The hidden elephants in the room

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

Hello I don’t post here very often but I have some concerns I want to raise awareness of regarding Warframe balance. 
 

First of all I understand many people have favourite frames whether it’s for utility, damage or fashion and they may be severely opposed to them being changed in any way, whether it’s a nerf or results in a net buff. 
 

So my first gripe here is Revenant. This frame was given a frankly absurd buff in response to the (in my opinion) poorly thought through eximus rework. Unlike every other frame, Revenant gains TOTAL immortality with a click of a single button. The period of this immortality scales off of strength rather than duration which further feeds into what every Revenant is built for - power strength to gain enormous damage buffs from the Helminth system.

 

Tell me why I should play Rhino when I have to mess around with Magus Anomaly, Iron Clad Charge and Arcane Tanker. Why should I bother with that when I could press 2 with Revenant and get the same results? It’s not like Revenant can’t use Roar either. So why bother playing Rhino? Why use Nezha when I’d have to literally spam the ability? This is totally inconvenient in energy drain disruption conduits. Meanwhile Revenant presses 2 and can go make a sandwich or drink coffee for 30 odd seconds with absolutely no consequences. The only way he will ever die is if Violence manages to nully him in a level 3000+ energy drain conduit.
 

Then other frames get nerfed. Why bother nerfing frames for being too strong/“not working as intended” when this is allowed to exist? There is no reason to “balance” other frames as long as Revenant completely destroys any semblance of the idea existing in the game. 
 

 

 

Next we have Ash. Ash. The “bad” frame who can make literally any weapon capable of proccing slash into a one hit level cap killer. Who also has the benefit of pseudo immortality through his invisibility. 
 

Ash, the only frame who can make use of arcane trickery consistently. Ash, the only frame who can proc bleed on Misery’s Shadows of Violence and Angst. Ash, the only frame who was capable of making Marked For Death strong. Ash, the only frame who has multiplicative condition overload on his recently buffed pseudo exalted 4 that easily hits damage cap numbers - making Khora’s infamous whip look like an MK1 Bo. Ash, the only frame whose passive is a separate multiplier to the most sought after damage over time in the game by a huge margin. Top it off the augment for his smoke screen gives extra crit. Really? REALLY? I don’t think there’s anything more to say there.  
 

Is this all not a little ridiculous to have in one frame? I could understand him being insanely powerful if he was a glass cannon but he’s not. He can remain invisible indefinitely. There is a reason he is used in almost every level cap run, especially solo. His only competitor is Revenant who I have already covered. 
 

Then we have Volt. This guy is really cool and can be fun to play. But his combination of damage and utility is simply too much. He’s meta for eidolons to the point where people will get angry if you don’t want to play him in a squad. He’s meta for profit taker. He’s meta for elite sanctuary onslaught. He’s meta for plague star. He’s meta for relic running. 
 

Let’s analyse why.

 

1) his shields are a massive critical damage multiplier and buff operators. 

2) his speed gives him the most sought after utility in the game for most content. 

3) he can slot eclipse and basically become a better Mirage/Chroma. Top it all off his base stats are quite tanky and he can easily survive most boss fights with very little investment, all you need is to Helminth on Eclipse and you’ve got the ultimate boss killing speed runner who can also zoom through any other content you happen to encounter. People don’t even bother using his shields to dps, not even before the focus school rework with the Zariman update. 
 

So all this being said I would like to explain the root causes of the problems at hand. 
 

For Revenant I am not sure how to resolve his Mesmer Skin being too strong but ultimately it’s because DE decided that eximus needed to get completely immune to crowd control. That’s THE root cause of what he has become. 
 

Ash needs a total nerf. Half the problem here is invisibility being too strong on any frame. But the fact he can use it and have access to all that damage is unreasonable. His 4 needs to be toned down and it may be that DE need to reconsider the wisdom of allowing infinitely scaling tanks and invisible frames to have access to multiplicative damage buffs like Roar and Eclipsr or Xata. Which feeds into Volt. 
 

Volt was meta for a lot of stuff for a long time but when he became capable of using eclipse he more or less made every other frame redundant for most content. The problem i identity here is once again primarily with Helminth. Also the fact he is the only way to buff operators. Either allow other frames/companions to buff them or remove his privilege, he’s got enough utility and damage as it is already. 
 

My apologies for the huge wall of text but I feel it needed to be said. Now before people say “but then everyone will use Wisp (or insert other invisible frame)” I know there will be a mass emigration to the next best  thing but that’ll still be an improvement because these next best things are vastly less OP than the current meta, hence why they are less popular at the moment. 
 

I hope you all have a great day and have good RNG :P

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

Ash needs a total nerf. Half the problem here is invisibility being too strong on any frame.

That seems to be an invisibility issue

If it worked like oblivions Chameleon then it fixes both invisibility and strength on invis frames

 

The rest is accurate especially when choosing certain frames can absolutely be a detriment at times

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

That seems to be an invisibility issue

If it worked like oblivions Chameleon then it fixes both invisibility and strength on invis frames

 

The rest is accurate especially when choosing certain frames can absolutely be a detriment at times

Absolutely. Previously invisibility wasn’t so unbalanced because the frames didn’t have much else going for them. But now there is never a reason to not use one of the three I covered in my original post. I didn’t even mention there’s an enormous stealth damage multiplier on melee attacks you get for being invisible. 
 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels this way. Maybe if we can get enough awareness DE will investigate the matter and do something about it. 
 

I am MR30, I’ve done level cap with several different frames, I did over 2000 eidolon hunts pre Zariman and I was a decent profit taker runner as well, if not world class. I mostly ran out glass cannon DPS frames but they are literally useless because Revenant and invisible frames can often do as much or more damage without any of the risks attached. Ash just happens to be by far the worst offender among the invisible frames. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 4 horas, (XBOX)Sariyajin v dijo:

Next we have Ash. Ash. The “bad” frame who can make literally any weapon capable of proccing slash into a one hit level cap killer. Who also has the benefit of pseudo immortality through his invisibility. 
 

Ash, the only frame who can make use of arcane trickery consistently. Ash, the only frame who can proc bleed on Misery’s Shadows of Violence and Angst. Ash, the only frame who was capable of making Marked For Death strong. Ash, the only frame who has multiplicative condition overload on his recently buffed pseudo exalted 4 that easily hits damage cap numbers - making Khora’s infamous whip look like an MK1 Bo. Ash, the only frame whose passive is a separate multiplier to the most sought after damage over time in the game by a huge margin. Top it off the augment for his smoke screen gives extra crit. Really? REALLY? I don’t think there’s anything more to say there.  

Of all the invisibility abilities, Ash's has the shortest duration, and there are other warframes that can remain invisible for longer and with fewer drawbacks. The only arcane tricks he can use are two and one of them is invisibility, which he already has, and it would not be advisable to replace it with helminth when his 1 and 3 are worse. The marked for death thing is no longer the same as before, they nerfed it. It can certainly reach very high numbers with its 4, but to use it you have to manually mark each enemy and attack them one by one and if you want to use it again you have to wait for all the marked enemies to die, if you are in a squad, most of them will be killed by your companions. His passive is fine, it is very good but it is not exaggerated. The increase has a fixed critical chance, if it were modifiable or if it were part of the ability it would be exaggerated.

hace 5 horas, (XBOX)Sariyajin v dijo:

Then we have Volt. This guy is really cool and can be fun to play. But his combination of damage and utility is simply too much. He’s meta for eidolons to the point where people will get angry if you don’t want to play him in a squad. He’s meta for profit taker. He’s meta for elite sanctuary onslaught. He’s meta for plague star. He’s meta for relic running. 
 

Let’s analyse why.

 

1) his shields are a massive critical damage multiplier and buff operators. 

2) his speed gives him the most sought after utility in the game for most content. 

3) he can slot eclipse and basically become a better Mirage/Chroma. Top it all off his base stats are quite tanky and he can easily survive most boss fights with very little investment, all you need is to Helminth on Eclipse and you’ve got the ultimate boss killing speed runner who can also zoom through any other content you happen to encounter. People don’t even bother using his shields to dps, not even before the focus school rework with the Zariman update. 

Volt is not as powerful as other warframes, its abilities do not have synergies with each other, it does not have DR, armor buff, health or energy regeneration (for shields it needs an augment), it strips armor and since its 4 it only does electricity damage not very good against armored enemies. What makes it so good is how incredibly convenient it is. 2- It's ironic, because many players find his speed improvement very annoying. 3- and chroma can be a better chroma if you give it roar, eclipse or nourish. The problem with testing a warframe using helminth is that any warframe can be absurdly strong, so I don't like excuses when someone defends a poor skill set with gloom, nourish, or roar.

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

53 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Of all the invisibility abilities, Ash's has the shortest duration, and there are other warframes that can remain invisible for longer and with fewer drawbacks. The only arcane tricks he can use are two and one of them is invisibility, which he already has, and it would not be advisable to replace it with helminth when his 1 and 3 are worse. The marked for death thing is no longer the same as before, they nerfed it. It can certainly reach very high numbers with its 4, but to use it you have to manually mark each enemy and attack them one by one and if you want to use it again you have to wait for all the marked enemies to die, if you are in a squad, most of them will be killed by your companions. His passive is fine, it is very good but it is not exaggerated. The increase has a fixed critical chance, if it were modifiable or if it were part of the ability it would be exaggerated.

Volt is not as powerful as other warframes, its abilities do not have synergies with each other, it does not have DR, armor buff, health or energy regeneration (for shields it needs an augment), it strips armor and since its 4 it only does electricity damage not very good against armored enemies. What makes it so good is how incredibly convenient it is. 2- It's ironic, because many players find his speed improvement very annoying. 3- and chroma can be a better chroma if you give it roar, eclipse or nourish. The problem with testing a warframe using helminth is that any warframe can be absurdly strong, so I don't like excuses when someone defends a poor skill set with gloom, nourish, or roar.

Ash having to target enemies makes the damage balanced? On that logic my Snipetron Vandal should one shot every enemy in the entire fake because it’s not an AoE weapon. 
 

watch any video of ash being played at high levels. He is invisible almost the entire time, if it’s about to run out the player ducks behind a wall while recasting it or uses rolling guard to cover the period of visibility. He is already modded for duration because of the huge energy cost on Roar which is a very popular subsume. He may not have the highest KPS in a survival but he can still scale all the way up to level cap effortlessly. If he wasn’t as broken as he is YouTube and Twitch wouldn’t be packed with weapon showcases with the same old Ash + Roar or Ash + Xata’s Whisper. 
 

DE have been throwing buffs at Ash for ages because his fans have never been satisfied since his press 4 nuke was nerfed all those years ago. It’s honestly hilarious. They buffed him around the time they nerfed Styanax which was absolutely disgraceful. It was a running joke with my friends. 
 

At this point he doesn’t even need his Shuriken anymore as Unairu exists. So that’s yet more power creep for him. 
 

I agree he’s not as obnoxious in a squad as pre nerf Wukong was but that doesn’t mean he isn’t unbalanced. Every time DE make a strong boss someone turns up with Ash or Revenant and 1 taps it with 0 damage taken which is exactly why Circuit exists. Rather than nerf those two they made an entire game mode locked behind randomised kit so people wouldn’t cheese it. Otherwise it would be the same as what happened with Archons.

 

as for Volt yes it’s true he’s not the most powerful out there but he’s got enough power to make him by far the most obvious choice for most things. See how many Volts were in plague star? Go in ESO you see tons of Volts. A Volt holds the record on profit taker. Volt was the ONLY frame anyone would tolerate in an eidolon squad for a damage dealing roll of any kind. Doesn’t that tell you that maybe his package is a little too complete? 
 

He Absolutely is a better Chroma/Mirage. He can zoom around the map with his Speed. Then he drops a shield to double his critical damage while blocking enemy fire in the process. While using Eclipse. Sure it’s a nerfed eclipse but the damage bonus is big enough for that to not matter especially when combined with his shields. Then there’s the Terrify armour strip nuke builds with his 4. Tons of different ways to make him meta for any game mode. Should any of that not be enough he has top tier shield gating and an augment for his 1 to get free electricity damage. 
 

See the primary issue here is Helminth abilities more than Volt himself. You can put eclipse on Chroma, he still will never be as useful as Volt. Not even Mirage herself will be picked over Volt. Source: I used to hunt eidolons a lot and had no end of criticism for not wanting to dps with Volt. 

It’s the same issue as tanks like Revenant getting the same huge damage buffs as glass cannons like Mirage. All the benefits without the disadvantages. If you don’t see it’s a problem then that’s fine, but an awful lot of us feel it has gone far too far and needs to be nerfed. 
 

here’s another example. Mirage can do even more damage than Wisp with a breach surge build. Nobody uses it. Why? Because Wisp has zero issues staying alive at levels where that kind of damage counts. I am not saying Wisp needs to be nerfed but it’s the same issue as Volt, Ash and Revenant dominating every bit of content DE releases. The difference is, they are 10x more overpowered relative to the other choices available. 

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

In essence I would like to see three things:

 

1) nerf Mesmer Skin to not be a brainless immortality. Make the player earn the immunity in some way or give it a cool-down. 
 

2) nerf/change invisibility to not be an alternative pseudo immortality alternative to Mesmer Skin. 
 

3) Stop already powerful frames from having access to top tier abilities like Roar and Xata’s Whisper. They already have plenty of reasons to be used without allowing them to invalidate alternative choices. Until this is done you’ll keep seeing Volts and tanks like Nezha cheesing every boss fight. Glass cannons should NOT be invalidated by tanks and frames with huge utility/convenience doing the same job just well as or sometimes even more effectively

Edited November 20, 2023 by (XBOX)Sariyajin v

[Traumtulpe]

So I have an Ash Bladestorm build, complete with the Innodem and Trickery and all. And I don't use it, like ever.

Yes it can probably kill level cap enemies (I *really* don't want to even try). But it's super inconvenient, and not any better than just using a weapon, frankly. Because yes, any weapon you'd bring to level cap will also oneshot those enemies.

Ash's passive has already been nerfed by the way (it was a shadow nerf, so I wouldn't blame you for not knowing).

Realistically, his passive and his invisiblity are everything the poor guy has. Shuriken does literally nothing unless you use an augment (and even then it's a single target armor strip that can't even reliably hit what you aim it at), and his teleport is pathetic.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 36 minutos, (XBOX)Sariyajin v dijo:

Ash having to target enemies makes the damage balanced? On that logic my Snipetron Vandal should one shot every enemy in the entire fake because it’s not an AoE weapon. 
 

watch any video of ash being played at high levels. He is invisible almost the entire time, if it’s about to run out the player ducks behind a wall while recasting it or uses rolling guard to cover the period of visibility. He is already modded for duration because of the huge energy cost on Roar which is a very popular subsume. He may not have the highest KPS in a survival but he can still scale all the way up to level cap effortlessly. If he wasn’t as broken as he is YouTube and Twitch wouldn’t be packed with weapon showcases with the same old Ash + Roar or Ash + Xata’s Whisper. 
 

DE have been throwing buffs at Ash for ages because his fans have never been satisfied since his press 4 nuke was nerfed all those years ago. It’s honestly hilarious. They buffed him around the time they nerfed Styanax which was absolutely disgraceful. It was a running joke with my friends. 
 

At this point he doesn’t even need his Shuriken anymore as Unairu exists. So that’s yet more power creep for him. 
 

I agree he’s not as obnoxious in a squad as pre nerf Wukong was but that doesn’t mean he isn’t unbalanced. Every time DE make a strong boss someone turns up with Ash or Revenant and 1 taps it with 0 damage taken which is exactly why Circuit exists. Rather than nerf those two they made an entire game mode locked behind randomised kit so people wouldn’t cheese it. Otherwise it would be the same as what happened with Archons.

 

as for Volt yes it’s true he’s not the most powerful out there but he’s got enough power to make him by far the most obvious choice for most things. See how many Volts were in plague star? Go in ESO you see tons of Volts. A Volt holds the record on profit taker. Volt was the ONLY frame anyone would tolerate in an eidolon squad for a damage dealing roll of any kind. Doesn’t that tell you that maybe his package is a little too complete? 
 

He Absolutely is a better Chroma/Mirage. He can zoom around the map with his Speed. Then he drops a shield to double his critical damage while blocking enemy fire in the process. While using Eclipse. Sure it’s a nerfed eclipse but the damage bonus is big enough for that to not matter especially when combined with his shields. Then there’s the Terrify armour strip nuke builds with his 4. Tons of different ways to make him meta for any game mode. Should any of that not be enough he has top tier shield gating and an augment for his 1 to get free electricity damage. 
 

See the primary issue here is Helminth abilities more than Volt himself. You can put eclipse on Chroma, he still will never be as useful as Volt. Not even Mirage herself will be picked over Volt. Source: I used to hunt eidolons a lot and had no end of criticism for not wanting to dps with Volt. 

It’s the same issue as tanks like Revenant getting the same huge damage buffs as glass cannons like Mirage. All the benefits without the disadvantages. If you don’t see it’s a problem then that’s fine, but an awful lot of us feel it has gone far too far and needs to be nerfed. 
 

here’s another example. Mirage can do even more damage than Wisp with a breach surge build. Nobody uses it. Why? Because Wisp has zero issues staying alive at levels where that kind of damage counts. I am not saying Wisp needs to be nerfed but it’s the same issue as Volt, Ash and Revenant dominating every bit of content DE releases. The difference is, they are 10x more overpowered relative to the other choices available. 

Volt and Ash will not receive any nerf; unless they give it an revision they won't change anything about Ash, he has 2 bad abilities and isn't used much, nor does it encourage any afk play. Neither does Volt, his abilities are not powerful, just convenient and as long as you don't encourage any AFK play you won't see any changes. Helminth doesn't prove anything when it comes to showing the usefulness of a warframe, it only shows how unbalanced that function is.

Edited November 20, 2023 by --Leyenda-yight6

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

It gets even worse, because the more damage these OP frames do, the more DE inflates enemy numbers and attenuation making it even worse for the less fortunate frames who don’t have top tier tanking skills or invisibility. 
 

There’s a reason you don’t see many rhinos. There’s a reason Nezha fell out of favour despite still offering a lot. There’s a reason chroma is pretty much only used as a fashion statement. He’s not even the main dps for profit taker anymore. People have a friend play him as a stat stick for extra credits. I don’t even like Chroma but I feel bad for all the people who would like to play him but feel like it’s a waste of time and forma. 

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So I have an Ash Bladestorm build, complete with the Innodem and Trickery and all. And I don't use it, like ever.

Yes it can probably kill level cap enemies (I *really* don't want to even try). But it's super inconvenient, and not any better than just using a weapon, frankly. Because yes, any weapon you'd bring to level cap will also oneshot those enemies.

Ash's passive has already been nerfed by the way (it was a shadow nerf, so I wouldn't blame you for not knowing).

Realistically, his passive and his invisiblity are everything the poor guy has. Shuriken does literally nothing unless you use an augment (and even then it's a single target armor strip that can't even reliably hit what you aim it at), and his teleport is pathetic.

I would be ok with Ash having QoL improvements but here’s the problem. You see a shield lancer eximus. Several million overguard. Can’t be stunned. Blocks all your attacks. Ash will press 4, hit the guy with 200 million bleed with his clones while slicing and dicing or leisurely sniping the fodder enemies around him. This frame literally does hundreds of millions of bleed all while invisible. That is unbalanced whichever way you look at it. 
 

by all means if a full rework to make him generally more enjoyable is a fair compensation then I’m all for it. But he’s the ultimate cheese for level cap runs, second only to Revenant for survivability and second to no one in terms of damage. He can use the Jat Kittag to resolve the AoE aspect of bladestorm too. 
 

People seem to miss my problem is with frames like Ash doing damage cap numbers while under no threat of dying, unlike proper glass cannons who still can’t match those damage numbers anyway. Ash is by far the worst offender for the reasons I already outlined. 

[Okaazkul]

Il y a 8 heures, (XBOX)Sariyajin v a dit :

Tell me why I should play Rhino when I have to mess around with Magus Anomaly, Iron Clad Charge and Arcane Tanker. Why should I bother with that when I could press 2 with Revenant and get the same results? It’s not like Revenant can’t use Roar either. So why bother playing Rhino? Why use Nezha when I’d have to literally spam the ability? This is totally inconvenient in energy drain disruption conduits. Meanwhile Revenant presses 2 and can go make a sandwich or drink coffee for 30 odd seconds with absolutely no consequences. The only way he will ever die is if Violence manages to nully him in a level 3000+ energy drain conduit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9oU28X74Q

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

by all means if a full rework to make him generally more enjoyable is a fair compensation then I’m all for it. But he’s the ultimate cheese for level cap runs, second only to Revenant for survivability and second to no one in terms of damage. He can use the Jat Kittag to resolve the AoE aspect of bladestorm too. 
 

People seem to miss my problem is with frames like Ash doing damage cap numbers while under no threat of dying, unlike proper glass cannons who still can’t match those damage numbers anyway. Ash is by far the worst offender for the reasons I already outlined.

Like I said, I don't even use his Bladestorm build, and I've been to level cap just using weapons. So I for one would be very happy if he got reworked, even if this meant Bladestorm would deal no damage at all.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding though - every frame can be invincible, and that is a good thing, because you *have* to be invincible to go to level cap. Some use shield gating, some might require Protective Sling, but they all are invincible. And similarly all frames can oneshot level cap, using the right weapon.

You don't even mention some of the most aggregious Warframes, Octavia for example can afk her way to level cap, her invisibility and damage far surpass anything Ash can do. Or Garuda, for all the issues she has she can easily oneshot everything in a huge AoE, scaling into infinity - all while being pretty much invincible.

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

10 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Volt and Ash will not receive any nerf; unless they give it an overhaul they won't change anything about Ash, he has 2 bad abilities and isn't used much, nor does it encourage any afk play. Neither does Volt, his abilities are not powerful, just convenient and as long as you don't encourage any AFK play you won't see any changes. Helminth doesn't prove anything when it comes to showing the usefulness of a warframe, it only shows how unbalanced that function is.

You’re right about Helminth being unbalanced. Helminth Volt is the issue rather than normal Volt. It made already powerful and convenient frames even stronger. Already weak frames didn’t benefit much. 
 

As for Ash he may well be nerfed at some point. It only takes someone at DE to notice how frequently he’s used at sky high levels because nobody else aside from Revenant is effective there and they may decide to make changes. They’ve nerfed far less crazy things in the past.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

As for Ash he may well be nerfed at some point. It only takes someone at DE to notice how frequently he’s used at sky high levels because nobody else aside from Revenant is effective there

No, sorry but you have no clue what you're even talking about at this point. The people going to level cap with Ash don't do this because of Blade Storm - I would go insane if I had to kill enemies for several hours with that ability. And his passive is just a 25% damage bonus.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Like I said, I don't even use his Bladestorm build, and I've been to level cap just using weapons. So I for one would be very happy if he got reworked, even if this meant Bladestorm would deal no damage at all.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding though - every frame can be invincible, and that is a good thing, because you *have* to be invincible to go to level cap. Some use shield gating, some might require Protective Sling, but they all are invincible. And similarly all frames can oneshot level cap, using the right weapon.

You don't even mention some of the most aggregious Warframes, Octavia for example can afk her way to level cap, her invisibility and damage far surpass anything Ash can do. Or Garuda, for all the issues she has she can easily oneshot everything in a huge AoE, scaling into infinity - all while being pretty much invincible.

Indeed they can. Vazarin spam can give you immortality. The question is how much effort is involved. How easy is it to achieve. Rhino has to go to absurd lengths to get a decent iron skin. Nezha fell out of fashion the day Revenant got buffed. Revenant gets it at the press of a button. Ash and Loki also get it at the press of a button through invisibility. If I hadn’t made it clear already I think invisibility itself is too powerful and needs some kind of nerf or adjustment. 
 

yes Octavia can scale up to level cap. You gonna get carpal tunnel in the process though. Unless you run a macro. Yes her nuke scales. She’s also heavily restricted in terms of movement. All she can do is camp in one spot for her skills to be effective. Garuda is awkward to keep truly immune to damage. I’ve made tons of builds for her, I’m well aware of how her abilities work. 
 

it’s the effort involved that’s the issue, not being immortal itself. 

[Traumtulpe]

You might want to revisit your Garuda build, let me tell you I'd prefer her over Ash any day of the week if you told me to do a level cap run.

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, sorry but you have no clue what you're even talking about at this point. The people going to level cap with Ash don't do this because of Blade Storm - I would go insane if I had to kill enemies for several hours with that ability. And his passive is just a 25% damage bonus.

Like I already said, Ash can and will nuke eximus enemies that other frames will have significantly more trouble even landing a hit on. A single cast of his 4 deletes them. All from a safe range with ZERO risk of dying. It’s HIGHLY effective as a way to get rid of dangerous heavy units. You also conveniently ignored my original post’s comment about the fact he can proc bleed on Shadow of Violence, who’s supposed to be immune to everything except magnetic. That is either bugged or a special privilege he doesn’t deserve to have. It should be fixed. Doing so would be a nerf regardless of whether it was originally supposed to be there or not. 

[kerozen666]

I mean, to answer the question "why should i use another frame when X exist", it's simple, because the other frames do something that feels better to use. The Ash and Rev situation isn't problematic in normal play, other frames get to perferm as good as them. the problem only arise when you reach the point where the devs kinda don't want us to go. there isn't a point in going 3h into a survival, you don't get more reward for doing so, aside from the trace bonus for fissures. At that point, the solution would be to lower the level cap to something more frame can take on or put a hard cap on endless. Because the thing is that nerfing Rev or Ash would make them less interesting in normal play and you don't want that. and forget the idea of reworking every other frames, too muh effort for content only a few people will really take on

As for Volt, the issue is more player side, it's the fact you can mod it a certain way to bypass the intended way to play the game, skipping part of it to some degree

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

55 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

I mean, to answer the question "why should i use another frame when X exist", it's simple, because the other frames do something that feels better to use. The Ash and Rev situation isn't problematic in normal play, other frames get to perferm as good as them. the problem only arise when you reach the point where the devs kinda don't want us to go. there isn't a point in going 3h into a survival, you don't get more reward for doing so, aside from the trace bonus for fissures. At that point, the solution would be to lower the level cap to something more frame can take on or put a hard cap on endless. Because the thing is that nerfing Rev or Ash would make them less interesting in normal play and you don't want that. and forget the idea of reworking every other frames, too muh effort for content only a few people will really take on

As for Volt, the issue is more player side, it's the fact you can mod it a certain way to bypass the intended way to play the game, skipping part of it to some degree

That’s not even correct. Circuit scales VERY fast. The devs did that on purpose so we could enjoy stronger enemies. The same is true of that Zariman node. It’s only the old survival/defence that takes literally all day to scale up. And you can blame anything on the players.  Example, Wukong and the Zarr/Bramma. It had to be nerfed. It was in every lobby. People weren’t bothering to use anything else because it was far too convenient. DE didn’t sit and say Oh look players are abusing a mechanic, let’s leave them to it. They nerfed Wukong instead despite the outrage they knew was coming. And you remember what happened, no? DE got review bombed by angry players who were unhappy with the changes.  
 

Game balance exists for a reason and these frames invalidate any semblance of difficulty at the click of a button and invalidate all the others in the process. As I said those frames make every bit of content DE makes an utter joke. Having three frames be meta for every single thing in the game is bad for it in so many ways. People get bored and leave when there’s no variation or reason to try new things. 
 

 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 54 minutos, (XBOX)Sariyajin v dijo:

Example, Wukong and the Zarr/Bramma. It had to be nerfed. It was in every lobby. People weren’t bothering to use anything else because it was far too convenient. DE didn’t sit and say Oh look players are abusing a mechanic, let’s leave them to it. They nerfed Wukong instead despite the outrage they knew was coming. And you remember what happened, no? DE got review bombed by angry players who were unhappy with the changes.  

The reason the Celestial Twin was nerfed was because DE felt it incentivized AFK play, in the cases of explosive weapons it was because they felt they were too powerful and didn't have much risk, so they considered some way to get back to self-damage.

[kerozen666]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

That’s not even correct. Circuit scales VERY fast. The devs did that on purpose so we could enjoy stronger enemies. The same is true of that Zariman node. It’s only the old survival/defence that takes literally all day to scale up. And you can blame anything on the players.  Example, Wukong and the Zarr/Bramma. It had to be nerfed. It was in every lobby. People weren’t bothering to use anything else because it was far too convenient. DE didn’t sit and say Oh look players are abusing a mechanic, let’s leave them to it. They nerfed Wukong instead despite the outrage they knew was coming. And you remember what happened, no? DE got review bombed by angry players who were unhappy with the changes.  
 

Game balance exists for a reason and these frames invalidate any semblance of difficulty at the click of a button and invalidate all the others in the process. As I said those frames make every bit of content DE makes an utter joke. Having three frames be meta for every single thing in the game is bad for it in so many ways. People get bored and leave when there’s no variation or reason to try new things. 
 

 

Wukong and bramma  was an actual problem, Revenant and ash aren't. what made celestial twin and every other specters busted was that they could bypass ammo limitations. that's why that was nerfed. Rev and Ash are not in that situation. what makes them look busted is simply that the way their kit work just scale. Ash get good damage because he got a big punchy ability that guaranteed a bleed proc, but you forget that to do that he need to setup his hits, prime enemies, which just make his 4 no different than most top tier gun on armor stripped enemies. Revenant's "immortality" is something he has to constantly maintain, as it proc on any hit, so you have to constantly upkeep it, and you are also exposed when recasting it

you keep missing the forest for the trees. 

 

 

[VibingCat]

On 2023-11-20 at 1:41 AM, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

Tell me why I should play Rhino when I have to mess around with Magus Anomaly, Iron Clad Charge and Arcane Tanker

Rhino has the strongest damage buff in the game, also a great crowd control ability and a slot for the Helminth which can be Tharros Strike, Silence, Condemn or anything you like. Since he has shields, he can survive anything — except toxin — while doing more damage than Revenant. Just don't use those three things you listed, Iron Skin is only useful for its three seconds of invulnerability and overguard-gating.

On the other hand, Revenant doesn't have anything valuable besides Mesmer Skin and its augment.

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

Strongest buff is debatable. It’s only strongest on DoT. An eclipse in light does more damage. Xata is also doing more damage on specific weapons. And toxin is actually quite a problem. If you play against infested you’ll be spammed by disrupt or aura as killing your energy. Iron skin costs a lot to cast and the casting animation is slow. Condemn won’t save you in the face of a toxin conduit. Then there’s energy drain. Your entire scenario assumes you’re camping in a corner all day. If what you were saying was remotely relevant YouTube would be full of Rhinos doing level cap but it’s not. Nezha has the same thing btw. The damage absorb to stage. As I said before he lost popularity after Revenant got buffed. 
 

single cast: guaranteed 25-30 seconds of invulnerability is easy to achieve. It’s cheap, easy and convenient. Other frames have to be constantly micromanaged to get close to the same level of robustness. 

[(XBOX)Sariyajin v]

The facts speak for themselves. And DE have nerfed comparatively petty stuff in the past. Catchmoon. Arca Plasmor headshots. Khora having infinite combo with the Xoris.  Glaive damage and wind up speed, note the worst part of this was the slow charge up as you can easily get killed while waiting for it to throw. Magus lockdown doing scaling damage with Garuda’s 4. 
 

you are missing the point that it’s not the numbers alone. It’s the combination of damage and convenience. Revenant gets a nerfed roar but that’s massively offset by how much more convenient he is to use. The same is true of invisible frames, ash by far being the worst offender 

[VibingCat]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Sariyajin v said:

Strongest buff is debatable. It’s only strongest on DoT. An eclipse in light does more damage. Xata is also doing more damage on specific weapons. And toxin is actually quite a problem. If you play against infested you’ll be spammed by disrupt or aura as killing your energy. Iron skin costs a lot to cast and the casting animation is slow. Condemn won’t save you in the face of a toxin conduit. Then there’s energy drain. Your entire scenario assumes you’re camping in a corner all day. If what you were saying was remotely relevant YouTube would be full of Rhinos doing level cap but it’s not. Nezha has the same thing btw. The damage absorb to stage. As I said before he lost popularity after Revenant got buffed. 
 

single cast: guaranteed 25-30 seconds of invulnerability is easy to achieve. It’s cheap, easy and convenient. Other frames have to be constantly micromanaged to get close to the same level of robustness. 

I fully agree with you about the infested, in that case for sure Revenant is the best choice due to the poor game design that makes this faction the most deadly at high levels. However, in every other case, shield gating, Rolling Guard and Vazarin are just enough to make Rhino a top tier choice, he's in fact the only warframe I've done a solo level cap in steel path so far (Laomedeia neo disruption with no deaths, it was fun if you ask). It didn't matter how many millions overguard I'd get, any amount of that would get wiped out in seconds or even less, nonetheless it was doable nonetheless, and Revenant would've been weaker. Maybe it's an extreme example, but you mentioned level cap first.