Abyss of Dagath: Hotfix 34.0.6

[IcarusRTS]

23 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Quoting for emphasis, as the only true solution is the one that doesn't just shift the pain from one group of players to another group (like what Icarus seems hell-bent on doing).

Except I am not. There are tools already given to the player that allows for good energy economy. Nourish, Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Emergence Dissipate, Equilibrium when combined with consistent health orb sources etc. Eximus spawn rate being reduced the less players you have in the squad for SP wouldn't change much, it would be just another problem for the players to adapt accordingly using the tools we have.

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

Except I am not. There are tools already given to the player that allows for good energy economy. Nourish, Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Emergence Dissipate, Equilibrium when combined with consistent health orb sources etc. Eximus spawn rate being reduced the less players you have in the squad for SP wouldn't change much, it would be just another problem for the players to adapt accordingly using the tools we have.

The only reason SP is fun is because of the enemy density, and all the things that such enemy density allows. There's a reason PC players dislike getting console hosts, and it has nothing to do with "hurrdurr PC master race". You come across as someone who can't handle SP, so want it trivialized so you can "hang with the cool kids" as it were.

[IcarusRTS]

32 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The only reason SP is fun is because of the enemy density, and all the things that such enemy density allows. There's a reason PC players dislike getting console hosts, and it has nothing to do with "hurrdurr PC master race". You come across as someone who can't handle SP, so want it trivialized so you can "hang with the cool kids" as it were.

There is a difference between making eximus appear less in bulk the less players are in the squad versus making enemy spawn rate in general be affected by player amount in SP.  Now its clear that you misread what I suggested. And unfortunately for you, I have done two levelcap runs in SP Circuit during this account's lifetime and looking for foward to the next one. First with Zephyr (with Cinta) and then with Vauban (with Opticor Vandal) respectively,. What I suggest basically makes it what eximus rework originally presented as for SP, mini-bosses that appear in way less numbers compared to how many times they appear in Steel Path solo.

And unfortunately for you, DE doesn't really pick sides regarding what they wanna cater to. Sometimes they do things that cater to engaging gameplay like Mercy Kills. Sometimes they cater to trivalizing stuff like how they buffed Mesmer Skin after Eximus Rework. Making eximus spawns consider player amount is best of both worlds if DE really wants to nerf every single CC that unintentionally affects Overguard. People that just wanna have easy time with the game through trivalizing and players who wanna enjoy some good gameplay are both happy.

You can only blame how Eximus Rework was initially advertised. Though making spawn rates in SP be affected by player amount would make Warframe a more coop based game for people that have reached that point, as Warframe was advertised was a coop game long time ago. Right now, most content can be done Solo and only a few modes or loot farms requiring cooperation to achieve maximum efficency regarding either farming, doing the mission's objective or achieving both.

1 hour ago, robertobear said:

I was thinking about responding about this point, and the fact you mentioned it further encouraged me to do so. Why not just revert the general spawn rate to that of star chart instead of specifically eximi? It would allow more builds in solo play due to the generally reduced threats and easier non-AOE clears, and the only cost would be the overall reduction of resources.(which as you said, could be offset by the usage of more resource generation anyways). This change feels rather arbitrary, or at the very least a band-aid to a much greater issue(as mentioned before). Personally I hate the overall reduced spawn rate in star chart as well, but it's for similarly selfish reasoning that's been mentioned already.(at least I can accept the reasoning that star chart is generally made for low level players. most people actively doing steel path have the resources to build for it)

My response to this is same as the last parargraph from the point where I mention its possible upsides. Then again its up to the playerbase in general to decide whether or not that would be a good change.

1 hour ago, robertobear said:

Which kind of brings me to my point. I don't think CC should such an essential form of survivability for warframes in the first place. It has a similar problem with immunity mechanics in that makes gameplay particularly flat. this is especially the case for one button hard CC frames like ones you mention.(honestly I kind of hate hard CC in general with how easy it is to have functionally infinite energy, but the concept of resource creep is it's own subject). Saying this as a person who enjoys more generalist frames(including hydroid, which still leans heavily into the CC frame aspect instead), the difference between 10 normal enemies and 1 eximi, and 10 CC'd enemies and one eximi is huge, and that still applies when scaled up. Hydroid can generally health tank eximi thanks to his high armor potiential with Plunder.(until scaling of endless missions apply at least). If a frame can't survive eximi because they rely on CC too much, that sounds more like the frame has a generally outdated kit then CC being too weak.(insert tangent about "it's not that CC is weak, it's that damage is too strong" here). Ironically old warframes slowly getting reworks to be relevant to the current meta seems more likely then either solution mentioned, considering it's already happening to a degree.(for the record I'd also prefer a rework of how CC and CC immunity works overall)

Here is the thing though, there are hard CC that still affects Eximus, whether its intentional or unintentional. In Limbo's case Stasis still freezes up to 300 enemy weapon fire objects which is an intentional mechanic. Meanwhile Breach Surge and Muzzle Flash blind eximuses while Radial Blind and Desiccation don't. A frame being unable to survive eximus is basically impossible due to most frames having either shield gate, overguard gate or both, even immunity frames being a possible part  of it (Iron Skin as an example). Its more so that DE again doesn't really pick sides regarding what to buff or nerf, trivalization or active gameplay. Making eximus spawn rates in SP consider player amount would make it so that frames that rely on mix of CC to shut down trash mobs to make it easier to shut down eximus while spamming immunity frames to stay alive until the eximus is dead have more breathing room.

Edited November 1, 2023 by IcarusRTS

[Mystic_Ervo]

En 30/10/2023 a las 20:04, [DE]Megan dijo:

Fixed Air Support Charges appearing in the Foundry during Vor’s Prize. 

This also happens with the Archwing Launcher and the archwing segment

[robertobear]

 

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

There is a difference between making eximus appear less in bulk the less players are in the squad versus making enemy spawn rate in general be affected by player amount in SP. What I suggest basically makes it what eximus rework originally presented as for SP, mini-bosses that appear in way less numbers compared to how many times they appear in Steel Path solo.

 

Personally the only difference I see is that eximi are generally more threatening then standard enemies, and they're immune to CC. If the intention is that eximi are suppose to be relatively rare "mini-bosses", then I feel like they've failed on both ends. Few eximi types meaningfully change how I play the game on an individual basis, and even the few that do are from a variant of "prioritize annoying enemy", and "avoid deadly yet mostly simplistic to dodge AOE", and even then that sounds like a large amount of non-eximi heavy units(most notably the Nullifier).

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

Though making spawn rates in SP be affected by player amount would make Warframe a more coop based game for people that have reached that point, as Warframe was advertised was a coop game long time ago. Right now, most content can be done Solo and only a few modes or loot farms requiring cooperation to achieve maximum efficency regarding either farming, doing the mission's objective or achieving both.

People that just wanna have easy time with the game through trivalizing and players who wanna enjoy some good gameplay are both happy.

A frame being unable to survive eximus is basically impossible due to most frames having either shield gate, overguard gate or both, even immunity frames being a possible part  of it (Iron Skin as an example) Making eximus spawn rates in SP consider player amount would make it so that frames that rely on mix of CC to shut down trash mobs to make it easier to shut down eximus while spamming immunity frames to stay alive until the eximus is dead have more breathing room.

..It doesn't though. People who like the current amount of eximi, but play solo have no option to play with the new eximi count.(unless we get more game modes where eximus strongholds were the norm) "just build around it" is an argument that applies to survivability, and not just resource generation. If the intention is to make solo easier because it doesn't have the synergy co-op does, then the reduction of general spawn rate still apples. There are other forms of gameplay that scale better or worse based on enemy count, and generally the only downside is resource gain.

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

Here is the thing though, there are hard CC that still affects Eximus, whether its intentional or unintentional. In Limbo's case Stasis still freezes up to 300 enemy weapon fire objects which is an intentional mechanic. Meanwhile Breach Surge and Muzzle Flash blind eximuses while Radial Blind and Desiccation don't. 

I'm assuming we both agree inconsistency is bad. We also agree that DE is more likely to remove said inconsistencies then add additional exceptions. This doesn't really lean for or against any point mentioned here.

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

And unfortunately for you, DE doesn't really pick sides regarding what they wanna cater to. Sometimes they do things that cater to engaging gameplay like Mercy Kills. Sometimes they cater to trivalizing stuff like how they buffed Mesmer Skin after Eximus Rework. 

Then again its up to the playerbase in general to decide whether or not that would be a good change.

Its more so that DE again doesn't really pick sides regarding what to buff or nerf, trivalization or active gameplay. 

This is why I dislike focusing on "The likelyhood of a specific change happening" aspect of things. At the end of the day, we're all a bunch of ants arguing to the greater colony on what should be done next, and praying that the monarchs actually listens to at least a few the points made if our collective voices are loud enough. I genuinely enjoying debating specific aspects of an argument(to put emphasis on it, including this one. I'm not against you on any personal level), and I don't even mind talking about the the likelyhood of DE actually implementing it to an extent, but reducing things down to "DE won't change things because they don't listen to us" doesn't meaningfully add to the conversation.

3 hours ago, Hexerin said:

There's a reason PC players dislike getting console hosts, and it has nothing to do with "hurrdurr PC master race". You come across as someone who can't handle SP, so want it trivialized so you can "hang with the cool kids" as it were.

2 hours ago, IcarusRTS said:

Now its clear that you misread what I suggested. And unfortunately for you, I have done two levelcap runs in SP Circuit during this account's lifetime and looking for foward to the next one. First with Zephyr (with Cinta) and then with Vauban (with Opticor Vandal) respectively,.

Can we please stop insulting each other and gatekeeping who can argue about a point? It's not alwasy a case of "game too hard, I want easier", Sometimes players want use more niche and/or weaker items, or even just generally don't want the stress of a high-difficulty area; and that's honestly fine. I also don't like that there's no consistent middle ground between star chart(brainlessly easy with a decent kit) and steel path. (painfully difficult without end-game kits). That being said, I don't think nerfing steel path is the solution to that.(Also, the whole "hang with the cool kits" bit doesn't even make sense when this topic is exclusive to solo play)

Edited November 1, 2023 by robertobear
Added a few to the quotes. Why is that such a pain to do?

[Emwue]

2 hours ago, robertobear said:

People who like the current amount of eximi, but play solo have no option to play with the new eximi count.

I mean, since this is about solo and solo means there is only one player who is the host and host decides the spawn rates, that is simple to solve actually - all DE would need to do is to introduce difficulty level for solo play, so that players who want reduced eximi spawns in SP would set their difficulty to easy and those who do not set it to hard and both groups are happy.

[robertobear]

Just now, Emwue said:

I mean, since this is about solo and solo means there is only one player who is the host and host decides the spawn rates, that is simple to solve actually - all DE would need to do is to introduce difficulty level for solo play, so that players who want reduced eximi spawns in SP would set their difficulty to easy and those who do not set it to hard and both groups are happy.

I'd...Unironically be for this. Solo play, and even to some degree invite and friends only has much more breathing room in modifying the game. I'd still prefer that specifically public play alwasy caps enemies out, but considering most public matchmaking caps out pretty quickly anyways I probably wouldn't tell the difference. The only real nitpick i'd have to make is that players would have make a distinction what "sub difficulty" of SP(or star chart. like this for star chart too) they're playing, but honestly that's just more tribalism stuff anyways.

[Hexerin]

6 hours ago, Emwue said:

I mean, since this is about solo and solo means there is only one player who is the host and host decides the spawn rates, that is simple to solve actually - all DE would need to do is to introduce difficulty level for solo play, so that players who want reduced eximi spawns in SP would set their difficulty to easy and those who do not set it to hard and both groups are happy.

We really don't need even further fragmenting of the playerbase. SP is already almost completely dead except for the five incursions (which are once per day missions, the nodes themselves are as dead as everything else). Adding a middle difficulty layer to the star chart would just kill SP off completely.

If this solution is ultimately what would be added, the boosted SP loot rates should be disabled for it. It's easy mode after all, you shouldn't be rewarded for that.

[Emwue]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

We really don't need even further fragmenting of the playerbase.

Well, since that would only apply to solo players and solo players are already fully fragmented off of playerbase in a way, it's not really a big issue, tbh. But yeah, adding difficulty level to multiplayer would be nightmare, one can easily imagine the type of posts that would permeate Feedback section of forum, should a more hardcore player wanting "hard" setting end up constantly matchmaking with "easy" hosts, not to mention you could easily grief people with "easy" mode on already low-spawn rate systems(switch, possibly iOS soon?) in fissures, which is why any difficulty setting should only apply to solo play and never to multiplayer, that's for sure.

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

SP loot rates should be disabled for it

Not sure if disabled(after all, the enhanced spawn rates of normal units and SP stat modifiers would still apply) but definitely adjusted so they are not as bad as normal star chart but not as good as current SP star chart, obviously. :)

[vincent9956]

When will propa falloff damage get fixed? 

Also will we/ when will we see operator and nechramech benefitting from total eclipse, roar etc just like companions do ?

 

[T0xXxin]

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