DE: Reload speed and magazine size should be exilus mods. They do not "increase dps" in any relevant manner. See arguments below.

[Probably_Asleep]

While I do think Reload Speed is (mathematically) increasing sustained DPS, I think an argument could still be made for moving it to the Exilus Slot due to the Eject Magazine mod. That mod is an Exilus, and it allows for "effectively" zero reload time. If paired with a Primary that does the same thing (either with the Synth Mod Set or Incarnon  evolutions like with the Felarx), or Battery Weapons like the Basmu, then the Tenno can fire at a constant rate without ever reloading.

The fact that DE decided to put this mod in the Exilus category should have set a precedent. Reloading is going from an empty to full magazine at the cost of an interruption to DPS. So a mod that goes from an empty to full magazine at no cost is mathematically superior, and it's in the Exilus slot.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

While I do think Reload Speed is (mathematically) increasing sustained DPS, I think an argument could still be made for moving it to the Exilus Slot due to the Eject Magazine mod. That mod is an Exilus, and it allows for "effectively" zero reload time. If paired with a Primary that does the same thing (either with the Synth Mod Set or Incarnon  evolutions like with the Felarx), or Battery Weapons like the Basmu, then the Tenno can fire at a constant rate without ever reloading.

The fact that DE decided to put this mod in the Exilus category should have set a precedent. Reloading is going from an empty to full magazine at the cost of an interruption to DPS. So a mod that goes from an empty to full magazine at no cost is mathematically superior, and it's in the Exilus slot.

Holstered reload mods I think are treated differently for two main reasons.  First, they're much weaker than standard reload mods for sustained DPS on the weapon they're slotted on.  The fastest one of these mods can do a complete reload is 5 seconds, which is as long as the most excruciating unmodded reloads.  Slot regular Fast Hands instead, and one of those excruciating conventional reloads is down to 3.8s.  And that's a best case scenario for Tactical Reload:  the comparison will look much worse on weapons with shorter reload times.

Of course the whole purpose of them is to switch to another weapon, and so miss out on little or no sustained DPS.   And it's super convenient to make partial reloads, which most weapons can't on their own.  But that brings up the second reason:  I think it's clear DE likes to incentivize switching weapons.

I'll also quibble a bit with the word "precedent" you used.  That makes it sound like  holstered reload mods were wrapped into the exilus system later, when in fact these mods were classified as exilus when the system was introduced...i.e., at the same time as Fast Hands etc. weren't classified as exilus.  If that isn't what you meant, than one could just as easily say the fact that conventional reload mods aren't exilus is the precedent, and holstered reload mods shouldn't be either.  (I wouldn't make that argument either.  These mods are related but not the same, and it doesn't bother me that they get treated differently from each other.)

All that said, I do think they are one plausible justification for new, exilus specific reload mods though.  And for increasing the bonuses on the current conventional reload mods.

 

[Probably_Asleep]

46 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Holstered reload mods I think are treated differently for two main reasons.  First, they're much weaker than standard reload mods for sustained DPS on the weapon they're slotted on.  The fastest one of these mods can do a complete reload is 5 seconds, which is as long as the most excruciating unmodded reloads.  Slot regular Fast Hands instead, and one of those excruciating conventional reloads is down to 3.8s.  And that's a best case scenario for Tactical Reload:  the comparison will look much worse on weapons with shorter reload times.

This is a strong point, there are definitely advantages and disadvantages spread between the two reloads. A 5 second reload would be terrible, but even a 1 second reload where nothing happens is less damage than something. A Primary/Secondary swap is roughly 0.3 seconds (which might be less than reload times on some weapons), and a Range/Melee swap is instantaneous (which might be irrelevant if an enemy is out of melee range). I do agree it's not always (or often) a 1-to-1 comparison.

52 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I think it's clear DE likes to incentivize switching weapons.

True

53 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'll also quibble a bit with the word "precedent" you used.  That makes it sound like  holstered reload mods were wrapped into the exilus system later, when in fact these mods were classified as exilus when the system was introduced...i.e., at the same time as Fast Hands etc. weren't classified as exilus.  If that isn't what you meant, than one could just as easily say the fact that conventional reload mods aren't exilus is the precedent, and holstered reload mods shouldn't be either.  (I wouldn't make that argument either.  These mods are related but not the same, and it doesn't bother me that they get treated differently from each other.)

_{(Third draft, just can't shrink this down enough...)}
Okay so I think my basic point is that a precedent is simply a relevant past decision. DE initially said in Update 26 that no-swap-reload is DPS, but swap-reload is Utility. But then Update 32 dropped 0.5-seconds off the swap, increasing Holster-refill DPS. It increased further with the introduction of more powerful secondaries. Those more recent decisions let DPS increase through Exilus mods; a new precedent.

Jade Shadows might reverse this trend by doubling down on the earlier Exilus classification from Update 26, but that's not actually my point. My point is that it is a reversal. We were allowed to increase DPS through Exilus mods, which violated the original principle behind it. DE could either take a reformist or fundamentalist stance on that violation. My vote is that they reform the principle and consider all forms of magazine refill to be utilitarian even if it has some combat benefits.

If I seem curt it's only because I do my best to match my response size. I did like the points you're making and don't at all consider it quibbling.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

If I seem curt

Nope. 

_{( ⬆️That's me going for brief. :P )}

[Probably_Asleep]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Nope. 

_{( ⬆️That's me going for brief. :P )}

Haha! Your efficiency is unbeatable!

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-06-07 at 9:40 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Holstered reload mods I think are treated differently for two main reasons.  First, they're much weaker than standard reload mods for sustained DPS on the weapon they're slotted on.  The fastest one of these mods can do a complete reload is 5 seconds, which is as long as the most excruciating unmodded reloads.  Slot regular Fast Hands instead, and one of those excruciating conventional reloads is down to 3.8s.  And that's a best case scenario for Tactical Reload:  the comparison will look much worse on weapons with shorter reload times.

Of course the whole purpose of them is to switch to another weapon, and so miss out on little or no sustained DPS.   And it's super convenient to make partial reloads, which most weapons can't on their own.  But that brings up the second reason:  I think it's clear DE likes to incentivize switching weapons.

I'll also quibble a bit with the word "precedent" you used.  That makes it sound like  holstered reload mods were wrapped into the exilus system later, when in fact these mods were classified as exilus when the system was introduced...i.e., at the same time as Fast Hands etc. weren't classified as exilus.  If that isn't what you meant, than one could just as easily say the fact that conventional reload mods aren't exilus is the precedent, and holstered reload mods shouldn't be either.  (I wouldn't make that argument either.  These mods are related but not the same, and it doesn't bother me that they get treated differently from each other.)

All that said, I do think they are one plausible justification for new, exilus specific reload mods though.  And for increasing the bonuses on the current conventional reload mods.

 

Let's say we have a weapon with 3 second reload time. A maxed primed reload mod will reduce reload time to 1.93 seconds. That's you giving up a mod slot and 12 mod capacity to save you a whole ONE second on reload.

Let's say there is a gun with 3 second reload time, 90 magazine, 10 fire rate, and each shot deals 1 damage. This means gun spends 9 seconds firing and 3 seconds reloading.

In 120 seconds, this gun does 900 damage without the mod. In 120 seconds with the mod, you do 981 damage. So this is a 9% increase.

This simulation assumes we are standing in front of a dummy and firing at it nonstop. In real combat, you reload in-between killing groups of enemies, not when you are in the middle of shooting them. So if we always do this, we have a 0% dps gain, and if we always reload while shooting enemies we have a 9% gain. Realistically, the average will probably be around 3% because you reload when appropriate most of the time.

So you are spending a mod slot and 12 polarity for a 3% "dps gain". Let's be real, the reload is more to make the gun feel smoother than for the dps gain at this point. You won't be able to even fit it on a non-kuva/tenet gun without using cheap mods in the normal slots or having forma on every single slot of the weapon.

Projectile speed mods contribute far more to dps than these do, cuz when you shoot that enemy 30m away, he will take 80% of your fallen off damage rather than 30% (it also feels good for helping you land bullets if you want them to move faster so you can land hits from further away instead of having enemy move by the time the bullets reach them)

How about we stop with all the over-complicated arguments about dps gain and call this what it is. These are mods that are exilus. Their contribution is for adjusting the behavior of the feel of handling the gun the same as other exilus. We don't need new mods. We need these mods to go where they belong.

Edited June 9 by Redrigoth

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Redrigoth said:

Let's say we have a weapon with 3 second reload time. A maxed primed reload mod will reduce reload time to 1.93 seconds. That's you giving up a mod slot and 12 mod capacity to save you a whole ONE second on reload.

If reload mods aren't made exilus we might have room for agreement in part, in that I think there is some room to make reload mods more powerful.  Although what I most want is a full pass on reload times, cutting these down for most weapons, single target weapons especially.

1 hour ago, Redrigoth said:

This simulation assumes we are standing in front of a dummy and firing at it nonstop. In real combat, you reload in-between killing groups of enemies, not when you are in the middle of shooting them.

Unless I'm playing an invisible frame, in the content I play, more often than not I don't have the opportunity to reload "in between groups of enemies".  Even when I do have that opportunity, I usually like to cut that window as short as possible.  So it's advantageous to me and efficient to have shorter reload times. 

It might be helpful to think more in terms of KPM, as I agree with you that standing in front of  target and unloading mag after mag into it is a relative rarity in this game.   A constant flow of targets though...I do that a lot.

1 hour ago, Redrigoth said:

Projectile speed mods contribute far more to dps than these do

They can on the minority of weapons with falloff, especially the ones with very punishing falloff.  Especially if they're used like they don't have falloff.   There are probably a few more with low projectile speed and extreme arcing like Pox where there are effective DPS gains to be made with these mods.  Although again, just like falloff, some of this is fixable without using mods. 

 

[KVenom]

YES. It's been long overdue.

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-06-13 at 3:11 AM, KVenom said:

YES. It's been long overdue.

It's time for the revolution. All the players need to push this agenda.

[KVenom]

В 17.06.2024 в 03:25, Redrigoth сказал:

It's time for the revolution. All the players need to push this agenda.

This one, or mine:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1399939-should-unused-mod-points-be-applied-as-some-sort-of-bonus/?do=findComment&comment=13053155

 

With mine you get either of those things for the unused points in your build.

[Redrigoth]

21 hours ago, KVenom said:

This one, or mine:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1399939-should-unused-mod-points-be-applied-as-some-sort-of-bonus/?do=findComment&comment=13053155

 

With mine you get either of those things for the unused points in your build.

I don't think tying reload speed and magazine size to available mod capacity is a good idea. Generally people put as much forma as they need and you don't want to put extra forma and restrict the flexibility of what mods can be put on other configs. It will also make the gun feel different on each config and throw you off its timing.

[KVenom]

В 19.06.2024 в 20:25, Redrigoth сказал:

I don't think tying reload speed and magazine size to available mod capacity is a good idea. Generally people put as much forma as they need and you don't want to put extra forma and restrict the flexibility of what mods can be put on other configs. It will also make the gun feel different on each config and throw you off its timing.

Two words: Lich. Weapons.

And another two words: Wasted. Capacity.

 

The last two especially bother be like hell. Like, I have 8 wasted points just because I had to add 1 more forma for that extra "OOMPH!" on the weapon. Even if we are not talkin' Kuva/Tennet weapons -  those teeny-tiny 3-8 points bother me like an annoying itch, that can't be scratched or washed away. At least we'd have some compensation for those.