Jade needs a skin

[WanderingJoe]

Ive been a member of these forums since 2016. No bot account here. 

To anyone who feels discouraged about saying that Jade's appearance is making you feel uncomfortable, you have every right as a player of this game to speak up about it. Don't ever let someone guilt or gaslight you into thinking that how something makes you feel does not matter. Given that this thread is three pages long by now, you're not alone in feeling this way about Jade's appearance. The more we talk about this, the more DE is likely to notice and address us directly.

And for people who do like the design, it's really fine that you do. It really is. We just disagree. for those of us whom her design is making us feel uncomfortable, all we're asking for is a toggleable appearance, not to remover her current appearance from the game. the "worst case" scenario of DE listening to our request would be the best of both worlds for the player base.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

Errr okay man thats a lot of conspiratorial thinking lol.

Eh, I've become a lot more overcautious since the old Halo Waypoint days, sadly there were a lot of untrustworthy sorts over there that would exploit real world issues to get what they wanted, even if it generally blew up in their faces 90% of the time.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I started playing warframe in february on ps5 and linked my account at some point after so that I could trade with someone.

Oooh ok, yeah, PS5 is odd since I don't think its displayed prominently like Xbox is (was sort of on the fence whether that was the case or not, but decided it was at least worthy of mention given how it was a 50/50 either way). Still, you guys do seem fairly new, so I'm more concerned that this might be more of kneejerk reaction to a smaller part of a bigger set of issues you might have the further along you get into the game.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

If you look at my comments you’ll see that I only posted here after googling how to give feedback. This is the only post I’ve ever made on the forums because I don’t really care about most decisions too much. Most of my gripes with the game are with things DE won’t change but this seems like something that would affect a lot of people, and seeing my fiance upset was enough to make me want to try to get something done.

while it is true that it can affect a fair amount of people, how it affects those people and the reasons why it affects those people aren't nearly as universal. For some its positive, for others its as it was for you two; a sad reminder of what happened. 

I am sorry that it happened to have been a painful reminder for your spouse, but at the same time, I don't support the goal that it seems like you were hoping to accomplish for the reason you stated, since it feels more like an extreme overcorrection to something that at a certain point becomes self-inflicted. Most people who take to dislking specific elements of a frame typically switch over to one of the other 50+ available frames that are less troubling to that individual and get rid of the offending frame, rather than demand that initial frame be change so that they can like it (unless it was Hildryn, because that was a pretty awful time iirc). While it sucks that it cost you a pretty penny, its honestly no different to anyone else who's purchased Microtransactions and regretted it afterwards for any number of reasons.

That said; I do agree there is some criticism to be thrown DE's way for not being a bit more transparent at launch about what elements were ingrained in the frames design, especially when they did include a trigger warning elsewhere. I understand it was to preserve the twist for the quest, but it does suck in cases like this.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I don’t even have a reddit account, I saw the reddit posts because I googled something like “Jade pregnancy belly warframe” to see if other people felt the same and if there was already some pushback.

i spend too much time doomscrolling in my free time at work lol.

I've spent enough time around reddit over the years to know that its not really indicative of the full picture, even if it does have some people raising good points at times.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I have nothing to do with the petition, I just signed it.

Fair.

That said, to me that petition in question just felt predatory the way it was dropped in the comments, which was where my suspicion came from.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I think you need to ask yourself how likely it is that someone would feel like me and my fiance do about this, given the amount of people who play the game. Also, even if there was some planned thing to attack Jade’s appearance, would that make the arguments invalid?

Unfortunately, I think there's more indifference or superficial reasons when it comes to people who take things like DE choosing an aesthetic design seriously, rather than people who share the exact same feelings as you two who suffered a tragedy.

And if there was a planned attack on how she looks, than it becomes a Kwite situation, where it harms people like yourselves since it makes it harder to not feel doubt whenever trauma is brought up in a serious manner, as now there's constant doubt as to who is being 100% honest.

5 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I’m not gonna ask her to post aswell lol. Plus her account is 2 days newer than mine (I think) and I had her link her account shortly after I did mine because it then wouldn’t let me trade with her ps5 only account from my now-pc account. That whole process was painful. Either way, it wouldn’t change your mind. Also, she wouldn’t be half as reasonable as I am lol.

That is fair, I really wouldn't want to put them on the spot either. just: trust issues on my part. Always concerned whenever someone is posting on behalf of someone else.

I will admit though, I don't usually trust newer accounts for two reasons; first being I worry the people in question may be reacting to something before really having the full context of other things within the game and its setting, which means that while a change may get pushed through due to a particular feeling, the people who spearheaded such change will have made it at the detriment of others as they abandoned the game afterwards upon realizing their issues run deeper than the focal issue, and second being the risk of sockpuppets simply trying to make changes for selfish reasons.

Like, currently people are upset at Jade for the whole belly thing, but then the question crossing my mind is if they're aware Citrine has what some folks may consider a visible hysterectomy, which is in many ways worse. 

6 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

I’m sorry about it hitting close to home for you, regardless of any online shade you may or may not be casting lol. No-one deserves that pain

Thank you.

It honestly took a lot of internal debate if I should even share my opinion, since it is a tough subject to discuss.

 

I do agree in many ways, and think the best kind of consensus is having an option that makes things a lot easier for people to stomach, even if its just her getting a Deluxe skin that takes the emphasis off of her having a life-bearing maternal design, much like Yareli Pandea drops the magical girl elements in favor of a more traditional design akin to the older frames like Ember and Ivara, and possibly even giving her a new set of animations like Khora and Mirage recieved with their Deluxe designs.

[WanderingJoe]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

And if there was a planned attack on how she looks, than it becomes a Kwite situation, where it harms people like yourselves since it makes it harder to not feel doubt whenever trauma is brought up in a serious manner, as now there's constant doubt as to who is being 100% honest.

This isn't planned, none of us know each other.... and I know how that sounds XD. Either way, Thank you for your well thought out response to the situation Omega. Posts like this are just what we need so DE vcan properly guage wether or not there is a large enough section of the fanbase to decide if there needs to be changes made or not. And who knows, maybe they'll decide there aren't enough of us. Maybe they will. Pretty much all anyone on this forum is asking for is the chance to make thier voice heard to DE and speaking in good faith during this discussion is the only way to be taken seriously.

Edited June 24 by WanderingJoe

[Circle_of_Psi]

I'm curious to why DE hasn't responded to this yet

[WanderingJoe]

Easy! Tenno con is only a month away and they already told us why they'd be going dark with communications with the community. The main team is hard at work making sure everything will go off without a hitch. If they choose to adress this controversy, it will likely be at or after Tennocon.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

To be fair, I think DE's also giving it the Hildryn wait and see, since it doesn't seem like Jade really is as controversial as people are making her out to be. Like most of the negative reception seems to have peaked a day or two after her release saw a fair bit of positive reception, and has been largely overtaken by indifference or more gameplay-focused issues since. 

[WanderingJoe]

Small update: there will be one last dev stream before tenno con on Thursday. Since they announced this after saying they'd have no more before tenno con, this may be in response to this controversy but it very much may not be as well. Trying to keep things realistic with my posts. Either way I can't watch it live because of work but I'd love it if you guys let us know what happens on these threads so I can check on what's happening during my breaks.

[(XBOX)AnnabelleNewell]

On 2024-06-22 at 3:04 PM, ChangelingRain said:

[Citation needed]. She has the exact same glowing orb in her belly as she does in the quest, that, in the quest, leaves her belly when she gives birth. So the simplest explanation is that the Jade we build is still pregnant.

No she is not. Please take a class in female anatomy after birth.

It's clear sex-ed is failing in public schools.

[(XBOX)AnnabelleNewell]

On 2024-06-22 at 3:17 PM, WanderingJoe said:

And you, madam, are practicing selective reading, ignoring context clues.

Your posts seem disingenuous in nature. The people who have a complaint about this situation are entitled to their opinions and if DE values their consumer base, they should be willing to at least consider the voices of some of their customer base if they have an issue with an update. For every new mother that loves the idea of sharing the figure of a new frame there are those of us who do not relish the though pf playing a warframe that will permanently look pregnant, despite your attempts to misconstrue the conversation by say pregnancy bellies don't go away immediately. The argument made for saying "she's not pregnant, she just looks like it" contradicts your point as it acknowledges that Jade will continue to look this way in perpetuity if this slowly building into a controversial topic is not addressed. She will always look pregnant unless her appearance is updated, so the argument of how an irl body changes over time does not apply to digital assets.

If you want people to listen, don't simply tell them their opinion is stupid so they should just go away and not play the game. Talk reasonably. Genuinely approach the issue and perhaps you may persuade some here to your position. Perhaps you will find yourself persuaded as well. We are open to discussion like reasonable people.

At the very least, recognize that if our attempts to talk about this are as futile as you say they are, then surely this thread is harmless as it wouldn't produce results. We hope otherwise. 

Sincerely
     a Wandering Joe

I'm not acknowledging this drivel. Go about your day. I agreed with you up until you contradicted yourself.

[(XBOX)AnnabelleNewell]

On 2024-06-23 at 12:12 AM, 0bsi said:

No it doesn't, but it also doesn't stay as big as it is before the birth, nor does it have a moving light inside it that can be interpreted as life inside... and (speaking from exeperience as someone who has been pregnant and birthed a child), a no-longer-pregnant woman doesn't lovingly rub the belly as she does in her idle animations.  The animation set alone implies that she is pregnant.
 

Whether or not there is supposed to be a baby inside there or not, the representation of a pregnant belly (whether there is a baby inside or not) is enough for some people to feel uncomfortable.

People feeling uncomfortable with a belly sure must hate Grendel too huh?

Its a dumb thing to be upset over.

[(XBOX)AnnabelleNewell]

On 2024-06-24 at 3:46 PM, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

To be fair, I think DE's also giving it the Hildryn wait and see, since it doesn't seem like Jade really is as controversial as people are making her out to be. Like most of the negative reception seems to have peaked a day or two after her release saw a fair bit of positive reception, and has been largely overtaken by indifference or more gameplay-focused issues since. 

She's honestly a solid frame, she needs a bit of work to make her abilities a smidge stronger is all because she can be very squishy in combat and flight is rather slow on her 4th.

[WanderingJoe]

Im not exactly sure how to make quotes from other threads so Ill just quote myself on this,

"You cant gaslight or guilt trip people into being less uncomfortable about something. Warframe isn't like being out in public, its entertainment. The idea that you're not allowed to speak out against certain type of messaging is ridiculous. We're not obligated to agree with DE's decisions just like other people aren't obligated to agree with us. The idea that its fine that you're uncomfortable about something but that you cant say it... We have autonomy, we can think for ourselves. Stopping people from thinking for themselves and seeing something that is in plain sight? People are not going to take that. It goes both ways. If people are trying to bring something to DE's attention that lessens their experience and someone is asking "Why are you trying to do that? Its not that big of a deal," It's not a good argument. Because if it wasn't that big of a deal, they would not have put it into the game. The choice to portray Jade in such a way after her quest is something everyone agrees has significance, we're just disagreeing on which significance it has.

Don't ever let someone try to make you feel stupid for caring about something because they'd be doing the exact same thing as you, possibly even worse, if they were in your position. To everyone who feels uncomfortable about how Jade looks, and you see someone who is trying to tell you that you shouldn't be complaining, they are complaining even more than you are to you, something they would not spend the time or effort to do if it truly did not matter. Never let people do that to you."
 
I at the very least  expect anyone reading these threads can tell which discussions are made in good faith and which ones are designed to shutdown any opinion not their own. Ironic really... that the ones that want to take tolerance as their standpoint are the most intolerant ones speaking on these threads. as I have in the past, I encourage people to post as though they were sending a letter to DE. There's nothing much to be gained about trying to convince the way that you feel. Think for yourselves about the matter, carefully consider your stance, and then please return to let us know how you feel about this request of a subset of the community that's only asking for the imagery to be optional, much like Kullervo and his auxiliary knives.

[ChangelingRain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

No she is not. Please take a class in female anatomy after birth.

It's clear sex-ed is failing in public schools.

Are you telling me the glowing orb that represents pregnancy is supposed to stick around after you give birth? It definitely leaves Jade's body in the quest, though, so I don't think you're right.

[Martaskis]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

People feeling uncomfortable with a belly sure must hate Grendel too huh?

Its a dumb thing to be upset over.

I'm sorry, are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset? 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

She's honestly a solid frame, she needs a bit of work to make her abilities a smidge stronger is all because she can be very squishy in combat and flight is rather slow on her 4th.

 I feel your honest option is more valid in another thread, instead of this one. As this one is discussing the potential for changing her look. 

As I am reading these comments, I am simply disgusted with how we are treating each other on this issue, that being said everyone is entitled to "their" option. However, if you cannot see the validity in the claims of this issue then you are not understanding the issue at the core. 

On 2024-06-24 at 10:59 AM, Circle_of_Psi said:

I'm curious to why DE hasn't responded to this yet

I am almost wondering this as well, maybe the thread is not gaining enough traction? I understand that DE maybe going dark, but they have always been upstanding with community standards on addressing issues. 

[Vaz2017]

On 2024-06-24 at 1:46 PM, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

To be fair, I think DE's also giving it the Hildryn wait and see, since it doesn't seem like Jade really is as controversial as people are making her out to be. Like most of the negative reception seems to have peaked a day or two after her release saw a fair bit of positive reception, and has been largely overtaken by indifference or more gameplay-focused issues since. 

I'm still VERY interested in a response, and believe one is needed, and am sure I'm not alone. I just don't like posting again after I've made my points, and I'm probably not alone in that either.

[Erasculio]

On 2024-06-22 at 4:44 AM, WanderingJoe said:

Her appearance makes me uncomfortable.

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

30 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

I'm sorry, are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

[Vaz2017]

Just now, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

One of the reasons we forget what it was like being born is because it's traumatic.

Anyway, comparing this to racism and sexism is disingenuous. There's an obvious difference, when you're not just playing semantics to hurt people.

Pregnancy is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's pregnant, I can in fact look away. leave, etc., and it's not going to be a long encounter even if I don't. Jade's protruding uterus is a design choice in a game, and Jade is in every public squad currently. No, I'm not going to stop joining public squads, because then I'll just be stuck with the thought that I'm doing it to avoid Jade, and that defeats the purpose of avoidance.

To the people asking for this, it's important. To you, it clearly isn't. To anyone else, it isn't. To DE, it shouldn't be. So where's the harm to you if a little graphical change is made or a toggle provided? Why are you choosing to fight this?

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel. The wording of the question doesn't quite make it explicit, but it's obviously about people who have had traumatic experiences with childbirth, such as forced birth, tokophobia, medical abuse, miscarriage, or maternal mortality. It may be a part of life, but it is not an everyday thing, and it can go wrong in many horrible ways. Until recently, it was common for women to die in childbirth, and it's still very much a thing that can happen.

[Martaskis]

8 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

While, I see your point to this, the original reason for my post was to call out who I had quoted. 
However, I feel that there is some positivity that can be brought from the negativity of this forum. We can speak our minds on asking for a toggle, and or a skin. This is over an internet forum, so I can't say I understand how people are feeling over the issue. While that might be the case of my own option I still stand next to their original post. 

To address the first part of your post, as I said I see your point and wanted to address it, as I see reason too. If someone feels "uncomfortable" we simply cannot say, oh, just brush it off it'll be fine! The alternative is to not drag someone down just because they have an emotional response. Again, while I cannot understand the reason why people are upset I can see the reasons why they are. You know, by reading? And, yes I do agree with you on a certain aspect of pregnancy discrimination, but as the original post implies they had 0 idea that it would be like that and that is not far to a consumer of this game. While most will not agree with my stance on how I am approaching this, I hope we all can find positive reactions and be kinder to each other. 

[Martaskis]

4 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel. The wording of the question doesn't quite make it explicit, but it's obviously about people who have had traumatic experiences with childbirth, such as forced birth, tokophobia, medical abuse, miscarriage, or maternal mortality. It may be a part of life, but it is not an everyday thing, and it can go wrong in many horrible ways. Until recently, it was common for women to die in childbirth, and it's still very much a thing that can happen.

Just to make sure we are on the same page here, please see what I quoted and revert back to my original question. The wording of my question is in place to ask for the persons reasons. It was never cruel to ask the question why that person felt it was a dumb idea that people were upset. As you pretty much solve the question, if humans felt upset over the issue it has a likely reason to be that way. 

[SirKeksalot]

24 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

That's not at all the same. The concerns people express are not bigoted in nature, and they've mostly been articulated quite well. I don't see their side, but I can understand it. In a game that's not specifically about this subject, knowing that some people have their own trauma over it or other reasons to take issue with it, I don't see the harm in an OPTIONAL off-switch for it.

27 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

Cheers to that, but not everyone sees that here. Some have other emotional responses. They don't want pregnant people to be silenced, as some do with queer people, poc, or women; they're thinking of bad experiences or rational fears and don't need it presented in this way with no recourse. Personally, coming from my own queer perspective, I find Jade empowering. Other people don't. That's ok. I just want this Warframe to make everyone happy, even if it can't do that in the same way for us all.

[Erasculio]

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

One of the reasons we forget what it was like being born is because it's traumatic.

 

No. We don't remember what it was like being born because our brains are not developed enough at birth to make this kind of long lasting memory. You may think it's "traumatic", but that's just your interpretation of a completely natural and desired phenomenon.

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

Pregnancy is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's pregnant, I can in fact look away. leave, etc.

Being black is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's back, I can in fact look away, leave, etc.

Being trans is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's trans, I can in fact look away, leave, etc.

Do you realize what you sound like?

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel.

No, it's literally how life is. You can bury your head in the sand and pretent that pregnancies don't exist, but that won't change the world around you.

 

7 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

If someone feels "uncomfortable" we simply cannot say, oh, just brush it off it'll be fine!

Not only we can, we should.

Say, for example, that someone had an elderly loved one who just died.

Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?

Of course they wouldn't.

We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game.

[Martaskis]

30 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

Not only we can, we should.

Say, for example, that someone had an elderly loved one who just died.

Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?

Of course they wouldn't.

We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game.

So it's cool to not have empathy for someone's suffering? I think what you are saying is correct, and what I am saying is correct. But let's break this down so we can have a civil conversation on this. 

"Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?" 

Again, while I cannot see reasons why someone would. We have to understand that traumatic experiences are traumatic for a reason, what if you came on here with an issue and someone said hey, its not an issue blow it off? 

"Of course they wouldn't."

But somehow, players still do....... 

"We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game." 


This is the part I can agree to disagree with, it's not just this post, go back and look at all the other posts that people have; created, replied, chatted in. I do not see DE changing anything on the frame, while I agree on the OP's post try to understand the perspective of others, While I cannot understand your reasonings for seeing that way, I won't fault you in your option, I am just glad we can have a conversation. 

[WanderingJoe]

1 hour ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

You sound like the kind of person who takes their baby to a movie theatre.

[Erasculio]

3 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

So it's cool to not have empathy for someone's suffering?

No, it's cool to understand that the real world is not social media, in which people easily block & ignore anything they don't like.

Learning to deal with frustration, with things that are part of the world and that will not change, is necessary in order to live (at least, live outside of Plato's cave).

A pregnant woman is not something intrinsically "bad", or "ugly" or "evil" to be censored. If someone has an issue with them, the solution is not to censor the pregnant woman, rather for the person to work on their own issues. Is is easy? No. Is it painless? No. But it's better than burying their head in the sand and pretending their problem does not exist.

[WanderingJoe]

Trying to call people sexist, racist, homophobic and all the ists and isms under the sun to try and throw the weight of other issues behind your remarks just shows you don't have enough confidence in your ability to confront the stance that an optional appearance that you could choose not to partake in has no downsides for you beyond the fact that you want to win and feel like you have a moral victory. Everyone else is having a discussion, you're having an argument.