Frame Campaigns

[Probably_Asleep]

--REVISED AFTER LISTENING TO INPUT--
The general idea remains the same: Make a Campaign Mode for each Warframe.
The mode would be selectable from the Steel Path drop down in Navigation. Available nodes would then become challenges specific to your equipped Warframe. (Does not distinguish between Original/Prime variants) Those Challenges would be something like...

• 1 of each Standard Mission Type
  • For example: E Prime covers the Exterminate type, so Mariana is excluded
  • Roughly aiming for of 2-3 normal missions per planet
  • Some types might be repeated if it's different enough (Like Disruption missions from Grineer/Corpus/Infested factions)
• All Assassination Missions
  • This would be a great time to rework some of them!
  • Like with The Sergeant for instance, how about making him a proper sniper-fight?
• Rank-5 Open World Bounties
  • Cetus/Fortuna/Necralisk/Chrysalith/Sanctum Anatomica
  • Appear as Nodes next to Open World Hubs so you can start it directly from Navigation (since there's only one Bounty to choose anyway)
• Sanctuary Onslaught / Arbitration Hybrid
  • Efficiency goes down at a manageable rate, but levels increase faster and Arbitration rules apply
  • Must reach Zone 8
• Each Planet has either an Archwing Mission or an Empyrean (Railjack) Mission
• Archon Showdown Gauntlet
  • No side missions, just the Archons
  • Maybe instead just have nodes on Earth, Mars, and Jupiter where you fight them
• Clem / Maroo Hybrid
  • Starts off as Clem mission, but Maroo interrupts to say there might be an Ayatan Statue there
  • 75% chance of her being correct, repeatable quest
• Void Fissure Junctions
  • Specter still there trying to kill you, but Corrupted appear
  • Doesn't crack relics, but you get 3x Void Traces
• Gustag Three / Stalker / Zenuka Crossfire Battle
  • Ordis says you received three redundant anonymous messages saying to go somewhere to settle things, it must have been sent repeatedly by mistake
  • It wasn't a mistake, all three accidentally called you out to the same place and time; they're just as surprised as you are
• Acolyte Raid
  • Lotus found out where the Acolytes are headquartered
  • Take each one out quick enough and it's a 1-on-1, or wait for all 7 to arrive for a special reward
• Big Bosses (Eidolons / Orbs / Jordas)
  • Can be done at any time while in Campaign Mode
  • Rewards are less for Eidolons & Exploiter, maybe 50% drop rate because it's not time/event gated
• Fomorian Sabotage / Razorback Armada
  • Nodes always available, but rewards are only blueprint components
  • You still need the gear items for these missions, so you may not be able to run them until the next event
• Yourself
  • After you've done all 12 of the above challenge categories, you'll can face yourself, uses the Citadel room from the Simulacrum
  • Opponent uses your most-used equipment and copies your Warframe's current loadout

_Original:

Spoiler

Okay here's the challenge:

Beat all content using one "Framily" (Original/Prime Variants). The game would have additional UI features and/or a new console in the Orbiter to help you keep track of what content you've done with your currently equipped frame. Content would include:

• Star Chart and Steel Path Nodes
• Ranks 1-5 Bounties in Ostron, Solaris United, Entrati, The Holdfasts, and Cavia
• Reach Zone 8 in Sanctuary Onslaught and Elite Sanctuary Onslaught
• One Arbitration
• All 3 Missions of one Sortie
• All 3 Missions of one Archon Hunt
• 6 Consecutive Rounds In Duviri Circuit and Steel Path Circuit
• Railjack Nodes
• One Nightmare Mission
• One Kuva Siphon and One Kuva Flood Mission
• Three Invasions Missions
• Lith/Meso/Neo/Axi Fissure Missions (Normal and Steel Path)
• Help Clem
• Salvage Ayatan Statue for Maroo
• Defeat all Specters on all Junctions (Normal and Steel Path)
• Defeat the Stalker, Gustag Three, and Zanuka
• Defeat Acolytes Angst, Malice, Mania, Misery, Torment, and Violence
• Take down Teralyst
• Take down Gantulyst
• Take down Hydrolyst
• Take down The Profit Taker
• Take down Exploiter Orb
• Take down Mutalist Alad V
• Take down Jordas Golem
• Complete a Fomorian Sabotage Mission
• Complete a Razorback Armada Mission
• Do a Daily, Weekly, and Elite Weekly Nightwave Challenge
• Fully Synthesize a Cephalon Simaris Target
• Complete an Abyssal Zone Mission
• Defeat Hunhow in Cephalon Suda's Datascape

^{(I think that's everything... am I forgetting anything? I'm not counting the temporary event content like Dog Days, and I'm not counting Conclave, because neither of those are reliably accessible. Incidentally, I am counting Fomorian/Razorback because they will be available eventually if you keep checking)}

All non-boss content would be Steel Path difficulty at a standard level (say 200?). Bosses like Eidolons could be upgraded somewhat, but it would have to account for the limits of Amps and build options. There could also be some frame-specific changes to make the content more engaging. For example in the Mag Campaign, melee enemies could use toxin weapons because the enemy knows that's a weakness of hers and melee units won't get stopped by Counter Pulse. Also, Mag is very energy-thirsty, so perhaps there could be some enemies with a special weapon that can shoot Energy Orbs and make them explode. The Dialog could be more specific from Assassination targets as well. Finally, there would be a lot of Lore opportunities, like how/why the Archons chose the Prime Warframe bodies they're using, and why various relays have statues of a particular frame.

And now for the (also revised) rewards/reasons section...

Rewards:

• Augment Adapters
  • Because there are 12(ish) challenge categories, we can divide it into fourths. Every 3 challenges completed unlocks one of the Augments for your Warframe
  • Augments become toggles next to the ability icons in your Arsenal; Augment Mods may still be used and where applicable will stack with toggle effect.
• Warframe Mastery
  • Mastering this Warframe lets you use it with more deliberate efficiency and performance
  • Arsenal now shows sliders that let you change movement speed by +/- 25%, and another for Ability Efficiency and Max Efficiency by +/- 15%.
• True Potential Unlocked
  • When you defeat yourself in the final Challenge, your Warframe gains the ability to get to Rank 40 like Necramechs
  • (Asked to confirm first) When you use this benefit, your Warframe loses all of its existing Forma; you'll need at least 5 more to get to Rank 40
• Exclusive Primed Mods
  • Completing the first Campaign with any frame gets you Primed Stretch (+70% Primed Range) and Primed Streamline (+55% Ability Efficiency)
  • Subsequent completions give you 100,000 Endo
• LORE
  • As you start, progress, and complete the Campaign, you get to learn more about your Warframe
  • Codex Entries (and ideally cutscenes) would occur showing the person who became that Warframe, as well as what they did after Operators fell asleep

Reasons:

• This would revitalize old content and unused frames
• There wouldn't be much extra development needed
• Spark discussions on how to get good with all frames (rather than just what "meta" frames to use to trivialize content)
• Help settle the problem with Augments being used as a substitute for serious rewords
• Campaigns could be released one frame at a time along with a serious rework where needed
• Improving people's fondness and skill with other frames will diversify the Squad play experience
• Give people something new to look forward to (instead of: "What's the new frame/content?" It can be: "What's the backstory for this OLD beloved frame?")

_Original:

Spoiler

And now the big question: What's in it for me? Good question! Let's see if this would be worth it for you (aside from just the sense of accomplishment):

• Augment Widgets
  After completing the campaign, all instances of that frame will be able to toggle their Augments on and off from the Arsenal. Mod slots will no longer need to be used for your augments to be active. (Though in some cases Augments may stack with their widgets, so don't just throw them away)
• Efficiency Boost
  All frames of this type will now have a maximum of 90% Ability Efficiency, and an innate +15% Ability Efficiency active at all times
• Rank Extension
  All frames of this type can now be Forma'd up to 5 times to increase the max rank to 40 just like Nemesis Weapons and Necramechs
• Focus Magnification
  Focus Lenses installed on this type of frame now generate double Focus Points
• Mobility Boost
  All frames of this type now have +10% Parkour Velocity, -10% Friction, +10% Slide, +10% Sprint Speed, +10% Jump Height, and +1 Second Aim Glide Duration
• Exclusive Primed Mods
  The Lotus will congratulate you and give you Primed Stretch (+70% Range), and Teshin will give you Primed Streamline (+55% Ability Efficiency). This only happens the first time you complete a campaign; other completions will award you 50,000 Endo from Lotus and another 50k from Teshin.

 

And for the other big question: What's in it for DE? I think they'd like this even more than the players would for the following reasons:

• It would revitalize all existing content
• It would spark new interest (& probably new purchases) in old/ignored frames
• There's barely any work involved (a couple new UI's, some extra account activity metrics, couple mods, and a few changes to the Arsenal specs)
• A lot more Warframe-related content on YouTube would get created
• People would finally stop complaining about how Augments shouldn't be Mods (because DE could say: "You want them by default? Work for it!")
• This would encourage more Squad play and diversify what frames show up in Squads (maybe)
• Every time a new Warframe comes out, all content would get a boost to play rate

 

Before you go accusing me of having an ulterior motive for suggesting this, I'll go ahead and out myself right from the get-go. I've already done all this with Mag/Prime. It's been the way I've played the game from day 1. It started as a challenge-accepted from a friend who said I couldn't do it, and it's been so fun that I can't stop. So if they did implement this feature, then either I'd already have all the rewards (if this sort of data is being tracked already), OR I'd just have to run through everything again with my Mag(s). If it's the 2nd possibility, I still wouldn't mind because I already have builds to beat all the content. So yes! I do have an agenda in suggesting this. But I also know that it's been super fun. The most joy I've had out of this game has been trying to build my Mag to take on content she's disadvantaged against. I can say with certainty that this is a fun way to play Warframe (at least with Mag, maybe the story would be different with some other frames).

(I'll probably have to clean this up if I keep making revisions. For now there's just a then-vs-now so I only need to include the original next the the current)

Edited January 23 by (NSW)Probably_Asleep
Collaboration

[quxier]

OH, boy, I don't know where to start because this topic is soooo wrong.

51 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• 6 Consecutive Rounds In Duviri Circuit and Steel Path Circuit

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Defeat the Stalker, Gustag Three, and Zanuka

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Complete a Fomorian Sabotage Mission
• Complete a Razorback Armada Mission

That's random and shouldn't be included.

You can wait for Formorian/Razorback and do it with all frames but that's a lot of waiting.

Stalker & co may not spawn, making you unable to finish the challenge without, yes, you guessed it right, another time-gated, random item from Baroo Cateer (Beacons).

Circuit is another yet random stuff. Knowing how I get a lot of the same weapons, there is no same chances for frame to appear as well.

52 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Salvage Ayatan Statue for Maroo

So... I have to just go with certain frame? What's the challenge? Or do you mean Ayatan hunt (mission)?

53 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Defeat Hunhow in Cephalon Suda's Datascape

Do... I have to do quest again?

59 minutes ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Okay here's the challenge:

Ok, where do you start talking about challenge? It's just HORRIBLY time consuming. Except maybe few solo only stuff you get easy mod with squad.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

And now the big question: What's in it for me? Good question! Let's see if this would be worth it for you (aside from just the sense of accomplishment):

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Mobility Boost
• All frames of this type now have +10% Parkour Velocity, -10% Friction, +10% Slide, +10% Sprint Speed, +10% Jump Height, and +1 Second Aim Glide Duration

Let me take my ruler, stoper and maybe some other tools. +10% speed is nothing. I would want e.g. 60%.. What's the point of speed boost if I have to use another speed boost? There is no point of it.

Some stat are missing. For example +1s aim glide is nothing without gravity mod.

I want some stats decreased or stay the same NOT increased. I mostly don't like Parkour sources as it increase my rolls. I like my rolls to be shorter.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Exclusive Primed Mods
The Lotus will congratulate you and give you Primed Stretch (+70% Range), and Teshin will give you Primed Streamline (+55% Ability Efficiency). This only happens the first time you complete a campaign; other completions will award you 50,000 Endo from Lotus and another 50k from Teshin.

I would probably run it once for range & efficiency. Maybe.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Focus Magnification
Focus Lenses installed on this type of frame now generate double Focus Points

At this point just any lens is enough because you get a lot of orbs.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• Rank Extension
• All frames of this type can now be Forma'd up to 5 times to increase the max rank to 40 just like Nemesis Weapons and Necramechs

I mean... great... but it won't happen. Not a chance. So you forma 5 times and get 80 points from formaing + 14-18 from Aura. That probably will future proof any build so you don't have to reforma it. And DE likes when you reforma, buy new frame/weapon etc.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

 

• Augment Widgets
  After completing the campaign, all instances of that frame will be able to toggle their Augments on and off from the Arsenal. Mod slots will no longer need to be used for your augments to be active. (Though in some cases Augments may stack with their widgets, so don't just throw them away)

So, "powercreep". Not going to happen.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

 

And for the other big question: What's in it for DE? I think they'd like this even more than the players would for the following reasons:

• It would revitalize all existing content
• It would spark new interest (& probably new purchases) in old/ignored frames

And do we want this? Random frame leeching in public? No.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• This would encourage more Squad play and diversify what frames show up in Squads (maybe)

So you encourage frames that are inactive so you get rewards...

1 hour ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

• People would finally stop complaining about how Augments shouldn't be Mods (because DE could say: "You want them by default? Work for it!")

NO! Work?! It should be illegal. You want force a player to waste huge amount of time on such small rewards (compared to time)? It's max few step ahead huge randomness & time gates. It's such low & dirty approach.

It's like Rivens. You get Slivers, exchange for random riven, do a challenge and maybe get riven for a weapon you want. Then it's almost useless because it either roll stupid bonuses or bonuses are small. Now you go farm/buy Kuva so you can play one armed bandit.

Circuit is like this. You need to do ~33 missions to get 2nd incarnon. That's hours playing smae nodes... Then you have to wait another week... or weeks.

 

[(XBOX)TENr0nin]

I like the idea of frame mastery and an associated quest but mostly the associated quest. I feel like there are so many ways to set your warframe apart from the pack already build wise (meta excluded) that having a few bumps to stats is an insult to whatever grind we’ll have to slog through. Maybe a quest like the loyalty missions from mass effect where you unlock your prime frame’s umbra instinct and you get a little signs for the frame. 

[Probably_Asleep]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

OH, boy, I don't know where to start because this topic is soooo wrong.

quxier! Hey long time no... interchange? I always enjoy your takes.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

That's random and shouldn't be included.
You can wait for Formorian/Razorback and do it with all frames but that's a lot of waiting.
Stalker & co may not spawn, making you unable to finish the challenge without, yes, you guessed it right, another time-gated, random item from Baroo Cateer (Beacons).
Circuit is another yet random stuff. Knowing how I get a lot of the same weapons, there is no same chances for frame to appear as well

It's my fault that I didn't actually think about clarifying this, but the campaign is something you would not expect to grind through in a single weekend ((or week) or even month). There are essentially two types of grinds in Warframe: "marathon," and "routine." A marathon grind would be something like a Kuva Lich. You can just start, grind, and finish within one play session. Maxing out an Arcane Energize on the other hand, now that's a routine grind. You just make it a daily routine and every now and then you see the fruits of your labor. (Unless you just cough up Platinum to pay for someone else's effort; a completely fine choice that I just don't find personally appealing)

This campaign would fall under the routine grind category. Just like how you might think: "Oh it's nighttime on the Plains! I should do an Eidolon hunt rather than what I was originally planning to do..." It would in addition to that be like: "Oh my favorite frame is available in Duviri! I should get that box checked today."

10 hours ago, quxier said:

So... I have to just go with certain frame? What's the challenge? Or do you mean Ayatan hunt (mission)?

Not every task is going to require meditating under a waterfall and going through a rock'n'roll training montage to reawaken your fighting spirit. (But if you want to play "Eye of the Tiger" before heading out I won't stop you)

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Do... I have to do quest again?

Relays let you replay this battle in Cephalon Suda's room. It's the "Incident Archive" off to the left.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, where do you start talking about challenge? It's just HORRIBLY time consuming. Except maybe few solo only stuff you get easy mod with squad.

For starters, I already know it's a fun route to take because I've done it myself solo, so I can say from experience that it's more entertaining than what you're imagining. Frames all have advantages and disadvantages, and going through all the content will vividly highlight those strengths and weaknesses. I've learned a wide array of Mag's secret skills to help compensate for her weaknesses, and tried many unorthodox builds. It's made the game much more entertaining than what many people describe. (Seeing as many people just look up an ideal build, copy it, run through the content, and don't feel much by the end) I think as long as someone like a frame, then they'll like doing the campaign for that frame. But I will admit that people who aren't especially passionate about any one character and just want to complete everything as fast as possible to say they've done it, would hate a mode like this.

I guess there could be something to be said though for making it more interesting in some areas. If the Star Chart had a "Campaign Mode" for example that buffed enemies against your particular frame, then that could be fun. I'd love to run through it all again with something like "After 3 minutes, Enemy Attacks have Toxin Damage." Or maybe: "Shield Gate Duration Cut to 50%." They'd have to be disadvantages that still let you play with that frame's style (so something like "Enemies are Unaffected by Mag's Abilities" would make the campaign pointless), but yeah I think there's potential for making it different in a campaign mode.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Let me take my ruler, stoper and maybe some other tools. +10% speed is nothing. I would want e.g. 60%.. What's the point of speed boost if I have to use another speed boost? There is no point of it.

Some stat are missing. For example +1s aim glide is nothing without gravity mod.

I want some stats decreased or stay the same NOT increased. I mostly don't like Parkour sources as it increase my rolls. I like my rolls to be shorter.

There's some boring math involved, but Parkour Velocity has a bigger impact than the number itself. Increasing the velocity of a projectile by 10% doesn't mean it will only fly 10% further. That's why the yellow Archon Shards are noticeable at only 15% increase. And Sprint Speed probably won't be noticeable due to diminishing returns, but it would be nice for builds where you need all of your Mod space for something else. I personally notice the difference between getting somewhere in 9.09 minutes as opposed to 10 minutes.

Aim glide +1s would be more useful if you paired it with Aero Vantage, I agree. An additional second is more than what the Mobilize Mod offers. And that's kind of what makes all of these a big deal. They'd be permanent boosts that are each comparable to a lot of existing Mods, either without sacrificing your Mod slots or paired along with them. Though I suppose what might make them more appealing would be if these boosts were added to the Warframe's base stats. Then the +% Mods would actually multiply on top of these.

The roll length is actually a good point. I'll give you that one. I hardly use rolling, but when I do I have an intuitive sense of where I'll end up and it's disorienting when that doesn't line up. I could see there being a use for a toggle for that.

11 hours ago, quxier said:

I would probably run it once for range & efficiency. Maybe.

Same! (Minus the maybe)

11 hours ago, quxier said:

At this point just any lens is enough because you get a lot of orbs.

I've already maxed out my schools so this one doesn't hold much appeal to me, but I remember when I was maxing those schools out running Stealth runs on Adaro constantly, I would have a boost to this. Now I just have a spattering of lenses on a bunch of equipment so I can get all the "Represent" items for each school (and I'm in no hurry to get all of those).

11 hours ago, quxier said:

I mean... great... but it won't happen. Not a chance. So you forma 5 times and get 80 points from formaing + 14-18 from Aura. That probably will future proof any build so you don't have to reforma it. And DE likes when you reforma, buy new frame/weapon etc.

It might be the way you say, but it might also be better for DE. They went with the Nemesis Weapons (in my opinion) because it guarantees 5 Forma from each player on each weapon. While it's true that some frames in your Arsenal might have more than 5 Forma (I have one Mag Prime with 11 and another with 13, the first because I was doing a bunch of experiments on it and the other because I wanted it to keep priority in SP Circuit), I think most people don't have 5 Forma on most of their frames. But if there was an extra 2000 MR points per frame, and a huge boost to capacity, then I think DE would see a lot more Forma purchases from this.

It all comes down to how many Forma on average are on everyone's Warframes right now. If it's <=5, DE wins.

11 hours ago, quxier said:

So, "powercreep". Not going to happen.

An Augment is a "sidegrade," not an upgrade, and often comes at the cost of a serious rework. The unfortunate reality is that "powercreep" does happen with each update. But Augments don't update a frame to keep up, they just diversify their options.

11 hours ago, quxier said:

And do we want this? Random frame leeching in public? No.

So you encourage frames that are inactive so you get rewards...

That sounds a little unfair in my opinion. What obligation do other players have to choose the frames that are most convenient for me? I play Mag, so a Healer Frame would be a wonderful teammate, but why should they change their selection for me? I don't want that expectation placed on me, so I can't place it on them.

To be fair, I only play solo, so I don't actually have to deal with player toxicity, but I think it should be a given that everyone should feel welcome to take whatever frame they prefer into a mission without having other players measure their worth.

And also to be fairer, if friends are playing together then it makes sense for them to discuss how they want to structure their team. (Or if good-natured strangers are playing, they can negotiate who plays with what and for how long) But I think those decisions should be made with everyone's input and consent.

11 hours ago, quxier said:

NO! Work?! It should be illegal. You want force a player to waste huge amount of time on such small rewards (compared to time)? It's max few step ahead huge randomness & time gates. It's such low & dirty approach.

It's like Rivens. You get Slivers, exchange for random riven, do a challenge and maybe get riven for a weapon you want. Then it's almost useless because it either roll stupid bonuses or bonuses are small. Now you go farm/buy Kuva so you can play one armed bandit.

Circuit is like this. You need to do ~33 missions to get 2nd incarnon. That's hours playing smae nodes... Then you have to wait another week... or weeks.

I mean, this is the section of what DE gets out of this so...
But also the only way it would be "forcing" players is if the rewards were so worthwhile that players couldn't refuse, so it's not that players are forced into doing something for small rewards. The players who find the rewards worthwhile will chose to get them, nothing changes for the others who think it's easier to just use Mod Augments, and the compulsive completionists are never going to be happy anyway.

I'll also reiterate that these are not small rewards. Permanent Mod-free stat boosts, extra Mod slots, greater capacity, more MR points, and exclusive Primed Mods. If there was 100 hours of grind to get even one of those things then it would be worth it for me. I grinded Railjack Intrinsics just for a boost to Archwing speed and I was happy for it. If I got essentially 4 extra Mod slots (more like 2 in practice because that's how many Augments I usually use), then that would be an insane upgrade for me. I can't think of any update that would add more power to my builds.

You're right about Rivens. It's hard to motivate myself to do Riven grinding. But there is one key difference between that in this. Namely, this isn't a random grind and Rivens are. There are a few tasks that need to be monitored like which Warframe is available in Circuit, and whether or not it's a Fomorian vs Razorback. But if you just keep an eye out then they'll eventually become available without you having to do any work. A Riven on the other hand you have to get, unlock, dispose of, repeat. It's a grindy RNG process that builds your hopes up and then squashes them. But in a campaign like this it's likely that by the time you do all the other tasks you'll have already got the opportunities to do the temporary quests. But even if you check every single box and now you're just waiting on your Warframe to come up in Duviri, where's the grind? Just take a look in Navigation and then go do something else. That's way better than a Riven.

 

I suppose it's possible that I'm just built different. I've been playing games now for 35 years, so my level of patience could go toe-to-toe with a Buddhist Monk. Because of that, something like this sounds like nothing more than an incidental reward. I already am trying to clear everything. I already am challenging myself to do it with an character restriction. I'm 30k points away from MR 28 and I haven't played a single mission with any frame besides Mag/Prime. (Not counting the Umbra thing where I made sure not to kill anyone) I've still got over 100 weapons I need to find and grind to make it to MR 30, so this campaign idea really sounds like no effort at all.

But I'm actually sure it would be fun! The best moments I've had in this game were when Mag was not the right choice for the mission. I wouldn't just encourage other players to try it, I'd suggest they do it solo! I suppose I can't say for certain that it's even possible with other frames. Maybe Mag is just the best frame in terms of jack-of-all-trades, and when other people think about doing all this with other characters it sounds utterly impossible. I don't know; I know Mag can do it and I know it's fun.

 

Thanks as always for your honest input quxier!

[Probably_Asleep]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)TENr0nin said:

I like the idea of frame mastery and an associated quest but mostly the associated quest. I feel like there are so many ways to set your warframe apart from the pack already build wise (meta excluded) that having a few bumps to stats is an insult to whatever grind we’ll have to slog through. Maybe a quest like the loyalty missions from mass effect where you unlock your prime frame’s umbra instinct and you get a little signs for the frame. 

I forgot about Umbra Instinct! That's just... such a good idea... I wish I thought of it. Let me find a hat so I can tip it to you...

The stat boosts may seem unimpressive, but hear me out! Let's say you shot something 45 degrees upward at 100 ft/s. On a flat surface, that would land 310.8 ft. away. But if you increased the velocity 110 ft/s, then it would increase that to 376.1 feet! That's a 21% increase in distance.

And let's say you're already a full sprint and have 10 seconds to respond to something that could occur anywhere around you. At a Sprint of 1.0, you can cover an area of 17,671.5 m² in that time. With a 10% boost to Sprint, your area of coverage goes up to 21,382.5 m²! That's yet again an increase of 21%, this time in area of coverage.

So in both cases, 10% boost in ability grants an over 20% boost to overall performance; the benefit is double what's on paper. Obviously those ratios will diminish when stacked with similar buffs, but then you get into the value of min/maxing which is a different story altogether.

But the thing I'd be most excited about would be the increase to Mod slots. Every Mod slot has enormous potential, and for the older frame users the Augment system is such a burden. My all-rounder build for Mag Prime uses 3 Augments for example. If I could move those functions out of the Mod system then my options would skyrocket! I really can't think of anything better for my frames than adding Mod slots. The Archon Shard system was also exciting for that reason, but it nearly takes 5 Tauforged Shards just to compete with many Mods.

 

I do like what you're saying though of making it more of a quest format. quxier above got me thinking along those lines too, that it would be cool if it actually was content tailored to a particular frame. This is really wishful thinking, but if they actually did make it a lore event then I would be on cloud 9. If you could learn more about the person that became your Warframe, why they developed the powers they did, what the Warframe did between the Old War and the Awakening, as well as how it feels now being your vessel, then wow. I'm so late in the game now that I really miss quests, and I would LOVE a quest based on my favorite frame.

[Raarsi]

I wouldn't mind this on a SUBSTANTIALLY smaller level, both in challenges and in benefits.

For challenges, I'm thinking like maybe 3-5 smaller things like what we see for the Nightwave challenges, so like X number of missions or kill a set number of enemies on this frame, with something like Baro's dumb defense mission where you can only use Inaros or Inaros Prime is probably the limit of difficulty for an example of a challenge for this.

As for rewards, I'd rather prefer cosmetics, decorations, basically non-combat stuff.  If there absolutely had to be some sort of combat-boosting rewards, then I'd be looking more at prime boosts where it's just minor perks like energy capacity or passive defenses.

To top it off, it could be something seasonal, giving challenges for only a couple of frames at a time every so often and then adding a couple more every so often.  This would allow devs more time to not just cater challenges to the selected frames, but it would also allow highlight whatever issues those frames may have and perhaps even incentivizing readjusting or reworking those frames as needed more easily than looking at player statistics or going through the nonsensical masses of white noise that are these forums.

[quxier]

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

That's random and shouldn't be included.
You can wait for Formorian/Razorback and do it with all frames but that's a lot of waiting.
Stalker & co may not spawn, making you unable to finish the challenge without, yes, you guessed it right, another time-gated, random item from Baroo Cateer (Beacons).
Circuit is another yet random stuff. Knowing how I get a lot of the same weapons, there is no same chances for frame to appear as well

It's my fault that I didn't actually think about clarifying this, but the campaign is something you would not expect to grind through in a single weekend ((or week) or even month). There are essentially two types of grinds in Warframe: "marathon," and "routine." A marathon grind would be something like a Kuva Lich. You can just start, grind, and finish within one play session. Maxing out an Arcane Energize on the other hand, now that's a routine grind. You just make it a daily routine and every now and then you see the fruits of your labor. (Unless you just cough up Platinum to pay for someone else's effort; a completely fine choice that I just don't find personally appealing)

This campaign would fall under the routine grind category. Just like how you might think: "Oh it's nighttime on the Plains! I should do an Eidolon hunt rather than what I was originally planning to do..." It would in addition to that be like: "Oh my favorite frame is available in Duviri! I should get that box checked today."

I still don't like artificially extending grind to this extent. Let's take Eidolons for example. For Energize you need to kill/capture 3 Eidolons. You need to be at right time of day. Then we have low drop chance (5%). No matter how good you are, you can still not get even chance to beat Eidolons. Some people likes to get lucky, but not all.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

This campaign would fall under the routine grind category. Just like how you might think: "Oh it's nighttime on the Plains! I should do an Eidolon hunt rather than what I was originally planning to do..." It would in addition to that be like: "Oh my favorite frame is available in Duviri! I should get that box checked today."

I don't think like this. I think "oh, I need Arcane X, how do I get it?" Then I proceed to read wiki (or something) and farm it directly (if possible) or try to buy (if it's not huge price).

I can have fun in some place, e.g. Duvir but that's my decision that shouldn't be dictated by some time gate.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

o... I have to just go with certain frame? What's the challenge? Or do you mean Ayatan hunt (mission)?

Not every task is going to require meditating under a waterfall and going through a rock'n'roll training montage to reawaken your fighting spirit. (But if you want to play "Eye of the Tiger" before heading out I won't stop you)

That's... "fine" but why? I mean, I can put huge list of "tasks" that are just time wasters, like: "feed your Helminth as Citrine" or "play song as Xaku".

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

Do... I have to do quest again?

Relays let you replay this battle in Cephalon Suda's room. It's the "Incident Archive" off to the left.

Good to knows. I need to try it some day.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

Ok, where do you start talking about challenge? It's just HORRIBLY time consuming. Except maybe few solo only stuff you get easy mod with squad.

For starters, I already know it's a fun route to take because I've done it myself solo, so I can say from experience that it's more entertaining than what you're imagining. Frames all have advantages and disadvantages, and going through all the content will vividly highlight those strengths and weaknesses. I've learned a wide array of Mag's secret skills to help compensate for her weaknesses, and tried many unorthodox builds. It's made the game much more entertaining than what many people describe. (Seeing as many people just look up an ideal build, copy it, run through the content, and don't feel much by the end) I think as long as someone like a frame, then they'll like doing the campaign for that frame. But I will admit that people who aren't especially passionate about any one character and just want to complete everything as fast as possible to say they've done it, would hate a mode like this.

It can be fun. I enjoyed theory cracting, for example:

- Disarming Xaku that uses 1 for proc, 2 to disarm

- Xaku/1 with riding Ghoulsaw

- How to make low-fire rate Grimoire powerful enough. I'm at Sevagoth Crit augment + Avenger + tons of crit/multi on Grimoire.

Or I've enjoyed some little bit advanced techniques:

- slam/melee canceling via rolls

- Kullervo/Teleport + Zephyr/Hover

And more.

Those could be fun. However beating same level again and again is not fun. There are 27 Normal exterminates. With decent weapon you can beat them with any frame.

Steel path is just "more powerful enemies" so bring more power, armor strip or something.

 

So I don't hate it because it's longer. I hate it because there is massive redundancy (very similar "challenge").

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

 

I guess there could be something to be said though for making it more interesting in some areas. If the Star Chart had a "Campaign Mode" for example that buffed enemies against your particular frame, then that could be fun. I'd love to run through it all again with something like "After 3 minutes, Enemy Attacks have Toxin Damage." Or maybe: "Shield Gate Duration Cut to 50%." They'd have to be disadvantages that still let you play with that frame's style (so something like "Enemies are Unaffected by Mag's Abilities" would make the campaign pointless), but yeah I think there's potential for making it different in a campaign mode.

That's still redundant option. Like in arbitration, "beat each mission type with X debuff but with Y frame" would be fine. Doing it like, I don't know, 10-30 times would be very redundant.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

At this point just any lens is enough because you get a lot of orbs.

I've already maxed out my schools so this one doesn't hold much appeal to me, but I remember when I was maxing those schools out running Stealth runs on Adaro constantly, I would have a boost to this. Now I just have a spattering of lenses on a bunch of equipment so I can get all the "Represent" items for each school (and I'm in no hurry to get all of those).

At that time you have to do this stuff. Now If you play long enough and/or in special places you can farm eat with base Lenses. For example Thrax give you 2.5k, Angel 15k, orb 5k. Simple mission can yield e.g. 30-40k standing for equipped school. That's 1/10 of 400k standing cap (I'm at ~385k at 26MR). I'm at 3M in Zenurik.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

So, "powercreep". Not going to happen.

An Augment is a "sidegrade," not an upgrade, and often comes at the cost of a serious rework. The unfortunate reality is that "powercreep" does happen with each update. But Augments don't update a frame to keep up, they just diversify their options.

It's not always sidegrade. And it still frees up slot(s) so you can put more STrength or something... so "powercreep".

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

And do we want this? Random frame leeching in public? No.

So you encourage frames that are inactive so you get rewards...

That sounds a little unfair in my opinion. What obligation do other players have to choose the frames that are most convenient for me? I play Mag, so a Healer Frame would be a wonderful teammate, but why should they change their selection for me? I don't want that expectation placed on me, so I can't place it on them.

To be fair, I only play solo, so I don't actually have to deal with player toxicity, but I think it should be a given that everyone should feel welcome to take whatever frame they prefer into a mission without having other players measure their worth.

And also to be fairer, if friends are playing together then it makes sense for them to discuss how they want to structure their team. (Or if good-natured strangers are playing, they can negotiate who plays with what and for how long) But I think those decisions should be made with everyone's input and consent.

It's not about specific gear like "healer". It's about helping your teammates at all. Imagine situations where you like frame but it isn't the best frame. It's good in one situation but worse in another. Or maybe you don't like specific mission type.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

NO! Work?! It should be illegal. You want force a player to waste huge amount of time on such small rewards (compared to time)? It's max few step ahead huge randomness & time gates. It's such low & dirty approach.

It's like Rivens. You get Slivers, exchange for random riven, do a challenge and maybe get riven for a weapon you want. Then it's almost useless because it either roll stupid bonuses or bonuses are small. Now you go farm/buy Kuva so you can play one armed bandit.

Circuit is like this. You need to do ~33 missions to get 2nd incarnon. That's hours playing smae nodes... Then you have to wait another week... or weeks.

I mean, this is the section of what DE gets out of this so...
But also the only way it would be "forcing" players is if the rewards were so worthwhile that players couldn't refuse, so it's not that players are forced into doing something for small rewards. The players who find the rewards worthwhile will chose to get them, nothing changes for the others who think it's easier to just use Mod Augments, and the compulsive completionists are never going to be happy anyway.

You think it's so simple? Archon hunt giving guaranteed 10-20% strength per few weeks for one frame is ok.... *laughs*. That should be blasted to the ground yet it's still there.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Aim glide +1s would be more useful if you paired it with Aero Vantage, I agree. An additional second is more than what the Mobilize Mod offers. And that's kind of what makes all of these a big deal. They'd be permanent boosts that are each comparable to a lot of existing Mods, either without sacrificing your Mod slots or paired along with them. Though I suppose what might make them more appealing would be if these boosts were added to the Warframe's base stats. Then the +% Mods would actually multiply on top of these.

And lots of mods are bad. 1 second is like... bam it's done. I'm using Aero vantage + Aerodynamic. That's the boost.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-20 at 3:05 AM, quxier said:

Let me take my ruler, stoper and maybe some other tools. +10% speed is nothing. I would want e.g. 60%.. What's the point of speed boost if I have to use another speed boost? There is no point of it.

Some stat are missing. For example +1s aim glide is nothing without gravity mod.

I want some stats decreased or stay the same NOT increased. I mostly don't like Parkour sources as it increase my rolls. I like my rolls to be shorter.

There's some boring math involved, but Parkour Velocity has a bigger impact than the number itself. Increasing the velocity of a projectile by 10% doesn't mean it will only fly 10% further. That's why the yellow Archon Shards are noticeable at only 15% increase. And Sprint Speed probably won't be noticeable due to diminishing returns, but it would be nice for builds where you need all of your Mod space for something else. I personally notice the difference between getting somewhere in 9.09 minutes as opposed to 10 minutes.

But how many times you are doing mission with exact 9.09 minutes? For me it's impossible. Sometimes there is a bug, bad teammate, bad gear that slows me down. Sometime I have good gear, someone melt enemies or game bug out giving us reward. There is so much variables that 10% sprint speed boost would be not noticeable but e.g. 60% would be even session length could be longer.

 

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

'll also reiterate that these are not small rewards. Permanent Mod-free stat boosts, extra Mod slots, greater capacity, more MR points, and exclusive Primed Mods. If there was 100 hours of grind to get even one of those things then it would be worth it for me. I grinded Railjack Intrinsics just for a boost to Archwing speed and I was happy for it. If I got essentially 4 extra Mod slots (more like 2 in practice because that's how many Augments I usually use), then that would be an insane upgrade for me. I can't think of any update that would add more power to my builds.

 

100 hours for just one frame?! You can finish whole games, tv series within 100 hours.

12 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

I suppose it's possible that I'm just built different. I've been playing games now for 35 years, so my level of patience could go toe-to-toe with a Buddhist Monk. Because of that, something like this sounds like nothing more than an incidental reward. I already am trying to clear everything. I already am challenging myself to do it with an character restriction. I'm 30k points away from MR 28 and I haven't played a single mission with any frame besides Mag/Prime. (Not counting the Umbra thing where I made sure not to kill anyone) I've still got over 100 weapons I need to find and grind to make it to MR 30, so this campaign idea really sounds like no effort at all.

And here is elephant in the room. You "beat" all or at least most of content using 1 frame. We have 50+. Doing it for one-time reward is huge amount of work. Doing it with many frames is insane.

 

Having specific mode like Steel path giving one time rewards (or just  something "cheap" like gun/melee arcane adapters) would be fine:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1359214-quickfast-path-alternative-to-steel-path/

 

 

[Probably_Asleep]

3 hours ago, Raarsi said:

I wouldn't mind this on a SUBSTANTIALLY smaller level, both in challenges and in benefits.

For challenges, I'm thinking like maybe 3-5 smaller things like what we see for the Nightwave challenges, so like X number of missions or kill a set number of enemies on this frame, with something like Baro's dumb defense mission where you can only use Inaros or Inaros Prime is probably the limit of difficulty for an example of a challenge for this.

As for rewards, I'd rather prefer cosmetics, decorations, basically non-combat stuff.  If there absolutely had to be some sort of combat-boosting rewards, then I'd be looking more at prime boosts where it's just minor perks like energy capacity or passive defenses.

To top it off, it could be something seasonal, giving challenges for only a couple of frames at a time every so often and then adding a couple more every so often.  This would allow devs more time to not just cater challenges to the selected frames, but it would also allow highlight whatever issues those frames may have and perhaps even incentivizing readjusting or reworking those frames as needed more easily than looking at player statistics or going through the nonsensical masses of white noise that are these forums.

That's a respectable opinion, though I do really like the stat boosts idea (and I imagine there would be a lot of work required for a permanent stat boost on all Warframes of a particular type; unlike Archon Shards that only enhance a single frame, the campaign would benefit all future instances of that frame).

I really like my aesthetic choices for my current team of Mag Primes, so I'm not all that interested in skin options. But I will admit that I got myself an additional Mag Prime added to my team just because of the Heirloom skin, so I can't say I'm 100% disinterested in that sort of thing.

Making this into a rework system is actually a great idea. I know most frames get at least a 2nd look when it's time for their Prime Access, but after that it takes forever for any attention. I'd absolutely love if DE took a look at each frame individually and asked themselves: "Could this frame do all of these tasks?" I'd be in favor of a seasonal release if that was the reason behind it.

[Probably_Asleep]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

I still don't like artificially extending grind to this extent. Let's take Eidolons for example. For Energize you need to kill/capture 3 Eidolons. You need to be at right time of day. Then we have low drop chance (5%). No matter how good you are, you can still not get even chance to beat Eidolons. Some people likes to get lucky, but not all.

That's understandable. I can only do two solo "Tridalons" in one night with my Mag. (And that was a great milestone for me, a 3x3 run is not something I think I can do) So even if I did 2 Plains nights per day, it would take me a week to break the 50% chance for just one Arcane Energize. That's sort of brutal.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't think like this. I think "oh, I need Arcane X, how do I get it?" Then I proceed to read wiki (or something) and farm it directly (if possible) or try to buy (if it's not huge price).

I can have fun in some place, e.g. Duvir but that's my decision that shouldn't be dictated by some time gate.

I try to avoid thinking that way because I find it gives me the least amount of joy. There are certain Mods that I've wanted specifically and just finding the enemy or completing the mission for a small change to get it became more of a job than a joy. But I do sympathize with the sense of indignation that comes from feeling like personal freedom is withheld. I know DE wants to stretch playtime out and so they choose either time gating or low drop rates (or both when they're feeling especially mischievous). The low drop rates are more maddening, but the time gate more insulting.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

That's... "fine" but why? I mean, I can put huge list of "tasks" that are just time wasters, like: "feed your Helminth as Citrine" or "play song as Xaku".

I guess the "why" would be to prove capability with that frame in all unique challenges, but on that note...

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It can be fun. I enjoyed theory cracting, for example:
- Disarming Xaku that uses 1 for proc, 2 to disarm
- Xaku/1 with riding Ghoulsaw
- How to make low-fire rate Grimoire powerful enough. I'm at Sevagoth Crit augment + Avenger + tons of crit/multi on Grimoire.
Or I've enjoyed some little bit advanced techniques:
- slam/melee canceling via rolls
- Kullervo/Teleport + Zephyr/Hover
And more.
Those could be fun. However beating same level again and again is not fun. There are 27 Normal exterminates. With decent weapon you can beat them with any frame.
Steel path is just "more powerful enemies" so bring more power, armor strip or something.
So I don't hate it because it's longer. I hate it because there is massive redundancy (very similar "challenge").

I can get behind this point. Realistically what's the point of doing something against the same faction, in the same tile set, with the same objective? And actually that could be an interesting angle to take the campaign system.  Maybe when you swap your navigation to "Campain Mode" (which would be an alternate symbol next to the Normal/Steel Path toggle), only a few Nodes per Planet become available. All nodes would be an upgraded SP difficulty (same modifiers but with a base level of 200), and there would only be one node for each mission type. The faction chosen would be based on what your frame is a worst match against. That would drastically cut down on the length but still prove the same point that you've truly mastered the frame in all situations.

Only in the last two weeks have I been messing with the slam cancel roll. I didn't even know that was a thing but I've always wished it were (without actually seeing if it was).

6 hours ago, quxier said:

That's still redundant option. Like in arbitration, "beat each mission type with X debuff but with Y frame" would be fine. Doing it like, I don't know, 10-30 times would be very redundant.

I was thinking that the enemy buffs would be specific to the frame, not just random extra difficulty.  Like Mag obviously is weak against toxin so adding that to enemy fire would drastically increase the difficulty for her, but that wouldn't be a good choice for health-tanks. But yeah I do agree it would have to be well thought out not to just make it seem like a reused asset.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

At that time you have to do this stuff. Now If you play long enough and/or in special places you can farm eat with base Lenses. For example Thrax give you 2.5k, Angel 15k, orb 5k. Simple mission can yield e.g. 30-40k standing for equipped school. That's 1/10 of 400k standing cap (I'm at ~385k at 26MR). I'm at 3M in Zenurik.

I just keep buying Zenurik posters now. I figure I'll try to wallpaper a Dojo room with them or something. I just happened to max all my schools a few months before they did this upgrade. I'm bitterly happy for the new generation...

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not always sidegrade. And it still frees up slot(s) so you can put more STrength or something... so "powercreep".

This subject is a can of worms that I think I'll leave closed to prevent this thread from becoming a war zone.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not about specific gear like "healer". It's about helping your teammates at all. Imagine situations where you like frame but it isn't the best frame. It's good in one situation but worse in another. Or maybe you don't like specific mission type.

I don't have a lot of authority on this subject so I'm not going to fight back too strongly on this one. I'll hide my Warframe backstory as some optional reading:

Spoiler

I have a few friends who--a few years ago--got me into Warframe (they made new Nintendo Switch accounts so I'd play with them because they had no confidence that cross save was ever coming). But early into it and for unknown reasons they disappeared from the game (not really unknown, they were newlyweds). Since then I've been on the solo journey. But every now and then since cross-play was instituted, they jump on and play through new content that comes out. I've only this year surpassed them in MR. (But I do weigh my MR points heavier since I'm missing 564,000 points from Warframes due to my self-imposed handicap) However, the husband has been playing Warframe since its release (the wife started a few years before me, Warframe was her first ever video game experience). He sounds like such an old man when he talks about all the things that have changed in Warframe. So the only people I've played with have been friends, a veteran and a novice-turned-intermediate.

(Okay with that backstory out of the way...) My experience with Squadplay is much more limited than yours so take this for what it's worth. Because I know I can do all the content with my frame solo, I also then feel like my team has no grounds for complaint regarding my build choices. I feel like anyone who reaches that level with their main frame would feel the same way.

I don't think you're saying that other people's freedoms should be sacrificed for the sake of your personal convenience. That would go against what you said earlier about not wanting DE to mandate how you play via time gating. And I do agree that there's an opportunity to support one another by making a balanced team. I'll admit it got me a little nervous at first because it sounded like you were saying: 'I don't want players bringing their crap-frames into my gaming experience!' But you're obviously not saying that and I do also understand there is an opposite extreme where players just act like parasites.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

You think it's so simple? Archon hunt giving guaranteed 10-20% strength per few weeks for one frame is ok.... *laughs*. That should be blasted to the ground yet it's still there.

You've been around this forum, so I'm sure you've encountered people that say things like: "The Archon Shards aren't even that powerful! You don't need all that power." Now, mind you, I'm not agreeing with them; I think the shards are very powerful based on first hand experience! But I think it's obvious that everyone puts a different value on everything. That was the basic point I was making, that upgrades only feel "forced" on players when those players personally decide to view those upgrades as a necessity.

You don't have to answer this it it's too personal, but I'm quite curious being a solo player. How competitive is Warframe? Do you feel like if you don't keep up with an ever-growing standard of performance then the game is less enjoyable? I thought all missions were cooperative and resources/rewards were impossible to monopolize, so I sort of imagined that there wouldn't be any spirit of comparison against each other. But based on how people act in this Forum I've come to doubt my assumption. For me, when an upgrade comes out, I think: "OOH! This will make (insert mission type) so much easier! I can't wait!" But more often then not when I go to the forums I instead see sentiments that are more like: "WHAT!? Now we have to grind for this too? You monsters!" And I'm always confused because I'm thinking: "No you don't... have to... right?" But if Warframe is actually a competitive environment, then I can see why people would feel like they had to.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

And lots of mods are bad. 1 second is like... bam it's done. I'm using Aero vantage + Aerodynamic. That's the boost.

I'm not sure what this says about me developmentally, but I feel a rhythm when I'm gaming. Controller input to character response, fire rate, reload times, jump apex, and so on all have an intuitive beat to me. So when I see a gap to leap over, or want an aim glide to last long enough to aim a headshot, then my rhythm sense will tell me if it will succeed. So for me even something like Mobilize which only adds 0.6 extra seconds will "feel" different. I'll feel more confident while aiming and navigating around the environment.

I do really love Aero vantage + Aerodynamic. I think it's my favorite Aura.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

But how many times you are doing mission with exact 9.09 minutes? For me it's impossible. Sometimes there is a bug, bad teammate, bad gear that slows me down. Sometime I have good gear, someone melt enemies or game bug out giving us reward. There is so much variables that 10% sprint speed boost would be not noticeable but e.g. 60% would be even session length could be longer.

This is probably similar to the comment above. I think I need to get my head examined.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

100 hours for just one frame?! You can finish whole games, tv series within 100 hours.

I probably just don't think about death as much as I should because I don't really dwell on the idea of how I can best use what limited time I have. When I'm playing video games I feel like I'm tending to a Bonsai tree. (One that just happens to award three times damage for headshots) 100 hours goes by without my notice, but the next hundred hours I'll be looking at that sweet sweet +5% decrease in slide-friction while thinking: "Ahh... what a beautiful little adorable little stem..."

7 hours ago, quxier said:

And here is elephant in the room. You "beat" all or at least most of content using 1 frame. We have 50+. Doing it for one-time reward is huge amount of work. Doing it with many frames is insane.

100+ hours of grind for over 50 frames would be a tad excessive. I could go down as far as 10. My underlying point though was that the amount of time spent isn't going to matter if it's all enjoyable. Now obviously we disagree on what actually is "enjoyable," but I think we'd both agree that it's better to enjoy 100 hours of your existence than to only enjoy 10. If the journey was fun, like it's been for me, then I don't thing the ending rewards even matter. (But I still want the rewards) But to your point I think the idea itself would benefit from debate and collaboration on how a single-frame journey could be made enjoyable for more people.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Having specific mode like Steel path giving one time rewards (or just  something "cheap" like gun/melee arcane adapters) would be fine:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1359214-quickfast-path-alternative-to-steel-path/

You weren't kidding about 60% Sprint! (It really would be cool to have a "Primed Rush" or something)

Looking at your post, my slow-and-steady lifestyle seems so different! These are pretty much all Mods/changes to help increase the pace of gameplay...
...
WAIT A SECOND...
Is your username about speed? Is it "Quick-sy-er" because of the quickness? Because wouldn't it be so hilarious if you and I are debating about game pace!? "Probably_Asleep" promoting a slow-and-steady journey and "quxier" fighting for an petal-to-the-metal race? Is this even real? Are we characters in a book someone is writing!?

[quxier]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

It can be fun. I enjoyed theory cracting, for example:
- Disarming Xaku that uses 1 for proc, 2 to disarm
- Xaku/1 with riding Ghoulsaw
- How to make low-fire rate Grimoire powerful enough. I'm at Sevagoth Crit augment + Avenger + tons of crit/multi on Grimoire.
Or I've enjoyed some little bit advanced techniques:
- slam/melee canceling via rolls
- Kullervo/Teleport + Zephyr/Hover
And more.
Those could be fun. However beating same level again and again is not fun. There are 27 Normal exterminates. With decent weapon you can beat them with any frame.
Steel path is just "more powerful enemies" so bring more power, armor strip or something.
So I don't hate it because it's longer. I hate it because there is massive redundancy (very similar "challenge").

I can get behind this point. Realistically what's the point of doing something against the same faction, in the same tile set, with the same objective? And actually that could be an interesting angle to take the campaign system.  Maybe when you swap your navigation to "Campain Mode" (which would be an alternate symbol next to the Normal/Steel Path toggle), only a few Nodes per Planet become available. All nodes would be an upgraded SP difficulty (same modifiers but with a base level of 200), and there would only be one node for each mission type. The faction chosen would be based on what your frame is a worst match against. That would drastically cut down on the length but still prove the same point that you've truly mastered the frame in all situations.

Yeah, I would be ok with stuff like "beat each mission type" with maybe some 1 or 2 different factions (factions are similar so there is no point of beating all).

4 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

Only in the last two weeks have I been messing with the slam cancel roll. I didn't even know that was a thing but I've always wished it were (without actually seeing if it was).

It's pretty neat with weapon that has some "on slam" effect like Tenet Exec.

Or there is nice effect with slow heavy attack like Corufel's with Kullervo's teleport. You can 'drift' using slide & arrows.

But... that's starting to get offtopic so I stop here.

5 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

I don't think you're saying that other people's freedoms should be sacrificed for the sake of your personal convenience. That would go against what you said earlier about not wanting DE to mandate how you play via time gating. And I do agree that there's an opportunity to support one another by making a balanced team. I'll admit it got me a little nervous at first because it sounded like you were saying: 'I don't want players bringing their crap-frames into my gaming experience!' But you're obviously not saying that and I do also understand there is an opposite extreme where players just act like parasites.

It's little bit nuanced. If your pink Rhino with wings can beat Spy then go for it. But if you are going to pick gear just because you liked and sit in the corner then avoid it. 

5 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

13 hours ago, quxier said:

You think it's so simple? Archon hunt giving guaranteed 10-20% strength per few weeks for one frame is ok.... *laughs*. That should be blasted to the ground yet it's still there.

You've been around this forum, so I'm sure you've encountered people that say things like: "The Archon Shards aren't even that powerful! You don't need all that power." Now, mind you, I'm not agreeing with them; I think the shards are very powerful based on first hand experience! But I think it's obvious that everyone puts a different value on everything. That was the basic point I was making, that upgrades only feel "forced" on players when those players personally decide to view those upgrades as a necessity.

They have power. I don't deny it. You can for example add 5x tau strength so you only need 1 mod to fully strip armor (at 200% strength). That's frees up 1 or more slots for other use.

The problem is acquisition and usage of them. Pick any of 99% of mods. You can either farm them or buy. You get them so you need put some endo/credits. It takes some time but it's not too long. With your fully upgraded mod you can use it anywhere, assuming you have enough mod points (or however they were called). Look at Archon shards. You want add some for Xaku? You need to check if ARchon have correct shard. If yes you may play. Repeat it every 3 weeks. You can play lottery with Netracells as well but that's 5 times a week. What happens when you have another frame? Do it again.

It's so player unfriendly yet it's still there - lots of people are ok with that.

5 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

You don't have to answer this it it's too personal, but I'm quite curious being a solo player. How competitive is Warframe?

How competitive warframe is? It depends on player. It depends exactly what you mean. And I think you are mixing few things.

Quote

I thought all missions were cooperative and resources/rewards were impossible to monopolize, so I sort of imagined that there wouldn't be any spirit of comparison against each other. But based on how people act in this Forum I've come to doubt my assumption.

Some people likes to compare to each other, be "the best" etc. Other people don't care and they want have some "other fun".

Quote

Do you feel like if you don't keep up with an ever-growing standard of performance then the game is less enjoyable?

I've been solo player for long time. I've just recently (month or so) started to play with groups. For solo player it's important to "progress". For teamplayer? Not so much. I don't think I've failed a mission once in a group.

However without some progress or gear game have less options, ergo less enjoyable. Without some "good performance", ok stuff (like fights) becomes boring. For example without good amp or school it takes a lot of time to beat Angel's void form at higher levels.

Quote

For me, when an upgrade comes out, I think: "OOH! This will make (insert mission type) so much easier! I can't wait!" But more often then not when I go to the forums I instead see sentiments that are more like: "WHAT!? Now we have to grind for this too? You monsters!" And I'm always confused because I'm thinking: "No you don't... have to... right?" But if Warframe is actually a competitive environment, then I can see why people would feel like they had to.

Here is problem that you don't see. It's "acquisition time". Probably most people don't complain about stuff, even they are just "+damage" kind of things. They complain if the time required is too long. You don't need most of things when you are playing with team but it doesn't need you don't want to. That's normal to want things. I like warframe because I have many toys to play with. Gameplay isn't always great. When I've been solo player I've been buying lots of frames because grind were too boring.

5 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

13 hours ago, quxier said:

And lots of mods are bad. 1 second is like... bam it's done. I'm using Aero vantage + Aerodynamic. That's the boost.

I'm not sure what this says about me developmentally, but I feel a rhythm when I'm gaming. Controller input to character response, fire rate, reload times, jump apex, and so on all have an intuitive beat to me. So when I see a gap to leap over, or want an aim glide to last long enough to aim a headshot, then my rhythm sense will tell me if it will succeed. So for me even something like Mobilize which only adds 0.6 extra seconds will "feel" different. I'll feel more confident while aiming and navigating around the environment.

I do really love Aero vantage + Aerodynamic. I think it's my favorite Aura.

It honestly depends how we use things. I've used Amalgam mod that USED TO shorten rolls and I felt that duration of rolls were different, even that time were small. It was especially visible when I've been playing "Disarming Xaku" (roll, disarm with 2nd, roll again or proc void, repeat stuff, more or less). I don't aimglide with timer with me. I aim glide for some time but it's random. Same for jumps. I get most of jumps and the one I don't get are either rare or I can do something about it (e.g. wall jump or leap). So I don't care about exact aim-glide.

However such fine-tune stuff should be moded not slapped in some obscure system. I wish we had different section for rolls length/effects, bullet jump length/effect, sprint speed, jump height, gravity/aimglide-duration etc.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

13 hours ago, quxier said:

But how many times you are doing mission with exact 9.09 minutes? For me it's impossible. Sometimes there is a bug, bad teammate, bad gear that slows me down. Sometime I have good gear, someone melt enemies or game bug out giving us reward. There is so much variables that 10% sprint speed boost would be not noticeable but e.g. 60% would be even session length could be longer.

This is probably similar to the comment above. I think I need to get my head examined.

It's ok. Different people play differently.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

13 hours ago, quxier said:

100 hours for just one frame?! You can finish whole games, tv series within 100 hours.

I probably just don't think about death as much as I should because I don't really dwell on the idea of how I can best use what limited time I have. When I'm playing video games I feel like I'm tending to a Bonsai tree. (One that just happens to award three times damage for headshots) 100 hours goes by without my notice, but the next hundred hours I'll be looking at that sweet sweet +5% decrease in slide-friction while thinking: "Ahh... what a beautiful little adorable little stem..."

8 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

And here is elephant in the room. You "beat" all or at least most of content using 1 frame. We have 50+. Doing it for one-time reward is huge amount of work. Doing it with many frames is insane.

100+ hours of grind for over 50 frames would be a tad excessive. I could go down as far as 10. My underlying point though was that the amount of time spent isn't going to matter if it's all enjoyable. Now obviously we disagree on what actually is "enjoyable," but I think we'd both agree that it's better to enjoy 100 hours of your existence than to only enjoy 10. If the journey was fun, like it's been for me, then I don't thing the ending rewards even matter. (But I still want the rewards) But to your point I think the idea itself would benefit from debate and collaboration on how a single-frame journey could be made enjoyable for more people.

Let's talk about intrinsic rewards and extrinsic rewards.

Intrinsic rewards are about you enjoy stuff, your growth etc. I've spent hours in Duviri because it was "fun".

Extrinsic rewards are about external rewards like money or items.

 

I can spend many hours on different things without realizing it. Some are bad for my health, some are ok. I've recently played Duviri exploring & doing some stuff for 2-3 hours. I've looked at screen and I've seen timer and... laughable rewards. Those are intrinsic rewards for me because I've enjoyed playing Duviri without thinking about rewards (too much).

I see your rewards (extrinsic) and potentially intrinsic reward (challenge for completing mission using certain gear, in this case frame). It's sounds neat. You enjoy playing AND you get some rewards. It's not that simple. Extrinsic reward CAN (don't have to) affect your enjoyment (intrinsic reward). It's more prominent when they expect you to  e.g. "play rotation C, aka 20 minutes, or don't bother". To be honest lots of "ways" like your first post makes me not play with way I've enjoyed. I've played "Disarming Xaku" (proc void with 1st, disarm with 2nd, repeat). Then I stopped playing that way. Of course one part were huge nerfs to that style (cannot disarm past max gun, eximus cannot be disarmed). However there were still that "reward at rotation C" kind of things. Why bother with failure, when I can just slap strength/range + armor strip and "just win"?

 

8 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

 

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Having specific mode like Steel path giving one time rewards (or just  something "cheap" like gun/melee arcane adapters) would be fine:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1359214-quickfast-path-alternative-to-steel-path/

You weren't kidding about 60% Sprint! (It really would be cool to have a "Primed Rush" or something)

Looking at your post, my slow-and-steady lifestyle seems so different! These are pretty much all Mods/changes to help increase the pace of gameplay...

I'm just opposed to slapping EHP or any weird damage reduction and calling it challenge.

ps. I still can enjoy slow exploration kind of thing. It's just sometimes I want to have "quick" stuff (I'm fan of martial arts & movies) and  sometimes I want to slow down and explore (I'm fan of fantasy/scifi).

9 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

WAIT A SECOND...
Is your username about speed? Is it "Quick-sy-er" because of the quickness? Because wouldn't it be so hilarious if you and I are debating about game pace!? "Probably_Asleep" promoting a slow-and-steady journey and "quxier" fighting for an petal-to-the-metal race? Is this even real? Are we characters in a book someone is writing!?

Haha... that's sadly coincidence. It was just random word I came up because I'm bad at naming... and I didn't wanted to think too much. However I like your meaning.

[Probably_Asleep]

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

Yeah, I would be ok with stuff like "beat each mission type" with maybe some 1 or 2 different factions (factions are similar so there is no point of beating all).

I really like this idea (I revised the original post around it). My main reason for having everything was so prove your mastery with that frame over all the content, which really doesn't require redundant content. Also removing that bulk would leave more room for making it more of an actual lore-heavy campaign like what TENr0nin and Raarsi are saying.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

It's pretty neat with weapon that has some "on slam" effect like Tenet Exec.
Or there is nice effect with slow heavy attack like Corufel's with Kullervo's teleport. You can 'drift' using slide & arrows.

I was only thinking of it in terms of mobility, but this does sound really interesting!

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

It's little bit nuanced. If your pink Rhino with wings can beat Spy then go for it. But if you are going to pick gear just because you liked and sit in the corner then avoid it.

That's fair. And this is actually exactly why I said I wasn't going to push too strongly given my lack of personal experience with Squad play. Because 100% of my missions require 100% participation, my mind didn't even go to the thought of a squad member doing this. I was aware of the concept of leeches, but I only imagined them standing at Extraction. It would be so annoying if someone just followed me into Spy rooms, possibly even set off alarms, but never actually helping with anything.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

They have power. I don't deny it. You can for example add 5x tau strength so you only need 1 mod to fully strip armor (at 200% strength). That's frees up 1 or more slots for other use.

The problem is acquisition and usage of them. Pick any of 99% of mods. You can either farm them or buy. You get them so you need put some endo/credits. It takes some time but it's not too long. With your fully upgraded mod you can use it anywhere, assuming you have enough mod points (or however they were called). Look at Archon shards. You want add some for Xaku? You need to check if ARchon have correct shard. If yes you may play. Repeat it every 3 weeks. You can play lottery with Netracells as well but that's 5 times a week. What happens when you have another frame? Do it again.

It's so player unfriendly yet it's still there - lots of people are ok with that.

Yeah Mods are leaps and bounds better than Shards. Even for someone like me that uses a small pool of frames, the UI elements alone make it a pain. I'm glad they reduced it to 30 Bile, but even if they required no resources to remove it would still be way less convenient than Mods.

I think even if they let you add/remove shards straight from the Arsenal at no resource cost, but kept the rule that a shard can only be installed on one frame at a time, then people would continue to farm them. Having to exit the Arsenal, walk to the Helminth, build up Bile (gross), swap to Archon Shards menu, manage shards, and then go back to Arsenal to finish your build is such a chore. (Especially on Nintnedo Switch where every menu change takes a couple seconds to load)

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

How competitive warframe is? It depends on player. It depends exactly what you mean. And I think you are mixing few things.
Some people likes to compare to each other, be "the best" etc. Other people don't care and they want have some "other fun".

That's not bad then. It would be different if you were like: "Oh wow, yeah Warframe feels more competitive than a Beverly Hills high school. You're even judged on your fashion sense!"

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

I've been solo player for long time. I've just recently (month or so) started to play with groups. For solo player it's important to "progress". For teamplayer? Not so much. I don't think I've failed a mission once in a group.

However without some progress or gear game have less options, ergo less enjoyable. Without some "good performance", ok stuff (like fights) becomes boring. For example without good amp or school it takes a lot of time to beat Angel's void form at higher levels.

Here is problem that you don't see. It's "acquisition time". Probably most people don't complain about stuff, even they are just "+damage" kind of things. They complain if the time required is too long. You don't need most of things when you are playing with team but it doesn't need you don't want to. That's normal to want things. I like warframe because I have many toys to play with. Gameplay isn't always great. When I've been solo player I've been buying lots of frames because grind were too boring.

This is a little bit surprising to me actually. With solo play I agree it's like you said how the focus is on progress; the red-crit million damage level-cap meta stuff isn't really necessary. And I'd rather be trying to get an obscure weapon blueprint/component than dumping another forma into a weapon that can already do what I need it to do. So I've often thought that the big numbers and "meta" skills are really just there for people to show off to one another. But from what you're saying it sounds like most squad experiences are also casual.

Farming time does make sense. The times I do put Forma into things are always farm related. Either I'm trying to get all the MR points out of a Kuva/Sister weapon, or I'm trying to improve the tedium of a grind. For instance I ended up getting a Riven for the Felarx and I didn't ever care about it, but lately I've been trying to get the Vandal weapons out of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, so I've had to find ways of increasing my kill rate. Chasing that rabbit hole has let me to dump like 6 Forma into my Felarx. So while I started off not caring about the big numbers, as you said the "progress" pushed me to obsess about it.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

However such fine-tune stuff should be moded not slapped in some obscure system. I wish we had different section for rolls length/effects, bullet jump length/effect, sprint speed, jump height, gravity/aimglide-duration etc.

Good point. It makes sense for maximum speed and distance to be something that you can enhance through Mods, but just because I can jump a certain height doesn't mean I do that every time. It would be nice to have a way to fine-tune our movements within the limitations of our frames. Especially for things like dodging. If they're going to start making enemies that encourage agility then it would be nice to manage movement better.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

Let's talk about intrinsic rewards and extrinsic rewards.
Intrinsic rewards are about you enjoy stuff, your growth etc. I've spent hours in Duviri because it was "fun".
Extrinsic rewards are about external rewards like money or items.
I can spend many hours on different things without realizing it. Some are bad for my health, some are ok. I've recently played Duviri exploring & doing some stuff for 2-3 hours. I've looked at screen and I've seen timer and... laughable rewards. Those are intrinsic rewards for me because I've enjoyed playing Duviri without thinking about rewards (too much).
I see your rewards (extrinsic) and potentially intrinsic reward (challenge for completing mission using certain gear, in this case frame). It's sounds neat. You enjoy playing AND you get some rewards. It's not that simple. Extrinsic reward CAN (don't have to) affect your enjoyment (intrinsic reward). It's more prominent when they expect you to  e.g. "play rotation C, aka 20 minutes, or don't bother". To be honest lots of "ways" like your first post makes me not play with way I've enjoyed. I've played "Disarming Xaku" (proc void with 1st, disarm with 2nd, repeat). Then I stopped playing that way. Of course one part were huge nerfs to that style (cannot disarm past max gun, eximus cannot be disarmed). However there were still that "reward at rotation C" kind of things. Why bother with failure, when I can just slap strength/range + armor strip and "just win"?

That's a good call-out. I've done the same in Duviri. An intrinsic reward for me is getting 50+ Decrees and then activating Fleet-Footed. The ridiculous speed is entertaining by itself, but then I go to the Undercroft and see the Operator's goofy walk ramped up to a spastic degree. It's so hilarious that it makes the entire thing worth it. I also like using ridiculous means of combat, like using Mag's Pull to drop enemies into bottomless pits. It not efficient, but it's so satisfying that I may end up doubling my clear time just playing around with ragdoll enemies.

I can also see why this would be a really subjective and delicate balance to strike. I'm really happy with where Mag is at with her kit, but I also avoid some overly powerful builds because it's just not as fun. I have a build that uses every shield increase I can get, and then Parasitic Armor, Adaptation, and an Incarnon Sancti Magistar. The Damage Resistance puts the EHP at something above a half-million, and the Sancti is restoring all HP 2.4 times a second, so it's an insanely tanky build even for someone like Mag. But it's not actually that fun to use. (I have it for enemies that cheat with things like Ability neutralization) So I can agree that it's possible to ruin the experience with too much AND too little power. You want a fight to be a fight but also don't want a failure.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

I'm just opposed to slapping EHP or any weird damage reduction and calling it challenge.

ps. I still can enjoy slow exploration kind of thing. It's just sometimes I want to have "quick" stuff (I'm fan of martial arts & movies) and  sometimes I want to slow down and explore (I'm fan of fantasy/scifi).

I agree with that. The attenuation thing is especially irritating to me because it messes with my immersion. If an enemy can dictate how much DPS you're allowed to deliver, then why not set that to 1? It's like the enemy is saying: "I'll let you kill me, but only after you've tortured me for 5 minutes." I'd much more prefer enemies that seemed to have a well thought out plan to take me on.

Also can relate to the dual love of varying paces. I wouldn't want a game to say you have to play if fast or you have to play it slow.

On 2024-01-21 at 10:25 AM, quxier said:

Haha... that's sadly coincidence. It was just random word I came up because I'm bad at naming... and I didn't wanted to think too much. However I like your meaning.

Dang it! I really wanted that to be true.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Probably_Asleep said:

On 2024-01-21 at 8:25 PM, quxier said:

However such fine-tune stuff should be moded not slapped in some obscure system. I wish we had different section for rolls length/effects, bullet jump length/effect, sprint speed, jump height, gravity/aimglide-duration etc.

Good point. It makes sense for maximum speed and distance to be something that you can enhance through Mods, but just because I can jump a certain height doesn't mean I do that every time. It would be nice to have a way to fine-tune our movements within the limitations of our frames. Especially for things like dodging. If they're going to start making enemies that encourage agility then it would be nice to manage movement better.

No, I meant that sprint/jump/roll/etc isn't mixed with other mods (like Vitality). So you have for example 8 mods JUST for sprint, roll, jump, X mods etc.

Then you can have configs (per frame or some "general use") that would serves what you described above.

Of course fine tuning IN MISSION would be nice (e.g. the more you hold jump the higher you jump).

 

[Probably_Asleep]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

No, I meant that sprint/jump/roll/etc isn't mixed with other mods (like Vitality). So you have for example 8 mods JUST for sprint, roll, jump, X mods etc.

Then you can have configs (per frame or some "general use") that would serves what you described above.

Of course fine tuning IN MISSION would be nice (e.g. the more you hold jump the higher you jump).

 

Oh interesting! That would probably be an easier system to code. I imagine a slider system would have to link those attributes to a new configuration file/section, and there would have to be auditing on that new system against existing systems (especially since other parts of the arsenal are now affecting Sprint and Parkour specs).

But your idea would only require an additional mod screen and a UI element to access it (perhaps a toggle button from within the same Warframe mods screen that changes the color scheme a bit, removes the Aura/Exilus slots, and has a text indicator that you're viewing the current Config Slot's mobility section). None of the original systems would be affected because it would interact with the same configuration. (I guess the only safety they'd have to build is to make mobility mods inaccessible from the Warframe mod screen, although they'd need to account for hybrid mods that enhance both mobility and ability like Speed Drift; I guess just a check to see if that Mod has been used on either screen and give a warning dialog when you try to apply it twice)