PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[TheTundraTerror]

10 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Move around however, especially in netracells, there seem to be 'invisible blocks' most likely 'cubes' used in prop creation and placement. (Which there is A LOT of in netracells. If your camera is blocked by -some- of these. Dark verse wont hit. Im still in the middle of testing out examples but without a reliable map without enemies where i want them on demand its taking longer then i'd like to post results.

I know this seems very janky, but you can always try the Captura scenes.

45 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

If you can't make it work, try again. Look at how it feels weak and adjust your build. I'm using a zarr for only acolyte hunting, Ruvox, and Onos, so it's not like my guns are doing the general work. The frame is doing it all.

There is no "adjusting your build" for an inherently broken mechanic like LoS.

9 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

In the original LoS writeup it was mentioned that enemies rendering on screen would be considered in line of sight.

I have personally show examples of mobs that are neither in view of Dante nor my camera getting hit with Dark Verse. That said, this makes it so that anyone playing on a lower end system is at an inherent disadvantage.

Edited April 11 by TheTundraTerror

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 minute ago, Nero.DMC said:

All that matters is annoying... games are suposed to be fun, and everything including balance serve that purpose... adding annoying mechanics that do not even balance Dante is not fun for anyone, he is as strong as he always was in open spaces, he is just annoying to play in small spaces, he is less fun to play for no reason, if they consider Dante needs balance, then balance him, change his number to whatever they think is balanced and remove the annoying mechanic.

Realism or justification does not matter, if you are making the game worse, games that are less fun are worse games.

If a support frame makes you immortal while ALSO killing everything else so effectively you have pretty much nothing to do, I'd say that makes the game less fun. Wouldn't you? Sitting around and doing nothing, might as well be afk for all the effort you need to put in. His nuke now requires a little more thinking and effort on the part of his users, I don't think that's the end of the world, and the hysterics really aren't convincing me otherwise.

 

3 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Putting Loss of Sight checks on AOE abilities is STUPID!!!

Should Pillage affect things behind cover? Should Peacemakers shoot through walls?

 

10 minutes ago, FaraTenno said:

*snip*

Like I said, seems like he's fine to me in his current state. Energy consumption as an argument isn't super compelling given how easy it is to gain energy these days, and Peacemakers is one of the most energy-hungry channeled abilities in the game depending on your build. It's not just a one time cost of 25 energy.

[Siaw]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So it follows the same rules behind you as it does infront of you. Aslong as atleast some part of the enemy sticks out it will get hit.

False, it's even been proven by some people already. LoS does NOT work the same on enemies on camera vs enemies off camera

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

FoV should not impact your Tragedy since it is a 360 hit

It does impact it by the aforementioned reason, it's also impacted by your screen resolution, so Switch & Mobile players will always hit less enemies than others lol

[FaraTenno]

2 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Energy consumption as an argument isn't super compelling given how easy it is to gain energy these days, and Peacemakers is one of the most energy-hungry channeled abilities in the game depending on your build. It's not just a one time cost of 25 energy.

You directly contradicted yourself in the same sentence.
If Energy generation isn't an argument, why did you feel the need to correct me on how much energy Peacemaker drains? It doesn't matter since she can get it all back easily anyway. That's your argument for Dante too, right?

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

Just now, FaraTenno said:

You directly contradicted yourself in the same sentence.
If Energy generation isn't an argument, why did you feel the need to correct me on how much energy Peacemaker drains? It doesn't matter since she can get it all back easily anyway. That's your argument for Dante too, right?

Disingenuousness from you is about as convincing as the hysterics and the toxicity from others.

29 minutes ago, FaraTenno said:

...How much Energy does Peacemakers drain on cast again? 25? Hm. That's funny.
You're able to cast Peacemaker twice for the cost of two Dark Verses... which is before Tragedy even gets out once.

You're complaining that Dante's nuke is expensive while pretending Mesa's energy hungry Peacemakers aren't, let alone that she usually wants the damage boost from her Shooting Gallery. Hence I don't find the energy drain argument compelling because there are plenty of expensive nukes that work just fine, and plenty of ways to generate energy.

[LordOfKenpo]

45 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Do you think Mesa should be able to shoot through walls? Should Octavia have her LOS checks removed?

There is a huge difference, Mesa's is a single ability to kill. Dante uses one ability to prime enemies for the other to detonate. The idea is having the detonator miss means both abilities are wasted. The LoS restriction doesn't belong on a detonator when we already need LoS to prime the enemy for it. This makes this less consistent as an ability (and with the fact that it takes 3 casts that's a lot of energy to waste). The issue people are complaining about is that there is no other prime/detonator combo in the game where both are LoS making this the least consistent, especially with how inconsistent LoS is.

[Phoenician]

7 hours ago, Karyst said:

I would simply propose a cooldown on Dante's 4 which then forces a strategic playstyle and not spam. 

No, just no.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 minute ago, LordOfKenpo said:

There is a huge difference, Mesa's is a single ability to kill. Dante uses one ability to prime enemies for the other to detonate. The idea is having the detonator miss means both abilities are wasted. The LoS restriction doesn't belong on a detonator when we already need LoS to prime the enemy for it. This makes this less consistent as an ability (and with the fact that it takes 3 casts that's a lot of energy to waste). The issue people are complaining about is that there is no other prime/detonator combo in the game where both are LoS making this the least consistent, especially with how inconsistent LoS is.

Should a frame be able to do absolutely everything? That is, most frames specialize in some way into a role. There's supports, there's nukes, tanks, so on, so forth. Trinity is a highly dedicated support, for example. Citrine is a support with a more offensive bent. Loki is almost entirely dedicated to CC, with his new augment allowing for some strong damage capability. Most frames have some overlapping across multiple roles, to be fair. Mesa can provide some support, Chroma's damage buffs can be spread to his team, but generally they're not the best across multiple roles (Octavia breaks all the rules).

So, where's Dante sit? Well, he's one of the strongest support frames in the game given how much overguard he's able to put out, to the point it got DE to adjust how Hunter Adrenaline, Rage, and Vex Armor work. He's got an exalted book that can use various tome mods for team buffing. But not only that, but he had a massive AOE nuke that was and is perfectly able to hit hundreds of millions in damage across a large area. Sure, Saryn can do tileset wide damage and armor stripping with her spores and massive damage with her Miasma, but she doesn't have insane support abilities or survivability. Mesa can do a metric ton of damage, but she's limited to LOS ability that gimps her mobility. So on.

Even with the changes, Dante has an extremely strong nuke and support abilities. He's fine now, and he's prompted LOS improvements across the board. That's plenty good enough for me.

[FaraTenno]

5 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You're complaining that Dante's nuke is expensive while pretending Mesa's energy hungry Peacemakers aren't

I was not complaining about anything. There was no point in which I said the energy costs, or the setup required for the original payoff of Tragedy was unjust. You have read my intentions backwards.

I was explaining that Tragedy was in fact not unrestricted as you claimed it was, and that it actually had several aspects keeping it from being abused as Peacemakers and Miasma are.
I'm also not pretending that Peacemakers don't drain energy like turning on a faucet; I was entertaining the laughable thought of energy costs not being a viable method of balancing an ability by using an absurd example.

The point you seemed to completely ignore, which my example was supposed to emphasize, was that Peacemaker would be objectively broken without the base 15 energy drain per second. But many people seem to think that being able to generate energy quickly means energy costs cannot be used for balance. By your own conditions in that case, Peacemaker would be broken because Energy consumption does not play a factor in balance. (Which, we all know energy costs are definitely supposed play a factor, regardless of how easy it is to slap on an energy generation method. Pretending they aren't doesn't mean it's true.)

I would agree that Tragedy was broken if it was a single button cast nuke that didn't require two layers of setup, even if it had double it's current base energy investment.
My point was not that these aspects were unfair, it was that all of those aspects were finely tuned to work together to make the abilities worth using while keeping them in check.
Arbitrarily adding LoS to Tragedy as another restriction after it had been designed to work without it is throwing off the functionality that his kit had before. Yet you and the other defenders want to pretend we're just mad that we aren't getting numbers.
We know the numbers are still there. It's just that sometimes, they don't appear when they should. That is frustrating when it is outside the player's control.
My peacemaker reticle suggestion, again, was not serious. It was a dramatic example as it would be akin to a third restriction on Peacemaker, a restriction it does not need as it is already plenty restricted. It would be redundant, just as LoS is on Tragedy when Dark Verse had it to begin with.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

4 minutes ago, FaraTenno said:

*snip*

In the end, Dante is in a fine state now. His nuke has sufficient restrictions that DE is happy with it and the LOS changes have made a bunch of other abilities better.

Quote

This game will never be balanced. Stop pretending it can be.

Mhmmm.

[LordOfKenpo]

11 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Should a frame be able to do absolutely everything? That is, most frames specialize in some way into a role. There's supports, there's nukes, tanks, so on, so forth. Trinity is a highly dedicated support, for example. Citrine is a support with a more offensive bent. Loki is almost entirely dedicated to CC, with his new augment allowing for some strong damage capability. Most frames have some overlapping across multiple roles, to be fair. Mesa can provide some support, Chroma's damage buffs can be spread to his team, but generally they're not the best across multiple roles (Octavia breaks all the rules).

So, where's Dante sit? Well, he's one of the strongest support frames in the game given how much overguard he's able to put out, to the point it got DE to adjust how Hunter Adrenaline, Rage, and Vex Armor work. He's got an exalted book that can use various tome mods for team buffing. But not only that, but he had a massive AOE nuke that was and is perfectly able to hit hundreds of millions in damage across a large area. Sure, Saryn can do tileset wide damage and armor stripping with her spores and massive damage with her Miasma, but she doesn't have insane support abilities or survivability. Mesa can do a metric ton of damage, but she's limited to LOS ability that gimps her mobility. So on.

Even with the changes, Dante has an extremely strong nuke and support abilities. He's fine now, and he's prompted LOS improvements across the board. That's plenty good enough for me.

This has nothing to do with the argument you quoted so I assume you were responding to someone else or else this is an inconsequent argument (and I mean that as in the propaganda technique)

[Nero.DMC]

14 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

If a support frame makes you immortal while ALSO killing everything else so effectively you have pretty much nothing to do, I'd say that makes the game less fun. Wouldn't you? Sitting around and doing nothing, might as well be afk for all the effort you need to put in. His nuke now requires a little more thinking and effort on the part of his users, I don't think that's the end of the world, and the hysterics really aren't convincing me otherwise.

first thing first, OG is strong at low levels but then its pretty much meh, if we had 500 og limit and the regen we would be as tanky as we are now, the thing that is strong there is the regen tbh. Dante is not a support frame either and you CANT kill everything effectively, i outdps Dante's with a melee (since day 0), its really really disingenous thinking that his ability is able to nuke as strongly as a well modded weapon. it hits hard but its pretty slow, in that time i can do a few tennokais for millions and millions of damage without spending any energy.

that's the thing, LoS changes do not give you any strategic gameplay, it just means you spam it in every enemy group, before you could decide to mark and then detonate or stop at stronger enemies in short you have less things to decide now

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

10 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

This has nothing to do with the argument you quoted so I assume you were responding to someone else or else this is an inconsequent argument (and I mean that as in the propaganda technique)

It has everything to do with the argument I quoted. Take some time, read it again, and give it some thought. Why would I be talking about Warframe roles/specialization in the context of Dante and his changes?

5 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

first thing first, OG is strong at low levels but then its pretty much meh, if we had 500 og limit and the regen we would be as tanky as we are now, the thing that is strong there is the regen tbh.

He's perfectly capable of playing at Steel Path all the way up to level cap, and killing things there besides. OG does tend to fall off, but it provides extra gating and that's all you really need to survive at cap, tedious as it is.

12 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

you CANT kill everything effectively, i outdps Dante's with a melee (since day 0), its really really disingenous thinking that his ability is able to nuke as strongly as a well modded weapon. it hits hard but its pretty slow, in that time i can do a few tennokais for millions and millions of damage without spending any energy.

If we take you at your word, why are you complaining about a loss of functionality in his nuke if it's really not that good to begin with? Seems to me that if you can outdps him with a melee weapon there's no good reason to use his nuke at all, and it being nerfed is fine since it's weak as it is, according to you. Man, I'm glad we solved that! /sarcasm

...Or maybe Warframe's Damage% statistics are flawed, and arguing that his nuke didn't need a LOS restriction because it can be out-damaged by a well-tuned weapon is disingenuous? Given that DE had to implement a billion damage cap due to his damage numbers getting too high?

[Nero.DMC]

7 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

If we take you at your word, why are you complaining about a loss of functionality in his nuke if it's really not that good to begin with? Seems to me that if you can outdps him with a melee weapon there's no good reason to use his nuke at all, and it being nerfed is fine since it's weak as it is, according to you. Man, I'm glad we solved that! /sarcasm

...Or maybe Warframe's Damage% statistics are flawed, and arguing that his nuke didn't need a LOS restriction because it can be out-damaged by a well-tuned weapon is disingenuous? Given that DE had to implement a billion damage cap due to his damage numbers getting too high?

i can but it was FUN... wich is the whole point, i liked being able to mark enemies and move and detonate them, how hard is to understand: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABO
UT PERFORMANCE  I am complaining b/c the removal of QoL makes him much boring to play and as you just said he is just another frame that is a weapon platform because his ability now feels clunky and as you yourself say: HE IS ALMOST AS STRONG AS HE WAS that should give you an idea as to why people are complaining its not about strengh its about gameplay, QoL and fun.

Quote

He's perfectly capable of playing at Steel Path all the way up to level cap, and killing things there besides. OG does tend to fall off, but it provides extra gating and that's all you really need to survive at cap, tedious as it is.

Oh wait you think it would be tedious? but i tought you did not mind about annoying players as long as it was justified right? yah i understand OG is fine i dont care either way if they nerf it more or not give it to allies or whatever they want to do with it.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

2 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

i can but it was FUN... wich is the whole point, i liked being able to mark enemies and move and detonate them, how hard is to understand: I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABO
UT PERFORMANCE  I am complaining b/c the removal of QoL makes him much boring to play and as you just said he is just another frame that is a weapon platform because his ability now feels clunky and as you yourself say: HE IS ALMOST AS STRONG AS HE WAS that should give you an idea as to why people are complaining its not about strengh its about gameplay, QoL and fun.

You're complaining about a QOL that had an impact on performance, so you're complaining about performance regardless of the window dressing.

2 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Oh wait you think it would be tedious?

Yeah, levelcap is tedious. Shieldgating micromanagement bores me, and doing it for no reward improvement is just a waste of time imo. Sure, it's neat to say, "Yeah, I've done level cap, got them bragging rights bro," but honestly it's for sweatier gamers than I. At least with Circuit they've made getting there faster, but eh.

[LordOfKenpo]

24 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

It has everything to do with the argument I quoted. Take some time, read it again, and give it some thought. Why would I be talking about Warframe roles/specialization in the context of Dante and his changes?

My argument was specifically around the interactions between his dark verse and tragedy and how those compare to other prime and detonate type abilities. It had nothing to do with role or overguard at all simply why that interaction makes it less consistent than other similar interactions.

[Karyst]

Just wait when they find out about other nukes that don't have Los yet.

[Nero.DMC]

40 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You're complaining about a QOL that had an impact on performance, so you're complaining about performance regardless of the window dressing.

a very minor impact on performance, i would rather have the QoL back and receive a real impact on performance because its not about how strong the frame is its about how fun it is... i dont know how to make you understand that most of us would rather have the ability do less or have less range and still have the old more fun version than have this less fun version... the complaint is not about performance is about they decided to nerf performance by making the ability annoying and on top of that the performance change is so minor is not that relevant (and leaves me worried that they will also eventually make it perform worse because what they did is not a good way of balancing anything, conditional annoyance is not balancing an ability), if they needed to nerf performance then NERF THE EFFING PERFORMANCE and keep the ability fun to play.

Edited April 11 by Nero.DMC

[OneOmniverse]

On 2024-04-10 at 8:10 PM, Galexivity said:

I believe I speak for the majority when the main issue with Dante when it comes to Tragedy is the LoS. While we appreciate the fixes that you are doing, you need to see that the best fix for Dante's tragedy is to revert the LoS changes on it and make it a circle again. Reduce the range of it if that's the problem. Don't make it one-shot level 26 enemies if that's the problem. But once again, you're missing the mark just by a tad. Please just get rid of LoS for Dante's Tragedy. There are so many reasons and possible solutions that members have asked for who play your game for hours on end. We love you DE, but we really want you to listen. ;n;

Pretty much even now they don’t listen to the main issue and insist on bandaid fixes 

 

15 hours ago, Karyst said:

Just wait when they find out about other nukes that don't have Los yet.

Yup 

[Karyst]

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

a very minor impact on performance, i would rather have the QoL back and receive a real impact on performance because its not about how strong the frame is its about how fun it is... i dont know how to make you understand that most of us would rather have the ability do less or have less range and still have the old more fun version than have this less fun version... the complaint is not about performance is about they decided to nerf performance by making the ability annoying and on top of that the performance chance is so minor is not that relevant, if they needed to nerf performance then NERF THE EFFING PERFORMANCE and keep the ability fun to play.

I agree, but also, when we have abilities that go out in circle around the character, such as tragedy and now fire blast on ember, what sense does it make that it doesn't hit the enemies you do not see, yet the ability goes through? That is the fun part we are talking about regardless of the damage aspect of it. Furthermore, once the Los is added to the nuke frames, simple grouping ability such as larva and ensnare will be used to circumvent the Los obstacle and still nuke. Los doesn't solve the presumed issue, it only creates a challenge that is easily circumvented and we move on. The whole point of this Dante nerf is and always was that he was released, we used him pre-nerf and then it was nerf. I personally always move on after the nerf, adapt, but surely, whoever played Dante pre-nerf, will not forget how he was the first time around. The whole idea of nerfing this and nerfing that has no end to it, because the moment you nerf one the other will be used until you nerf the most and then the ones that were once considered weak are now strong and the cycle continues. Last week it was Dante, today is Sevagoth and next week, who knows?

The Los thing on abilities sounds like this example: I get an angstrum with negative projectile speed, shoot it at the group of enemies in one direction, then before the rockets hit, I look away so that I do not see those enemies. So according the ability Los, my rockets deal no damage. Is that the logic we are using?

By this logic, an arson eximus unit that casts very same fire blast that ember has Los on, shouldn't hit me when I stand behind him, yet he does. 

[peq42]

PLEASE buff inaros' 4 to also scale with strength and/or spread indefinitely like saryn's 2

[VoyrenTV]

Dante doesn't need LoS improvements.
LoS needs to go.

Doesn't matter what you think has improved, it still breaks the frame and the very idea behind it.
Take away range, reduce the dmg a bit - But get rid of the LoS.

How many more people does it need to tell you?

DE and Funcom, seriously, must be the same people.
Don't play their own game -> Worsen the game with bad decision making -> Ignore Feedback -> Celebrate themselves 24/7 

 

21 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

snip

 

This is the reason why we have misery like the current.
The reason we keep having misery like that.

People obviously never playing past a sortie, telling others it's (the Topic) in good shape now - Having no actual idea how poorly it performs.
DE, in return, picks this statement as 'feedback' and get's back to celebrating themselves over a job well done. 

De Facto - Stuff breaks 'gets broken' and intentionally stays like that for that the Tank-Frame-Meta can be further enforced.
Makes me sad.

Edited April 11 by VoyrenTV

[captn_Pat]

Line of sight on tragedy still feels off, no matter how much you tinker with it, often it is simply more viable to just use a gun and that just feels bad. When you have a bunch of mobs in front of you, they die, woopdidoo but more often than not it just misses mobs completely and is a waste of energy. The rest of his kit is very nice and makes him overall a very viable choice but the core fantasy of beeing a mage is not there, he is more a team and weapon buffer.

Now look at Saryn, her  1 has no line of sight when it spreads, her 4 also has no line of sight and goes through walls, meanwhile our wizard boy has line of sight on his 3 and 4 now (just small adjustments, right?), now tell me, what feels more intuitive and caster style to you?

 

GET RID OF LINE OF SIGHT OF TRAGEDY ALREADY, IT FEELS BAAAAD!!!!!!!!1111elf

Edited April 11 by captn_Pat

[OnestarMike]

3 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

In the end, Dante is in a fine state now. His nuke has sufficient restrictions that DE is happy with it and the LOS changes have made a bunch of other abilities better.

Mhmmm.

I love how people here just guzzle up mediocrity like it's healthy for the game.

[tartcactus]

I see the corporate white knights are still busily declaring Mission Accomplished on our behalf. Nuke a new frame into the ground and then claim he has built back better because they pretend they have made fixes to his ashes. And, in fact, they have not. LoS still means Loss of Sight,, in my book. The Dev Snort this week clearly demonstrated their intent to ignore chat that went counter to their narrative and only read the ones from their white knights. I have zero confidence in DE now. Period.