PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Thundervolt]

The overguard changes are great but it still needs more adjustements, why do rage and adrenaline only works on Inaros and Nidus when overguarded ? What about other frames using these mods to gain energy but that have shields ? And some frames needs more interactions with overguard like Chroma's Vex Armor, to name one, Equinox using her 3rd with her augment still cannot gain slow buildup in night form while overguarded.

[SneakyErvin]

11 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Are we sure its 360 degrees and not that enemies are considered in LoS for about 1 sec after they leave LoS? I believe its been tested that enemies are affected by LoS for about 1 sec after they leave it. Is it also possible that the 360 degree only applies to the 5 meters range for automatically being considered in LoS? I haven't done enough testing on the changes to see what the case are, but I have not seen it hitting 360 degrees unless the enemy was very close.

Yes, it is designed as a radius skill, hence why it hit whole maps before. The only thing that has changed is that it has a LoS requirement, nothing with the radius has changed. DE even highlights how it works on such skills. And more than 1 second passed between turning and detonating, since each group was primed with 33 and I was atlast 15 meters away from the group behind me. It is also hard to notice a 360 degree hit without priming properly since the initial damage of the skill is so horrible. And I've avoided testing in sim since I dont want to bother with potential sim specific bugs.

4 minutes ago, Thundervolt said:

The overguard changes are great but it still needs more adjustements, why do rage and adrenaline only works on Inaros and Nidus when overguarded ? What about other frames using these mods to gain energy but that have shields ? And some frames needs more interactions with overguard like Chroma's Vex Armor, to name one, Equinox using her 3rd with her augment still cannot gain slow buildup in night form while overguarded.

Have people tested it on shield frames with the changes? Since the wording seems to imply it will work since shield are not active when OG is covering a frame.

Vex armor was also buffed so there is no issue really, since you build it by killing now aswell and not just getting hit.

Edited April 11 by SneakyErvin

[LordOfKenpo]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes, it is designed as a radius skill, hence why it hit whole maps before. The only thing that has changed is that it has a LoS requirement, nothing with the radius has changed. DE even highlights how it works on such skills. And more than 1 second passed between turning and detonating, since each group was primed with 33 and I was atlast 15 meters away from the group behind me. It is also hard to notice a 360 degree hit without priming properly since the initial damage of the skill is so horrible. And I've avoided testing in sim since I dont want to bother with potential sim specific bugs.

Cool though its nearly impossible to know what's within LoS in all directions since the game only gives LoS in 1 direction (the one you're facing). Still not great design, but it just means occasionally you'll get some extra damage/kills out of it. Ideally it just being an AOE would be better, but 360 degree ray tracing checks may explain why it slows downs some people's machines

Edited April 11 by LordOfKenpo

[NhChef]

Played after the most recent update and yes I agree that the conversation must stay open as things are really not ok.

Dante LOS changes must go, it is not just very underwhelming now, the interaction with enemies on the field it's so inconsistent that baffles me how after so many years of expertise a group of devs decided that was ok to implement such broken mechanic and then keep doubling down on it against all the community feedback.

Also after testing the other abilities with LOS that supposedly should have been improved, I suggest you just scrap LOS from the game, especially for abilities that radiates around from self. I believe it really goes against a lot of core designs of the game both environmental (Tilesets) and play style wise.

The Overguard situation made it clear that interactions with mods that synergies with health loss/gain like Archon Intensify, Hunter Adrenaline, ecc..  should be encouraged and better implemented to all frames. Potentially removing some of the restrictions and making it universally work with overguard. Now that we have things like Precision Intensify, Nourish + Energy Nexus and tons of more synergies, I don't understand gate-keeping a few mods that could be made relevant and interesting for more frames to use.

The CC changes were really uncalled for, although I agree that bypassing eximus status immunity should be reserved to a very selected few abilities, it did seemed to work with what we had before, it didn't seemed broken hence why fix it. Maybe reducing such roster of abilities of a bit would have been a more conscious choice.

Now, the Deep Archemidea mode also need to be addressed, cause it is flawed beyond reason and the only reason why people don't talk more about it is because all the other negative things that came along with it. 

I was expecting a new game mode, we really didn't need another re-skinned sorties. Although I like the idea of doing 3 missions in a row they could have done so much more, even something like hybrid missions where objectives overlaps such as a disruption and a survival at the same time, or missions where you have to clear a bunch of chambers from very tanky elite enemies from all other groups that were for some reason trapped in the labs. I mean I feel there are a number of ways that DE could have made things interesting without a great investment of resources from their side and I can't help feeling that this attempt really under-delivered. 

I found the modifiers idea cool even if some of them should be tweaked, but that's definitely not the worst part.

Putting load out restriction that you cannot bypass even by not equipping a weapon in the slot, in a game where 95% of the weapons can't even tackle basic steel path without a potato, an arcane and 4+ formas, is clearly an anti-consumer choice aimed to make you spend plat and resources either for acquiring or properly mod that said weapons. It is also extremely limiting for a lot of players who wants to enjoy the builds they invested in, in high level content. 

There could be so many other things to add but I just want to share one last thing.

With the incarnons, the reworks, the new mods, tennokai, the arcanes, ecc.. In the past months it really felt like the game is going in a very exciting direction, I'm sure most people share the same feeling and enjoyed the new content. The Dante launch also came in strong but then DE with this updates you are obfuscating a lot of the good that you created recently, with what feels like really poor choices and a direction that even if perhaps involuntarily,  fundamentally goes against the players.

[MouthfulOJoules]

20 hours ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Cool though its nearly impossible to know what's within LoS in all directions since the game only gives LoS in 1 direction (the one you're facing). Still not great design, but it just means occasionally you'll get some extra damage/kills out of it. Ideally it just being an AOE would be better, but 360 degree ray tracing checks may explain why it slows downs some people's machines

Actually, sounds like it would be nice to have a function like enemy highlighting but that shows you what the LOS considers hittable right now. But the performance tanking that would happen from doing that is not worth it.

 

19 hours ago, NhChef said:

Also after testing the other abilities with LOS that supposedly should have been improved, I suggest you just scrap LOS from the game, especially for abilities that radiates around from self. I believe it really goes against a lot of core designs of the game both environmental (Tilesets) and play style wise.

They won't do it, but agreed. LOS implementation has been poor across the board.

 

19 hours ago, NhChef said:

The Overguard situation made it clear

That overguard was a mistake (maybe apart from Nidus/Inaros) but if we're staying with said mistake, DE might as well improve its interactions and make it make sense and not a definite debuff (btw IIRC there are incarnon evolutions that depend on your shields being broken, that, I presume, still get screwed over by OG too.)
 

19 hours ago, NhChef said:

The CC changes were really uncalled for

Agreed.

 

19 hours ago, NhChef said:

Now, the Deep Archemidea mode also need to be addressed, cause it is flawed beyond reason and the only reason why people don't talk more about it is because all the other negative things that came along with it. 

Yes. To the many points that you've made I'd like to also add that for an "endgame challenge" decree-less circuit sortie reskin, the rewards are also not that worth it in the long term (and a bunch in the short term), apart from archon shards. Reminder, there's the chance to get up to 4 melee arcane adapters, and you definitely need those guaranteed 3 entrati lanthrons and 70 vosfor.

 

19 hours ago, NhChef said:

With the incarnons, the reworks, the new mods, tennokai, the arcanes, ecc.. In the past months it really felt like the game is going in a very exciting direction

Until a significant portion of it turned out to be not too well thought-out, buggy and/or poorly implemented, a bunch of stuff was nerfed HARD, and it seems that we're looking at a devteam that's trying hard to do exciting things but not putting them through due QA and rushing things. It would be nice if public test servers made a comeback, but no, instead it's release raw, collect subpar data from global and then say "it's nerfin' time", once enough plat has been erased through people buying resources.
 

 

23 hours ago, RyllusPurple said:

can you let us finish dante's empty leverian?
can you let bonewidows throw eximus into the alchemy machine?

And since noone's answered you yet, i think...
1. Dante's leverian is going to stay like this for the next few years at least, if it's not in its finished state right now. The quest was about as detailed as Dagath/Voruna/Citrine, except citrine had a whole new game mode (though i hate classic Mirror Def with a passion), Voruna got her own spin on survivals, and dagath had funny debuff keys to run during an exterminate, the incredible mode that we get for dante is... disruption but demolishers are impossible to fullstrip with procs and don't do the annoying red pulse.
2. there are more eximus types than there are base elements. I agree it would be cool in principle, but it would be such a niche mechanic that noone's going to bother implementing that, and if you don't make it niche, you'll end up being able to charge it just by using vauban to vortex them in as soon as their OG is broken.

[Siic07]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Actual 360, as in things behind you will die if they are in LoS in the same fashion as if you were looking in that direction. I made sure to test it today since after the nerf I thought "why not just make it a cone if it is going to be LoS restricted" so never really gave it a try. But since it is easy to spot if something is hit behind you after you've primed them (since they'll be dead if a hit lands) I decided to test. And it works because I lit up a room behind me and one infront of me and everything died to tragedy. So it follows the same rules behind you as it does infront of you. Aslong as atleast some part of the enemy sticks out it will get hit.

I've had no problems in Labs, did it all this monday with Dante and zero issues when it came to killing, no matter if indoors or outdoors. I havent ran into LoS issues on any map so far. Teleport on Kullervo however, yes, massive issues with doorways etc. Maybe it is working as intended though to thematically mimic a drunk fin?

Well that is a valid explaination. And I wouldnt say Dante wasnt meta, he just didnt have time to be crowned meta. He will likely end up being meta, even with the nerfs. He still deals some of the highest and most reliable damage in the game and has some insane sync with helminth while also providing one of if not the best defense in the game. Not only due to it being OG but because every single player he buffs can maintain it without his interaction for long periods of time. He also comes with very high base stats on his skills, with insane range and duration. 

I dont even run a particularly heavy strength build on him. I'm running a fairly mixed setup with maxed efficiency, good duration and some range, but enough strength choices in the build to grant a 55k OG that regs a little over 300 per sec, it also lasts 75 seconds. This also still gives me high multipliers for damage and status. He is very forgiving to build strong.

And at which point should we start dismissing those people? The person in question has made an equally false observation and claim in earlier parts of the patching post- Dante Unbound. So how accurate can their feedback be regarding other things at that point? Those people are likely just complaining for the sake of complaing and dont actually notice how things work. I mean, ffs, the skill in question has worked like that since fortuna, which is several years ago, yet somehow that someone has used it on several frames assumingly since they specifically point out they wont use it in the future aside from on two frames due to the new change. Changes that made it alot better, since under the old LoS small pieces of rubble could stop it, even angles such as those that now work according to the same video would stop it since you didnt have physical LoS between frame and enemy. This change has likely also solved elevation issues, though I havent bothered to test that yet with the specific skill.

FoV should not impact your Tragedy since it is a 360 hit. If it was just hitting in the direction you actually look and based on what is rendered in your FoV (not the frames) it would be understandable since a wider field would see/hit more. But this is already hitting 360 degrees around you, so what you see doesnt matter. If people have problems with it they should report it as detailed as possible.

edit: Also what do you refer to with "enclosed maps". Would be good to know so I can test it aswell there unless I already have.

Because content creators are so well known as solid pillars of how to utilize a frame properly or not? It's not like they get big views on let us call it "chum" and "soap" in order to keep it clean, friendly and respectul.

but that's what I'm talking about, not even the creators are putting Dante in Tier S anymore because of LOS, so it's going to continue the same meta of Octavia and Saryn that has lasted for years

But DE talks as if Dante is still one of the strongest and in the meta with LOS which is a lie.

[Nero.DMC]

21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Actual 360, as in things behind you will die if they are in LoS in the same fashion as if you were looking in that direction. I made sure to test it today since after the nerf I thought "why not just make it a cone if it is going to be LoS restricted" so never really gave it a try. But since it is easy to spot if something is hit behind you after you've primed them (since they'll be dead if a hit lands) I decided to test. And it works because I lit up a room behind me and one infront of me and everything died to tragedy. So it follows the same rules behind you as it does infront of you. Aslong as atleast some part of the enemy sticks out it will get hit.

no you are sadly not correct, current LoS implementation was explained by [DE] Pablo, Everything being rendered will be targeted, this means that if you have lower FoV it will impact how many enemies you hit, lower FoV means less enemies are being rendered, this ofc is not the whole LoS implementation, but its important as to why the enemies being in your camera are easier to target than the ones that are not, so what about the enemies not being rendered? well those enemies trace 3 lines from their head torso and foot to your frame, if those 3 lines are obscured by something then the enemy is considered NOT to be in your FoV, but if you had your camera turned around then some of them WOULD be on your FoV.

Spoiler

If the blue oval is an enemy and the red rectangles are obstacles, as long as your camera is pointing toward this particular enemy you are going to hit him, if this particular enemy is in your back then he wont get targeted because the 3 lines they are tracing are all obscured, just one of those lines needs to make it to conside the enemy as visible but this still leave you with a implementation of LoS that targets enemy differently depending if they are in the front or in your back, furthermore its alwasy better to have the enemies on your screen so FoV does impact how many enemies you hit.
i will add that this implementation kinda deceives the player into thinking they are hitting more things than they actually are hitting because enemies in the screen are being hit fine, but the ones in your back are not.

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Well that is a valid explaination. And I wouldnt say Dante wasnt meta, he just didnt have time to be crowned meta. He will likely end up being meta, even with the nerfs. He still deals some of the highest and most reliable damage in the game and has some insane sync with helminth while also providing one of if not the best defense in the game. Not only due to it being OG but because every single player he buffs can maintain it without his interaction for long periods of time. He also comes with very high base stats on his skills, with insane range and duration. 

I dont even run a particularly heavy strength build on him. I'm running a fairly mixed setup with maxed efficiency, good duration and some range, but enough strength choices in the build to grant a 55k OG that regs a little over 300 per sec, it also lasts 75 seconds. This also still gives me high multipliers for damage and status. He is very forgiving to build strong.

There is an argument for that, if he was going to be meta he is probably going to be meta now too because the changes to LoS are not reducing its power it just make him more annoying to play, no longer being able to mark and detonate enemies is more annoying than good at reducing his power (but it does reduce his power just not by that much) wich is why i say i dont really care about his performance i care that LoS make him less fun to play.

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And at which point should we start dismissing those people? The person in question has made an equally false observation and claim in earlier parts of the patching post- Dante Unbound. So how accurate can their feedback be regarding other things at that point? Those people are likely just complaining for the sake of complaing and dont actually notice how things work. I mean, ffs, the skill in question has worked like that since fortuna, which is several years ago, yet somehow that someone has used it on several frames assumingly since they specifically point out they wont use it in the future aside from on two frames due to the new change. Changes that made it alot better, since under the old LoS small pieces of rubble could stop it, even angles such as those that now work according to the same video would stop it since you didnt have physical LoS between frame and enemy. This change has likely also solved elevation issues, though I havent bothered to test that yet with the specific skill.

Sadly never, people that constantly say incorrect stuff should be taken with skepticism but still you should listen and decide what they said based on what they said, not based on who they are.

if someone that lies a lot say something worthwhile you should not stop agreing with the correct thing they said nor dismiss everything they say as incorrect based on other comments.

So its perfectly fine to respond with skepticism, just not instantly dismiss everything based on mistakes they made

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FoV should not impact your Tragedy since it is a 360 hit. If it was just hitting in the direction you actually look and based on what is rendered in your FoV (not the frames) it would be understandable since a wider field would see/hit more. But this is already hitting 360 degrees around you, so what you see doesnt matter. If people have problems with it they should report it as detailed as possible.

edit: Also what do you refer to with "enclosed maps". Would be good to know so I can test it aswell there unless I already have.

It does, i tried my best explaining exactly why.

I mispoke when i said enclosed maps i wanted to say enclosed tiles, like those tiny spaces on corrupted ships or those small caves, they are present everywhere but most recent maps usually avoid that kind of stuff, but pick any of the old misions and chances are you will find a few.

 

[supersauceiro]

There's so much focus on Dante people are missing the bigger picture here.  Did you not see they nerfed a bunch of other frames too, in the same manner?

LOS in a game with random map generation where you have tight corridors, turns, all kinds of crazy geometry like pipes, vents, tree branches, etc is not fun.  Period, end of story.  Maybe occasionally you get a tileset/map type where that is lessened but overall, it's just a horrible idea with how the game is designed and how the rewards are set presently.

Folks saying it's fine, frames are too powerful, etc... you must not be high MR.  I'm not even that high (presently 24) and it's extremely tedious to do certain tasks.  Just wait until you have to farm Grendel, or your last Tenet or Kuva weapon or something.  These changes will make that even more laborious.

It would be one thing if they said "hey, we're changing our check from radial to LOS because we're planning on changing the game design in such a way that complements that, and the rewards as well" but as far as I've seen, they haven't done that, and they introduced these changes in a minor version increment, not a major patch or update.

It seems like from their verbiage on these changes that they intend to do this to all frames, and are just starting with the ones they posted.

I think if this change doesn't get reverted or we don't get some additional information on why this was done I'll probably finish out my current goals and call it quits.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

8 minutes ago, NhChef said:

Played after the most recent update and yes I agree that the conversation must stay open as things are really not ok.

Dante LOS changes must go, it is not just very underwhelming now, the interaction with enemies on the field it's so inconsistent that baffles me how after so many years of expertise a group of devs decided that was ok to implement such broken mechanic and then keep doubling down on it against all the community feedback.

I mean, in my experiences since the most recent hotfix Dante has been performing quite well. He generates tons of overguard and deals enough damage that they had to cap him at 1 billion to prevent errors. There are plenty of strong abilities that are LOS restricted, and rather than leaving him with a broken LOS check they've improved it across the board. What tests have you been doing that resulted in the underwhelming results? Any particular tilesets you're struggling with?

18 minutes ago, NhChef said:

Also after testing the other abilities with LOS that supposedly should have been improved, I suggest you just scrap LOS from the game, especially for abilities that radiates around from self. I believe it really goes against a lot of core designs of the game both environmental (Tilesets) and play style wise.

Just because the community is complaining they can't kill things that they can't see anymore doesn't mean DE has to listen. But again, what tests did you perform? I tried out a couple of my builds with the improved LOS checks and they were MUCH better than they were prior to the patch. What tests did you do? What did you notice that wasn't working? If you want I'd be happy to add to whatever bug report you're working on to get this addressed and fixed if something is broken.

The community always wants stronger abilities and weapons, but sometimes those are entirely bad for the game. Remember how Mirage could lock down whole tilesets before her changes? Or how the AOE Wukong meta absolutely trivialized and dominated the game? Or the AFK Banshee strats? Even Octavia and Mesa have LOS restrictions, and no one is saying they're ruined or terrible.

If DE agreed with you and removed LOS restrictions, we'd have Mesas that could nuke entire tilesets and you wouldn't have anything to do but stand around if you had an Octavia on your team. Balances on Warframe power can be a painful subject, because we all enjoy our power fantasy, but if they gave us everything we wanted and then some, if they trivialized the game for us and took away all the (what little there is) balance, we might as well play Cookie Clicker for all the effort and engagement that the game would require.

27 minutes ago, NhChef said:

The CC changes were really uncalled for, although I agree that bypassing eximus status immunity should be reserved to a very selected few abilities, it did seemed to work with what we had before, it didn't seemed broken hence why fix it. Maybe reducing such roster of abilities of a bit would have been a more conscious choice.

The CC changes were to address abilities affecting overguard enemies that weren't supposed to, they were entirely called for. DE said overguard was supposed to make enemies CC-immune until you strip the overguard. It's good that they're finally getting around to closing those last few loopholes that should have been closed when they first implemented overguard CC immunity.

But this goes back to my prior point, right? You want more power, more strength, more fuel for the power fantasy and less balance and challenges, and that's not always going to line up with DE's vision for the game. You want more buffs, you want CC abilities to affect enemies that supposed to be CC immune, you want LOS restrictions removed entirely because you'll always want more power. I think a conversation can be had about the place CC is in right now, but DE applying rules they set out back when overguard was first implemented is not a bad thing.

I do agree they need to have a look at how overguard, shields, and various conditions are now interacting, since overguard adds another layer in the possible interactions tree, but I think that taking it slow is the right approach.

39 minutes ago, NhChef said:

Now, the Deep Archemidea mode also need to be addressed, cause it is flawed beyond reason and the only reason why people don't talk more about it is because all the other negative things that came along with it. 

Honestly, imo Deep Archimedea is awesome, aside from the RNG loadouts. Once you unlock the Elite version, you can make do with the best weapons of your given selection and then pick a frame or weapon that will trivialize the content. Even if you get stuck with a Secura Penta, a Stug, and a Kestrel you can still just skip the final Vosfor reward and bring Saryn, or Octavia, or Mesa or Revenant and waltz through it no problem.

I completely agree that not being able to take an empty loadout slot sucks, and I hope they implement that in an upcoming patch so you're not entirely screwed if you don't have at least one weapon in a category, though.

[Nero.DMC]

3 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I mean, in my experiences since the most recent hotfix Dante has been performing quite well. He generates tons of overguard and deals enough damage that they had to cap him at 1 billion to prevent errors. There are plenty of strong abilities that are LOS restricted, and rather than leaving him with a broken LOS check they've improved it across the board. What tests have you been doing that resulted in the underwhelming results? Any particular tilesets you're struggling with?

Just because the community is complaining they can't kill things that they can't see anymore doesn't mean DE has to listen. But again, what tests did you perform? I tried out a couple of my builds with the improved LOS checks and they were MUCH better than they were prior to the patch. What tests did you do? What did you notice that wasn't working? If you want I'd be happy to add to whatever bug report you're working on to get this addressed and fixed if something is broken.

The community always wants stronger abilities and weapons, but sometimes those are entirely bad for the game. Remember how Mirage could lock down whole tilesets before her changes? Or how the AOE Wukong meta absolutely trivialized and dominated the game? Or the AFK Banshee strats? Even Octavia and Mesa have LOS restrictions, and no one is saying they're ruined or terrible.

If DE agreed with you and removed LOS restrictions, we'd have Mesas that could nuke entire tilesets and you wouldn't have anything to do but stand around if you had an Octavia on your team. Balances on Warframe power can be a painful subject, because we all enjoy our power fantasy, but if they gave us everything we wanted and then some, if they trivialized the game for us and took away all the (what little there is) balance, we might as well play Cookie Clicker for all the effort and engagement that the game would require.

The CC changes were to address abilities affecting overguard enemies that weren't supposed to, they were entirely called for. DE said overguard was supposed to make enemies CC-immune until you strip the overguard. It's good that they're finally getting around to closing those last few loopholes that should have been closed when they first implemented overguard CC immunity.

But this goes back to my prior point, right? You want more power, more strength, more fuel for the power fantasy and less balance and challenges, and that's not always going to line up with DE's vision for the game. You want more buffs, you want CC abilities to affect enemies that supposed to be CC immune, you want LOS restrictions removed entirely because you'll always want more power. I think a conversation can be had about the place CC is in right now, but DE applying rules they set out back when overguard was first implemented is not a bad thing.

I do agree they need to have a look at how overguard, shields, and various conditions are now interacting, since overguard adds another layer in the possible interactions tree, but I think that taking it slow is the right approach.

Honestly, imo Deep Archimedea is awesome, aside from the RNG loadouts. Once you unlock the Elite version, you can make do with the best weapons of your given selection and then pick a frame or weapon that will trivialize the content. Even if you get stuck with a Secura Penta, a Stug, and a Kestrel you can still just skip the final Vosfor reward and bring Saryn, or Octavia, or Mesa or Revenant and waltz through it no problem.

I completely agree that not being able to take an empty loadout slot sucks, and I hope they implement that in an upcoming patch so you're not entirely screwed if you don't have at least one weapon in a category, though.

Ppl need to get this: we are not complaining about performance, we do not like the removal of QoL without any good reason, the ability was NOT going to kill enemies that were not previosuly marked so it was pretty much irrelevant since Dark Verse always had LoS check, the problem with the current implementation is you cant mark and move, you are forced to spam and detonate instead of mark move mark detonate wich is much more enjoyable.
the only thing Dante was killing without Marking and LoS were really low enemies and there are so many frames that can do this is not even funny if that is the reason to remove QoL, literally they would need to butcher so many frames to not let them kill low enemies without seeing them

 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

3 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Ppl need to get this: we are not complaining about performance

You're pretty clearly complaining about performance, you're just trying to spin it as QOL. Trying to say it's about QOL only when removing the LOS restrictions would greatly buff nuke capabilities is absurd.

Would Mesa be more QOL if she could shoot through walls? Sure! You wouldn't have to move at all to get that delightful BRRRRRRRRRT and all those big numbers flashing. But you can't tell me that wouldn't also improve her performance.

Dante having a massive nuke without restriction was very, very strong, on top of him being one of the strongest support frames in the game. Now, after the changes, he's still a strong support, and he still has a strong nuke, it just requires actually seeing what you're killing. He's fine.

[Nero.DMC]

3 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You're pretty clearly complaining about performance, you're just trying to spin it as QOL. Trying to say it's about QOL only when removing the LOS restrictions would greatly buff nuke capabilities is absurd.

Would Mesa be more QOL if she could shoot through walls? Sure! You wouldn't have to move at all to get that delightful BRRRRRRRRRT and all those big numbers flashing. But you can't tell me that wouldn't also improve her performance.

Dante having a massive nuke without restriction was very, very strong, on top of him being one of the strongest support frames in the game. Now, after the changes, he's still a strong support, and he still has a strong nuke, it just requires actually seeing what you're killing. He's fine.

The ability does nothing if you dont mark the enemy, if they removed the base damage and LoS i would be perfectly fine, we already need to mark the enemies we want to kill, hitting unmarked enemies for 300 damage is irrelevant to me. It is about QoL it has never been about performance. (even tho performance was slighly hit depending the tile you are on but who cares)

It was never unrestricted, in order to nuke anything you needed to apply dark verse first that already have LoS check

Edited April 11 by Nero.DMC

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

13 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

(even tho performance was slighly hit depending the tile you are on but who cares)

Was it really so hard to admit this?

It was about him being able to mark everything and then nuke an entire tile, regardless of whether he could see them anymore. He's fine as he is now.

[Nero.DMC]

2 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Was it really so hard to admit this?

It was about him being able to mark everything and then nuke an entire tile, regardless of whether he could see them anymore. He's fine as he is now.

WOW, literally disregarded everything i said to pick the line and answer specifically to that line, DUDE its not about performance, i dont care, if they leave it only marked that is fine, its annoying to mark and not be able to use a detonator ability based on the enemy  or me moving, or the tile being small and enemies i marked 2 seconds ago are no longer in my LoS b/c LoS feels like crap, if they want to reduce the range or strenght or whatever thats fine by me i dont want to play with the annoying mechanic.

[FabiTheSnake]

I think the LOS is definitely better now, it´s a bit weird though still, having the LOS go from your Camera instead of the Warframe´s perspective may be more pleasent.

The nezha buff still sucks. You really overstepped the line and took fun away, which isn´t your thing and you should have seen that. I tried and MISSED my 4 with 200% range running towards the enemy. 
A better way of nerfing it IMO would be to have the Status transfer on kill, or with a Delay with a secondary range, for example 20M Spears, the Spread range is about 8 Meters. 
The damage doesn´t matter, i build it on 10% Strength and oneshot SP heavys. 

and with status and CC, please make it work on Bosses propperly. I hate to see my condition overload being pretty much useless. 
It´s fine to have Status clears and timed immunity, reduced durations and effectiveness, but just straight blocking a gameplay mechanic is so disapointing for me. 

 

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Dante is really, really, really good.

Don't forget to use a companion with synergy. I tend to run helios for a combo of strip and health orb generation so I never run out of energy. If you need a neat weapon to work with, run archon continuity + a toxin noctua + hornet strike for base damage that multiplies with ability strength. Add on pageflight's status buffs. The end result will be partial armor strip from continuity's corrosive procs, huge toxin procs, and huge slash procs. Tragedy will obliterate any hard targets that've taken a few shots from Noctua, if it isn't straight up killing them already. The toxin procs also makes Noctua strong vs shields.

If you can't make it work, try again. Look at how it feels weak and adjust your build. I'm using a zarr for only acolyte hunting, Ruvox, and Onos, so it's not like my guns are doing the general work. The frame is doing it all.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

10 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

WOW, literally disregarded everything i said to pick the line and answer specifically to that line

Because that was the only thing you said that mattered: Admitting it affects performance. I'm sure it feels very QOL and comfortable to hit one key and kill all the enemies on a tile with a billion damage (as an example, not specifically talking about Dante here), but the QOL isn't the issue. The issue is the performance, and Dante being able to mark all the enemies and then nuke an entire tile regardless if he could still see them.

As it stands, he's fine now.

Edited April 11 by Armadillidium_vulgare
Clarification

[Nero.DMC]

1 minute ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Because that was the only thing you said that mattered: Admitting it affects performance. I'm sure it feels very QOL and comfortable to hit one key and kill all the enemies on a tile with a billion damage, but the QOL isn't the issue here. The issue is the performance, and Dante being about to mark all the enemies and then nuke an entire tile.

So you think that enemies marked by an ability with LoS should not get targeted by a detonator ability? you think that's not an annoying design? LOL, i have spoken to many people about LoS over theese few days, you won the price for the worst take, congrats!

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

Just now, Nero.DMC said:

So you think that enemies marked by an ability with LoS should not get targeted by a detonator ability? 

Do you think Mesa should be able to shoot through walls? Should Octavia have her LOS checks removed?

3 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

you think that's not an annoying design?

It doesn't matter whether it's annoying or not, what matters and why it got changed was how it performed.

4 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

LOL, i have spoken to many people about LoS over theese few days, you won the price for the worst take, congrats!

Cool sidestepping the issue and all, but being toxic isn't going to convince anyone to revert the LOS changes bud

[Siic07]

6 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Because that was the only thing you said that mattered: Admitting it affects performance. I'm sure it feels very QOL and comfortable to hit one key and kill all the enemies on a tile with a billion damage (as an example, not specifically talking about Dante here), but the QOL isn't the issue. The issue is the performance, and Dante being able to mark all the enemies and then nuke an entire tile regardless if he could still see them.

As it stands, he's fine now.

Your words would be correct if there were no other warframes that do exactly what you talked about years ago in the game and they didn't nerf and now a new warframe in a week they nerfed

 

[FaraTenno]

19 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Dante having a massive nuke without restriction was very, very strong

You, like many others, are missing the point behind the ability's original design.
Let's ignore the fact that Tragedy was basically a wet fart on high level enemies if you didn't hit them with Dark Verse first, because that is apparently not a restriction. (Even though it very well is.)
Tragedy's biggest "restriction" was the fact that you needed to cast Dark Verse twice, spending 25 energy each at base, to even be ALLOWED to cast Tragedy, an ability that costs 50 energy on it's own.
This is not only a 100 energy requirement, which I will grant matches up to most frames ultimate costs, but the real limit here is the fact that the animation for Dark Verse has to cycle twice between each "nuke." (Which, at truly high levels, is not really a "nuke" compared to what we have on other frames.)
This creates a required buffer time between each cast of Tragedy, which also has a decent amount of startup to it's own cast. There is no other "nuke" option in the game with conditions like this. The closest you'll find is a hard cooldown.
I can tell you for a fact this was a restriction, because I had gone so far as to use a tauforged amber shard to boost my casting speed to get the setup of Light/Dark verse combos finished quicker.

Now that Tragedy is less consistently hitting opponents that have been hit by the two casts of Dark Verse that you require to cast Tragedy the synergy is less effective.
The problem gets even worse when you consider that you are now wasting energy when hitting enemies with Dark Verse that do not get touched by Tragedy if you happen to be in the wrong position. I don't care if DX11/max FoV players aren't having problems, the fact that some of us are is the real issue here.

Now let's take Mesa's Peacemaker that you wanted to look at for example. What is their restriction? 
Ah, yes, the shrinking LoS reticle that everyone has been throwing in my face since Dante got nerfed. True, that is a restriction, but it is one that can easily be ignored by simply recasting the ability. 
...How much Energy does Peacemakers drain on cast again? 25? Hm. That's funny.
You're able to cast Peacemaker twice for the cost of two Dark Verses... which is before Tragedy even gets out once.
Should we not nerf that, too? Imagine if Peacemaker's reticle didn't immediately reset when you deactivate the ability. Maybe it should gradually grow back off screen over a set period of time, so that the ability has a proper restriction.

The answer is no, we don't do that, because being able to recast Peacemaker and immediately get the reticle back is what makes Mesa fun.
But, I as a meager pub squad loki enjoyer (extreme example), can complain that she is not only a dominant playstyle by how frequently I see her, but that she is also disrupting my experience by killing everything before I can even look at it! So get rid of it! Grrrr! 

This is why I play the game solo. They've given us the tools to make us all one man room clearing monsters, but still want to pretend we aren't going to step on each other's feet when there's four of us trying to wipe out the same room.
This game will never be balanced. Stop pretending it can be.

 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

4 minutes ago, Siic07 said:

Your words would be correct if there were no other warframes that do exactly what you talked about years ago in the game and they didn't nerf and now a new warframe in a week they nerfed

There have been plenty of other nukes that have been nerfed over the years. Remember old Banshee? Mirage's blind? Nuke Trinity? The AOE meta? Regardless, we're not talking about those other frames, friend. We're talking about Dante, who, in his current state, is fine.

 

Edited April 11 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[MrSigy]

 

Quote

 

Line Of Sight (Los) Improvements 

As announced last week, we have revisited LoS checks on other Warframes to bring them in line with the new and improved version of Dante’s LoS added in Hotfix 35.5.4. 

To reiterate, there are now two variations of LoS checking: 

1. The first type of check sees if any part of the enemy has been drawn on the screen, so that any part of an enemy, big or small, is considered visible/eligible to pass the LoS check.
2. The second type of check is for enemies that are not on screen. We now check for LoS to the enemy's head, torso, and feet instead of only to their body which will increase reliability there as well.

For Abilities that hit enemies in a full circle around you, both checks are used: Once to evaluate enemies that you can see and then a second sweep to check targets to the sides and behind you that aren't visible.
 

The following Warframe abilities have received the aforementioned improvements: 

• Excalibur’s Radial Blind (Rendered Check)
• Excalibur Umbra’s Radial Howl (Rendered Check)
• Dante’s Dark Verse (Rendered Check)
• Helminth’s Sickening Pulse (Rendered Check)
• Hildryn’s Pillage (Rendered Check)
• Mag’s Pull (Rendered Check)
• Nova’s Null Star Augment (Rendered Check)
• Hildryn’s Aegis Storm (Raycast Check from floor where Hildryn is hovering)
• Khora’s Whipclaw (Raycast Checks from multiple points around the whip's impact)
• Qorvex’s Chyrinka Pillar (Raycast Checks from top and center of pillar)

The above changes also tangentially fixes the issue of low FOV preventing LoS checks from occurring (this was most reported for Dante’s Dark Verse, Hildryn’s Pillage, Khora’s Whipclaw, Mirage’s Prism, and Mag’s Pull). 

 

I don't know how long it has been but finally maybe we got a fix?

[Nero.DMC]

7 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Do you think Mesa should be able to shoot through walls? Should Octavia have her LOS checks removed?

It doesn't matter whether it's annoying or not, what matters and why it got changed was how it performed.

Cool sidestepping the issue and all, but being toxic isn't going to convince anyone to revert the LOS changes bud

All that matters is annoying... games are suposed to be fun, and everything including balance serve that purpose... adding annoying mechanics that do not even balance Dante is not fun for anyone, he is as strong as he always was in open spaces, he is just annoying to play in small spaces, he is less fun to play for no reason, if they consider Dante needs balance, then balance him, change his number to whatever they think is balanced and remove the annoying mechanic.

Realism or justification does not matter, if you are making the game worse, games that are less fun are worse games.

[tartcactus]

Anything to do with Loss of Sight in this game is bad. Anything short of a complete revert of the travesty visited upon Dante is unacceptable. I did not pay platinum for him just so he could be turned into another gun platform/melee frame. 

 

Putting Loss of Sight checks on AOE abilities is STUPID!!!