RNG Equipment is Bad Game Design

[desdendelle]

I'm going to copy-paste what I said about Undercroft equipment RNG because it's just as relevant to Deep Archemedea.

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So RNG equipment means that, if you don't get good (or at least decent) equipment, it's practically impossible for you to do the current rotation of SP Circuit unless you reset the RNG.

Not only is this an unfun chore, it's also not how properly-designed roguelikes work. To take Hades as an example, you get to pick your weapon (always), you get to influence the RNG part in a manner that's similar to locking a stat on a Riven (you can equip a Keepsake that guarantees the first boon you get to be from a specific god), and while there are better boons/builds, no build is useless - you can clear high-Heat runs with just about any build (or without any boon at all if you're good enough). Compare/contrast the situation here, where, again, if you don't get good RNG, you're screwed.

Being able to see the RNG's results before you load into the mission isn't even a band-aid.

So DE, please mitigate or remove SP Circuit equipment RNG.

TL;DR if I see another Buzlok + Mutalist Cernos + Pulmonars + Pupacyst + Pathocyst + Talons + Cyanax roll, it's not going to make me try out any of those, it's just a waste of my time, DE please fix.

This is doubly bad in Deep Archemedea for a few reasons:

• No Decrees to carry B- and C-tier weapons
• No ability to "roll" the RNG by wasting some time
• Nastier enemies
• Various modifiers like "enemies are invulnerable if they're too far away"

Equipment RNG in Deep Archemedea is what TvTropes calls Fake Difficulty. It's not fun, it's frustrating, and it's bad game design.

I've been playing Warframe for nearly ten years at this point and this is the game design decision I like the least - it's worse than Liches on launch, Defection and "It's rAiNiNg iN ThE DeReLiCt" combined.

I'd say "DE please fix" but the only fix is to replace this system with something else.

[Redrigoth]

Imagine all the people joining/leaving squads nonstop cuz their options are not viable and they are fishing for squad that can carry them through Elite Deep-A

Imagine not being able to play the game how you want with the stuff you built for challenging content because RNG. Is this a game or a tedious part time weekly job?

And the vosfor reward is 20/50. Lol 3 weeks of suffering buys you 1 arcane pack that will probably give you 3 arcanes you already have as you fish for the few you don't have.

And one of the debuffs say you can't use operator. No unairu armor strip against enemies with 3 different damage mitigation buffs. No zenurik energy for your RNG energy dependent frame. No vazarin for your rng frames with no survivability in their kit. No madurai void strike to help you actually be able to kill these roided up enemies in your ever-decreasing last gasp which you will need cuz your loadout gonna suck.

And you can't stack up points across multiple runs. It's all or nothing so you can't even have 1 good thing.

The RNG should be abolished. Replace it with more hazards and a slight level bump. And fix necramech not being able to be armor stripped. It already has high damage resistance and will get even more from the enemy buffs and it has a limit of 4 procs per type.

[Sopje]

Well, you can have 1 good thing.....If you forgo the precious 50 vosfor ( that 10 min of SP will get you easy)

So you choose: Revenant and not die but doing no damage, or grab your torid and die al the time with an unbuild/not farmad/no potato warframe.

Great experience i can tell you, really had fun!

[CrownOfShadows]

Well, I agree and disagree. It sucks for people without robust arsenals, just like the Circuit sucks for them, which I sympathize with 100%.

I was helping a friend get into WF and in that process I got to experience how truly bad RNG equipment is. It sucks, but it really sucks in SP

BUT, I feel obligated to highlight the other side of this, where people have everything, and not only do they have it but they've sunk a lot of resources into it too. For these people (of which I am one) there is almost no such thing as a bad random weapon/frame.

NOTE: before I get flailed, this is not 100% true. There are still some weapons and some frames that truly suck and that I absolutely hate playing with even though I've invested in them.

So... anyways, this is meant to be "end game" content (I think?) so it should cater to the end game, which is basically get everything and make it good by pumping 3-5 forma into it. The issue is that this content is available WAY, WAY, WAY - seriously WAY, no really WAY before anyone hits that point. So this is a failure to gate this content appropriately probably.

[desdendelle]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, I agree and disagree. It sucks for people without robust arsenals, just like the Circuit sucks for them, which I sympathize with 100%.

I was helping a friend get into WF and in that process I got to experience how truly bad RNG equipment is. It sucks, but it really sucks in SP

BUT, I feel obligated to highlight the other side of this, where people have everything, and not only do they have it but they've sunk a lot of resources into it too. For these people (of which I am one) there is almost no such thing as a bad random weapon/frame.

NOTE: before I get flailed, this is not 100% true. There are still some weapons and some frames that truly suck and that I absolutely hate playing with even though I've invested in them.

So... anyways, this is meant to be "end game" content (I think?) so it should cater to the end game, which is basically get everything and make it good by pumping 3-5 forma into it. The issue is that this content is available WAY, WAY, WAY - seriously WAY, no really WAY before anyone hits that point. So this is a failure to gate this content appropriately probably.

As mentioned, I've been playing Warframe for nearly ten years (since December '14, to be exact). I'll be LR2 once I level a couple of things. I should, sensibly, be able to engage with "endgame" content. But I don't have every single weapon, whether because I levelled and sold them or because I never got them (yes, I'm totally going to farm Fieldron for Clantech weapons that were powercrept years ago...), nor do I like or use every weapon or frame I have. I shouldn't be forced away from the equipment I worked on and enjoy using just to appease the streamers that put 10k hours into the game, nor should a MR15 newbie be forced to do the same, nor should you. Obviously you can't satisfy everybody, and designing a game mode for the promille of players that happen to have 5 Forma on literally every Tysis and Limbo on the game is just bad decisionmaking.

[desudesudesu]

7 hours ago, Sopje said:

Well, you can have 1 good thing.....If you forgo the precious 50 vosfor ( that 10 min of SP will get you easy)

You can have 3 good things, since you can forfeit 3 points from 34 to 37 if you don't care about additional vosphor
 

7 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, I agree and disagree. It sucks for people without robust arsenals, just like the Circuit sucks for them, which I sympathize with 100%.

No, it sucks more and even punishes people for having a formidable gear selection: in Circuit, if all is really bad, you can do 1 round to reroll, or even just wait for 2ish hours for the mood to change, in this mode, well, you're stuck with choices rng gave for the week.


IDK, just separate rewards so you can get like 10 points by replaying a mission a couple of times per week and 27 more for participating in rng circus and imho it should be fine.

[Vector-Sigma]

(Emotional rant..)

I dislike this mode. I'm sorry my arsenal isn't robust and all my Warframe's are not modded and equipped to kill and take damage at 200+ Guess I'm a 8000+ Hours failure to not making Nova a killer of levels, how my Nekros that I put some effort couldn't take a hit, how my incarnon Latron prime couldn't kill a Necramech but other enemies. Sorry that I SOLO this game and all my years doesn't pay off. Once again all my Arcanes revives are not used, sorry I can't take a 300 hit from a dog machine with armor being useless except to enemy and find this fun. I have only 1 main and I can't mod correctly.

Circuit was doable for decrees. Oh, here comes a rogue bone widow with insane damage and I must be in melee reach? I need to do what for Elite? Siiggghhh... Guess my solo butt is obsolete. Wish I could be like the ones who can solo this. This is how this mode makes me feel and I'm tired of this direction of TOUGH MODE EQUAL SPONGE and possible one hit death. Just doing my best to enjoy but I'm tired that I'm not a wizard of modding and the auto placing mods doesn't help. If this is more to come I'll just avoid, haven't finished SP because its not fun. They treat these new modes like arcade arena shooters but not much of positve stats to help out. Sorry if I'm not saying anything substantial, I just want fun not this grueling.