The Limbo Post, #826 - Riftwalking into Usability

[CrownOfShadows]

Everyone's gotta make a Limbo post at some point in their life right? xD

So I was a little bored maybe and started mucking around with Limbo again. Here's the honest truth: I have only ever used him for stasis locking the whole map and once in a blue moon for spy. I've never really understood rift surge - even though I've used the augment to boost my damage I never understood the ability itself.

And after a lot of confusion and some searching I happened to read this post from a few years ago:

This was a bit of an eye-opener and I was like HUH, let me check this out, and I'm here now after playing a lot of Limbo as I assume he was probably meant to be played.

As a result I have a much better appreciation of Limbo and a much clearer idea of what's really holding him back, and more importantly why he doesn't need a total overhaul (something I actually would've given the nod to a month ago) . He's SO close to being good, fun, unique and strong, honestly, so close. After riftwalking a bunch, here's my suggestions for Limbo. Let me preface this by saying that this is only like the 800th post on Limbo, so take the others that have preceded me on this topic with their due weight.

Alright let's br-br-break it down

All Limbo needs is QoL and some tweaks

1. In the Rift:
   • Create a special post-process effect that is WAY more noticeable when in the rift. May I suggest using the same desaturated tech used in Duviri and Conjunction survival as a good starting point - as not only is it already made and very apparent but also is slightly lore adjacent. Alternatively, create a brand new effect (might be a good idea just so Limbos in Conjunction survival aren't confused out of their minds). It needs to be strong visually, there should never be a question about whether you are in the rift or not. It should be night and day difference. Even if the desaturated tech is used here, i'd suggest bumping the contrast or something too. It doesn't even need to be area specific like Duviri's, even if you just did a blanket post process across the whole screen that would do wonders (tbh idk how Duviri's tech works exactly, it's super slick).
   • Enemies that are not in the rift should either disappear from the player's view when they are in the rift or perhaps become just ghostly mostly-transparent figures. This is to distinguish the rift-bound from the normal, which is very hard to do normally, the best way to know is in fact to use stasis and see who stops moving, but that shouldn't be necessary. AND vice versa, when the player is not in the rift, the enemies trapped in the rift should not be visible. AND this should be true of team-mates who interact with the rift too - it should be the same experience for them. Enemies in the rift are physically removed and they should be visually removed as much as possible, players should only be seeing their current plane of existence, not both at the same time. (Another possibility is to color the non-rift enemies and desaturate the rift enemies, but I'd bet that would still be too cluttered and confusing). Limbo has a lot of complicated interactions and this lack of visual clarity makes playing him WAY more frustrating than it needs to be. This change alone would be a god-send.
2. Banish: I suggest removing the portal he leaves behind. Players can roll to do the same thing and it's just annoying for others to worry about not stepping in it, and Limbo himself doesn't even use it. I also suggest removing the radial banish associated with hitting a target and instead adding a hold version to this ability that casts a banishing wave so that you can banish a group in front of you if you want. Note that there is a current hold mechanic on Banish - it cancels the Banish. I never found this particularly useful but maybe there's a case for it idk about.
   • I wouldn't change the augment at all (Haven), I think it's good.
   • While I'd like Banish to be more useful as a Helminth I couldn't think of anything to stack onto it really, although there are surely lots of options.
3. Stasis: I remember reading in several other Limbo posts suggestions that the rift should just slow enemies rather than freeze them. I believe this is a great suggestion, but my recent experiences have informed me that he really needs stasis to freeze enemies too because it's an important part of his gameplay loop. I remember one suggestion that said have the rift apply cold continuously until enemies are frozen, and I would suggest either that or something similar like enemies are slowed a little when first entering and this ramps up progressively to a full stop (cold status has benefits now that DE may not want applied en masse idk). The reason for this is primarily to make the constantly moving boundary of cataclysm less obnoxious for others and for Limbo himself. This absolutely should happen imo, it would be a major benefit to everyone. I think that they should probably stop in their tracks either half or 1/3 of the way into the rift. Once frozen, I don't think they should unfreeze (until they exit the rift) even though the goalpost will be moving because this will just create the same boundary problem as before where a bunch of enemies are crowding the boundary being frozen and unfrozen constantly. Basically, the rift should be like molasses and they eventually just grind to a halt and stop there until they exit the rift. This would create a pleasant scattering of enemies rather than a stutter troop at the boundary.
4. Cataclysm: should change slightly in how it interacts with the team and Limbo himself.
   • Should always be cast directly on Limbo's position no matter what. Accidentally casting it 100 meters away is both annoying and unnecessary. This was likely done because I think you used to be able to cast 2 Cataclysms and the idea was probably that you could cast the second one somewhere else while remaining in the first. This wasn't practical then and it's pointless and annoying now that you can only cast 1.
   • Enemies that are banished and then enter Cataclysm should not exit the rift when Banish's duration expires or for any other reason except being manually banished by Limbo himself. If they are in Cataclysm, they are in the rift, period. This interaction is extremely confusing and counterintuitive.
   • The visual changes along with the new stasis mechanics should help the team tremendously when engaging with the rift, not interrupting their gameplay very much. I will say that I considered removing the roll-to-enter-the-rift mechanic for the team, and only allowing them in via Cataclysm. I don't really have a good reason for not promoting this, I think it would help a lot, but I guess I like the idea that the WF community might get wise enough around Limbo to take advantage of ducking damage on a whim (or with Haven ducking into the rift to heal, which I think is a nice thing).
   • The one remaining issue is players trying to attack enemies outside of Cataclysm. I think the frustration around this will drop like crazy if the visual changes are implemented, but it's still a bit of an issue and I don't really have a good solution. I'd personally only address this after a first round of changes and see if it's even needed.
   • I wouldn't change the augment at all, I think it's good (other than the fact that Limbo has no modding room for all these augments).
5. Rift Surge: is great in concept. Actually it's fantastic in concept. It allows Limbo to chew through enemy hordes at his own pace without ever being in danger of being overwhelmed. It could also allow him to do this in a team setting without disturbing the team... but unfortunately it's implementation falls way short of it's ideal. Rift surge is the tool for bringing new enemies into the rift since you cannot banish enemies that aren't in the rift while in the rift yourself. While it would be fine to put that functionality back into Banish (it is super annoying trying to get new targets that's for sure) it would make Rift Surge somewhat pointless as that's basically it's whole purpose. The idea should be to kill the surged enemies to bring new enemies in, and on and on.
   • This is the biggest functional change I have: I suggest changing it to a channeled ability and having it be a mini-aura around Limbo, so that wherever Limbo goes, as long as it's active, enemies around him in the rift are automatically surged and on death can bring any enemies outside in, so long as they are inside the aura's ring (either a percentage of them or I think better would be all of them). This gives Limbo an easy way to get new targets into the rift, allows him to maintain a semblance of control over how many are coming in (both through modding and target selection) and an easy way to turn it off if things get out of hand. Rift Surge would be a bubble of death following him around inside the rift, bringing new enemies in constantly. This should work well for normal riftwalking, but inside Cataclysm (where all enemies are already inside the rift) it should have a different effect. I leave what this might be up to imagination, it could be an elemental effect, void damage, armor stripping, further cc, healing, energy regen on kill, duration boost on kill, etc etc. If you wanted a bit more of an opportunity cost to it you could make it more like despoil, so that it's a channeled ability but it only costs energy when it is surges an enemy.
   • Alternatively you could have it act like Saryn's spores but in a more limited way, this would let it spread out beyond cataclysm in particular but it would give Limbo much less control over how many enemies he might be facing so I don't like this option as much. He's very fragile due to how many ability stats he needs to build for, he's one of the only remaining pure casters. Possibly you could combine the spore mechanic with the mini-aura in some way so that it has a limiter on it, but that seems overly complicated.
   • Yet another alternative I imagined was that Rift Surge could be a radial pulse that just sucks all enemies in range into the rift. This is equally as good as the mini-aura and maybe even better. It could additionally be a cc ability like airburst/pull but idk that might be too strong (but I will note here that during my many experiments subsuming Mag's pull onto Limbo was rather nice, just to suck enemies into Cataclysm, and I wouldn't mind it at all if Rift Surge worked similarly).
   • I'd only slightly change the Rift Torrent augment so that it applies to every enemy in rift stasis rather than surged enemies, so that it scales a bit rather than being locked to the very few enemies that would be inside of Rift Surge's aura (or pulse). (Or maybe it gets a certain % per stasis enemy and different higher % for each surged enemy; a nice middle ground). It is pretty annoying that it scales with strength too, Limbo honestly doesn't have the mod space to build for duration, range, efficiency AND strength. It's pretty painful, I'd suggest making it scale with something else but I'll leave that one up in the air.
6. The Nullifier Issue: Nullifiers mean that Limbo can't be played in any mission with Corpus or on any fissures, which is just not an acceptable state for a frame. Something needs to be done about this. I'm just going to repeat a suggestion I heard in another thread: let the nullifiers nullify the rift inside their bubble only. Let them act like umbrellas of anti-rift that don't cancel cataclysm, but enable them to walk through it (along with any enemies under their umbrella if you want) until they are popped, at which point they enter the rift. While this would be annoying because it would require Limbo to exit the rift to pop them and then jump back in (and in SP there can be a LOT of nullifiers), that is still infinitely better than canceling his whole ability. In the rift, once their bubble is popped, it wouldn't reactivate as long as stasis is on (which is NOT the current functionality 🤮).

I have a few gripes about Limbo's general survivability, which is funny because technically he's untouchable, but riftwalking is pretty dangerous and would still be so even with all of the above changes - you're made of glass and you're dancing in and out of combat constantly with enemies that can insta-delete you. I died more times playing Limbo recently than I have in quite awhile. This is another thing I'd suggest looking at afterwards to see if it's needed.

Edited March 20 by CrownOfShadows
typos and banish detail

[Graavarg]

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Cataclysm: should change slightly in how it interacts with the team and Limbo himself.

• Should always be cast directly on Limbo's position no matter what. Accidentally casting it 100 meters away is both annoying and unnecessary.

This makes me suspect you haven't played Limbo all that much. Because being able to stand within the Rift and cast Cataclysm somewhere else is a core strength of Limbo play. This allows you to protect defense objectives (without standing next to them), it allows you to freeze and kill enemies at a distance and now with Eximus units messing up the "Limbo Zen" it allows you to pop in and out of the Rift at a safe distance from the Eximus unit(s) and also handle them (or rather their Overguard), at that safe distance (away from all their trickeries and pokeries).

Forcing the Cataclysm on Limbo himself would make him much (MUCH!) more vulnerable, as he would leave the protection of the Rift whenever he moves out from the Cataclysm or whenever he has to recast it. Instead of staying safely within the Rift all the time, but outside the Cataclysm.

Limbo really shines as a tricky supporting warframe, but that has always been wasted on all the ignoramuses that consider him "a nuisance".

And a tip: try him with Silence replacing Rift Surge, and keep Silence up continuously (also syncs well with a Duration/Range build, or with a small Range melee-Limbo).

- - -

Once upon a time when Tenno were still men (and women) instead of crybaby power junkies and we had to do the full 60 minute Kuva Survival, I got asked by low(ish) MR player if I would help him and two friends with the mission. I said "sure, I can take Limbo", and he goes "oh, well, maybe not then...". A couple of hours later he messages me again, asking if I would still help. I did my best "grumpy high MR" and answered "yes, but I WILL take Limbo!".  Ok, so we go into the mission, me with a max duration mini-Cataclysm Limbo. I say: "if you guys can focus to stay alive, kill enemies and not activate the Life Support by mistake, I can handle the Kuva collection". Silence...

So I say "just kill as many enemies as you can, stay together, and wait for someone to rez you if you go down, I'll handle the rest". After 20 minutes or so they got the hang of it (Kuva collection) and despite having to rez them a few times (and their pets a LOT of times🙂) we did the full 60 minutes without any glitches and with a full Kuva haul (minus one). Afterwards I say "well played, GL" or something like that, and one of the guys says: "I don't understand how we just did that...". And that is Limbo for you, in a nutshell 🙂.

Edited March 20 by Graavarg

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 36 minutos, Graavarg dijo:

Limbo really shines as a tricky supporting warframe, but that has always been wasted on all the ignoramuses that consider him "a nuisance".

and it's a pain, if you have a warframe like harrow or citrine, good luck trying to kill the enemies in the rift, being complicated to use doesn't make it "only for smart people", it's a hindrance in the missions, like a slow nova in defense missions.

hace 41 minutos, Graavarg dijo:

Once upon a time when Tenno were still men (and women) instead of crybaby power junkies and we had to do the full 60 minute Kuva Survival, I got asked by low(ish) MR player if I would help him and two friends with the mission. I said "sure, I can take Limbo", and he goes "oh, well, maybe not then...". A couple of hours later he messages me again, asking if I would still help. I did my best "grumpy high MR" and answered "yes, but I WILL take Limbo!".  Ok, so we go into the mission, me with a max duration mini-Cataclysm Limbo. I say: "if you guys can focus to stay alive, kill enemies and not activate the Life Support by mistake, I can handle the Kuva collection". Silence...

So I say "just kill as many enemies as you can, stay together, and wait for someone to rez you if you go down, I'll handle the rest". After 20 minutes or so they got the hang of it (Kuva collection) and despite having to rez them a few times (and their pets a LOT of times🙂) we did the full 60 minutes without any glitches and with a full Kuva haul (minus one). Afterwards I say "well played, GL" or something like that, and one of the guys says: "I don't understand how we just did that...". And that is Limbo for you, in a nutshell 🙂.

nice anecdote, it's a shame that that doesn't highlight Limbo at all, you can do the same "feat" with almost any warframe.

[BoredFinno]

The only valid suggestion you r making here is the rift clarity. Your idea for tweaking his abilities literally break the flow of his gameplay. The point of hold function on banish is so you can use the effect of surge. it was less annoying than banishing a single surged enemy to drag like 3 more around him. Just hold banish and bring in like 30 more enemies. Making Surge a channel has anti-synergy with rift passive, which gives energy regen and energy on kill, which channeled abilities disable. Making it "spores like" is pointless since it already functions in that way. The reason cataclysm shrinks is that once a surged enemy OUTSIDE of the rift touches the bubble and leaves it, it propagates the "rifting" of the enemies beyond cataclysms range. Its way more controlling while already functioning in a similar way. Having stasis be a slow makes it a wacky gloom. The Cataclysm casting on limbo himself would be a major nerf to how he works. Having small bubble cast 30 meters away from u allows you to shoot enemies in the bubble AS LONG as u r in the rift as well. This is one of the builds that allows limbo to be played in pubs while not being so much of a "nuisance".

[Graavarg]

14 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

and it's a pain, if you have a warframe like harrow or citrine, good luck trying to kill the enemies in the rift, being complicated to use doesn't make it "only for smart people", it's a hindrance in the missions, like a slow nova in defense missions.

🙂.

I don't want to get into a "hate Limbo/love Limbo"-discussion, but I do think you are completely wrong on both counts. However, I also think that is because we are talking about two different things, I was pointing out that Limbo can be an extremely useful support in smart co-op squad play while you are referencing coming across a random Limbo in a random PUG.

Warframes are not created equal, not for their usefulness when thrown into a mission together with three other random warframes and not for taking on a designated role in a predesigned team. Limbo shines in the latter role, but can suck in the former when used by a "not so competent" Limbo user. 

 

14 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

nice anecdote, it's a shame that that doesn't highlight Limbo at all, you can do the same "feat" with almost any warframe.

Almost any warframe can keep the Kuva harvesters safe in a 60 minute Kuva survival, while helping three other mid-MR players that are a bit out of their depth and at the same time letting them actually participate in the mission? 🙂

Maybe you are missing the point and thinking along the lines of "oooh, I am so incredibly powerful I can just kill everything and anything regardless of which warframe I use"? Any player can understand that approach, regardless of warframe/abilities. But actually understanding Limbo and how the Rift should be used, not so many... 

And on that note, why on earth do you think that a Limbo/Citrine- or a Limbo/Harrow-combo doesn't work? We used to have both Harrow and Limbo in our squad setup, explicitly because they work so well together (this was long before Citrine and/or Cascadia Overcharge). 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 3 horas, Graavarg dijo:

I don't want to get into a "hate Limbo/love Limbo"-discussion, but I do think you are completely wrong on both counts. However, I also think that is because we are talking about two different things, I was pointing out that Limbo can be an extremely useful support in smart co-op squad play while you are referencing coming across a random Limbo in a random PUG.

Warframes are not created equal, not for their usefulness when thrown into a mission together with three other random warframes and not for taking on a designated role in a predesigned team. Limbo shines in the latter role, but can suck in the former when used by a "not so competent" Limbo user.

Me neither, nothing will change my mind that a limbo in a game is to start reconsidering the abandon mission button, the only people I have encountered who manage it without hindering others is when they do not use their 1 and 3 and have minimum range.

hace 3 horas, Graavarg dijo:

Almost any warframe can keep the Kuva harvesters safe in a 60 minute Kuva survival, while helping three other mid-MR players that are a bit out of their depth and at the same time letting them actually participate in the mission?

Yes, haven't you tried it?

hace 3 horas, Graavarg dijo:

Maybe you are missing the point and thinking along the lines of "oooh, I am so incredibly powerful I can just kill everything and anything regardless of which warframe I use"? Any player can understand that approach, regardless of warframe/abilities. But actually understanding Limbo and how the Rift should be used, not so many...

You can defend an objective in different ways: CC, killing all enemies in the area or using defensive abilities such as limbo, gara, frost and volt, you can even do it using weapons that spread cold status in the area with status duration.

hace 3 horas, Graavarg dijo:

And on that note, why on earth do you think that a Limbo/Citrine- or a Limbo/Harrow-combo doesn't work? We used to have both Harrow and Limbo in our squad setup, explicitly because they work so well together (this was long before Citrine and/or Cascadia Overcharge). 

If a Limbo sends enemies into the rift, Warframes like Harrow and Citrine don't have abilities that can kill them, unlike Warframes like Mesa, Volt, and Saryn who don't have much trouble with this.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-03-20 at 3:10 PM, Graavarg said:

This makes me suspect you haven't played Limbo all that much. Because being able to stand within the Rift and cast Cataclysm somewhere else is a core strength of Limbo play.

I've never once had a desire to do this and never once seen another Limbo player do it (on purpose) and cannot see a single benefit in doing it.

On 2024-03-20 at 3:10 PM, Graavarg said:

This allows you to protect defense objectives (without standing next to them), it allows you to freeze and kill enemies at a distance and now with Eximus units messing up the "Limbo Zen" it allows you to pop in and out of the Rift at a safe distance from the Eximus unit(s) and also handle them (or rather their Overguard), at that safe distance (away from all their trickeries and pokeries).

So let me get this straight, what you're doing is launching Cataclysm away from you somewhere and using yourself as 'bait' for the Eximus? But the defense objective always has higher priority for the enemies than you do.... and presumably you're in the rift out there instead of actually facing the eximus 1 on 1, yeah I'm not understanding this. Are you relying on your team or something? Are you dropping out and stripping their overguard and then banishing them and then jumping back into the rift and then fighting them? (extremely inefficient). Cataclysm is the ultimate realization of rift protection, you are not better protected outside of it (and neither are you worse protected - they are the same, distance from the enemies is the only thing you gain). Wander out 30m to fight an eximus? Great there are 3 more banging on your defense objective. You aren't drawing all the eximus to you wherever you are, the defense objective has the aggro, distance only helps you if you have a team dealing with everything you don't want to.

On 2024-03-20 at 3:10 PM, Graavarg said:

Forcing the Cataclysm on Limbo himself would make him much (MUCH!) more vulnerable, as he would leave the protection of the Rift whenever he moves out from the Cataclysm or whenever he has to recast it. Instead of staying safely within the Rift all the time, but outside the Cataclysm.

Uh... what?!? Cataclysm is infinitely safer than the "real world" because of both stasis and rift surge and basic rift dynamics where you just jump out if need be. Casting Cataclysm around you is always ALWAYS better than casting it somewhere else. 'Leave the protection of the rift'... or just stay in the rift? Sorry this is complete nonesense, there is no difference between being in the rift in cataclysm and being in the rift outside of it. Are you not using stasis or banish or rift surge? Are you just afk Limbo after 4?

On 2024-03-20 at 3:10 PM, Graavarg said:

And a tip: try him with Silence replacing Rift Surge, and keep Silence up continuously (also syncs well with a Duration/Range build, or with a small Range melee-Limbo).

Yeah silence is old news on him. Good for eximus and acolytes for sure. Good enough to replace rift surge? Depends, I'd say usually yes; Violence is a major kill-joy.

[CrownOfShadows]

Rift Surge is the linchpin in Limbo's kit (aside from visual FX). It's both holding him back from greatness and also it can completely break his kit if it's not done well.

Right now it's broken. Fix up Rift Surge and you fix Limbo, that basically sums it up.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-03-21 at 6:39 AM, BoredFinno said:

The only valid suggestion you r making here is the rift clarity. Your idea for tweaking his abilities literally break the flow of his gameplay. The point of hold function on banish is so you can use the effect of surge. it was less annoying than banishing a single surged enemy to drag like 3 more around him. Just hold banish and bring in like 30 more enemies. Making Surge a channel has anti-synergy with rift passive, which gives energy regen and energy on kill, which channeled abilities disable. Making it "spores like" is pointless since it already functions in that way. The reason cataclysm shrinks is that once a surged enemy OUTSIDE of the rift touches the bubble and leaves it, it propagates the "rifting" of the enemies beyond cataclysms range. Its way more controlling while already functioning in a similar way. Having stasis be a slow makes it a wacky gloom. The Cataclysm casting on limbo himself would be a major nerf to how he works. Having small bubble cast 30 meters away from u allows you to shoot enemies in the bubble AS LONG as u r in the rift as well. This is one of the builds that allows limbo to be played in pubs while not being so much of a "nuisance".

1. I'll look into this point about banishing
2. Energy regen is NOT a problem with Limbo, I could care less about his passive at this point. If it was between and upgrade to Limbo or his passive, yeah I'll take the upgrade.
3. Spore-like; NO it does NOT function that way, not at all. The randomness is a real problem, are you saying that it's fine in its current state, just some random enemy within range?
4. I understand the idea of Rift Surge theoretically propagating beyond cataclysm, but in practicality this isn't very effective. Why? Because of the above problem.
5. Stasis being a slow being a wacky gloom. Are you saying that enemies stacking up at the boundary is the ideal? Is that great for YOU? Is that great for your TEAM?
6. I already commented on this remote casting but I'll reiterate it here. What you seem to basically be doing is hiding 30-50 meters away from the defense objective and just occasionally casting 4 on it. Is that correct?

[BoredFinno]

Listen, it's clear that u want the best for this frame, but there is a clear lack of experience and full understanding of this frame:

U can't not care about limbo's passive, as this is what makes limbo functions and creates a "dump" stat which every frame kinda needs. In Limbo's case, this is efficiency. As i said, surge is already spores-like, difference being that it doesnt spread to all enemies, it moves to the nearest one, that is in a material plane. I do think its absolutely fine the way it already is. Its practicality is very effective in fact, cause it fixes ur issue with enemies stacking at the edge, making them hard to shoot - it keeps them in the rift plane in case they leave cataclysm. y do i think surge is fine the way it is? if it worked more like spores, you would have enemies 500 meters away frozen somewhere disrupting enemy flow in survivals. Since its range is this way in a way limited to cataclysms, its much more manageable. You talking about cataclysm makes me think you dont fully grasp how 2 planes function. You can cast a small cataclysm 30 meters away at a choke point, to grab a group of enemies at which u shoot, while u r in the rift. I dont understand y do u think cataclysm is purely a safety zone for limbo and objectives. Its literally more of a lingering banish, whose one of the uses is also defense. The way one plays this frame depends a lot on a mission type you are running. You won't use cataclysm the same way in survival as you would in defense. And again, taking this tool away would kill even that possibility of playing limbo in a public squad and not being disruptive to the rest.

You are either not experienced enough with this frame or not creative enough. Surge is disruptive only if you choose to use it as a set and forget ability. Banish hold function is also a way for u to not seek out a single enemy stuck somewhere in the rift, waiting for u to kill it to move on with the defense.
 

[CrownOfShadows]

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

difference being that it doesnt spread to all enemies, it moves to the nearest one, that is in a material plane.

this is completely false. It's a random enemy in range.

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

I do think its absolutely fine the way it already is.

🤢🤮 No bruh, it is not fine, it sucks. We're gonna have to disagree on this. This is the kindof thing I'd say if I read the read the ability description and not the post I referenced. Like try playing Limbo without Cataclysm, the way he's kinda supposed to be played. It's SO lame. You cannot reliably fight enemies. Does it work sometimes? Sure. Is it good, is it reliable, does it fulfill the purpose of Rift Surge? No. Very much no. It's a great concept with terrible implementation.

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

U can't not care about limbo's passive, as this is what makes limbo functions and creates a "dump" stat which every frame kinda needs. In Limbo's case, this is efficiency.

Just running energize I haven't had a single problem with energy. Can't relate. 10 energy is nothing. Bad hill to die on imo.

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

You talking about cataclysm makes me think you dont fully grasp how 2 planes function. You can cast a small cataclysm 30 meters away at a choke point, to grab a group of enemies at which u shoot, while u r in the rift. I dont understand y do u think cataclysm is purely a safety zone for limbo and objectives. Its literally more of a lingering banish, whose one of the uses is also defense. The way one plays this frame depends a lot on a mission type you are running. You won't use cataclysm the same way in survival as you would in defense. And again, taking this tool away would kill even that possibility of playing limbo in a public squad and not being disruptive to the rest.

Lol. Maybe. But are you hiding 30-50m away and just casting Cataclysm on the objective? You seem to have dodged this question.

And yes I completely agree, how you play him changes dramatically on the mission type. If there's no defense objective then it's almost completely different, but your responses regarding Rift Surge make ME think YOU don't regularly play him THAT way, otherwise you'd have a much bigger issue with how it works. People who aren't irritated by Rift Surge's mechanics are people who don't rely on it / don't use it / don't understand it imx.

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

And again, taking this tool away would kill even that possibility of playing limbo in a public squad and not being disruptive to the rest.

It would not at all 'be disruptive'. You could just cast Cataclysm while near the objective. How is that killing it? It's the EXACT same 'disruptiveness' as casting it from somewhere else?

25 minutes ago, BoredFinno said:

You are either not experienced enough with this frame or not creative enough.

Both might be true. I'm famously an idiot.

Edited March 23 by CrownOfShadows

[BoredFinno]

Listen buddy, i play a lot of this frame. I use surge daily. Playing limbo without cataclysm is absolutely and completely viable. Its even recommended if u gonna engage with helminth that u swap cataclysm. Surge's implementation is almost perfect as it is. Reason you dont rely on energize is cause u want to stay in the rift for as long as u can, only occasionally popping out if u r out of enemies in the rift or need to pick up life support. That said, is playing limbo without surge possible? absolutely, u could play him in a way to pop a "ptivate" arena on top of the enemies, kill em, and move on to next group. But this is not fully utilizing this frame. Now, for me "dodging" ur question. The question you are asking is already pointless, as i described, ur playstyle changes depending on the mission type. No, i wont cast cataclysm 50 m away from objective in a defense, but i will do it in survival. And removing this would be a major nerf and would really shrink possible builds with limbo. Or perhaps, i will do that with a certain build and playstyle, its possible, viable and fun. Limbo is extremely flexible and diverse in his builds, so much so i cant fit everything i want in all the build configs available. If you feel like you are casting his cata too far away, cast it at your feet.

Now, if you cool down and instead of trying to make urself right, calling hills to die on and whatnot, maybe open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. I can see that you are a veteran player, having 4x my active playtime, but u also have 1% limbo playtime with limbo and limbo prime combined. I have 20%. I play this frame every day. I've been doing so for 6 or so years. I don't tell you how ur protea should be played and that her kit is wrong. Don't do the same to us limbo mains. Instead of getting heated over being called out for being wrong, perhaps ask what is wrong in ur understanding of the frame and ur playstile. If you want to give up on him, u do u. But if u give him a bit more time and actually try to understand him and get creative with ways you play him, you will find that he really doesnt need the changes you proposed and would understand that does actually kill his core design and idea. They water him down and make him similar to already existing frames, instead of a unique case. And unique is usually better. Not at any cost, but usually it is. And if you are annoyed by surge, simply put roar, eclipse or something else over it. Its ur frame, make it work how u like it to work.

I have nothing more to add here. This either convinces u or not. Have a nice day and what not.

Edited March 23 by BoredFinno

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, BoredFinno said:

Listen buddy, i play a lot of this frame. I use surge daily. Playing limbo without cataclysm is absolutely and completely viable. Its even recommended if u gonna engage with helminth that u swap cataclysm. Surge's implementation is almost perfect as it is. Reason you dont rely on energize is cause u want to stay in the rift for as long as u can, only occasionally popping out if u r out of enemies in the rift or need to pick up life support. That said, is playing limbo without surge possible? absolutely, u could play him in a way to pop a "ptivate" arena on top of the enemies, kill em, and move on to next group. But this is not fully utilizing this frame. Now, for me "dodging" ur question. The question you are asking is already pointless, as i described, ur playstyle changes depending on the mission type. No, i wont cast cataclysm 50 m away from objective in a defense, but i will do it in survival. And removing this would be a major nerf and would really shrink possible builds with limbo. Or perhaps, i will do that with a certain build and playstyle, its possible, viable and fun. Limbo is extremely flexible and diverse in his builds, so much so i cant fit everything i want in all the build configs available. If you feel like you are casting his cata too far away, cast it at your feet.

Now, if you cool down and instead of trying to make urself right, calling hills to die on and whatnot, maybe open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. I can see that you are a veteran player, having 4x my active playtime, but u also have 1% limbo playtime with limbo and limbo prime combined. I have 20%. I play this frame every day. I've been doing so for 6 or so years. I don't tell you how ur protea should be played and that her kit is wrong. Don't do the same to us limbo mains. Instead of getting heated over being called out for being wrong, perhaps ask what is wrong in ur understanding of the frame and ur playstile. If you want to give up on him, u do u. But if u give him a bit more time and actually try to understand him and get creative with ways you play him, you will find that he really doesnt need the changes you proposed and would understand that does actually kill his core design and idea. They water him down and make him similar to already existing frames, instead of a unique case. And unique is usually better. Not at any cost, but usually it is. 

I have nothing more to add here. This either convinces u or not. Have a nice day and what not.

Yup, not convinced. Thanks for not addressing any of the issues, have fun out there.

[Graavarg]

On 2024-03-23 at 12:27 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

I've never once had a desire to do this and never once seen another Limbo player do it (on purpose) and cannot see a single benefit in doing it.

...

So let me get this straight, what you're doing is launching Cataclysm away from you somewhere and using yourself as 'bait' for the Eximus? But the defense objective always has higher priority for the enemies than you do.... and presumably you're in the rift out there instead of actually facing the eximus 1 on 1, yeah I'm not understanding this. Are you relying on your team or something? Are you dropping out and stripping their overguard and then banishing them and then jumping back into the rift and then fighting them? (extremely inefficient).

...

Uh... what?!? Cataclysm is infinitely safer than the "real world" because of both stasis and rift surge and basic rift dynamics where you just jump out if need be. Casting Cataclysm around you is always ALWAYS better than casting it somewhere else. 'Leave the protection of the rift'... or just stay in the rift?

...

I don't care how you play Limbo, so feel free to play him whichever way you want. 

However, just a few things. Limbo can rift (and "un-rift") immediately simply by rolling, which is much faster than casting Cataclysm (and Stasis). Cataclysm has a fairly long casting animation (2 sec.), during which you are vulnerable if you "un-rift" due to Cataclysm collapsing (running out or being deactivated, or "nullified"). You are safer and have more control if you stay in the Rift outside Cataclysm, and you can kill all the enemies just as well (unless you want to melee them to death from within the Cataclysm). Speaking of meleeing, one fairly effective way to kill enemies frozen in the Rift is from outside with a (potentially heavy attack modded) gunblade, you can even increase the trickery factor by "slam attacking"...

Just about the only thing that can (currently) hurt Limbo while in the Rift, with Stasis up, are Eximus unit abilities. In SP higher level missions that can become quite intense (and even more so with some tiles/settings). Silence + keeping a distance is simply the best way to keep control of that situation, once insta-killing all enemies is not an option anymore.

I don't quite understand your comments about Limbo having to "leave the rift" by not staying within a Cataclysm, as Limbo can "rift" wherever/whenever he wants. Cataclysm is not "just another Snow Globe, but different", the Rift is another dimension which only Limbo can manipulate. As an example, you can dump a Cataclysm (from a distance) where enemies are approaching and stand outside (on the other side of) it and shoot through it, killing the approaching un-rifted enemies that cannot even reach you (and also remove the Overguard from approaching Eximus units) and then stepping into the Rift (by doing a simple roll, or jumping sideways or backwards) and killing the enemies frozen in the Rift.

I already stated that I am 100% not interested in another Limbo debate, so I was only trying to help. If it doesn't help you, the way you want to play Limbo, maybe it helps someone else. Limbo really is "tricky"...

Edited March 24 by Graavarg

[CrownOfShadows]

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I don't quite understand your comments about Limbo having to "leave the rift" by not staying within a Cataclysm, as Limbo can "rift" wherever/whenever he wants. Cataclysm is not "just another Snow Globe, but different", the Rift is another dimension which only Limbo can manipulate. As an example, you can dump a Cataclysm (from a distance) where enemies are approaching and stand outside (on the other side of) it and shoot through it, killing the approaching un-rifted enemies that cannot even reach you (and also remove the Overguard from approaching Eximus units) and then stepping into the Rift (by doing a simple roll, or jumping sideways or backwards) and killing the enemies frozen in the Rift.

The point I was trying to make here is that enemies have the same benefit. If you cast cataclysm away from you, the enemies in it can still shoot back at you if you're in the rift outside just like you can shoot them. Thus there's not really any extra protection in casting it around you verses a few meters away.

[CrownOfShadows]

Not sure how to bump this without being a tool, but I saw a new Limbo post and just wanted to push this one back up a page for visibility while if possible promoting there's as well.

Take the best ideas of both, he needs some love for sure. Not as much as Chroma or Vauban or a couple others, but he definitely still needs it. This latest one has some pretty good ideas included that are worth considering, if DE even looks at this stuff idk.

I kinda wish there was a frame-specific section so this wouldn't be necessary and all the Limbo posts before us could be viewed as well, some of them VERY well informed, more than me, that's for sure. But then I guess the urgency of a rework wouldn't come through, so I guess we just need to spam enough that DE sighs and agrees.

[Greysmog]

47 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Not sure how to bump this without being a tool, but I saw a new Limbo post and just wanted to push this one back up a page for visibility while if possible promoting there's as well.

Take the best ideas of both, he needs some love for sure. Not as much as Chroma or Vauban or a couple others, but he definitely still needs it. This latest one has some pretty good ideas included that are worth considering, if DE even looks at this stuff idk.

I kinda wish there was a frame-specific section so this wouldn't be necessary and all the Limbo posts before us could be viewed as well, some of them VERY well informed, more than me, that's for sure. But then I guess the urgency of a rework wouldn't come through, so I guess we just need to spam enough that DE sighs and agrees.

Hey man!, thank you for the bump as well, I like the concept of just making Rift Surge a channeled ability.

It might honestly be easier than keeping the current spread effect the ability has, but I liked the idea of it being limited and forcing more interaction from the player through continuous casting. The problem is Limbo already does that a lot with the reworked Stasis and Banish, so also adding Rift Surge onto that might be overwhelming.

Since my rework wants you to cast as often as possible with Limbo, it might make more sense to have it apply passively to enemies that are Rifted in general, just to make the casting focus more towards Stasis and Banish while making Limbo juggle timers a little less.

Edited April 3 by Greysmog