OnestarMike

The problem is that we were already at near perfect and went backwards. Handwaving it as “that’s just how games are” ignores that we already were there, and are now not. If Dante was released with LoS and people were fine with it, then it probably would have never been an issue because we would have never known. But we do know, because it was a thing, and now it’s not. And the solution is a quick and easy fix. The issues people have stated with tragedy are problems outside of the character itself and would have been solved with minor tweaks to other mechanics such as base damage. Since DE’s current statement was about the range, a range reduction would have been sufficient. There is 0 point at the moment in using mods for range because if you want to kill something with tragedy, you have to be within 5-15m and not be moving a bunch in order for it to consistently work. The movement alone makes an argument for dumping it entirely and just maxing strength for a noctua build (a build that is actually way stronger than pre-nerf tragedy). I disagree on the skill aspect. It took more skill to move quickly between rooms to tag enemies and then pull off the satisfying explosion. Sure tragedy on star chart is just 334 spam, (which would have been solved with a base damage nerf because that wasn’t the important part of the ability anyway) but in steel path it was far more fluid and fun to play when I could tag multiple rooms if I moved around fast enough and then finish them with tragedy, which I cannot do now. If you disagree with that then I guess we just have fundamental different experiences with the game and how it’s enjoyed which I can’t bridge the gap on. Suppose it doesn’t matter. Since there hasn’t been a response about this despite the feedback across their medias, I don’t matter and have moved on at this point. I wish you well in the game, but settling for this is a bad direction for the future of Warframe, and I don’t want to be a part of that.

I don’t understand why we would settle for mediocrity when the initial release was near perfect. Yea he’s okay, but why are we okay with that?

Oh don’t worry I’ve been discouraged for both lol.

Slow casting speed has not been an issue. Slap on 2 yellow shards and it feels nice. I still think saying LoS is a little janky is underselling it. It's better but "consistently inconsistent" doesn't bode well for a good player experience. Dante's debacle only highlighted how bad LoS in general is. LoS wasn't a major issue before because honestly it doesn't impact other frames as much as something like dante's tragedy. It's good that they're working on it now, but it still doesn't change the fact that LoS on tragedy will never feel good, even if it's perfect. I think this person's post sums up the general experience that I'm trying to convey For a TLDR: The nature of warframe as a game currently rewards preparation for big payoffs. Most warframes operate like this. Dante's tragedy is meant to be the finisher to this preparation. And if all your setup ends up failing because a lamp got in the way, it creates a pretty severe negative experience, no matter how frequent it happens. And the problem is that with LoS, there will always be a time where it happens. DE can never escape this fact.

100%. I wish I could keep enjoying the game like you but I came back to Warframe for Dante’s release and while the frame is technically “fine”, the reasons here have just made it a frustrating experience to the point that I lost my drive to play already. I hope they fix it, or it might end up being a permanent hiatus for me instead of my usual couple month breaks. I love magic, and the fact that this Warframe nailed that feeling so well, and everything about him felt great and not overpowered. To see his current state after just 4 days from release, it’s just disheartening.

This is the core reasoning I’ve said across the forums. I’m convinced people that defend the current state of Dante don’t actually play him and just don’t want him in lobbies for whatever reason. Or it’s just straight malice toward the game itself. No amount of LoS fixes will ever make Dante feel like he’s suppose to. It has to be removed or this frame will fall into obscurity because people will get too frustrated when their combo finisher fails on a regular basis. If tragedy was a one click button with no prior setup and straight damage, there would be a solid reason to keep it on LoS. But that isn’t the case and that’s not how DE designed it to be. It’s a real shame to see what was a perfect frame release punished by issues outside of Dante’s controls, and left this massive thorn in his side

The damage has never been the issue it's the gameplay and how the warframe feels. Many people here have even been willing to dump the base damage on Tragedy just to get LoS removed. Of course Dante performs well in terms of damage output, that's never been the issue. The issue is that it doesn't feel as good as it did on launch because of bad balancing choice. When people here are talking about Dante being bad. They're talking about it feeling bad to play Dante. They're talking about how 1/4 of his kit has serious inconsistencies that negatively impact their experience playing the game, and ultimately incentivizes them to either twist Dante into a noctua only build, or leave the frame entirely as MR fodders because there are many frames that can do what he does better, faster, and with less investment. The real truth is that there shouldnt be any sacrifice to dante's range nor damage to get his LoS back, because it was never a problem in the first place. I don't know who got inside DE's head about Dante being a problem but all the issues that they keep bringing up related to Dante are either present in several other frames (AOE nuke), or outside mechanics like overguard and LoS that Dante brought to light, but are not him inherently causing the problems. But here we are, and the frame's overall fluidity and gameplay feeling have been cripple because of it. It could be the most damaging frame in the game but I bet you if this LoS issue doesn't get fixed he'll be sitting in the grave alongside that Octavia statistic.

It sets a super bad precedent for the future and is why I'm not going to continue playing personally. It's going to hurt sales, it's going to hurt future frame releases, and it's going to hurt the overall playerbase. It's not the first time but Dante being my favorite frame with a perfect release was the straw that broke it all. It's entirely possible we may even get situations now where people dont use the 50plat to rush because they have no idea if DE is just going to nuke it into the ground. Anyone excited about Jade should be super reserved and careful going into her release because what happened to Dante is a real tragedy one might say.

It's nice that you're getting a good experience out of it but a lot of players are not. I am one of the people that often sees enemies still alive around me because of the myriad of reasons why something might block LoS. DE's current argument is that they had concerns with the range. If that was the problem LoS was not the fix, and it has never been the fix when they say it's a range issue. We went from all of Dante being 100% great to a big chunk of his kit not working most of the time. It just feels bad and it's always going to feel bad with perfect LoS.

It's really not as bad as you might think. One dark verse tag on most dante builds use archon shards for cast speed, so it feel pretty fluid mixing in spell casts with other things if that's how you'd want to play him. But yes it would be far better than its current state.

I love how people here just guzzle up mediocrity like it's healthy for the game.

I get the feeling but wouldn’t we want to bring up other frames to have a similar cohesive experience? I could see an equinox rework doing wonders for that frame. Look what happened to hydroid he’s doing fantastic now and is probably the closest vibe I get to having fun with abilities these days. I feel like more or less steel path is balanced, and if there are frames that are not performing well in it we should be bringing those up. I understand the fear of power creep but we cant just bat something down when everyone was enjoying the Warframe. If everyone liked what Dante was doing, I think it speaks to a greater cause of bringing up other Warframe to have similar cohesive and fun experiences, even if they’re niche.

I just disagree I think LoS was the worst path possible. If these other problems exist and players complained about them, then find solutions to make those experiences better, not nuke the thing that was fun in the first place. You could give kill credit to players that cause the most damage to an enemy.

But I like this one and this one was specifically designed to be ability focused and I like wizard gameplay. I know those things exist. I don’t like those frames. They’re not as fun or interesting or aesthetically pleasing to me. Why does Dante have to take a hit if these other frames have greater power levels than him?

You're dragging the point to absurdity, and also misrepresenting it. Many people here have made the suggestion that if AOE nuking star char was a problem, then you could reduce or even eliminate the base damage entirely because it doesn't matter. Because that damage doesn't matter, it's the prime and detonation combo that we want to feel better gameplay wise. If tragedy had 0 base damage and was just the detonation, but had LoS, we would have a significant drop in complaints. It's the LoS. It's a problem.

You can't prime enemies through walls. Dark verse never had this ability to do so. It was supposed to be the limiting factor when it comes to tragedy. It is what encouraged mobile, tactical, active gameplay. LoS on tragedy is basically like summoning rocks everywhere for you to trip and mess up the detonation, wasting energy, and making the gameplay feel frustrating. With an ability being about 1/4 of his kit feeling really frustrating to use, it drags down the entire experience. It's clunky and honestly depressing when I go cast tragedy and I still see 50-100% of the enemies not die.

🤪 Lying again. What even gives you the power to push past being a liar to make the most stupid of claims. Post a video at this point because you are a fraction of a fraction of people making an absurd claim with zero evidence. The only thing I can think of is that you have some sort of warframe that you like that isn't as good as dante and you want to kick down the people actually enjoying what was a perfect frame. Can you come up with a single good reason as to why dante needed the nerf in the first place instead of saying "just aim lul"? It's the most unproductive, unhelpful, and damaging thing for this game to provide this kind of garbage feedback.

You know it's not the damage we care about DE. You know it's not the range we care about DE. It's like you don't play the frame you just made. It's the feeling the freaking feeling of the wizard detonator ability. None of it should be compromised, but here we are begging on our knees for "nerf the range" this and "remove the flat damage" that. And instead we get "Dante has tons of damage so you should be happy and eat this garbage with gratitude 😀" How can they listen to everything else that's been talked about and when it comes to Dante it's like "Dante? Dante who? You mean Sayrn? She's doing great right now". Who poisoned the well on Dante? Someone in DE clearly just hates this frame exists now and is doing everything they can to keep him in the gutter.

What exactly is the issue with Dante's Tragedy having no LoS? Because from where most of us stand who have played this warframe. It's is limiting to the point where it not fun to play the warframe. So it would be nice to know why he needs the nerf.

You're just so so so wrong on so many levels... If I prime just one group of targets, and then because it's a space ninja game I'm flying around and just so happened to pass by a lantern, or looked in the wrong direction so that my body blocks, my tragedy has now done 0 damage; I have wasted energy. I am now frustrated that the enemies did not die after all of my setup. Removing LoS from tragedy makes all the difference in the gameplay feel of this frame. Dark verse LoS properly limits your ability to spam nuke enemies. The combination of LoS on dark verse and no LoS on tragedy makes for an active, interactive gameplay that feels fluid and responsive with next to 0 issues ever failing to do your combo. I am now incentivised to not use tragedy a whopping 1/4 of his kit is now frustrating to use. It's bad design on what was a near perfect frame release. You clearly have not played octavia, mesa, or saryn, maybe even dante! you run 200+ strength builds on any of these frames, and the moment you chuck octavia's mallet out into the group of enemies they're dead. You cast one spore from sayrn and you can walk away from the game and watch netflix. You press mesa's 4 and enemies vanish before your eyes. Even with archon cast speed increases, dante has to cast 3 abilities, (and often times much more than that on SP, possibly 3-5 dark verse on a nearly 300% ability strength build, to kill everything. It sounds more like we need to buff other frames to bring them in line with how fun dante was to play, not nerf bat things 4 days out of the gate.

Perfect LoS implementation will never make Dante's tragedy feel better. You've been playing warframe right? The game where there's a million objects, walls, pillars, and multi levels where you also move as super speed, while the enemies are also running around? The only situation in which prefect LoS helps is in open world maps. It's just a bad thing to use on an ability like tragedy.

Sounds good to me. Feels pretty fair. Never understood why I could infinitely kill a map of enemies with one button. 🙃

You're a sour person. I've seen you spread lies and misdirection. You know what people are complaining about because I've seen you respond to them. "Just beat DA with Dante" nobody gives a flying titania about that. The fame doesn't feel as good to play anymore, and you pretend it's a power level issue. I wish you the best but this is just sad bootlicking for DE. Everything else about the patch was great why cant Dante be great? Also extremely cringe to merge this into a dead thread DE. Heaven forbid people make a call to action to actually get you to listen. Really failing across the board for me.

That is a death sentence for this frame. If I’m just gonna use guns and not his abilities. I’m gonna play wisp. Dead frame