A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[DocHolliday13]

Ah come on guys, no need to Troll him in his own thread. You stated you disagreed with his ideas, what else is there?

 

And while Im skeptical that DE would change their mod drop system they did state rather firmly anything was possible. Would I like a better system for customizing stuff? Yea. Do I think the tree is the logical next step [or backstep honestly in this case] I don't know. But if DE used even some of these ideas I could see things being improved. Honestly I'd like gun attachments and other things to customize my stuff. Id like mastery rank to do "something" to help me better be the badass I'm supposed to be. I'd like more room or choice "somehow" so my fast hands and ammo drum didn't need to compete for the same slots as my serration and split chamber mods. At the same token, I'm hoping that some of what I've heard about with the melee 2.0 system comes to help out the gunplay aspects as well. I like stances and skills, I like special abilities I would have to find somehow to use, or even level up. If they made all the stances they have unlock at different mastery levels instead of being MORE MODS... I think that would be great.

 

However I disagree people are just going to look at the pictures and become a fanboy, despite the amount of time and work he probably spent to make them to illustrate his ideas I think a lot of people... especially new people, just dont like how limiting the mod system is. The game is pretty brutal for people just starting not having all these mods... and the game is pretty grindy for people like me that do. I really hope thats not the idea behind the game that DE is trying to drive home. There honestly should be a lot more content for us than there is at this stage. After playing for a year the game has gotten prettier, and theres more guns that all pretty much work the same with different stats and a bunch of swords I can swing with a press of a button. The bosses all got a bunch of annoying abilities like taking away all of your energy instantly just for being near them or blinding you... a bunch of invincibility frames unless you push this button here or have a coffee break... but by and large the gameplay is still the same lacking gameplay that I came into the scene with.

 

So let me ask instead... what's "wrong" with better customization of our frames and gear? I remember DE promising that Forma-ing our stuff would eventually have cosmetic enhancements so people could see how sparkly we were. How's that coming along...? Im one of the people that liked alternative stats on my helmets. Give me options and accessories and upgrades that I can use to bling my gear out. Do I think it will come from a skill tree? No, not really. But ask yourselves this now. Is there ANYTHING... ANYWHERE... that says these two systems must be mutually exclusive? I dont see why we cant have say... a Skill tree associated with our mastery level... and a mod drop system. The skill tree would at the very least give more options and could help get rid of a bunch of the clutter with the mod system.

 

Yeah, I agree with you.

 

And it's not like the mod system itself is a bad idea. You could rework it and have it be good. But currently, there's some major problems with it.

 

1. The mods are way too powerful. There shouldn't even be mods that simply increase things like damage and shields, at least, certainly not by more than a small percentage. Choosing between, say, Serration and Fast Hands shouldn't be an obvious choice. But it is, because Serration increases your damage by up to 165%, and all your other mods build off that. If you reduced that to a max of say, 10%, or removed it entirely, everything changes. Same thing applies to many other mods as well, though not quite all.

 

2. Because some of these mods are so basic and so powerful, they are essentially mandatory - but still difficult to get, especially early. This adds completely unnecessary power-gap between current new players, and current veterans, and the amount of grind it now takes to overcome that is so much more than it was even 6 months ago, it's staggering.

 

The proposed skill tree suggestions would solve these problems, and I'd be in favor of that. But to be fair, you could also solve these problems within the current mod system, simply by drastically nerfing or removing certain mods, and possibly increasing/adding mod drops for new players in some fashion. Also, adding more mod slots to weapons, possibly with specific fixed polarities in addition to nerfing mods overall could introduce more choice flexibility without simply resulting in vastly overpowered builds. In fact, maybe having fixed polarities (and more of them, on all weapons) and finding a different use for forma would be a big part of the solution too, instead of switching things to an attachment system.

Edited April 1, 2014 by DocHolliday13

[tmtke]

I think none of the critics wanted to troll the thread, just all of our concerns were rejected with the "reread it" answer. I for myself proposed a more subtle approach, as this system is a complete rework, and don't really seems possible as a solution. The main problem is that if - theoretically- this rework becomes a reality, would it solve the problems the way the OP thinks? I think not, because the scaling and the intelligence of the enemies would be the same and the game modes and mechanics too. The real solution is not in crapping the current system, it lies in metagame. For that, the simpler the system, the easier to build on top of that. This is where we are on the same opininion with the OP. I said this before: I can be convinced if real, working examples will be presented. But so far, we didn't have one.

[theGreatZamboni]

I think none of the critics wanted to troll the thread, just all of our concerns were rejected with the "reread it" answer. I for myself proposed a more subtle approach, as this system is a complete rework, and don't really seems possible as a solution. The main problem is that if - theoretically- this rework becomes a reality, would it solve the problems the way the OP thinks? I think not, because the scaling and the intelligence of the enemies would be the same and the game modes and mechanics too. The real solution is not in crapping the current system, it lies in metagame. For that, the simpler the system, the easier to build on top of that. This is where we are on the same opininion with the OP. I said this before: I can be convinced if real, working examples will be presented. But so far, we didn't have one.

 

This is exactly what I mean. You are not reading the thread, this is why I keep telling people to re-read it. Look at this, this is directly from the OP:

 

 

If you create a solid foundation in these 3 systems, you can design enemies and content around them, everything else will fall into place.

 

When I keep parroting to read the thread, I mean it. It really is all in there if you choose to actually read it. What this line says speaks for itself. Numerous times throughout the post I say "These changes will allow for DE to focus on actual content vs. superficial skinner-box grind/RNG elements". Not in those exact words, but it is there. This is why I am frustrated. You think that if you are loud enough and persistent enough, I will just cave in. This is a case of you failing to be reasonable. Other people have offered REAL criticisms and not just false shortcomings that are actually answered in the thread. The thread itself is about creating a foundation, not about enemy AI. So to say that I do not recognize that enemies and missions types are not up to par, is to fail to do your part as someone wanting to participate in the discussion. You just keep saying "It won't work", "It's too much work", "Mods are not bad", etc, etc. All the complaints you make, ARE ADDRESSED IN THE OP. If you find something that is actually worth talking about, say so! We can talk about it, but again and again these trite non-arguments come up. This is not about me being unable to take criticism, this is about you making poor criticism. 

 

I have said this before, to you and others. Tell me exactly what is wrong with it, other than you prefer the current system. If you problem is logistics, yes that is a concern. But my concern is making the game sustainable and palatable, as well as fun. RNG is not fun. Mods are inherently flawed, something additional slots cannot solve. These are all things I have discussed ad nauseam. It really is all there, if you want me to clarity certain aspects I will. If you keep parroting drivel, I will ignore you. Noticed I have responded mostly to negative criticisms or to answer questions, I keep deferring to the OP because it is comprehensive, it is precise. Yes it is long, but should you want to talk about it, give it the attention it needs. I am not going to discuss a book with someone, without first reading it. When I find something I don't understand, I ask someone who might know. In this case, it would be me. But what you keep bringing up, is again are non-issues.

 

If you want to try one last time, make a bullet point listen of your issues. I will take a look. The OP is nuanced and comprehensive, comments like this are what warrant my suggesting you give it another read.

Edited April 2, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[Zirion_Bk]

 Mods are inherently flawed, something additional slots cannot solve. 

Could you make a bullet point list of exactly why the mod system is inherently flawed? Every single thing that is wrong, put it in a list. And then add how your system solves it to every point. I promise that it will be simpler to understand for everyone.

[Frostmire]

Mods make the gun work multiple times better ( if not alot ) than the original gun without mods . Mods do not serve a purpose of creating different playstyle for different players , many of them are must-have straight upgrades to the gear , there is little to no diversity in the process of modding your gear .

 

Even with additional mod slots , why should i use mods like Anti-toxic or Hush , i , as well as many other people would just slap more damage mod on guns , get more power strenght/efficency/duration .. etc.. on my frame instead of using Auto parry mod .

 

And what mod will DE release in the future ? Triple stats mods for more OPness ? More useless mods that nobody uses ?

 

 

Many of the current mods are not really "mods" for me , modding is just some plain simple "enchanting" , " upgrading" with a different name . At least the corrupted mods something different

[Duralumin]

Could you make a bullet point list of exactly why the mod system is inherently flawed? Every single thing that is wrong, put it in a list. And then add how your system solves it to every point. I promise that it will be simpler to understand for everyone.

 

It's not hard to figure out.

 

The mod system is flawed because DE keep releasing new mods as a lazy attempt at "content". Which leads to an oversaturation where only a select few mods are used.

Stuff like Warm Coat, Silencer, Reflex Guard and Intruder are absolutely useless. And nobody in their right mind would take them over relevant mods.

Literally all DE can do with the current system is release the newest "must have mod" (like Lethal Torrent), or release a plethora of mods that nobody uses (like Dead Eye). There is no middle ground as the optimum build will always exist for every weapon. The only people not running them are those who don't have the mods, or those who just want to make the game harder for themselves.

 

Skill trees prevent power creep as a Frame's power is then self-contained.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Duralumin

[tmtke]

It's not hard to figure out.

 

The mod system is flawed because DE keep releasing new mods as a lazy attempt at "content". Which leads to an oversaturation where only a select few mods are used.

Stuff like Warm Coat, Silencer, Reflex Guard and Intruder are absolutely useless. And nobody in their right mind would take them over relevant mods.

Literally all DE can do with the current system is release the newest "must have mod" (like Lethal Torrent), or release a plethora of mods that nobody uses (like Dead Eye). There is no middle ground as the optimum build will always exist for every weapon. The only people not running them are those who don't have the mods, or those who just want to make the game harder for themselves.

 

Skill trees prevent power creep as a Frame's power is then self-contained.

 

I will collect my bullet point list, but just a quick answer for this comment:

Neither of us critics have said that "must have mods" are good, quite the contrary is true. But it's not the mod system's fault in general, it's the difference they create, the huge bonus they add to the damage. I think the general idea was that maxing these mods is really hard and time consuming with simply collecting duplicates and cores, and therefore it can show a player's progression through the game. It's just another method or view on player progression. The flaws are fairly visible and understandable to everyone (necessity over customization), but it's not the mod card system in general.

[Zirion_Bk]

It's not hard to figure out.

 

The mod system is flawed because DE keep releasing new mods as a lazy attempt at "content". Which leads to an oversaturation where only a select few mods are used.

Stuff like Warm Coat, Silencer, Reflex Guard and Intruder are absolutely useless. And nobody in their right mind would take them over relevant mods.

Literally all DE can do with the current system is release the newest "must have mod" (like Lethal Torrent), or release a plethora of mods that nobody uses (like Dead Eye). There is no middle ground as the optimum build will always exist for every weapon. The only people not running them are those who don't have the mods, or those who just want to make the game harder for themselves.

 

Skill trees prevent power creep as a Frame's power is then self-contained.

But skill trees limit the player due to us having to put points into things we do not want to get the sweeter skills at the end. The last thing I EVER want to put on my Saryn is Power Duration due to the nature of her 1 and 4, and if I am suddenly forced to increase the duration of her skills to get something I actually want later down in the tree, I'd rather use a "flawed" system that can be fixed in a much simpler way. 

 

Also, ask yourself this. If you take Calayne's idea a few pages back in this thread, implement it in Warframe, make weapons scale with level, nerf damage mods heavily and change how multishot work or remove it. would the mod system not work much better? Utility mods could be useful in almost any build and would not have to share space with other, more useful mods like Cryo Rounds or the nerfed Serration. Also, compare the difference in the amount of work this has in comparison to Zamboni's mother of all walls of text.

 

We would still have to farm for the mods, yes, but with the way de has been going with getting the gameplay right, I'd say that we could have fun doing it, if missions became more varied with more in-mission events like sudden infested invasions or changing to objective, or even throwing in a army of energy leech leaders to zergrush you. And lazy players can just trade for the mods they need if they do not wish to grind or farm.

[Duralumin]

Neither of us critics have said that "must have mods" are good, quite the contrary is true. But it's not the mod system's fault in general, it's the difference they create, the huge bonus they add to the damage. I think the general idea was that maxing these mods is really hard and time consuming with simply collecting duplicates and cores, and therefore it can show a player's progression through the game. It's just another method or view on player progression. The flaws are fairly visible and understandable to everyone (necessity over customization), but it's not the mod card system in general.

 

No, it really is the Mod System's fault. Because they've tied all aspects of progression to it.

Your progression in strength is tied to random drops because there is no way to get stronger outside of them.

This is only magnified by the existence of damage-increasing mods, and mods like Multishot (which is a straight DPS multiplier). People will opt to only mod in one of two things on their weapons:

-More damage

-Mods that bandage crippling aspects of a weapon (such as Sniper Rifles' slow RoF and Reload Speed)

There is no room for utility mods.

 

 

But skill trees limit the player due to us having to put points into things we do not want to get the sweeter skills at the end. The last thing I EVER want to put on my Saryn is Power Duration due to the nature of her 1 and 4, and if I am suddenly forced to increase the duration of her skills to get something I actually want later down in the tree, I'd rather use a "flawed" system that can be fixed in a much simpler way.

If not skill trees, then instead manual point allocation.

Anything is better than leaving a player entirely at the mercy of RNG.

[Zirion_Bk]

 

Anything is better than leaving a player entirely at the mercy of RNG.

Solution: Give players a set of mods when they start the game, consisting of damage mods for their weapons, shield and health mods for their warframe and some randomized utility mods.

 

Also, new faction and enemies for each faction is coming. That means that de can move some mods over to the new faction and enemies and reduce the dillution of the mods. And there is still trading for those who don't want to trust the rng. 

 

And who knows? DE are continuously updating and fixing parts of the game. Maybe Mercury will yield higher chances for these "essential" mods since it is the beginning area of the game.

[Selenus]

now it is like this: playing for drop & leveling up frames/modes, once you have all needed there's nothing to do with it.. cause no normally HARD bosses, no challenges.. almost nothing is left after you have high lvl *all*

 

i guess it should be like this: just playing for fun on any level and have challenges! like dark souls :)

Edited April 2, 2014 by Selenus

[Zirion_Bk]

now it is like this: playing for drop & leveling up frames/modes, once you have all needed there's nothing to do with it.. cause no normally HARD bosses, no challenges.. almost nothing is left after you have high lvl *all*

 

i guess it should be like this: just playing for fun on any level and have challenges! like dark souls :)

People can still have fun in the game even after getting everything. They can aim for one hour in a Nightmare survival for example.

[CBAROG]

People can still have fun in the game even after getting everything. They can aim for one hour in a Nightmare survival for example.

That's artificial extension of the game. You could do it once, twice, many times over. But calling it fun is just very very wrong. It is tedious.

[Selenus]

People can still have fun in the game even after getting everything. They can aim for one hour in a Nightmare survival for example.

it is fun for few times just.. 

[Zirion_Bk]

That's artificial extension of the game. You could do it once, twice, many times over. But calling it fun is just very very wrong. It is tedious.

Then, how will you have fun in the proposed system? After you've unlocked every stance, attachment, gun and warframe? Do tell me, please. Will you leave the game until the next update or far- oh wait, the system got rid of that. 

 

 

it is fun for few times just.. 

As is experimenting with builds. So, how would you have a fun and challenging mission run in the proposed system without going to Nightmare mode or gimping yourself?

[CBAROG]

Then, how will you have fun in the proposed system? After you've unlocked every stance, attachment, gun and warframe? Do tell me, please. Will you leave the game until the next update or far- oh wait, the system got rid of that. 

 

 

As is experimenting with builds. So, how would you have a fun and challenging mission run in the proposed system without going to Nightmare mode or gimping yourself?

I am not defending the "proposed system". And I don't think that one person is able to really rework Warframe. Unless that person is a genius.

THAT is the main problem of Warframe now. You can't "have a fun and challenging mission". And that problem isn't solved yet.

 

[Zirion_Bk]

THAT is the main problem of Warframe now. You can't "have a fun and challenging mission". And that problem isn't solved yet.

 

That's true, aside from self-gimping. Maybe they should bump up the boss scaling by a few notches and make them more dangerous. I remember Salad V being really fun and challenging, as well as the Hyena Pack, and even Lech Kril. I think that DE should buff boss scaling or add a Hard mode where the boss can tear even a MR 12 Rhino apart.

[CBAROG]

 I think that DE should buff boss scaling or add a Hard mode where the boss can tear even a MR 12 Rhino apart.

No. Just no. Not another scaling.

[CBAROG]

Also 

 

Hard mode where the boss can tear even a MR 12 Rhino apart.

Without any means to counter it, the fight will turn into slaughter. And more whining. So... no.

[CBAROG]

If DE don't know how to solve all Warframe problems, maybe they should just make something like Design Counsil. And invite people with interesting ideas. Like Zamboni. When people work together they tend to make amazing things.
Not that I believe it will become reality. And that's sad.

Edited April 2, 2014 by CBAROG

[Zirion_Bk]

Also 

 

Without any means to counter it, the fight will turn into slaughter. And more whining. So... no.

IF the boss catches you. Bosses should be hard and put your skills to the test. Currently, you can nuke almost every single boss with a Soma in a matter of seconds. Also, notice that I said Hard mode. As in "Optional mode that gives experienced players a challenge/run for their money". The scaling can be debated though. 

[Zirion_Bk]

If DE don't know how to solve all Warframe problems, maybe they should just make something like Design Counsil. And invite people with interesting ideas. Like Zamboni. When people work together they tend to make amazing things.

Not that I believe it will become reality. And that's sad.

We already have a design Council that people could join if they purchased a Founder's package of high-enough rank when it was availible during a large portion of this open Beta.

[Frostmire]

It's not only the mods'd fault , there will always be mods that are slighty to much better than some others , and the current system just doesn't offer much of the need of diversity to the game . There will still be no reason for me not to slap all the "core mods" ( powerstrenght/duration/damage/firerate...etc ) to my gears even when they are nerfed to oblivion .

 

Giving the players all the mods at the start of the game will only make warframe $&*&*#(%&ly easy .

 

And what " original" and powerful mods did DE add to the game recently ? Dual mods have 2 of the same kinds of stat as their normal counterpart , corrupted mods are some welcomed side grade upgrades to the game , but all of them fall to either "too good not to have" or "pure garbage"

[DocHolliday13]

That's artificial extension of the game. You could do it once, twice, many times over. But calling it fun is just very very wrong. It is tedious.

 

What ever happened to playing a game just because the gameplay itself is fun?

 

Personally, I find it just that much harder to enjoy the gameplay that already exists, simply because so much focus is put on gathering loot.

[Scherhardt]

I'm quite sad to say that this idea is not going to happen.

Warframe will start to solidify its foundation after U13.

 

Amazing ideas tho really liked everything.

I hope they take ideas here and apply some of it in the future.