Should the Zenistar benefit from Opportunity's Reach?

[Zahnrad]

I'm probably late to this topic. I played when the Entrati Labs dropped, but then took a break from Warframe. Now I'm playing again.

 

Anyway, with Melee Arcanes and Tennokai I felt like revisiting my favourite melee weapon that had suffered overtime, the Zenistar.

Milestone weapon, throws a disk with a duration that scales with Combo Count. Looking at Arcanes like Arcane Cresendo it looks like the Zenistars problems have finally been fixed (if you're patient enough to grind/trade for a max stack of that Arcane)

 

Anyway. Went to check out the Tennokai mod variants to see if one could benefit the Zenistar. Opportunity's Reach seemed like the best choice, so I went out, farmed Alchemy missions and obtained it.

It appears after testing it though, the Zenistar's disc does NOT benefit from the Melee Range buff.

I tried multiple tests, first off being to test it with and without the mod incase it somehow works permanently. To which there was no difference.

Then tried it with the mod without a Tennokai, and again with a Tennokai. Again I didn't find any difference in range. Keep in mind I have a 2.8m Range riven, so if there was a difference it would have been more exaggerated.

 

Obviously what I'm assuming is happening, is the Tennokai is only applying to the Melee weapon being swung, as opposed to the effect afterwards.

I'm kinda bummed out by this revelation, but will continue to use Opportunity's Reach simply for the increased Tennokai window duration.

But I really wish the Range buff also worked on the Zenistar disk.

 

So I'm curious, is it really too much to ask?

[Numerounius]

Some functions of tennokai are still bugged/not implemented since they didn't have time to add them. I know that it doesn't work for slide heavy attacks so there is a chance that it could also just be bugged in a similar fashion since it isn't implemented yet/forgotten about. I do not know how tennokai benefits works for other similar heavy attack interactions so a blanket interaction could also explain why it doesn't gain the benefit.

I wish I could say more but I am not that versed on it yet.

 

On a side note, you call taking break since. . . the last major update??? Probably the shortest timeframe I've seen someone call themselves taking a break from a game.

[Zahnrad]

21 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

On a side note, you call taking break since. . . the last major update??? Probably the shortest timeframe I've seen someone call themselves taking a break from a game.

eh, I've not had a major Warframe spree in a long time, so it all just feels like one long continuous break with a bit of Warframe every few weeks.

Even just a few weeks feels like a long break to me now.

[Leqesai]

Why would a mod that boost tennokai attacks boost the disc... honestly it doesn't seem like this should work so I'm not surprised that it doesn't. 

The disc benefits from general melee not specific melee. 

Killing Blow doesn't affect the disc so why would this mod?

Edited February 11 by Leqesai

[Zahnrad]

33 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The disc benefits from general melee not specific melee.

It benefits from situational stuff such as Spring-Loaded Blade or Motus Impact.

The latter is possible since you can slide mid-air which allows you to use non-aerial Heavy Attacks (It's extremely hard to aim but it is possible)

Edited February 11 by Zahnny

[Leqesai]

9 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

It benefits from situational stuff such as Spring-Loaded Blade or Motus Impact.

The latter is possible since you can slide mid-air which allows you to use non-aerial Heavy Attacks (It's extremely hard to aim but it is possible)

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Both Spring-Loaded Blade and Motus Impact affect general melee range.

Opportunity's Reach specifically boosts Tennokai Attack range. The disc is not the Tennokai attack in the same way it isn't the heavy attack (that which benefits from Killing Blow)

[Zahnrad]

11 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You're comparing apples to oranges.

I can't really tell what your argument is. Your first comment made it sound like you were coming at this from an opinionated standpoint.

So I explained other examples.

But now you're explaining it from a mechanical standpoint?

Motus Impact would easily fit into the same catagory. Since Motus Impact is intended to be used for aerial melee attacks but intentionally or unintentionally works for the Zenistar's disk. Similar to how something such as Power Strength applies to the initial cast on Channeled/Exalted abilties, but remains for the duration.

 

The question I was asking in the OP wasn't "how does it work mechanically" but rather "should" it work like other similar examples?

[Leqesai]

31 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

I can't really tell what your argument is. Your first comment made it sound like you were coming at this from an opinionated standpoint.

So I explained other examples.

But now you're explaining it from a mechanical standpoint?

Motus Impact would easily fit into the same catagory. Since Motus Impact is intended to be used for aerial melee attacks but intentionally or unintentionally works for the Zenistar's disk. Similar to how something such as Power Strength applies to the initial cast on Channeled/Exalted abilties, but remains for the duration.

 

The question I was asking in the OP wasn't "how does it work mechanically" but rather "should" it work like other similar examples?

And my argument is it should not be an exception. It makes sense that it doesn't work. It isn't a tennokai attack.

[Zahnrad]

fair enough

[Aruquae]

19 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Why would a mod that boost tennokai attacks boost the disc

The disk being a heavy attack and thus should be boosted by extra Tennokai heavy attack range…?

[UnstarPrime]

My interpretation is that the Zenistar disc is not a heavy attack itself, but rather is a side-effect that occurs when the player performs a heavy attack.  This is demonstrated by the disc's damage not scaling with heavy attack mods nor the combo counter.

Tennokai mods only affect heavy attacks that are made via Tennokai procs, so with the disc not counting as a heavy attack in all other situations, it seems consistent that it would also not benefit from Opportunity's Reach.

[Zakkhar]

23 hours ago, Zahnny said:

It appears after testing it though, the Zenistar's disc does NOT benefit from the Melee Range buff.

It benefits from amounnt of combo. Bigger combo, bigger disc.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, Aruquae said:

The disk being a heavy attack and thus should be boosted by extra Tennokai heavy attack range…?

The disc is not boosted by mods like killing blow that boost heavy attack... that's my entire point....

Edited February 12 by Leqesai

[Aruquae]

29 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The disc is not boosted by mods like killing blow that boost heavy attack... that's my entire point....

I realized shortly after posting that

Mb, sir. Your counter was completely valid. Guess tennokai isn't the only thing that should be looked into for the zenistar. It just seems like it the disk should count as a heavy attack

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I realized shortly after posting that

Mb, sir. Your counter was completely valid. Guess tennokai isn't the only thing that should be looked into for the zenistar. It just seems like it the disk should count as a heavy attack

Considering the duration is based on the combo meter you would think it receive benefit from heavy attack boosting things (and by extension tennokai) but because it doesn't I don't think an exception should be made unless the whole system is re evaluated, as you suggest.

[Zahnrad]

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Considering the duration is based on the combo meter you would think it receive benefit from heavy attack boosting things (and by extension tennokai) but because it doesn't I don't think an exception should be made unless the whole system is re evaluated, as you suggest.

Personally I feel like it's fine to give it, since the Zenistar had been screwed over for many years and I doubt even at max potential, the Zenistar competes with many other weapons in the current meta of the game.

Zenistar used to have a set duration, then it got changed to scale with Combo Count, but the thing is, is that the Zenistar as a weapon isn't built in any way to synergize with combo count generation or etc so it just kinda killed the weapon since building for Combo Count just ruins the weapon overall.

Then at some point the Zenistar's disk range just got straight up nerfed.

 

Even now, while I'm thankful for the new Arcanes making the Zenistar viable again (if you spam finishers first) I still feel like the Arcane is more of a bandaid fix, whether DE were intending to help the weapon or not. So unless DE are planning to release Zenistar Prime or Incarnon anytime soon, it would be nice after all the years just to get this little bonus on top.

 

At least that's what I think anyway. I understand others will disagree.