit? I was bored, so i decided to find out. 

 

to find this out, i've found a summary of the geneva convention and it's additional protocols, written by the american red cross in 2011. In this post i will be going through the entire document and trying to find a way to commit the crimes listed in warframe. 

i'll be skipping over *some* crimes as they are inappropriate for discussion on the forum, the document i have is not listing the articles in order (instead categorizing them by type of law) so i will not be listing them in order either. some articles (such as article 12: wounded and sick shall be respected and protected without discrimination) don't contain any war crimes and will thus also be skipped.

 

first geneva convention:

>article 12: the wounded and sick shall not be murdered, exterminated or subjected to torture or biological experiments. 

since the grineer are suffering from clone rot, we could consider them sick i guess? but generally "the wounded and sick" means those too wounded or sick to be a combatant. considering that we only deal with neutral/hostile non-combatants on the grineer shipyard tileset (there are neutral grineer workers there) i don't think we can commit this warcrime? 

>article 15: the wounded and sick shall be protected against pillage and ill treatment

we can't really do this one either, again because we don't face any combatants that are too sick or injured for combat. 

>article 15 and 16: all parties in a conflict must search for and collect the wounded and sick, especially after a battle, and provide information concerning them to the red cross

we don't do this, at all. we just leave a mass of bodies that are *probably* dead behind us. as such, we do commit this war crime.

second geneva convention:

>articles 12 and 18: all parties in battle take all possible measures to search for, collect and care for wounded, sick and shipwrecked. shipwrecked refers to anyone adrift for any reason, including those forced to land at sea or to parachute from a damaged aircraft

again, we don't do this, thus committing this war crime. 

>article 21: neutral vessels can be asked to take care of wounded, sick and shipwrecked. if they agree to help they cannot be captured as long as they remain neutral. 

we don't commit this crime, since we never see any neutral vessels so we have no opportunity to capture or attack them. 

>article 22: hospital ships cannot be used for military purpose and cannot be captured or attacked

hospital ships don't exist in warframe, so we can't commit this war crime. 

third geneva convention:

i'll be very short about this one: the entire third geneva convention revolves around the treatment of prisoners of war, we never take any prisoners of war so we cannot commit any war crimes in this convention. 

fourth geneva convention: 

this entire convention is about the protection of civilians, for this convention we'll consider the workers on the grineer shipyard "civilians". 

>article 13 and 32: civilians are protected from murder, torture and brutality. 

we break this whenever we go to the shipyard, considering that we frequently murder the workers on accident in the most brutal of ways. 

>article 14: hospital and safety zones must be established for civilians

we don't make any of these, so again, war crime. 

>article 40: civilians cannot be forced to do military-related work for an occupying force

we don't occupy nodes after we clear them, and we never force the workers to work for us, so we don't break this rule.

 

geneva protocol 1: 

>article 35: use of weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering as well as means of warfare that cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment are prohibited

this is where it gets juicy.... and simple. oberon has the ability to irradiate the ground, ember burns large chunks of the environment, both volt AND gyre electrocute targets, garuda tears the enemies apart and impales them, we break every single part of this article. 

>article 43 and 44: mercinary and guerrilla forces cannot conceal their allegiance, they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.

technically, we don't wear a specific uniform, but the warframes are quite specific in their appearance so they are easily recognizable as "not your own forces".... however, this article DOES get broken during invasion missions, where it is unclear what our allegiance is (corpus or grineer) until we start attacking one side. 

>article 51 and 54: outlaws indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations and the destruction of materials needed for survival.

we do indiscriminately attack civilians in the shipyard, but we do not destroy any materials needed for survival as far as i'm aware. 

>articles 56 and 53: dams, dykes and nuclear power stations may not be attacked, nor can cultural objects and places of worship.

while the reactors in the ship sabotage mission type aren't stated to be nuclear, they would fall under this for the same reason as nuclear plants: they cause massive fallout and damage to the surroundings when destroyed, so i'd confidently say we've committed this war crime. 

>article 77: recruitment of children under the age of 15 is forbidden. 

damnit ballas. 

>article 85: it's a war crime to use a protective emblem to deceive opposing forces, or use other forms of treachery

this one.... well, we don't use any protective emblems as neither the corpus nor grineer have any. so we can't commit this crime. 

 

geneva protocol 2:

i'll be pretty short about this one too: this protocol extends the geneva convention to civil wars and other non-international high-intensity conflicts (it doesn't apply to riots, demonstrations and isolated acts of violence though). 

we don't do anything to do with civil wars so this entire protocol doesn't have anything we can break in the game.

 

 geneva protocol 3:

this simply recognizes a fourth symbol as a distinctive emblem, a red diamond (Which works the same as the red cross, red crescent and red shield of david), it is meant to be used when the other emblems could be perceived as having religious, cultural or political connotations. 

 

 

 

so in conclusion, we... don't really commit *that* many war crimes? we mostly break protocol 1 article 35 on a regular basis. 

 

 

 

 

I think there is no Geneva Convention. This expression may be relevant to this movie scene!

Bird: Tennos

Grineer and Corpus: Prisoners

[(PSN)robotwars7]

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

since the grineer are suffering from clone rot, we could consider them sick i guess? but generally "the wounded and sick" means those too wounded or sick to be a combatant. considering that we only deal with neutral/hostile non-combatants on the grineer shipyard tileset (there are neutral grineer workers there) i don't think we can commit this warcrime? 

the workers will sometimes attack if they see you: many times I've been n ceres and the occasional Drudge worker mixes in with the usual trash mobs, but IMO they chose to actively become a combatant, so it's totally justified IMO; if you come at me with a power saw, I WILL shoot you, simple as.

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

article 35: use of weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering as well as means of warfare that cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment are prohibited

pretty much every warframe and a large portion of our weapons all break this rule: use of incendiary weapons is forbidden, but we have plenty of those and can mod specifically for it. same applies with Bioweapons, which would be Saryn, Lavos, infested weapons, anything modded for toxin etc.

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

technically, we don't wear a specific uniform, but the warframes are quite specific in their appearance so they are easily recognizable as "not your own forces".... however, this article DOES get broken during invasion missions, where it is unclear what our allegiance is (corpus or grineer) until we start attacking one side. 

you say that, but I'd have thought Lotus would contact a representative/commander of Grineer/Corpus forces, and told them they can expect Tenno reinforcements ahead of time. I wouldn't mind there being a representative who talks to us in the mission instead of lotus, IMO it'd feel more immersive workign for the grineer to be getting yelled at by a grizzled clone with years of combat under his belt, or in the case of the corpus, they'd treat it all as part of business, calling it the "liquidization of enemy assets" etc.

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

>article 51 and 54: outlaws indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations and the destruction of materials needed for survival.

we do indiscriminately attack civilians in the shipyard, but we do not destroy any materials needed for survival as far as i'm aware. 

children on Ceres could've eaten those Orokin Cells, you know!

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

articles 56 and 53: dams, dykes and nuclear power stations may not be attacked, nor can cultural objects and places of worship.

I'm guessing stealing Formorian cores is probably an offence too, and we wreck Narmer places of worship every archon hunt. same could also apply to Corpus when we blow up their ships, since there are places where they worship Parvos and Offer Granum Crowns.

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

>article 77: recruitment of children under the age of 15 is forbidden. 

damnit ballas. 

by "recruitment", you mean "coerced"; Ballas made it quite clear that he wasn't just gonna leave the Tenno kids be, but hey, he can get a thread all his own listing his many sins. 

On 2023-10-05 at 11:58 AM, SDGDen said:

>article 85: it's a war crime to use a protective emblem to deceive opposing forces, or use other forms of treachery

"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu.

theoretically, you could use a Graxx/Corpra skin to sneak on board a ship, and blend in quite well, we just don't have that kind of mechanic in game.

anyway, even if there was an in-universe equivalent of the GC, pretty sure the Grineer don't care, the Corpus would likely bribe prosecutors to look the other way, and the infested have no comprehension of human laws anyhow. the only ones who even CAN follow these laws are us, and yeah, sorry, Viral ignis go BRRRRTTTTT!

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

Use of biological, chemical, and nuclear weaponry.  We do all of that and the Grineer definitely do.

Not sure the the Solaris on Corpus ships are being legally detained.