A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Aggh]

I suggested melee only mode, and combos over a year ago. I got a lot of static, and insults thrown at me. I suggested playing the stalker..let's not go there. I suggested making game modes more gamey. Making defense a double or nothing situation past certain milestones in the waves. Nothing but people screaming at me.

 

If you want to make this a loot based game, then, there has to be more loot. I mean, grinding for one stupid god damn stance mod for weeks doesn't substantiate a game. You are no more or less better along the way for your effort, and when you do get that gleaming talon, you basically just put another mod into your codex.

 

But people seem to like it. And it fuels a vicious cycle...because the developers aren't being challenged to actually enrich the game. Instead they are challenged to sell more garbage. And add mods behind an RNG wall to influence them to play once they bought the garbage.

 

So here we are now.

It already is a loot based game.  The problem is that the loot lacks depth.  These suggestions don't add that.  They're more about achieving a semblance of balance through limited choice.  The thing is, that still won't create build diversity and it strays to far away from the core concepts that the game was built around just because the OP doesn't like grinding and RNG.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Yaer

[DirkDeadeye]

It already is a loot based game.  The problem is that the loot lacks depth.  This suggestions don't add that.

 

I don't see it that way. Loot based..no. You're gathering space rocks and mods. For the single purpose of leveling up your mastery rank. It's beyond lacking depth. It lacks purpose, it lacks progression. This game is a storefront masquerading as a game.

 

There hardly is any game to it. There's virtually no reason to use anything outside of the 4-5 weapons on top of the power creep, and a handfull of frames.

 

adding depth to the gathering of things isn't going to make this game better. It needs to be entertaing before, during and after you try and get said loot.

 

But as I said, there are people that out number us 100:1 who are fine with how shallow and simple things are now So I don't expect change.

 

I've said for a long time now that these guys developing this game are playing it by ear, and have no idea what they're trying to make of it. And it shows. The rest of the departments are stellar at their jobs. Design, no. Let's just keep adding S#&$ into the game, let's design melee 2.0 and place a few or more of the melee mods behind massive grind walls. That'll keep them playing till we figure something out next.

 

I mean S#&$, bosses are still using invunerable phases, and behave much teh same across the board, despite being told they are place holders.

 

Dark sectors were rushed out the gate, and owning and maintaining them only serves to stress the alliances. There is no gain. There is hardly any reason to even play the missions outside of sechura.

 

Conclaves are still a joke.

 

We were given T4, and in spite of that the loot tables are still just as dilute.

 

Every time we get a new feature..the things that need refinement are that much more neglected. Everything feels like an afterthought. Another layer on top of a 40 foot tall dagwood style S#&$ sandwich, and we still haven't seen the last slice of bread.

 

Yet art, and weapon design, modeling, texturing..etc..outside of v/o are perfect. I think these ideas are better than the S#&$ we've been shovled in our mouths the past year.

[Aggh]

I don't see it that way. Loot based..no. You're gathering space rocks and mods. For the single purpose of leveling up your mastery rank. It's beyond lacking depth. It lacks purpose, it lacks progression. This game is a storefront masquerading as a game.

 

There hardly is any game to it. There's virtually no reason to use anything outside of the 4-5 weapons on top of the power creep, and a handfull of frames.

 

adding depth to the gathering of things isn't going to make this game better. It needs to be entertaing before, during and after you try and get said loot.

 

But as I said, there are people that out number us 100:1 who are fine with how shallow and simple things are now So I don't expect change.

 

I've said for a long time now that these guys developing this game are playing it by ear, and have no idea what they're trying to make of it. And it shows. The rest of the departments are stellar at their jobs. Design, no. Let's just keep adding S#&$ into the game, let's design melee 2.0 and place a few or more of the melee mods behind massive grind walls. That'll keep them playing till we figure something out next.

 

I mean S#&$, bosses are still using invunerable phases, and behave much teh same across the board, despite being told they are place holders.

 

Dark sectors were rushed out the gate, and owning and maintaining them only serves to stress the alliances. There is no gain. There is hardly any reason to even play the missions outside of sechura.

 

Conclaves are still a joke.

 

We were given T4, and in spite of that the loot tables are still just as dilute.

 

Every time we get a new feature..the things that need refinement are that much more neglected. Everything feels like an afterthought. Another layer on top of a 40 foot tall dagwood style S#&$ sandwich, and we still haven't seen the last slice of bread.

 

Yet art, and weapon design, modeling, texturing..etc..outside of v/o are perfect. I think these ideas are better than the S#&$ we've been shovled in our mouths the past year.

Poor implementations doesn't change what it is.  Now you're going to tell me that borderlands isn't a loot based game because all you do is shoot stuff and complete quests to get new weapons/shields/grenades.  Same with diablo, obviously not a loot based game because all you do is kill stuff and repeat the same quests for better gear.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Aggh

[43Emprah]

I don't see it that way. Loot based..no. You're gathering space rocks and mods. For the single purpose of leveling up your mastery rank. It's beyond lacking depth. It lacks purpose, it lacks progression. This game is a storefront masquerading as a game.

 

There hardly is any game to it. There's virtually no reason to use anything outside of the 4-5 weapons on top of the power creep, and a handfull of frames.

 

adding depth to the gathering of things isn't going to make this game better. It needs to be entertaing before, during and after you try and get said loot.

 

But as I said, there are people that out number us 100:1 who are fine with how shallow and simple things are now So I don't expect change.

 

I've said for a long time now that these guys developing this game are playing it by ear, and have no idea what they're trying to make of it. And it shows. The rest of the departments are stellar at their jobs. Design, no. Let's just keep adding S#&$ into the game, let's design melee 2.0 and place a few or more of the melee mods behind massive grind walls. That'll keep them playing till we figure something out next.

 

I mean S#&$, bosses are still using invunerable phases, and behave much teh same across the board, despite being told they are place holders.

 

Dark sectors were rushed out the gate, and owning and maintaining them only serves to stress the alliances. There is no gain. There is hardly any reason to even play the missions outside of sechura.

 

Conclaves are still a joke.

 

We were given T4, and in spite of that the loot tables are still just as dilute.

 

Every time we get a new feature..the things that need refinement are that much more neglected. Everything feels like an afterthought. Another layer on top of a 40 foot tall dagwood style S#&$ sandwich, and we still haven't seen the last slice of bread.

 

Yet art, and weapon design, modeling, texturing..etc..outside of v/o are perfect. I think these ideas are better than the S#&$ we've been shovled in our mouths the past year.

And yet none of these points have ANYTHING to do with Mods VS Skill tree.

[5Billion]

We have the groundwork for a questing system coming. This alone could herald a new era for loot distribution in the game. Building faction reputation, purchasing upgrades, being awarded upgrades for accomplishments. They could add a challenge system that allows us to net rewards for completing tasks in a unique way. The sky is the limit on how distribution could work. The mod card system is something I personally enjoy. I have grown to loathe the fat trimmed talent trees of recent rpgs, where players cannot make "bad" choices. Often times, what other players consider "bad" choices, usually only concerns bleeding edge end-game content. If I want to screw around with weird builds to spice up how I play solo, or just having a good time with friends, the current system lets me do that with zero consequences. I don't have to pay for a respec, I don't have to go back 9 steps in a tree to make one change to open another path or meet a requisite, I just swap the damn mod.

Yea you have some valid points, but dont over hype the quest system. First of all, DE doesnt even like lore, so unfortunately quests may not reveal any good lore.

 

Also, look at eh dark sectors, which were another end-game thing. "OH you can OWN a PART of the SOLAR SYSTEM! GIVE BONUSES AND COLLECT TRIBUTES! YAY!"

And current people who are playing dark sectors other than for 20k+ credit rewards for conflicts.... not that much.

[DirkDeadeye]

Poor implementations doesn't change what it is.  Now you're going to tell me that borderlands isn't a loot based game because all you do is shoot stuff and complete quests to get new weapons/shields/grenades.  Same with diablo, obviously not a loot based game because all you do is kill stuff and repeat the same quests for better gear.

 

No. You collect gear, and upgrade it along the way.

 

IF you're gonna tell me that grabbing fusion cores and plugging them into mods is comparative to the way you progress in Diablo, or Borderlands..I will sorely disagree.

 

You get the standard gang of mods, you upgrade them which takes a lot of effort, or hardly any, and you hit a ceiling until they release a new overpowered weapon to keep us playing.

 

Diablo and Borderlands are a hell of a lot different, you not only change your loadout, but the personification of your character..and the look and feel (the same one, rather than just dumping mag, and never using her again for a rhino nyx, nekros..etc)

 

They don't depend on weekly addtions of weapons ascending the level of powercreep. They also use a level based system. Mobs and character are both clearly defined by level.

 

They're also not designed to be infinitely playable, when we got burned out on Diablo 3, they made an expansion, added more setpeices, and acended the level cap, borderlands made a sequel, an entirely new game..

 

Warframe is free to play, so it's all contained within the world they defined. Layering S#&$ on top of S#&$, on top of S#&$, and forgetting to balance previous content versus new content...without actually using mastery rank to gate people from planets and using frames and weapons is a huge mistake. You get everything all at once. You're quick to find a celing, much, much faster than diablo 3.

[DirkDeadeye]

And yet none of these points have ANYTHING to do with Mods VS Skill tree.

 

it sure has a hell of a lot to do with the post I quoted though didn't it? Thanks for contributing.

 

Oh wait.

Edited July 5, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[Aggh]

No. You collect gear, and upgrade it along the way.

 

IF you're gonna tell me that grabbing fusion cores and plugging them into mods is comparative to the way you progress in Diablo, or Borderlands..I will sorely disagree.

 

You get the standard gang of mods, you upgrade them which takes a lot of effort, or hardly any, and you hit a ceiling until they release a new overpowered weapon to keep us playing.

 

Diablo and Borderlands are a hell of a lot different, you not only change your loadout, but the personification of your character..and the look and feel (the same one, rather than just dumping mag, and never using her again for a rhino nyx, nekros..etc)

 

They don't depend on weekly addtions of weapons ascending the level of powercreep. They also use a level based system. Mobs and character are both clearly defined by level.

 

They're also not designed to be infinitely playable, when we got burned out on Diablo 3, they made an expansion, added more setpeices, and acended the level cap, borderlands made a sequel, an entirely new game..

 

Warframe is free to play, so it's all contained within the world they defined. Layering S#&$ on top of S#&$, on top of S#&$, and forgetting to balance previous content versus new content...without actually using mastery rank to gate people from planets and using frames and weapons is a huge mistake. You get everything all at once. You're quick to find a celing, much, much faster than diablo 3.

 

No, you grind for gear and upgrade it along the way.  Again, the system lacks depth.  It doesn't change the fact that you're grinding for loot.   Your arguments speak to how it's poorly implemented, not to what it is.  If you're grinding for loot it's a loot based game.   

 

It's inevitable that people will burn out bashing their head into an rng wall for the same exact content that everyone else has.  Your examples illustrate that point perfectly.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Aggh

[43Emprah]

Yea you have some valid points, but dont over hype the quest system. First of all, DE doesnt even like lore, so unfortunately quests may not reveal any good lore.

 

Also, look at eh dark sectors, which were another end-game thing. "OH you can OWN a PART of the SOLAR SYSTEM! GIVE BONUSES AND COLLECT TRIBUTES! YAY!"

And current people who are playing dark sectors other than for 20k+ credit rewards for conflicts.... not that much.

My intention is not to overhype anything. I was pointing out the POTENTIAL that a questing/faction/reputation system has for the game. Whether that potential is realized, is up to DE to decide.

I think that the core issue with the game that people come back to, time and time again, has been loot distribution and dilution. Yet somehow the mod system itself is being scapegoated as the system that needs to eb changed. I think that is looking in the wrong direction.

Most of the rants in this thread alone, don't even touch on why they think a skill tree system is better than a mod system, just that farming for mods sucks. Which again, makes distribution the issue, not the way the mod system is designed. I was simply pointing out that these upcoming methods for loot distribution COULD drastically change that fundamental issue. 

If the quest system is poorly implemented, and the rewards are underwhelming, and they fail to deliver on what could be a way to alleviate grind, I'll be making negative posts right alongside you. I have no problem with calling a spade a spade. I just tend to avoid casting stones before a verdict is reached.

[43Emprah]

it sure has a hell of a lot to do with the post I quoted though didn't it? Thanks for contributing.

 

Oh wait.

I was pointing out the derailment that this thread has evolved into. Trying to bring the conversation back to the OP isn't such a bad thing, now is it? 

[DirkDeadeye]

No, you grind for gear and upgrade it along the way.  Again, the system lacks depth.  It doesn't change the fact that you're grinding for loot.

 

The foundation of the game and how they impliment changes doesn't create an enviroment to give it any depth. You will always hit a ceiling at a bullets pace. Compond that with the fact that, like I said, maybe 1% of us see it that way. Ain't nothing gonna change.

[DirkDeadeye]

I was pointing out the derailment that this thread has evolved into. Trying to bring the conversation back to the OP isn't such a bad thing, now is it? 

 

56 pages, and the developer backpeddaling, yet still ignoring his feedback. This isn't gonna change anything.

 

On top of that, forget the mods name, but he was shrugged off and told that they won't listen to him since he doesn't have any experience as a developer despite being a mod, and contributing a lot of feedback and suggestions. Oh wait I remember he DID have experience. Or so I was told..who was the CM who stepped down some time ago?

 

Phils ideas being publically blown off, these ideas publically blown off. These people have egos the size of jabraltar. That's their right and all, but I've learned that talking to my dog about things I'd like to see in this game is a better use of my time. She wags her tail and licks my face. All I get here is loud noise and insults..despite..a lot of my feedback creeping into the game over a year later. I wish the archived stuff wasin't so effed up.

Edited July 5, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[Aggh]

The foundation of the game and how they impliment changes doesn't create an enviroment to give it any depth. You will always hit a ceiling at a bullets pace. Compond that with the fact that, like I said, maybe 1% of us see it that way. Ain't nothing gonna change.

That's the same kind of vaguery and nonsense that the OP posts.  The foundations?  Mods are just gear under a different name.  There are piles of things they could do to give them the kind of lootiness that other Arpgs have.  Notionphil had a pretty good thread on traits for instance.  

 

It's only a question of DE getting to work on it instead of adding another new system.

 

 

56 pages, and the developer backpeddaling, yet still ignoring his feedback. This isn't gonna change anything.

 

On top of that, forget the mods name, but he was shrugged off and told that they won't listen to him since he doesn't have any experience as a developer despite being a mod, and contributing a lot of feedback and suggestions. Oh wait I remember he DID have experience. Or so I was told..who was the CM who stepped down some time ago?

 

Phils ideas being publically blown off, these ideas publically blown off. These people have egos the size of jabraltar. That's their right and all, but I've learned that talking to my dog about things I'd like to see in this game is a better use of my time. She wags her tail and licks my face. All I get here is loud noise and insults..despite..a lot of my feedback creeping into the game over a year later. I wish the archived stuff wasin't so effed up.

Phils threads have come up more than a couple times in dev streams (the most recent being the enemy design team stream).  Not immediately acting on them doesn't mean that they're blowing them off.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Aggh

[43Emprah]

56 pages, and the developer backpeddaling, yet still ignoring his feedback. This isn't gonna change anything.

 

On top of that, forget the mods name, but he was shrugged off and told that they won't listen to him since he doesn't have any experience as a developer despite being a mod, and contributing a lot of feedback and suggestions. Oh wait I remember he DID have experience. Or so I was told..who was the CM who stepped down some time ago?

 

Phils ideas being publically blown off, these ideas publically blown off. These people have egos the size of jabraltar. That's their right and all, but I've learned that talking to my dog about things I'd like to see in this game is a better use of my time. She wags her tail and licks my face. All I get here is loud noise and insults..despite..a lot of my feedback creeping into the game over a year later. I wish the archived stuff wasin't so effed up.

I think that something we as consumers (I am guilty of this too) tend to sweep under the rug so frequently, is that Gaming is one of the only creative mediums, where you have to constantly balance creating the art you want to, and remembering that it is also an iterative product.

When it comes to knowing when to stick to your guns and "shrug off" assertions from others, and when widen your focus, are lines that I can see (as a creative person myself) being something that can blur very easily. I am not white Knighting DE here. Just acknowledging that human beings who finally got to assemble and build their dream game, on their own terms, after around a decade of keeping it in their back pockets, might be apt to make some snap judgements, especially when people are coming at them with insults, and an overall abrasive tone.

Hell, a ton of my ideas on the dojo and design aesthetics ended up in the game months upon months after I made the suggestions, but it's also just as likely that these were ideas that were already under consideration. Maybe my posts made a push that influenced development, maybe it's just coincidence.

The fact of the matter is, nearly any large online community becomes more and more volatile, as they become more passionate. When I make a mistake in a piece of artwork, or a piece of music I've composed, I don't have thousands upon thousands of people hurling insults at me, telling me I don't know what I am doing, or that I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel". 

I'm good with constructive criticism, but even I would crack at the seams on occasion, if this was being hurled at me on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if you "know what you are getting into" when it comes making an online game, people are going to lose their cool. Point me in the direction of a gaming community as rapidly growing as warframe or other mmo's are, where no one on the Dev team has had a moment that struck a nerve, when "enough was enough" on a given day.

There is a lot under the hood to consider, on a human level, beyond "I am not getting the game I want" at the end of the day.

[(PSN)jenax002]

I think that something we as consumers (I am guilty of this too) tend to sweep under the rug so frequently, is that Gaming is one of the only creative mediums, where you have to constantly balance creating the art you want to, and remembering that it is also an iterative product.

When it comes to knowing when to stick to your guns and "shrug off" assertions from others, and when widen your focus, are lines that I can see (as a creative person myself) being something that can blur very easily. I am not white Knighting DE here. Just acknowledging that human beings who finally got to assemble and build their dream game, on their own terms, after around a decade of keeping it in their back pockets, might be apt to make some snap judgements, especially when people are coming at them with insults, and an overall abrasive tone.

Hell, a ton of my ideas on the dojo and design aesthetics ended up in the game months upon months after I made the suggestions, but it's also just as likely that these were ideas that were already under consideration. Maybe my posts made a push that influenced development, maybe it's just coincidence.

The fact of the matter is, nearly any large online community becomes more and more volatile, as they become more passionate. When I make a mistake in a piece of artwork, or a piece of music I've composed, I don't have thousands upon thousands of people hurling insults at me, telling me I don't know what I am doing, or that I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel". 

I'm good with constructive criticism, but even I would crack at the seams on occasion, if this was being hurled at me on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if you "know what you are getting into" when it comes making an online game, people are going to lose their cool. Point me in the direction of a gaming community as rapidly growing as warframe or other mmo's are, where no one on the Dev team has had a moment that struck a nerve, when "enough was enough" on a given day.

There is a lot under the hood to consider, on a human level, beyond "I am not getting the game I want" at the end of the day.

 

Totally agree^^

[-FrostByte-]

why not have mod slots for

 

passives

 

actives

 

utility?!?

[DirkDeadeye]

 

That's the same kind of vaguery and nonsense that the OP posts.  The foundations?  Mods are just gear under a different name.  There are piles of things they could do to give them the kind of lootiness that other Arpgs have.  Notionphil had a pretty good thread on traits for instance.  

 

It's only a question of DE getting to work on it instead of adding another new system.

 

 

Phils threads have come up more than a couple times in dev streams (the most recent being the enemy design team stream).  Not immediately acting on them doesn't mean that they're blowing them off.

 

 

I've been here for a year and 5 months. I'm sure you have too. And that's precisely what happens, and what will happen. And why I can't compare these games, because the celing isn't nearly as small as this one in those two. And it won't change. I think mainly because it will effect their bottom line, or they think it will. And again we represent 1% of the voices like phils threads. If they're publically shot down, or mumbled, compounded with the egos of the lead desginers..means it's never gonna happen, not immediately, and not in the future. Their behavior suggests that.

 

We can brainstorm ideas until we're numb in the face from talking, and design a game of our own. But they're not gonna listen, they're not gonna act on it. And I say this to challenge them. Yeah you Steve. For taking the feedback of us lowly pesants and incoperating it into thought process. Much like you have a lot of the ideas I've spitballed a long time ago.

[DirkDeadeye]

I think that something we as consumers (I am guilty of this too) tend to sweep under the rug so frequently, is that Gaming is one of the only creative mediums, where you have to constantly balance creating the art you want to, and remembering that it is also an iterative product.

When it comes to knowing when to stick to your guns and "shrug off" assertions from others, and when widen your focus, are lines that I can see (as a creative person myself) being something that can blur very easily. I am not white Knighting DE here. Just acknowledging that human beings who finally got to assemble and build their dream game, on their own terms, after around a decade of keeping it in their back pockets, might be apt to make some snap judgements, especially when people are coming at them with insults, and an overall abrasive tone.

Hell, a ton of my ideas on the dojo and design aesthetics ended up in the game months upon months after I made the suggestions, but it's also just as likely that these were ideas that were already under consideration. Maybe my posts made a push that influenced development, maybe it's just coincidence.

The fact of the matter is, nearly any large online community becomes more and more volatile, as they become more passionate. When I make a mistake in a piece of artwork, or a piece of music I've composed, I don't have thousands upon thousands of people hurling insults at me, telling me I don't know what I am doing, or that I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel". 

I'm good with constructive criticism, but even I would crack at the seams on occasion, if this was being hurled at me on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if you "know what you are getting into" when it comes making an online game, people are going to lose their cool. Point me in the direction of a gaming community as rapidly growing as warframe or other mmo's are, where no one on the Dev team has had a moment that struck a nerve, when "enough was enough" on a given day.

There is a lot under the hood to consider, on a human level, beyond "I am not getting the game I want" at the end of the day.

 

Right, and when every contribution they make just further sets the game back..when you clearly see that they have no earthly idea as to how we even play the game to begin with on a effing livestream for that matter, when every ounce of feedback is treated as conjecture, one does get frustrated. Rightfully so. So to say that going off topic in this thread is detremental.. that's completely false. There isn't a lick of feedback that's been given kudos to. More often than not it's rebecca just doing her due diligience and painting the illusion that the developers actually care about our feedback and concerns. They don't. And that's their right. But i'm not going to kid myself and think that anything we contribute here with substatiante into anything that will make this game a better place. We'll just get more weapons to grind, more tilesets, more events, and more busted @$$ game features that will be forgotten when the next mode/feature comes out.

 

F*** feedback, I'm just gonna show them how hard headed they are. Tired of dreamig of ideas just to have a toxic community yell NO at me, and pray for a response, I've seen the offical responses. God damn offensive.

Edited July 5, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[Aggh]

I've been here for a year and 5 months. I'm sure you have too. And that's precisely what happens, and what will happen. And why I can't compare these games, because the celing isn't nearly as small as this one in those two. And it won't change. I think mainly because it will effect their bottom line, or they think it will. And again we represent 1% of the voices like phils threads. If they're publically shot down, or mumbled, compounded with the egos of the lead desginers..means it's never gonna happen, not immediately, and not in the future. Their behavior suggests that.

 

We can brainstorm ideas until we're numb in the face from talking, and design a game of our own. But they're not gonna listen, they're not gonna act on it. And I say this to challenge them. Yeah you Steve. For taking the feedback of us lowly pesants and incoperating it into thought process. Much like you have a lot of the ideas I've spitballed a long time ago.

I'm sure they'd be much more inclined towards acting on user suggestions if craptacular threads like this weren't getting love fests.  It's hard enough to act on player suggestions as it is with out watching players gobbling up utter nonsense that's merely playing to player discontent with well known design problems without actually attempting to suggest actionable changes.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Aggh

[SoulEchelon]

56 pages, and the developer backpeddaling, yet still ignoring his feedback. This isn't gonna change anything.

 

I wouldn't call manning up and giving a well thought out apology as "backpedalling", especially when his initial response was pretty damned spot on; albeit perhaps a little too strong.

 

But you can't really blame him, nor any of the other devs. They've been at work on this game for years, have been working constantly to give consistent updates and tons of content literally every single week. Yeah, there are flaws. Every single one of the devs on that couch have stated that. The game isn't perfect; hell it isn't even finished. But it IS their brainchild; something they've been working on for a pretty large chunk of their adult lives.And to have someone come around and give a question laced with derogatory insults towards their intelligence and the game they've lovingly worked on for so long...Yeah, I think Steve showed alot of restraint, really.

 

As for "still ignoring feedback", I disagree. Just because they aren't immediately implementing our ideas without a second thought doesn't mean they're "ignoring" it. If they constantly "ignore" feedback like you say they are, then many of the changes that have been introduced wouldn't be here in the first place. Know how aura mods give mod capacity? That used to not be a thing. But the community rallied together, DE heard, and bam. That's just one example out of many.

 

Quite frankly, you don't really sound like you're interested in even being heard. I can't help but think the second they implement something you want, you'll yell at them for taking your idea. That's how you currently sound like right now. You keep making assumptions that you're "not being heard" and that we're "lowly peasants" and that the devs have "egos" that they have yet to actually showcase. They're proud of their game, but I have yet to see any of them show any sort of inkling that they're looking down at any of us. Yeah - Steve called bullS#&$ on an inflammatory question. But guess what? He answered it in full, and admitted he could've done better with the system in question. How is that egotistical?

 

 

 

I think that something we as consumers (I am guilty of this too) tend to sweep under the rug so frequently, is that Gaming is one of the only creative mediums, where you have to constantly balance creating the art you want to, and remembering that it is also an iterative product.

When it comes to knowing when to stick to your guns and "shrug off" assertions from others, and when widen your focus, are lines that I can see (as a creative person myself) being something that can blur very easily. I am not white Knighting DE here. Just acknowledging that human beings who finally got to assemble and build their dream game, on their own terms, after around a decade of keeping it in their back pockets, might be apt to make some snap judgements, especially when people are coming at them with insults, and an overall abrasive tone.

Hell, a ton of my ideas on the dojo and design aesthetics ended up in the game months upon months after I made the suggestions, but it's also just as likely that these were ideas that were already under consideration. Maybe my posts made a push that influenced development, maybe it's just coincidence.

The fact of the matter is, nearly any large online community becomes more and more volatile, as they become more passionate. When I make a mistake in a piece of artwork, or a piece of music I've composed, I don't have thousands upon thousands of people hurling insults at me, telling me I don't know what I am doing, or that I am "scraping the bottom of the barrel". 

I'm good with constructive criticism, but even I would crack at the seams on occasion, if this was being hurled at me on a daily basis. It doesn't matter if you "know what you are getting into" when it comes making an online game, people are going to lose their cool. Point me in the direction of a gaming community as rapidly growing as warframe or other mmo's are, where no one on the Dev team has had a moment that struck a nerve, when "enough was enough" on a given day.

There is a lot under the hood to consider, on a human level, beyond "I am not getting the game I want" at the end of the day.

 

I concur. Just as a small comparison, I used to be an admin for an online gaming server. We got both praises and condemnation, and those negative responses can truly pile up within your mind. It's not a fun thing... and my server was a small one. I hate to think of the amount of stress the Warframe devs put up with.

Edited July 5, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[DirkDeadeye]

I'm sure they'd be much more inclined towards acting on user suggestions if craptacular threads like this weren't getting love fests.  It's hard enough to act on player suggestions as it is with out watching players gobbling up utter nonsense that's merely playing to player discontent with well known design problems without actually attempting to suggest actionable changes.

 

They have two community managers and a S#&$ load of moderators. Doesn't take a whole lot of effort to collate that feedback into a word document instead of reading through a bunch of conjecture and arguing. They pay people do to do that. They can get people to do it for free. Especially when the authors clean up their suggestions_on_the_first_post.

[DirkDeadeye]

I wouldn't call manning up and giving a well thought out apology as "backpedalling", especially when his initial response was pretty damned spot on; albeit perhaps a little too strong.

 

But you can't really blame him, nor any of the other devs. They've been at work on this game for years, have been working constantly to give consistent updates and tons of content literally every single week. Yeah, there are flaws. Every single one of the devs on that couch have stated that. The game isn't perfect; hell it isn't even finished. But it IS their brainchild; something they've been working on for a pretty large chunk of their adult lives.And to have someone come around and give a question laced with derogatory insults towards their intelligence and the game they've lovingly worked on for so long...Yeah, I think Steve showed alot of restraint, really.

 

As for "still ignoring feedback", I disagree. Just because they aren't immediately implementing our ideas without a second thought doesn't mean they're "ignoring" it. If they constantly "ignore" feedback like you say they are, then many of the changes that have been introduced wouldn't be here in the first place. Know how aura mods give mod capacity? That used to not be a thing. But the community rallied together, DE heard, and bam. That's just one example out of many.

 

Quite frankly, you don't really sound like you're interested in even being heard. I can't help but think the second they implement something you want, you'll yell at them for taking your idea. That's how you currently sound like right now. You keep making assumptions that you're "not being heard" and that we're "lowly peasants" and that the devs have "egos" that they have yet to actually showcase. They're proud of their game, but I have yet to see any of them show any sort of inkling that they're looking down at any of us. Yeah - Steve called bullS#&$ on an inflammatory question. But guess what? He answered it in full, and admitted he could've done better with the system in question. How is that egotistical?

 

You guys keep saying immediately. This game has been in beta for almost two years. The same suggestions manifest themselves in a cycle every 6 months. I've seen it. Instead we just get more layers of hastily produced crap, instead of enriching the core game. Despite objections, despite concerns.

 

As far as the entitlement, and derogatory nature of what we say, it's a symptom of giving somone 'founder' status. And constantly pumping money into something..It's a matter of trust, and when they're not holding their end of the bargin, you have hell to pay. And you're gonna hear it. And that's what happens when you design a game like this.

Edited July 5, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[Aggh]

They have two community managers and a S#&$ load of moderators. Doesn't take a whole lot of effort to collate that feedback into a word document instead of reading through a bunch of conjecture and arguing. They pay people do to do that. They can get people to do it for free. Especially when the authors clean up their suggestions_on_the_first_post.

The point is that it's very hard to take people seriously when nonsense like this thread gets taken seriously.  You are what you eat.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Aggh

[43Emprah]

You guys keep saying immediately. This game has been in beta for almost two years. The same suggestions manifest themselves in a cycle every 6 months. I've seen it. Instead we just get more layers of hastily produced crap, instead of enriching the core game. Despite objections, despite concerns.

 

As far as the entitlement, and derogatory nature of what we say, it's a symptom of giving somone 'founder' status. And constantly pumping money into something..It's a matter of trust, and when they're not holding their end of the bargin, you have hell to pay. And you're gonna hear it. And that's what happens when you design a game like this.

I am not asking the following question in a condescending manner, I genuinely am not. I am honestly curious.

If this is how you feel about the game, that the devs have no clue what they are doing, that you as a consumer are ignored, and that all of the content we receive, is "hastily produced crap", why are you still here? What keeps you coming to these forums, what keeps you logging into the game?

These seem to be issues you have with the core of the game, from the getgo. Down to its very skeleton. You seem to heavily dislike the devs, and don't seem to have much to say about the game in a positive lght. Granted, I haven't combed through your post history, to search for positive feedback, alongside your criticisms, but I am genuinely in awe, that someone who seems to dislike this game, and the people behind it, with such fervor, that you haven't moved on to another title.

Edit: not sure why the formatting in thos post went to hell halfway through. Very odd.

 

Edited July 5, 2014 by 43Emprah

[Rinari_Lizen]

Here are my scattered thoughts from my midnight internet crawl and finally getting on the forums.

 

I feel this useless arguing is just going to go on for far too long. The developers are making the game so let them make it.

 

 

People play to obtain drops. Mods are drops. Now this is a point of contention, but I am willing to bet some people are tired of the game and find themselves only playing to obtain said drops. The problem being the gameplay in and of itself is not satisfying. The drops/rewards are acting as the driving force for player retention, instead of creating experiences that are rewarding and letting the drops compliment those experiences. This is the very idea that lead people to begin rushing en masse. People rush because they do not want to waste the time, energy (in game and out) as well as ammo when they can just reach extraction and receive their reward. Sometimes there is a boss in the way and players will take an extra two seconds to kill said boss, then proceed to rush to the exit. A many of bosses are designed with invincible phases, which only highlight the issue at hand and people become frustrated. People go fast because it is a means of coping with the mechanics that cause them to second guess whether they are they are having fun. Players seek the end goal and find nothing in between to be rewarding.

 

 

If you play any MMO, FPS, Dungeon Crawler, then you know that there is grinding. Grinding is an integral part of any game, it allows for difficult progression. I personally would not want to play a game where you do one thing and oops, your overpowered.

 

The way it works is that you find a frame or weapon you like. you build the frame or weapon the way you want it to so you can play the game you want to.

 

The one problem of skill trees is that they prevent customization to a point and makes things more linear and less unique. Say you got a frame you want to build, you have to build it according to the tree and not to what you want to do. Say you don't want to use a certain ability, but to get where you want in the tree you have go through that ability to get there. With skill trees it all boils down to what equipment your using because people will find best way to build always.

 

And no, I am not bashing the system he though up I am just stating a problem a lot of games have by using the skill tree system.

 

You can have a little fun by challenging yourself by taking mods out and figuring out new builds you can do

 

I would write a lot more if I was not so tired.