A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[BL4CKL1STED]

Ok here it is again. For those of you saying I am getting rid of mods for no clear reason: If you keep mods in and they remain drops, the game remains about obtaining those drops. Once you get the ones you want/need, using them given the content provided is lacking. As for me not taking critique, there has been none that stands up to the proposed ideas. Which is the issue I am having. You even quoted me on comments I have made about the critique thus far. It has been entirely made up of "People like grind", "I like grind", "Too much work", "It's a beta", "Your change is too drastic". The last one irks me the most. Even Notions proposed system does something mine does not, which becomes the issue. One aspect of the idea is attacked or criticized, without taking into account the whole idea. While traditionally you do this in a debate, it does not work here. Saying we can keep mods is fine. But that retains excessive focus on drops. Tying Mods to Mastery Rank or level completion does not encourage replaying of levels as it does not alter the current gameplay in which my skill tree does. The idea here being, these systems would suffice until the content catches up to the core game. I am still writing the other threads, but for example:

 

Powers are given innately, as stated in the OP. Powers gain new utility and power as you spend points on them. But this means you cannot max every branch. Meaning you pick what powers you want depending on your style of play. If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable. Switch with multiple targets using Switch Teleport. Hold and drag over a series of enemies, then switch to the location of the first while they are left where you were standing. This is not only useful for you, but actually promotes teamplay. You talk with your friends and say "Hey Ember, max out your Fireblast. I will switch teleport enemies into it." The idea being you can create real means of cooperation outside of increased drop farming.

 

Now think. If you just tied Mod cards to Mastery Rank, you lose power customization. My idea makes Mastery Rank viable for more than just attaining powers. Your ideas do not factor into account the barring and design of content based around a Mastery Rank. This is where I get frustrated and you accuse me of not taking criticism. No idea has taken into account my entire proposed idea. Without Precepts, you cannot understand player vitals given their current rate of progression. You cannot design content in a feasible way. Precepts, get rid of mods like Focus or Flow. Meaning you do not have to forgo other powers like Intruder. Precepts make leveling new Warframes faster and easier so you can pit them against higher level content. If you just want Mod slots and don't want to tie them to Mastery Rank, you forgo everything above and retain unbearable grind. This is where the issue lies. The idea takes into account every idea that has been posed against it, yet none have been as comprehensive. This idea literally addresses EVERYTHING. Yet manages to remain vague as to avoid greater length. There has been no constructive critique that suggests a small change here or there, but outright bashing of the idea which leads me to believe there are some people who are not reading it. Things like potatoes and forma do not exist as they have no place in my systems. Suggesting ways to retain them and their importance is fine. Saying that the idea is bad because it takes from other games, is stupid.

 

I am starting to think I need to narrate it for people who are not reading. But then there are people like Fool who agreed with the message, but wanted melee to be different; I talked to him and explained myself. I referenced DE's own work on melee and talked about keeping it fast but granting it utility. While you can still like your idea better, it should not devalue mine. There are good suggestions of other possible reworks. But as I have stated, they do not address every single issue and see fit to attack only aspects of concepts rather than the whole system, when the system is designed to be a comprehensive one. There has been very little posed against what I have said, that has peaked my interest. I am not against suggestions or critique. I am remaining objective and I understand the concerns people are showcasing. But while some are seeing fit to talk in circles to the point of contradiction; other have read the post and even saw fit to point out aspects of what I stated that debunk any supposed issue. Those people who can use the power of reading comprehension are no longer here to point out the obvious and thus leaving me to repeatedly quote myself. You can not like an idea. But to say I am limiting customization or that the change is too large; I would not have put the effort into this had I not considered simple solutions first. This is about a foundation. It retools functions to construct a system that DE would in theory not have to touch for a great stretch of time. Set it and forget it. Then bring the content to the level of the core gameplay. The whole post is about drops, gameplay, choice and function.

 

 

 

 

Basing player power on level is a wholly $&*&*#(%& idea because it restricts who players will want to play with based on who has the most tenno points.

The reason people are saying you don't take criticism is because you seem to ignore that one piece of information, and insist your system is better because it letting them design content for players of specific levels is apparantly more important then not fragmenting the player base.

 

The starmap exists, and you can CHOOSE what missions to play, and what level of enemies to fight.

They don't need to only design content around player level, since players get to choose the enemies they play against, and that is a pretty massive strength of this game.

 

Killing level 1 or level 20 grineer drop from the same base mod pool, the only difference is the affinity gain for weapons, and what resources are being found (which a lot of the early resources can be found on later planets as well).

 

It's obvious that DE was trying to create a system that is as agnostic to player level as it can be for the most part.

If you're going to build content that's always around the player's level, why give them a level in the first place?

Edited December 3, 2013 by BL4CKL1STED

[MaverickZero]

Upvoted.

Getting real tired of the farm-fest. I no longer think we're players, we switched professions since we beat Uncle Vor.

[bobafetthotmail]

 

 

It's obvious that DE was trying to create a system that is as agnostic to player level as it can be for the most part.

 

Illusion. They don't show player level, because a player's actual power level is defined by weapon level, Catalysts Formas, Mod loadouts, mod level, Warframe and Reactor, mod loadout, mod level.

 

Since mobs do have defined power levels... it's just annoying.

[Lilinith]

Couldn't help but notice the "Stances" are "Pressens", if you "Remember" it at all. Other than that little poke of fun, this is a well thought and great system. If this made it into the game, I would be genuinely happy. Hopefully, the melee system wouldn't be infringing any copylefts or sorts.

[BL4CKL1STED]

Illusion. They don't show player level, because a player's actual power level is defined by weapon level, Catalysts Formas, Mod loadouts, mod level, Warframe and Reactor, mod loadout, mod level.

 

Since mobs do have defined power levels... it's just annoying.

 

I'm actually kinda glad that they don't show my exact 'power level'. Conclave is a good guess to see how powerful you are, but when I can run solo with an unranked rhino and a level 15 brakk through a level 30-35 alert, trying to define 'player level' in a game like this is just pointless.

 

Some players will have lots of problems with enemies past level 30, some players can go up to level 40, 50, 60, etc, and still fight well.

They don't need to restrict what enemies players can fight based on their gear even more than it already is.

 

I don't think any level content was designed for any level player specifically, but to be a gradient where players are always getting more powerful, regardless of the content they are playing. I think that's also the reason that exp scaling has always been really 'flat', 50-60 for the lowest level mobs, and barely double that for the highest level mobs. Think about it.

 

Also this just happened: 

Was solo, and kicked the stalker's &#! with a level 11 mag/Lv 20 Brakk

 

Edited December 4, 2013 by BL4CKL1STED

[Selic]

Gotta say, love the concept you've laid down here.

[WhiskeyGolf]

I think mostly we're all in agreement as to the destination, we just disagree on the route and method of getting there.

 

 

LoL, I'll let the Edit-ception end here: I've got enough problems with nested processes in programming! 

 

[snip a lot of good ideas]

 

At least, that's the idea.

 

As for AI.... I dream that one day, we'll truly feel like Space Ninjas +_+  Your enemies react fast, and you have to react doubly fast: Actions and interactions; Attacks and counter-attacks; Take cover or charge; Flank or retreat. These are the things I hope we'll be able to see implemented often in the game. It's a lofty dream, but hey, Christmas is coming!

 

That's a fair bit of thought you've put it - like I said, I'm not entirely convinced, but if it works, then I won't complain. I think part of the skepticism I have is that I've seen too many cases where promises were made but things haven't actually improved that much.

 

And as to the AI... yeah, well maybe not requiring ridiculously fast reflexes like South Korean Starcraft players, but something that keeps you on the edge, where you stay awake because you need to be at the tip of the spear, where any lull in combat is a chance to catch your breath before diving back in. And not instead a chance to nod off and fall asleep in the middle of a PUG survival and wake up to see you died. ^_^;;

 

 

I really hate the lack of a QUOTE button. REALLY.

 

I was making it generic to gather other posters as well.

 

Anywyay I agree. The point I was trying to make, is that "Improve Enemy AI" is a wildly different thing, and should be addressed outside of a thread about inventory and item progression.

 

And also what Calayne said. This is a game where everything can be heavily modded and weapons are supposed to be different, so yeah, you will need a good system for that.

 

Yeah, I admit talking about combat AI was a bit of a derail and outside the scope of this thread. *shrug* But my reasons for talking about it, I've said it enough times, I think. And I'm kinda starting to see where you guys are coming from.

 

He repeats himself with other users. Once he answered already, it makes no sense to copy-paste over and over the same post just because someone keeps insisting that his system is better. This is Zamboni's thread after all.

 

*shrug* The impression I have is that OP is declining to address issues raised, and that had those issues been answered satisfactorily before, they would not be raised again.

 

And again, I'll point out that OP is so far giving the impression that his system is best, and OP does not appear interested in criticism or addressing concerns raised. I am not the only person who perceives this from OP, it should be noted.

 

This is just an illusion. His system basically locks in place all or most usual suspects mod cards every build can't do without and gives points to level them as the user or item accumulates XP.

 

A freeform... is not really more free. Because you will then need to load the usual suspects (Focus, Flow, Redirection), and other random power booster mods meant for high level players, that are frankly better served by a mechanic like his system. Yes, you could make different mod slots, but this way it's less play for grind (to get the damn mods, as there are less and the cores stop being necessary) and more for fun, or for leveling/mats anyway.

 

Yes, needs to be coupled with good AI or this will focus the attention even more on how $&*&*#(%& the mobs are.

 

*shrug* I'd argue that if these mods are such essentials, one might as well incorporate them into the Warframe stats themselves, but at this point I think we're all just talking at each other and going over what ground that has been covered, so I'd say we ought to agree to disagree.

Still, last night I actually managed to make a non-tanky Rhino focused on speed running and utility mods, purely for kicks. It was surprisingly workable. :p (For the interested: I dropped all tanky mods for that Stamina booster, Maglev, Master Thief, that loot detector thimajiggy...)

 

 

Because now all mod cards we use have a great huge gargantuan impact on the weapon's aesthetics, apart from the elements on melee.

You see lots of people complaining 'bout dis?

 

I thought what I was saying was obvious (though obviously it's not the case :p): right now, because we only have mod cards, the players deal with no visual aesthetic representations. Once we start making attachments, however, players are going to start to want visual representations of the stuff they're adding to the guns. Now, in modern FPSes, you kinda can get away with that by everything having rails and using Picatinny attachments, but obviously Warframes guns are all very different from each other, and it's going to be tricky to find an attachment that looks right with all weapons.

 

Unless we go the route JRPGs go, where attachments and other things you equip aren't always evident, but you get the stat bonuses. *shrug*

[LordMelvin]

This is the most in-depth and thought out solution I think I've ever seen for a game. Bravo to you sir.

I love the idea of using mastery rank as an extension of your weapons' and warframes' strengths. Not only does it give an incentive to continue building things beyond Rhino/Soma/Galatine, it also ensures that when you DO move to your next warframe/weapon you aren't forced back to suffer weak early levels. The mastery precepts add base functionality to your equipment that can then be supplemented later once you gain levels.

Weapon attachments are something I think should already be in the game. It makes far more sense for recoil reduction to come from a fore-grip or stock than from a nebulous item called "Steady Hands" (lets be real here, why would a recoil upgrade improve your hands and not the way you hold the weapon?). In addition, it allows for more specialization in weapons despite some of them sharing roles. The Gorgon could have more core slots due to it's longer body but fewer magazine or grip attachments, compared to the Soma which might have a slot for a scope or grip but no barrel attachments. Prime/Vandal/Wraith weapons could feature alternate slot setups rather than just improved stats from the base.

Oh now you've got me all excited and I'm going to be disappointed when this doesn't happen.

[fatpig84]

Again I came in just to shoot down the idea of boosting combat stats with Mastery.

 

A rank 10 and rank 1 player should not have a rank 10 master doing 15% more damage or having 25% more shields than a Rank 1 player. Everyone should be on a near equal combat field.

 

Boosts should be non-combat focused.

Like faster hacking, less stamina used for wall runs, more slide distance, hell longer bleed out time

 

Heck mods that are useless in the current setup should be used for that.

Edited December 4, 2013 by fatpig84

[Bl4ck46]

Man you should be in Warframe livestream talking about new goodies not just giving ideas on the forum like this.

[notBPNPC]

Truly a magnificent post. Good work. I agree with most of what you have outlined and hope DE takes your ideas into serious consideration.

[WarGrylls]

Some ideas here are very unique and innovating,,but a bit too soon and restrictive at some/certain hypothetical times. If I wanted a skill tree again, I'd hit up an RPG like Path of Exile. Their skill tree is amazing, hands down. Let hold off on this idea for like, I don't know... U15 or a bit later. I'd lose my mind going through another rebuild from scratch idea if this hit DE's attention anytime before spring time. I'll just tolerate the 2.0 flaws, patiently await fixes and tweaks, and adapt naturally.

[Dran]

A skill tree may be more vital than "just another feature"

 

For example:

 

Leveling a Warframe from rank 0 to rank 1, you get to slot in your first active skill. That's cool. A couple more level and you get to add your 2nd, 3rd or 4th skill, depending if you're willing to remove your previously installed skills.

But what about those level where ranking up doesn't give you enough mod capacity to put in ANYTHING at all? I'm sure all of us have experienced this: ranking up and doesn't feel any different.

 

Same goes for leveling weapons. Your average Excalibur just leveled his Mk1 Braton from rank 0 to rank 2 in 1 single mission! woohoo! Now let's check out what cool and awesome mod he can put in it: Nope, Ammo Drum cost 5 points... Magazine Warp? 4 points... Point Strike sounds awesome! Nope, 4 points, not to mention it's actually a 1.25% increased crit chance, as opposed to the displayed number of 25% (we've all been there)

 

This applies to Veterans too: Mr.Rhino has just Forma-ed his Braton Prime and got a V polarity. With the Catalyst, that would allow him to slap on his 135% Serration mod at only rank 3! Awesome! Next stop is Split Chamber. Oh... Mr.Rhino has to rank up his shiny Braton Prime 8 more times to be able to fit in ONE additional, but must-have mod... And then there is Shred, Speed Trigger, Heavy Caliber and all the Elemental mods... How many "empty" rank-ups will it be?

 

 

They may not be the best examples, but I'm sure most of you have gotten the point: Ranking up doesn't always mean you're getting something cool, or even a small boost in power. In fact, from rank 0 to rank 30, MOST of them are Empty rank-up, waiting for enough mod capacity to slot in something that really matters.

 

That's boring... That's wrong. Ranking up should be a "Yay, I got something cool" experience instead of "Meh, 5 more ranks until Multishot"

 

This is where a Skill Tree system would come in:

As most Skill Tree works, every "level up" gives the character/item a set amount of points (1-3 for most games) which can be spent investing in different bonuses, ranging from minor to major. That means every time you level up, you can become immediately more powerful (by little or by large). It's a sense of PROGRESSION. 

 

But like I said in another post of mine earlier (page 15 or 16), A Skill Tree does not have to mean the removal of the Mod System. They can coexist! Or even compliment each other.

 

Instead of replacing Mods with Skill Tree, add in another Tab for frames/weapons in the Arsenal UI. In addition with Mod capacity, each rank-up now gives frames/weapons 1-3 points that can be invested in a Skill Tree separated from the mods.

 

Increasing base Shield, giving frame a passive hp regen, alteration to active skills, making weapon's elemental mods more effective, reload speed mods now have a chance to make reloading instant.... the possibilities are endless.

 

And the best part, in my personal opinion, is no more empty rank ups waiting for enough mod capacity to slap on your hard-earned high level mods.

 

What do you guys think? :)

[flaicher]

Whhhaat did I just read? Impressive!

[TMadness]

I honestly had some difficulty following your post here, though  I did find the links you provided well written, a lot of passion in each of them. My only concern is the over the modding. Personally I have very few mods in my weapons or frames (basic stuff) and the reason I play this game is truly for the experience. Possibly the only game I play for pure enjoyment, I did however start grinding out a SUPRA but still it was all in fun. I took a break from the game not because of mods but because I had done just about everything I could do...so I don't agree with the idea that the mods are holding the game back.

 

However, your UI improvement makes complete sense, growing of melee is an EXCELLENT idea that I hope they really take into consideration. As it is now as it was back in the early days of the game it feels like the game is more about the weapons then the WarFrame's power/ abilities. Still good posts though.

[Agua]

Your ideas are great, as always, I'm kind of a fan of your post, HOWEVER, you should consider the following:

 

 

-What you're proposing really adds complexity to the game, this is generally good. However, this is a fast paced game in which people enter to shoot the *** out of enemies, to me and my friends, having to change weapons and wepons builds before each mission s a bummer. Even if warframe is some sort of RPG, people that play this game do it because they want to kill a lot of things fast, not because they want to mod.

- About removing mods: DE won't do that, lot of people have invested a lot of time getting and leveling mods, so if they remove mods, probably a lot of players will go away.

 

 

Other than that little observations, your ideas are great, and I think DE will take several of them and implement it on the game in a future.

[BL4CKL1STED]

A skill tree may be more vital than "just another feature"

 

For example:

 

Leveling a Warframe from rank 0 to rank 1, you get to slot in your first active skill. That's cool. A couple more level and you get to add your 2nd, 3rd or 4th skill, depending if you're willing to remove your previously installed skills.

But what about those level where ranking up doesn't give you enough mod capacity to put in ANYTHING at all? I'm sure all of us have experienced this: ranking up and doesn't feel any different.

 

Same goes for leveling weapons. Your average Excalibur just leveled his Mk1 Braton from rank 0 to rank 2 in 1 single mission! woohoo! Now let's check out what cool and awesome mod he can put in it: Nope, Ammo Drum cost 5 points... Magazine Warp? 4 points... Point Strike sounds awesome! Nope, 4 points, not to mention it's actually a 1.25% increased crit chance, as opposed to the displayed number of 25% (we've all been there)

 

This applies to Veterans too: Mr.Rhino has just Forma-ed his Braton Prime and got a V polarity. With the Catalyst, that would allow him to slap on his 135% Serration mod at only rank 3! Awesome! Next stop is Split Chamber. Oh... Mr.Rhino has to rank up his shiny Braton Prime 8 more times to be able to fit in ONE additional, but must-have mod... And then there is Shred, Speed Trigger, Heavy Caliber and all the Elemental mods... How many "empty" rank-ups will it be?

 

 

They may not be the best examples, but I'm sure most of you have gotten the point: Ranking up doesn't always mean you're getting something cool, or even a small boost in power. In fact, from rank 0 to rank 30, MOST of them are Empty rank-up, waiting for enough mod capacity to slot in something that really matters.

 

That's boring... That's wrong. Ranking up should be a "Yay, I got something cool" experience instead of "Meh, 5 more ranks until Multishot"

 

This is where a Skill Tree system would come in:

As most Skill Tree works, every "level up" gives the character/item a set amount of points (1-3 for most games) which can be spent investing in different bonuses, ranging from minor to major. That means every time you level up, you can become immediately more powerful (by little or by large). It's a sense of PROGRESSION. 

 

But like I said in another post of mine earlier (page 15 or 16), A Skill Tree does not have to mean the removal of the Mod System. They can coexist! Or even compliment each other.

 

Instead of replacing Mods with Skill Tree, add in another Tab for frames/weapons in the Arsenal UI. In addition with Mod capacity, each rank-up now gives frames/weapons 1-3 points that can be invested in a Skill Tree separated from the mods.

 

Increasing base Shield, giving frame a passive hp regen, alteration to active skills, making weapon's elemental mods more effective, reload speed mods now have a chance to make reloading instant.... the possibilities are endless.

 

And the best part, in my personal opinion, is no more empty rank ups waiting for enough mod capacity to slap on your hard-earned high level mods.

 

What do you guys think? :)

 

Systems can coexist, but they must be carefully designed to not unbalance what already exists, as well as synergize with eachother, rather than one being the dominant system.

 

I also don't think that empty rankups are a bad thing in and of themselves. They serve the purpose of connecting the larger upgrades.

Again, look at any game that has 'streamlined' their progression. Without 'fluff' levels, the whole system feels emptier. The system feels larger when most levels you feel you gain 'nothing'. If you only had 10 ranks, and ranks gave 3 times the mod energy, there might be less 'empty' levels, but the whole system would feel smaller.

 

Same if every level you had access to getting an upgrade from a tree. The system would feel smaller and way more predictable. There needs to be a fine balance between how often and how much power is gained from leveling up, and too many games are focused on 'streamlining' levels to continously give power to players, and that ends up making their games have much more boring progression systems.

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

Please organize this post in a more understandable way. It makes it very hard to read and follow. Maybe you should add headings before each topic or something.

[Dran]

Systems can coexist, but they must be carefully designed to not unbalance what already exists, as well as synergize with eachother, rather than one being the dominant system.

 

I also don't think that empty rankups are a bad thing in and of themselves. They serve the purpose of connecting the larger upgrades.

Again, look at any game that has 'streamlined' their progression. Without 'fluff' levels, the whole system feels emptier. The system feels larger when most levels you feel you gain 'nothing'. If you only had 10 ranks, and ranks gave 3 times the mod energy, there might be less 'empty' levels, but the whole system would feel smaller.

 

Same if every level you had access to getting an upgrade from a tree. The system would feel smaller and way more predictable. There needs to be a fine balance between how often and how much power is gained from leveling up, and too many games are focused on 'streamlining' levels to continously give power to players, and that ends up making their games have much more boring progression systems.

 

First point: I completely agree. I did mention in early posts that if this ever happen it would need quite a lot of balancing. My personal view is that mods are, at the moment, too strong in general, resulting in many mods being considered "must have" and leave little room for customization.

My concept is that power should be divided into 2 sources: Mods and Skill/Talent Tree - one half (not necessarilty a 50-50 balance) can be achieved by simply playing the game, the other half comes from the mods that you acquired as loots. This way you won't lose the values of mods yet don't feel severely underwhelming without the "best mods". Surely the guy with a maxed Serration will perform much better than the guy without it, but at least the gap won't be as vast as they are now.

 

The idea is that in the end the player's power stays the same, but the process of acquiring power is more gradual instead of sudden bursts (sweet points where you can fit in the big mods). Plus with the Skill/Talent tree, as well as ideas that the OP have proposed, we would add a lot more variety and freedom of customization to our overall power. Obviously there would still be certain top performance builds, but we wouldn't be as locked into them as we are now (damage, multishot, firerate, corrupted damage mod, extra multishot/fire rate mod, and then elementals)

 

 

 

As for your 2nd point about empty rank ups, I suppose that is a matter of preferences: I like apples while you like oranges. I honestly can't comprehend how empty rank ups makes the system larger - even more so how the opposite makes it smaller. Perhaps you can explain it better?

[TisEric]

This seems like a good idea, however we both know DE wont do this.

Sad truth is DE are not a good enough Dev to make this kind of substantial change this far down.

 

Platinum has been already spent on many things that would disappear , deals with companies like Sony stand in the way.

There are too many things  that right now are out of DE' hands to do this kind of change.

Even if they decided to try this which again the odds based on their history are abysmal , it would take months if not years to implement based again on their history. Damage 2.0 did little with the games mechanics yet it took them months... and achieved little.

 

 

I just don't see this happening for Warframe...

their next game once Warframe fizzles out could do with this system.

[BL4CKL1STED]

First point: I completely agree. I did mention in early posts that if this ever happen it would need quite a lot of balancing. My personal view is that mods are, at the moment, too strong in general, resulting in many mods being considered "must have" and leave little room for customization.

My concept is that power should be divided into 2 sources: Mods and Skill/Talent Tree - one half (not necessarilty a 50-50 balance) can be achieved by simply playing the game, the other half comes from the mods that you acquired as loots. This way you won't lose the values of mods yet don't feel severely underwhelming without the "best mods". Surely the guy with a maxed Serration will perform much better than the guy without it, but at least the gap won't be as vast as they are now.

 

The idea is that in the end the player's power stays the same, but the process of acquiring power is more gradual instead of sudden bursts (sweet points where you can fit in the big mods). Plus with the Skill/Talent tree, as well as ideas that the OP have proposed, we would add a lot more variety and freedom of customization to our overall power. Obviously there would still be certain top performance builds, but we wouldn't be as locked into them as we are now (damage, multishot, firerate, corrupted damage mod, extra multishot/fire rate mod, and then elementals)

 

 

 

As for your 2nd point about empty rank ups, I suppose that is a matter of preferences: I like apples while you like oranges. I honestly can't comprehend how empty rank ups makes the system larger - even more so how the opposite makes it smaller. Perhaps you can explain it better?

To clarify what I mean about 'empty' rank ups making a system bigger: 

If a player can increase their power by a predictable amount every level, in a game such as an RPG where you can spend stat points, no level is 'empty', but the system can be really boring if there aren't well crafted rules for the stats. Take Maple Story vs Ragnarok Online.

both let players increase stats by x per level, and let players drop points into skills x per level.

Maple Story's stats scale damage by (stat x attack), and players basically dump into one stat, increasing their damage by a percentage every level.

 

Ragnarok has stat calculations that are more complex, where putting into STR gives bonus melee damage every 10 points, dex and AGI also boost attack speed, and other interconnected things, where big boosts are come across at key points (such as 40, 50, 60 STR or INT, every 7 or 8 points of AGI, unlocking a new powerful skill, or hitting the level where you can equip a new piece of gear) It's properly calibrated so that most levels a player can gain 1-2 stats per level, which mostly have minimal effect except at those key points.

 

Ragnarok's leveling and progression has more levels that could be considered 'empty levels' than Maplestory's (even though the player still progresses, but not nearly as much), but they're there to connect the bigger ones by fitting inside the existing leveling system. While warframe's mod system might not be as well planned out as Ragnarok's stat system, it hints towards that kind of progression rather than something like "every level you get +1% damage", where it's predictable and simple, a 'smaller' system. Having 'connecting' levels (when done properly) creates a bigger system by making those connecting levels important for the player to make the right decisions planning their builds, so that they can get those big increases just a little faster. Right now the only way that 'empty levels' connect anything in warframe is offering a little bit of mod power that the player can't do anything with.

 

There is a lot of room for improvement in the mod system, since weapons can be completely rebuilt as needed, and another system attached to item level that has well planned big-and-small increases (or just more predictable small increases) would synergize well with what already exists, like what had existed before with the skill trees, where items could get a bonus to Damage/Magazine/Crit/Attack Speed every level, or bringing back the upgrade tree and allowing players to still distribute one point per level into an item onto that tree, as well as slotting mods.

 

(So yeah I agree about having another system on top of the mod system for letting players get stronger)

[Stakhanov]

I do agree with your points that we do have "necessity builds" Serration, Split Chamber, etc, etc, and all that fiasco, but I would be reluctant to see the current UI change in favour of this. When Damage 2.0 came in, it's not even the biggest change ever, but it confused an absolute ton of people through the back of the head. Sure, we're getting used to it now, absolutely, but I feel as though you could keep a similarly simpler User Interface with the current mod system, and achieve the same result. I do feel as though the mockups you've created are trying to make the the interface complicated purely for the sake of being complicated.

[Valkrine]

I agree wholeheartedly with changing the core.  But with that said there still needs to be some real thought on end game.

[qqchurch]

This... is a really nice thread. I'm not much for words, to be honest, but I love the concepts you've put up for everyone to see and it just gives me that small, small hope that this might get implemented. Then I get splashed by reality and I disappointedly realize that the chances of this ever being implemented properly, if at all, is... minuscule. It's damn depressing.

 

+1 to you, kind sir, for the effort you've put.

[evil_m3nace]

Well it is just adding purpose to the system they are already working on. If you watch the YouTube link in the first post, they are doing exactly what I am talking about. I am adding function to what they show, allowing for the ordering and adjustments of specific animations that net different effects when put together. Again we have people S#&$ting on the idea because it borrows from other games. Remember Me was a bad game, with good ideas. If you can take the positives from a failed idea and retool them to work for your game, that is great. Remember Me was a Frankenstein's monster of a game. The combat was fine, just not as good at the two games it borrowed from: Batman Arkham Asylum and God Hand. The same could be said for most other aspects of the game. But the concept of creating your own simplistic combos that reward you with high fidelity animations similar to a hack and slash game, as well as making using it viable through allowing it to produce more damage output or heal you, is compelling. It expands upon something they are already doing, as I said. To say you don't like it because "I don't like Remember Me", then I don't know what to tell you.

I never said I didn't like it. Where on earth are you getting that from?