Jade's quest and her in-game model after the quest

[Yrkul]

1 hour ago, Luigispikachu said:

I've blocked plenty of people here during these discussions for one thing:

 

Saying the same intolerant points over and over, treating us like we should feel bad about not liking or feeling comfortable about Jade's design.

 

Look, If my block list was everyone who say at even one point "don't give them a toggle" than it'd be at least twice as long a list of people.

 

But you have to understand that tolerance isn't a given, it's a social contract. As in if you want to treat my points like they're invalid because "they're just a feeling" and you then go on to not explain your side at all? I'm just going to assume you're attacking me for my views because you feel like it and I'm not going to spare you another though because you wouldn't spare me one.

 

I'm all for genuine discussions. If I can have a reason why you think a toggle is bad that makes sense? Go ahead and explain. I'm not going to understand how you think if you don't.

The update seems to have lured the worst of the community out in the open. Ironically, these aren't the critics of the new content, but mostly the apologists and adherents to... certain views.

It is fairly easy to point out faults in their arguments, often because they're reliant on fallacies and certain types of thinking, but as we've already seen here, those bad-faith arguments are easily shot down. The problem is, though, the sheer volume of drivel, and the telltale tendency to just ignore the better argument. Some people have been programmed to just not register anything challenging what exists inside their narrow epistemic bubble.

I'm very slow to put people on ignore, but seeing the amount of abuse and sh*tposting flung around for almost two weeks now, I can certainly understand it.

[WanderingJoe]

The crux of the issue to these back and forth comments is that there is one aspect of any discussion in which another can never find any purchase through reasoning: telling someone else how they feel. Now, you may appeal to them about an issue in order to change thier viewpoint and thus how they feel about it, but if the subject you're addressing is directly how someone feels, you can never tell someone how they themselves feel. At best, they just get tired of talking with you about it. 

When it comes to one's sensibilities, saying things like she's not actually pregnant or that warframe comes in all shapes and sizes doesn't solve the disconnect for that person. It's for the very same reason people find it abhorrent  that Ballas turned her and her unborn child into a warframe (great storytelling by the way, it gets the intended emotional response) that some of us find it disturbing: Pregnancy has some taboo to it, though that's not to say you can't talk about it. I just mean it in the sense that it's something many people inherently find it to be something you should not mess with. If two women get slapped, and one of them is pregnant, slapping the pregnant woman will cause more outrage from any onlookers. It's unacceptable to mess with the primordial condition that allows us to survive as human beings. None of us would be here without it, and we understand that fact intrinsically, without ever being explicitly taught to behave as such.

Now, I bring this all up to highlight that no amount of arguing is going to solve the disconnect in our minds that we instinctively rebel against the idea of playing as, or having to play with, a pregnant warframe. And that word is the crux of the issue, as DE banning it from thier live streams durring the spoiler embargo is sure to highlight. 

But we're not throwing a fit about it either. The appeal for an alternate appearance for jade is an effort to put the right food forward, approach the situation reasonably, and to keep our conduct civil. There's a reason we keep mentioning that in our posts as we absolutely do not want this dialogue to turn hostile, or demanding, or insulting, or what have you. It is through the act of trying to be reasonable that we hope, not demand, that we can have our viewpoint be taken into reasonable consideration by DE.

If you agree with us. That's fine. If you disagree with us, that's fine too. The act of trying to foster proper behavior while giving constructive negative feedback is something that needs to be observed and respected.

Edited Monday at 02:23 PM by WanderingJoe

[(XBOX)Omega399]

30 minutes ago, Yrkul said:

The update seems to have lured the worst of the community out in the open. Ironically, these aren't the critics of the new content, but mostly the apologists and adherents to... certain views.

You are right in that it has lured out the worst of the community, you are wrong in assuming its only those who are not critical of the update.

Its everyone willing to put their immaturity on full display, its everyone who feels they need to have the last word, its everyone using whatever excuse they can find as a bludgeon, its everyone who is so focused on "winning" some superfluous argument that they refuse to listen to basic common sense.

Its every single person blinded by sheer hubris to think that they haven't begun devolving into the same rancid attitudes the defunct Halo Waypoint forums used to cultivate. Its okay to have a stance or an opinion on a subject, its not okay to attack anyone for agreeing or disagreeing with it.

 

Truthfully? Odds are Jades base design will not be changed. The official forums only account for a very small portion of the overall community, and its clear that there's more indifference in the broader community than anything else. Be it Jade(Xbox), Dex, Holiday, or Prime; the Belly is likely there to stay. The only exception I can see being if DE is really cool and makes a Khora/Mirage Style Deluxe skin that also introduces new animation sets.

[Gaxxian]

En 30/6/2024 a las 14:11, Yrkul dijo:

Besides, if you just block someone you don't agree with, you won't learn anything. And it is not like she's causing me any kind of distress, bumbling around in the discussion and elsewhere on the forum, making a fool of herself.

Personally, i like to block any person that comes into the forums to argue in bad faith or just lie or has a idiocy/fallacy level off charts. Since the messages can be readed anyways, i always end reading everything anyways, but the system gives me a second so i can adjuts my mind and not lose IQ while im reading casually some messages.

hace 3 horas, Luigispikachu dijo:

Saying the same intolerant points over and over, treating us like we should feel bad about not liking or feeling comfortable about Jade's design.

People like those, or the ones that instead of opening their own threads to talk why they liked something, and instead they come to bomb threads made by people that just doesn't have their same opinions, are excellent examples of the types of persons that i tend to block.

There were a lot of those when Dante's update came, and it seems like another bunch came with this new one. In each patch it seems like new ones arise... sadly its not a "this update" thing.

hace 1 hora, WanderingJoe dijo:

Now, I bring this all up to highlight that no amount of arguing is going to solve the disconnect in our minds that we instinctively rebel against the idea of playing as, or having to play with, a pregnant warframe. And that word is the crux of the issue, as DE banning it from thier live streams durring the spoiler embargo is sure to highlight. 

To me, all that "avoid spoiler" that DE is making, has no sense... you can just go to any random team, see a Jade, and you already know all the spoilers you need. Its just absurd ^^!

[Yrkul]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

You are right in that it has lured out the worst of the community, you are wrong in assuming its only those who are not critical of the update.

That should not be read as an absolute. I know the "mostly" is rather subtle, but I'm not writing to the lowest common denominator.

What makes this whole debacle so pernicious is, that there aren't any clear lines to be drawn in the discussion. Some seem to suffer from genuine trauma, while others obviously participate in the victimhood economy. They share a lot of arguments, but end up in various stances of appeal, regret, demand, etc. The counter-reaction often stems from the current discourse losing patience/tolerance with said victimhood economy/powerplay, and since not everyone is well versed in constructing sound arguments, or are willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, the discourse will invariably turn toxic.

And that's only one facet of this whole kerfuffle. We also have participants, who wants to push boundaries, alledgedly abolish norms, and all that nonsense. DE has been catering to those people for years now. And if you've been through that indoctrination/autoindoctrination process, you have a hard time listening to people outside your personal echo chamber.

And we have the sh*tlords, who just want to stir things up. This is the internet, after all. As it creates a communicative bridge between everyone here, there are bound to be trolls living under those bridges. We see a lot of examples of feigned ignorance/idiocy, and while it all might seem a bit silly over all, it still differs from the biased and manipulative arguments.

I lean towards an explaination rooted in psychology and evolutionary psychology of the prevalent reaction to seeing a pregnant woman in combat/getting hurt, that of an instinct to protect. If people have a counter-argument based on scientifically valid research, I welcome them to refute that. But as it is, I'm just seeing trolling, opinions and ideologically driven drivel. I don't mind a bit of discoursive fencing. I just wish people would show up armed.

And I don't expect DE to make any changes either. The way they've handled, or rather haven't handled this tells me, that they aimed to make waves with this. If this was a publicity stunt, an attempt to ingratiate themselves with groups with certain... proclivities, or they were trying to send a message/make a point/push boundaries themselves, is at this point guesswork. But they've sorely lacked the grace to handle the impact, the update has had on the player base.

[ChaqueXR]

I would like to say that as much as I am really not appealed towards Jade's visual design, I have decided to pick up Warframe again.

I think it's not nice (for me at the very least) that chances are they won't do anything about Jade's design and it's going to be that way for good, and I think it came to me that I shouldn't let me own personal bias/agenda/standards get in between me and a game that I actively enjoy and I come back to every time I take a break, more frequently than any other game have achieved for me. Because that's what Warframe really means to me: a game, despite the flaws that only educated people (as in those who actually do enough research) know about, has more benefits for someone's time to have an enjoyable playing session than its flaws, due to the nature of what Warframe is. It's also one the games that can bring controversies within its lore ranging from the Orokin Empire to whatever narratives we have now, with how many different stories and revelations we have, and it's funny we're not at the end of the line of the whole narrative the game can provide yet (at least I feel it's not implied for now).

It's worthy to note that I also decided to obtain Jade, play her, customize her and make the best out of her kit.

I just need people to understand that as many as each side of the opinions in this thread contains, regardless of who's statistically or even logically winning: this is just a game where we get to meet people online and have fun together primarily, and not somewhere to debate standards for the most part even if whatever we get in-game is easy to have controversial debates about, all while demeaning other parties of the same topic. I would still appreciate if we get communication from the designers of Jade about the debates in this thread regardless of what they have to say about it but I think I can come to a closure about this whole discussion personally in a very short statement..

It's still a game and I want to enjoy it.

[WanderingJoe]

A bit wordy but I think I can accept your reasoning in good faith. Anyone who plays a game is going to have opinions on it. This is the feedback section specifically about Jade and her weapon. Its the perfect place to put your opinion about her as long as it's meant to be constructive. For those of us here asking for an auxiliary toggle or a deluxe skin with a different body shape, this is exactly where we should say so. No invading unrelated threads and storming the castle, just a civil request for an additional feature so we can enjoy our experience more.