Archons Are Too Easy Now

[(PSN)rexis12]

32 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

No. You didn't read.

All it says is you back tracking over your original complaint that you don't like that we have more options now:

On 2023-12-04 at 8:37 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

So this probably won't be a popular take because people love everything EZ, but after the change archons feel too much like paper to me

Archons are not 'Like Paper' now, they're actually functioning bosses where the weapons we built actually mean something, and this phrase:

On 2023-12-04 at 8:37 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

Here's the thing: its almost exactly as fast as killing Phorid

Is funny because the implication is that having weapons built to kill them fast is... Bad in your eyes I guess, when 90% of the game is to get the equipment to kill things fast. 

Like a lot of people want Archons Hunts to have all these cool extra features, and I'm like:

It's going to be the same RNG reward, if the reward of this super boss is still decided by the roll of a God damn dice then any kind of 'fancy mechanics' that function to prolong the fight will make it worse than it already is.

Hell part of the reason Eidolons are 'Optimise' the way they are right now, is because of their RNG+Time Gated reward. You'd probably see more Trinity, slow tanks than Volts. 

I mean seriously:

On 2023-12-05 at 1:33 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

One of the best and simplest suggestions I saw was to use a health bar system

"Hey you know about the Invincibility phases that annoy the absolute crap out of everyone? Let's make it MANDATORY instead." 

Like cool I guess. 

 

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, (PSN)rexis12 said:

All it says is you back tracking over your original complaint that you don't like that we have more options now:

This is false. I never said that. Never. You need to READ dude. What's your problem?

Just now, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Archons are not 'Like Paper' now, they're actually functioning bosses where the weapons we built actually mean something, and this phrase:

Um yes they are. We walk in, we shoot, they die, we walk out. It's Phorid. IDK what MR you are or who you play with, but that's been my experience since the change. AGAIN, I AM GLAD that more weapons can be used, for like the 5th time now, that IS GOOD. READ DUDE<

2 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Is funny because the implication is that having weapons built to kill them fast is... Bad in your eyes I guess, when 90% of the game is to get the equipment to kill things fast.

It is bad. It makes them a joke, just like Phorid and Sergeant and the Hyenas are jokes. If that's how you like your bosses, whatever man I'm happy for you. Enjoy.

4 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"Hey you know about the Invincibility phases that annoy the absolute crap out of everyone? Let's make it MANDATORY instead." 

Like cool I guess.

What? Multiple HP bars is not the same as invulnerability. They tend to have minor hp gates associated with them, that's true, but equating that to invincibility is extremely poor logic. If you happen to have suggestions of your own to improve the archons, by all means, help us out.

[(PSN)rexis12]

20 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Um yes they are. We walk in, we shoot, they die, we walk out

So like the rest of the game? 

Is that going to be the main complaint, that Archon Bosses now function like the rest of the game. 

Hell it wasn't like it was different before the changes, because back then it was the same except you were limited to a tiny portion of your arsenal. 

Meaning that Archon bosses were already a 'Phorid'. So I don't know why you didn't complain about it before. 

21 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

AGAIN, I AM GLAD that more weapons can be used

Sorry but for every

"I'm glad that we have more option"

It's followed by

"These more options take away what used to make Archons 'good'"

So I can't really take your "I'm happy that players have more option" Into any good faith when you follow it up with a "But it sucks that these new options make the fight 'easy'."

23 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

It is bad. It makes them a joke

It makes them like every other boss in the game. 

"Oh the Eidolons"

Just use Rad, Volt, and Madurai. Terry, Gerry and Harry dies in less than 5 minutes, and the only 'challenge' is the lures which hey if YOU like impromptu Mobile Defense missions in your assassinate missions good on you. 

"Oh but Profit Taker"

Is the same, it's still just go in shoot and then leave, the extra bells and whistles mean very little. Hell the hardest thing about Profit Taker isn't even Profit Taker, it's the mooks and I swear I laughed when I heard that the mooks were supposed to be the challenge. What was the giant spider tank the size of a house not enough?

28 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Multiple HP bars is not the same as invulnerability. They tend to have minor hp gates associated with them, that's true, but equating that to invincibility is extremely poor logic

Your idea basically sums down to having multiple mandatory segments, where our weapons further don't matter because of the HP gates. You have a super powerful single shot Sniper? Well don't bother because the multiple health gates will do it's best to make you regret wanting to actually use other weapons besides high fire rate + crit. 

Seriously, health gates. Imagine building your weapon to deal as much damage as possible and it doesn't even matter because the game won't let it actually deal it's full damage because you want to prolong the fight even more. 

 

If I sound negative it's cause the fact that the one time a boss is finally fixed so that weapon variety can be used again and building them actually means something to get the damage, is met with "But that makes it TOO EASY."

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Meaning that Archon bosses were already a 'Phorid'. So I don't know why you didn't complain about it before.

I did complain about it before.

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"These more options take away what used to make Archons 'good'"

You are mischaracterizing my argument, either because you didn't read or because you're trying to be a jerk. I said that the attenuation abuse was the prime mechanic of these boss fights, and now that it's gone they have no mechanic at all really, they are uninteresting and just die. I never said that the attenuation was 'good', in fact I said the exact opposite, you are once again putting words in my mouth, you have extremely bad reading comprehension skills... or you're just a a jerk. I lean toward the latter at this point.

3 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

It makes them like every other boss in the game.

If you'd actually read my posts, you'd have seen that I already said multiple times that warframe bosses in general are extremely bad, and that I would re-do all of them given the opportunity, as I'm sure pretty much the entire playerbase would also, except maybe you I guess.

3 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Your idea basically sums down to having multiple mandatory segments, where our weapons further don't matter because of the HP gates. You have a super powerful single shot Sniper? Well don't bother because the multiple health gates will do it's best to make you regret wanting to actually use other weapons besides high fire rate + crit. 

Seriously, health gates. Imagine building your weapon to deal as much damage as possible and it doesn't even matter because the game won't let it actually deal it's full damage because you want to prolong the fight even more.

If you had sufficient reading comprehension you'd have seen that I clearly stated that it is not my idea, that it was another user's, and I thought it was good. And yes, seriously, health gates. Games use them for a reason. They would be a good addition. Once more, if you're so critical of that idea, I challenge you to improve on it - show us your wisdom, go ahead now, have the creative adventure. I dare you.

3 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

If I sound negative it's cause the fact that the one time a boss is finally fixed so that weapon variety can be used again and building them actually means something to get the damage, is met with "But that makes it TOO EASY."

Once again, the attenuation abuse was the only mechanic these bosses enjoyed. Now that it is gone, there is nothing interesting about them. That's what this post is about - the removal of their one mechanic which has as a result further exposed how bad they are. Because you are likely not going to be able to process any of this very well, let me restate a few important things for you, in the hopes that shorter bold sentences are easier for you to assimilate:

Moving away from the attenuation exploit is good.

The attenuation itself remains a mistake.

Being able to use more weapons against them is good.

The fight being over in a matter of seconds is bad, especially for how elite these are meant to be.

It was bad before as well.

They need to be fixed to be better bosses.

Almost all of warframe's bosses also need to be fixed.

READ THE WORDS. THEY'RE RIGHT ABOVE THIS TEXT. UNDERSTAND THE WORDS. HAVE A NICE DAY.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Bullet sponge is not "beefiness". Bullet sponge is when boss' difficulty is only/mostly their big HP.

 

Whole ARchon hunts (not only boss fight) has just artificially increased difficulty.

1) There is "death = failure". It prevents from efficient experimentation.

2) We have bullet sponges. You don't bring "huge weapon" then you are just doing fights for very long time.

3) Huge damage. If I'm not cheating with some (near) immortality then have hard time... or rather failure (read 1st).

4) They are not hard to shoot. Shoot: head, triangle thing, some guys that make mini-boss 100% immune to damage etc.

Yeah, some are bad (but it's good to have SErgant for Nighwave and it's interesting Persona lore-wise if you think about). There are some good. They are capable to do interesting challenges without doing bullet sponge and damage showers. Angels are good example of it. They are not hard. You need to learn how to react. Only at higher level they require some better gear (for void mode).

Expand  

By your definition of bullet sponge I agree. If that's the entire 'difficulty' of the boss, it's bad, yes. But it seems like we agree that bosses should have substantially better EHP than an average enemy.

More hp? Sure, However not something like archon. Change in damage/hp from normal enemies or even bosses is huge.

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I disagree with death = failure being a negative however, I see this as a positive and it's one of the attractions of the hunt for me. It might limit experimentation, that's true, but it also means there's a standard, which is healthy imo, especially for bosses of this, ahem, intended caliber.

Not sure what standard is. I had experience of random death. That's honestly low standards. "Death = failure" is good when you can do stuff again in seconds and you know what were wrong. Not simply "oh there are too much guys spamming stuff".

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You don't have to cheat to survive in archon hunts, I also disagree with this, you just need to build well. It's not anything like going to level cap or something, where cheating is the only way. I see a tremendous variety of warframes during hunts, and I feel pretty comfortable taking almost anything myself.

I don't know. Every method I've tried failed (it was fine in normal mode). The one I've tried (Mesmer skin) fills like cheat. I don't know if there is method that both "slap every X but make other function bad/boring"

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

As for being not hard to shoot, idk, I think the archons are mostly fine in that way, they seem to strike a good balance overall. You don't want to make bosses so difficult to shoot that it's beyond frustrating, several bosses are already like that and it sucks (Mars,Saturn). The thumpers are just on the edge of being too annoying to shoot.

I would rather have them be hard to shoot than have too much ehp. At least I would know that's me that is failing. In that case it's just "I don't use X Y Z" and what's worse "I have to grind for something otherwise it will be bad".

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I don't mind weakpoints as a mechanic, it's generally a good mechanic, but I don't like it when that's the only way to take something down either, because obviously the boss can't keep it exposed the whole time and needs to protect it - hence invulnerability timers.

Boss can just make it harder to shoot. Or you need to do certain stuffs. So on and so forth.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Profit Taker and Eidolons are probably the best WF bosses but even they dip into the invulnerability pool.

Maybe, I don't have fond memories of them. One get bugged and another give me sudden "finish it in few minutes" kind of horrible stuff. I haven't tried it since them.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Eidolons are probably the best WF bosses but even they dip into the invulnerability pool.

Eidolons might be fine... but they imho dip into bullet sponge as well. Plus you need beat it 3 times.

There are other that are better imho like Ropaloli or Glassed guy.

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Overall I agree with your sentiment that the archon fights use poor methods to achieve difficulty. There are much better ways to create engaging, difficult fights - DE doesn't seem to grasp how to do this, despite us trying to help them.

They make some bosses nice... but some of us don't like them. Like Glass guy boss is very good but people don't like it.

 

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah, just back again to say this again... people are literally running Titania through this like it's Phorid

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

Am 4.12.2023 um 02:47 schrieb The_Royal_Elf_Mika:

Just dont bring meta weapons/frames.

I think its in a fine state atm.

Edit: Before the archon change, a non meta build could literally take you like a hour+ to kill it.

yay, i no longer need to abuse the Laetum or the Kuva Hek to kill it and i can use other weapons that i like.

 

Am 4.12.2023 um 01:37 schrieb CrownOfShadows:

So this probably won't be a popular take because people love everything EZ, but after the change archons feel too much like paper to me.

I DO think they are better for people with lower MR and equipment that isn't top tier, for sure. Those struggles were real, I witnessed and even participated in them. So in that way I think it was perhaps a success. But for an average archon run, it's over in the blink of an eye.

... 

We got two opposites of a spectrum and both proof that maybe not the Archon is the problem, but rather balancing in general in a sorry state in Warframe. 

Of course some gear should generally be better, as it requires more work to obtain but rn it's an incredibly small minority that surpasses most other gear by A HUUUGE F****** LOT, even when not optimized VS. optimized for certain fights... and even when it's not even late game or hard to obtain. 

Warframe is absolutely not a hard game in general, I can solo an Archon-hunt even with Nyx and Prisma Gorgon with some knowledge, skill and investment, even if it wasn't an Incarnon Gorgon (it's nice to have tho), while not even having Arcanes on (because I don't have time to grind too much).

The final fight will take maybe 2 - 5 minutes rather than seconds, which for THE endgame boss fight in an MMO, you can do only once a week, sounds more than reasonable and is quiet fun actually. So I guess I'm walking a nice middle ground here, where I use gear I just find fun and optimize/utilize it as best as I can. 

So problem now is not Archons, but people running cheese gear/builds that ruin even their fun it seems (which essentially describes OP's actual problem) and the responses kinda state the opposite end, that people can't get some gear to at least decently work for endgame content, when it should!...

So yeah, the real problem seems to be as usual - balancing. And a hot take in the Warframe community, but as developer it's your job to balance the game in a way that makes hard fights hard and easy fights easy... and that means that gear needs to work according to it. 

I remember when Boltor and Gammacor where the most op stuff you could imagine and DE actually nerfed them for the better of the game, since at that point most stuff could keep up with the other... except MK1 weapons, Hindt and other purposely made mastery fodder...

Unimaginable now, let's rather have 5 new weapons and a new Warframe every couple weeks, 4 of which are absolute garbage, Warframe is forgotten in two days, but at least the 5th weapon drives power creep forward and important - never touch the over- or underpowered stuff of previous periods again, so the Reddit mob says the update was fire, lol

... Sorry for being so cynical

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TagDatFatCat said:

Warframe is absolutely not a hard game in general, I can solo an Archon-hunt even with Nyx and Prisma Gorgon with some knowledge, skill and investment, even if it wasn't an Incarnon Gorgon (it's nice to have tho), while not even having Arcanes on (because I don't have time to grind too much).

The final fight will take maybe 2 - 5 minutes rather than seconds, which for THE endgame boss fight in an MMO, you can do only once a week, sounds more than reasonable and is quiet fun actually. So I guess I'm walking a nice middle ground here, where I use gear I just find fun and optimize/utilize it as best as I can.

Yeah but you really should not be asking be people to take their crappiest weapons into the 'the most difficult' boss just to 'have fun' in the most inefficient way possible. That's like asking someone to dig a trench with a toothpick just so they can really get the best experience (perhaps an overly dramatic example but I'm too tired to think of a better one right now). The entire game is about gear optimization as it is, nobody uses their 'trashiest' gear, especially not when gearing up for 'the hardest boss in the game' (or what was meant to be before 60 eyes - are you taking your prisma gorgon into the 60 eyes boss?). The archons, in fact, should be as hard as the 60 eyes. That's what we all expected, that's what we all wanted. It's a sad state when the missions leading up to the archon fight are now harder.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TagDatFatCat said:

So yeah, the real problem seems to be as usual - balancing. And a hot take in the Warframe community, but as developer it's your job to balance the game in a way that makes hard fights hard and easy fights easy... and that means that gear needs to work according to it.

This is absolutely correct. Power creep demands constant maintenance of the entire inventory to keep them all in line... or they should have at least enforced their weapon ranking system (MR locks) in a meaningful way. The new team seems like maybe they're trying to address this via incarnons, which is very smart, but they still have a lot of weapons to catch up on. In a world where every weapon can meaningfully compete in the SP, where every weapon is either buffed or incarnon'd onto a new plateau that's roughly even (there will always be a meta of course) then the 'take any weapon you want' idea would hold some real weight when designing a boss fight.

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Yeah but you really should not be asking be people to take their crappiest weapons into the 'the most difficult' boss just to 'have fun' in the most inefficient way possible...

That's literally not what I said and suggested... at all...

You're the one to complain how people "don't get you" and that you have an unpopular opinion, because you "like the game to be hard", yet you look for the easiest way to play the game and want stuff to be "more difficult" in the same token, when really it's only easy because of certain imbalances that YOU CHOOSE to take advantage of... you can't have your cake and eat it too! 

That's like going trough Elden Ring with "Comet Azur" + "Flask of Wondrous Physik" and then complaining about the game being too easy and wanting bosses to have quadruple health to make up the a hand full of game breaking builds... while others have fun trying to make a viable bow build. Sure you can still have fun Comet Azur-ing trough, but if you don't then don't complain and demand the game to change in the perfectly wrong ways, but maybe just nerv Azur or not make the Physic work in combination with it, lol

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TagDatFatCat said:

That's literally not what I said and suggested... at all...

Ok well sorry that's the impression you gave off, saying you how you really enjoy shooting at the archon for 5 min with your gorgon and how you 'try to find gear you find fun rather than good gear' just like the first commenter that you quoted.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TagDatFatCat said:

You're the one to complain how people "don't get you" and that you have an unpopular opinion, because you "like the game to be hard", yet you look for the easiest way to play the game and want stuff to be "more difficult" in the same token

Yeah you're doing that thing everyone seems to do where you're mad that people optimize and also want difficulty. These two things go hand in hand I don't understand why everyone feels the need to split them. You can have a gear climb and still have difficulty geezus. And to be clear for what feels like the millionth time in this thread I DO NOT and NEVER approved of the attenuation exploit in the first place. I want my gear investment to mean something AND I want difficulty. Why is that so hard to understand, I don't get it.

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Ok well sorry that's the impression you gave off, saying you how you really enjoy shooting at the archon for 5 min with your gorgon and how you 'try to find gear you find fun rather than good gear' just like the first commenter that you quoted.

I want my gear investment to mean something AND I want difficulty. Why is that so hard to understand, I don't get it.

I said that's what I do, not that everyone else has to. 

 

And as said, that's only what you get if said gear becomes exponentially overpowered, since as a company it's very unlikely that you will be able to keep releasing more stuff exponentially, since as also implied - if you increase the difficulty on existing content, then how are you going to catch new players.

So the solution is still either:

Nerfing some stuff to even the field, so you don't have to increase the difficulty artificially by just slapping bigger numbers on everything, latter would likely turn away new(er) players, first makes a hand full of veterans salty. 

Realeasing more and more difficult endgame content at an almost exponential rate... obviously turns away new players even quicker, if the early and mid game can't keep up with modern standarts. 

Or release and/or change mechanics and content of the game to favor different kind of skill checks rather than just builds, so that even with the best build you could still fail if you lack the reaction, map knowledge, enemy knowledge, strategic thinking etc., if anyone has a problem with that... why bother playing games at all... 

[OgreEye]

Give me steel path archon fights with guaranteed taugorger and make everyone happy