EDA sucks.

[Lord_Drod]

I have solo-ed EDA every single week since release on 34-37, but this crap is not fun at all.  It would not be fun in groups either for me.  It is not fun in my top gear/favorite gear, with everything off.  I don't know who this content is for, but I guess it is not for me.
 

So you have wardens, hollow veins, rogue voidrigs that take some time to kill, and liminus units.  Then you have energy exhaustion. parasitic towers, and myopic munitions.  There's nothing fun about those combinations of things.  It would not be fun in groups either because people will just be going down.  (The only thing that makes this "designed for group play" is just that by playing in groups, you don't take the aggro, the host does.)  I hope you realize there is no team oriented goal here or collaboration anymore than the rest of the game is.  Players with more tools and investment just carry those with less, like every other area of the game. 

Those combinations of things just ultimately limit shield gating, limit abilities and force you to have to stack a bunch of HP and DR.  That's really the wrong approach to difficulty.  The game should be about movement and making decisions, not building so you can tank.  Building to tank is something beginners do, so I guess this is a beginner mission.  Building and wanting a permadeath mode is for beginners.  That is not hard.  That's just stacking gear.  There's nothing special about going all out defense, using arcanes and helminth.  That's gear based and not skill based.  It's not testing how you play the frame or rewarding you for that.  It's disabling that completely and then calling that difficulty.

The gameplay is just really poor.  I really don't enjoy it and I'm providing feedback because I feel like most people are centered on the wrong criticism of the mode.  I'm perfectly fine with RNG.  Parasitic towers just sucks.  It's a movement based game, but the incentive here is to camp in a small area, so the enemies are close to you and more dangerous.  Why would I want to do that?  I snap abort survivals if people are doing that in other missions, yet here, I'm forced to do it to earn rewards.  No no, that didn't count, he was too far away.

So what's the point of using abilities to kill?  There isn't any in a mode like this.  We have all these frames that do all this cool stuff and you think there's cooperative play if you limit the gameplay to a 10m radius on a tile that is 1000m by 1000m?  It is the absolute worst and believe me, if I can do this solo every week for max rewards, I can certainly do it in a group with my eyes shut.

So far, the only creative thing you can do for difficulty is no mods, no abilities, no energy, powerless, kill in a tiny circle, and permadeth.  Yeah, none of that is difficulty or testing anything.  It's not fun or creating collaboration and I'm confused as to anyone thinks it would be.

Why would I ever build for permadeath?  I've probably used all my revives once in the past 10,000+ games.  Building for permadeath uses different polarities.  It gimps your builds.  It lowers your power for what actually matters, because permadeath doesn't matter.  Failing a mission by deaths isn't something that can happen.  So let's introduce it, for no other reason, but this mode, where I'm still just slapping crap on to get the reward.  And if I went all out defense/energy regen and armor taus and spent a lot of time, I would not have anymore fun, because the core gameplay is what is lacking.

TLDR - The gameplay is awful in your top top.  You can't really utilize any of the skills you've learned or invested in because the game just turns them all off and forces you play a certain way and thinks that's teamwork.  Permadeath isn't Warframe or challenging.  It's just gear and in a group, there is no permadeath, so it's obviously harder solo dealing with permadeath.  It was supposedly designed for group play as a challenging mission.  It does not accomplish either of those goals.  You're also more likely to solo so you don't have to redo the missions again, because it's not that enjoyable to replay alchemy or survival or any one of these missions since they all take 9-10 mins.

And shards are nothing special.  This grind isn't really worth it.  I felt this way before EDA came out, having done every Archon hunt and Kahl mission, but now I feel ready to drop again.  But good job DE, you've convinced the base shards are an amazing reward along with those awful incarnons (except that one melee that deleted the arsenal more than atterax and scoliac combined).

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Y'know, come to think of it, everytime I've been very frustrated at the modifiers, it's been vampyric liminus. Everytime I had a bad time otherwise was because I had no access to a good Melee Influence abusing melee.

 

Archon Shards are great, but, again, diversity isn't really what we're getting here either. EDA is just a long boring task so you get a chance at getting the right shards you need for your next build.

I have only missed a grand total of two shards since they were introduced, and I'm about done with most builds with regular shards, just missing about 10 frames at most. I'm glad I farmed so hard, but at the same time, the content's been nothing but a weekly chore. Even worse, it's not only content I've already done and cleared hundreds of times, it has basically zero diversity. Yeah I know people hate Railjack, but I don't. Can I get anything with a archon shard to have ANY reason to return there? I guess not. Oh maybe can we get Omnia fissures for it? Nope! Voidstorms are no longer worth my time then. Same thing with the circuit : I loved the gamemode, but I already own every single incarnon adapter, rivens and kuva are completely worthless to me since I'm already capped on riven slots (180) and I have an impossible amount of both to spare. Warframe's my most played game, by a huge margin, but sometimes, it feels like the game plays me instead, and when there's hardly anything left to do aside from stacking up some Steel Essences for the next prime release, it's hard to stay invested enough even to just open a daily dose of relics and get a forma crafting.

 

As for the difficulty thing... well, people are just leeching about with Rev's mesmer skin, just like any other mission. Maybe think of the common denominator and get it sorted out. Then we can reevaluate damage numbers.

[Lord_Drod]

44 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Y'know, come to think of it, everytime I've been very frustrated at the modifiers, it's been vampyric liminus.

Yep, and people say just move around.  Except many times in mission objectives, you aren't going to be moving around too much where they are out of your range.  And so what, these things are team collaboration?  Hardly.  They are just an immortal enemy and in groups they can't both target you, unless everyone is in close quarters.  They are the worst enemy ever released and the only part of EDA that is hard are those units, outside of bugs.

DE keeps trying to add these anti AFK measures, at the detriment of everything else, while not really accomplishing anything in the anti AFK department or even understanding that many times you are still, and in one place, by their own gameplay designs.  I don't know what's fair about whaling on a necramech or two, which are often protected by wardens and hollow veins, zapping all of your energy, then liminus units make sure to down you if the mech can't hit you, just by hugging you.  And they are insanely fast and take the quickest routes to you, on you in seconds, with ranged lifesteal.  They're basically immortal velociraptors - they seem to be highly intelligent if you watch the routes they take to get to you.

Which would all be fine, except it's not a run through mission where you can leave them behind.  You have tank units(using fodder vs them) and objectives to defend, which puts them in your ranges all the time unless you manage to lock them behind a door. 

It definitely does feel like a chore for sure.  The archon missions, netracells, EDA all takes a few hours and none of it is really good content.  I mean, I like my parkour velocity shards, and I've slotted a bunch of normal other shards as QoL measures that I don't need at all.  The rest are just collecting dust in my helminth.  And I'm not even doing circuit anymore.  Some people still have to do that and that's another 3-4 hours.  I farmed all those as well, but none of those are a match for Synoid Simulor when buffed.

Edited July 8 by Lord_Drod

[ominumi]

The game mode is: "Set your own inflated difficulty." If you can't handle those modifier, uncheck all those boxes. This is like the Steel Path debate. If you're dying in Steel Path, you're not ready for Steel Path. You have all the items in the game before even attempting the game mode. So use those loot collecting dust.

[Lord_Drod]

15 minutes ago, ominumi said:

The game mode is: "Set your own inflated difficulty." If you can't handle those modifier, uncheck all those boxes. This is like the Steel Path debate. If you're dying in Steel Path, you're not ready for Steel Path. You have all the items in the game before even attempting the game mode. So use those loot collecting dust.

You can sling some mud if you've soloed it every week otherwise you're just talking smack.  There's no penalty for going down occasionally in SP.  If you're prioritizing that your builds are lacking in other areas.  I pretty much play exclusively solo and SP so thanks for your input.

[ominumi]

46 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

You can sling some mud if you've soloed it every week otherwise you're just talking smack.  There's no penalty for going down occasionally in SP.  If you're prioritizing that your builds are lacking in other areas.  I pretty much play exclusively solo and SP so thanks for your input.

So why are you whining about not doing it for the week? It's not like the reward are exclusive only to Elite Deep Archimedea? Or better yet, just skip the game mode entirely. Focus on Netracell. It's not like one more Tauforge Shard matters to you. Or is that Melee Duplicate too enticing to pass up?

[Lord_Drod]

39 minutes ago, ominumi said:

So why are you whining about not doing it for the week? It's not like the reward are exclusive only to Elite Deep Archimedea? Or better yet, just skip the game mode entirely. Focus on Netracell. It's not like one more Tauforge Shard matters to you. Or is that Melee Duplicate too enticing to pass up?

I did it already in one run.  I can still provide my feedback because it sucked and overall how I feel about the mode.  And it was more about how those modifiers conflict.  Energy drain on enemies close to you...the other two enemies only count if killed in that same range.

And yes, I basically said in my post that's why I want to drop because the mission sucks and I don't really care or need the reward.

My point is, I don't really care for this approach to difficulty, and the restrictions are bad for gameplay since you just end up having to tank and use weapons.  It minimizes our arsenal.  Immortal enemies that you can't counter at all and suck both your energy and HP are just a bad design, especially when combined with other modifiers where they are impossible to avoid.

You don't have to agree though, I'm well aware of the group of players that feel like this is made for their builds.  I just haven't seen many threads addressing the actual gameplay instead of the RNG.  I can't stand any of the debuffs and I have read a lot of people cheering about those and wanting more instead of RNG, which I view as insanity.  When I take my favorite SP builds in with no modifiers on, I am snap downed instantly in a bullet jump over the liminus.  So its forcing you to use DR and HP, which is useless fodder everywhere else in the game.

Edited July 9 by Lord_Drod

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Going back to Vampyric liminus specifically, their presence is always annoying one way or another, because someone is going to end up dying to them, so you try to revive them, but the liminus camp the downed. And they can hit you through your operator voidmode.

Everytime I die to them, it's because I'm playing a low base health frame, or I'm trying to revive someone who got downed, or a combination of both. Entrati labs may be wide and all, but there are still tight corridors that the liminus cover entierly. Often times I've had allies who just get jumped out of nowhere because the liminus will warp. Sometimes as close as right in your face.

[Venus-Venera]

yes. eda is really miserable and has nothing to do with endgame or fake challenge.
mostly they only offer rubbish weapons and ridiculous modifiers. exact example: best warframe excal umbra (2k health + blade spec) and then no ranged ammo or "-2 energy for every enemy within 10m"???? and best ranged weapons were kuva katak or quartz... great! the weapons are so ridiculous and need all the help they can get... so either my excal doesn't do any damage or I'm missing damage anyway because ranged weapons run out of ammo anyway?

so how is it supposed to work at all?

besides, it's about leg4 account, which wasted a lot of platinum and pimped 50% of weapons. I don't even want to know how it's supposed to work for level 15-30 accounts....
the fact is that the company sells digital stuff. and they just want maximum sales. that's why there are modes like duviri, eda, etc. because there players are supposed to waste maximum resources.

and! rewards were definitely ruined. because i saw enough tau shards at the beginning. but now i hardly ever see them! and crescendo/dublicate is level 5, so i don't want to waste my time there anymore. because i can play netracells just like that and not get frustrated!

Edited July 9 by Venus-Venera

[Venus-Venera]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Lord_Drod:

You can sling some mud if you've soloed it every week otherwise you're just talking smack.  There's no penalty for going down occasionally in SP.  If you're prioritizing that your builds are lacking in other areas.  I pretty much play exclusively solo and SP so thanks for your input.

Solo is too much of a disadvantage, right? Because one mistake and the mission ends?
I had modifiers where operators (vaz dash) were not possible. And a fight against mech could end quickly.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

On 2024-07-09 at 1:12 PM, Venus-Venera said:

besides, it's about leg4 account, which wasted a lot of platinum and pimped 50%. I don't even want to know how it's supposed to work for level 15-30 accounts....

I’ve seen mr 18s tear up eda, your mr has absolutely no relevance to this, it’s about reading the modifiers, adapting your build around said modifiers, (mr has absolutely nothing to do with skill) yes having a good frame and weapons can help but eda is the pinnacle of end game content, some people enjoy it some don’t but you need to stop thinking high mr equates to skill as it doesn’t, i’ve also seen legendary 4s with 40 days in game 300k kills you can rush to high mr, they definitely don’t have pimped accounts as you put it.

[ominumi]

12 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

You don't have to agree though, I'm well aware of the group of players that feel like this is made for their builds.  I just haven't seen many threads addressing the actual gameplay instead of the RNG.  I can't stand any of the debuffs and I have read a lot of people cheering about those and wanting more instead of RNG, which I view as insanity.  When I take my favorite SP builds in with no modifiers on, I am snap downed instantly in a bullet jump over the liminus.  So its forcing you to use DR and HP, which is useless fodder everywhere else in the game.

And that's the best solution you can come up with? Moar Powa! Subsume Gloom. Slot in Rage. Hey look I live.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 1 heure, ominumi a dit :

And that's the best solution you can come up with? Moar Powa! Subsume Gloom. Slot in Rage. Hey look I live.

Gloom isn't going to do much of anything against liminus if you don't have the health to survive a single tick. And well, most frames wouldn't really build for health, for any reason, when shieldgating is a thing, but in EDA, common game logic is thrown out the window because "lEt'S hAvE aN eNeMy DeAl TrUe DaMaGe".

[ominumi]

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Gloom isn't going to do much of anything against liminus if you don't have the health to survive a single tick. And well, most frames wouldn't really build for health, for any reason, when shieldgating is a thing, but in EDA, common game logic is thrown out the window because "lEt'S hAvE aN eNeMy DeAl TrUe DaMaGe".

So how would you solve that problem personally since the True Damage is percentage base and not amount base? So having 100k Health isn't going to solve the issue.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

6 minutes ago, ominumi said:

So how would you solve that problem personally since the True Damage is percentage base and not amount base? So having 100k Health isn't going to solve the issue.

I think roaming hazards like Liminus have a place in the game. It was only a matter of time before DE had to come up with some entities that could ignore Void mode invulnerability.

I just want to know exactly what role Liminus is supposed to play, because there are plenty of other anti-AFK measures that Liminus feels redundant for that role. If it's to encourage jumping around there's already a modifier that drains HP for grounded movement. And like others have said it doesn't really do much for cooperative play.

There's a lot of different directions I'd suggest for Liminus- a soft enrage timer to punish slow squads would be the easiest imo- but part of that is due to its purpose being largely redundant and unclear besides randomly catching some players who were probably focused on dealing with Necramechs.

[Famecans]

I skipped it a few weeks and I'm not worried about it, ok ok EDA reward is really amazing bla bla bla but the difficulty is not fun because there is nothing progressive dificult, everything is just a spam of immediate debuffs and I hate this mechanic of destroying my loadouts to work on weekly missions that they never returned again, this sums up the EDA.

I have everything from Circuit Duviri and would love to complete my Incarnons, that is it, Duviri Circuit looks more fun than EDA. I'm a PC player and I believe EDA is not fun for mobile players, I think DE can put temporary modifier buffs within the mission to smooth out this difficulty.🤷‍♂️

Be careful with denialist commentators, they have 12 warframes and 12 weapons on account to nerf the crazy EDA slotmachine.

 

Edited July 9 by Famecans

[Lord_Drod]

On 2024-07-09 at 12:01 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Going back to Vampyric liminus specifically, their presence is always annoying one way or another, because someone is going to end up dying to them, so you try to revive them, but the liminus camp the downed. And they can hit you through your operator voidmode.

Everytime I die to them, it's because I'm playing a low base health frame, or I'm trying to revive someone who got downed, or a combination of both. Entrati labs may be wide and all, but there are still tight corridors that the liminus cover entierly. Often times I've had allies who just get jumped out of nowhere because the liminus will warp. Sometimes as close as right in your face.

If they are going to be immortal, they should at least be able to go down for a few seconds, and then revive themselves.  Some way to counter them, where they aren't just parked in the middle of parasitic towers, or mirror defense, or the mixer in alchemy killing you over time.  I'm obviously gonna be in the middle of the parasitic towers, so they are there as well, and I have a limited time before they down me or before I have to heal, but I won't be able to easily shield gate here, because my energy will be zapped. 

Now I basically don't fail parasitic towers unless I get that one room where spawns don't come, but its hardly like some desirable or fun gameplay, especially with all the other conflicting modifiers.  I'm mostly stripping and killing with operator or my melee, but I'm not really taking advantage of my Warframe's abilities.  I think this is more an issue with the gameplay than my builds.  Even without the liminus or drains, we're killing enemies in a small circle in survival.  The challenge is forcing you to be in close quarters and camping, which allows the debuffs and mission modifiers (liminus etc) to take hold.  I don't think there's anything really that special about the gameplay there.  It's a mini netracells mission within EDA, and those missions aren't anything special as far as creative gameplay.    

 

On 2024-07-09 at 1:15 PM, Venus-Venera said:

Solo is too much of a disadvantage, right? Because one mistake and the mission ends?
I had modifiers where operators (vaz dash) were not possible. And a fight against mech could end quickly.

I haven't really messed with Vaz much, but I know its pretty good for frame play.  I just use unairu for stripping and melt spamming.  OP can usually carry me through the mission except quickly killing mechs, but luckily you only have to do that in survival, or disruption, where they are easier.  But the liminus units in combination with other modifiers are a challenge for operator too because you need energy to strip, dash and stay in void mode.  If you go down, reviving is harder as well with hollow veins, wardens, and mechs around.  If you don't have energy to strip, or dash, you're dead, so you have to manage all that, but it still takes 3 operator deaths in a short time period to be downed vs 1 in frame.

Of course, I have had runs where I turned off operator, so it just depends on your combinations of things and whether or not you think you can do it.  I didn't really feel like turning powerless on this week because of parasitic towers, and I had some reasonable options for gear.  Also, I took helios for scans lol.  I wanted to be sure to get the rupturing fragments, so that made it a littler harder.  I just didn't want to redo the first two missions just to get scans hahaha.  And then when parasitic towers is up, I dump cold so, I lose out on some CC vs mechs.

 

On 2024-07-09 at 1:16 PM, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

I’ve seen mr 18s tear up eda, your mr has absolutely no relevance to this, it’s about reading the modifiers, adapting your build around said modifiers, (mr has absolutely nothing to do with skill) yes having a good frame and weapons can help but eda is the pinnacle of end game content, some people enjoy it some don’t but you need to stop thinking high mr equates to skill as it doesn’t, i’ve also seen legendary 4s with 40 days in game 300k kills you can rush to high mr, they definitely don’t have pimped accounts as you put it.

It's true in general.  But its also true that higher MR players in general are more experienced, more versed in the game and have more tools available, especially if they have a lot of hours and didn't just recently speedrun their way.  I'm not disagreeing here, but players in the MR14-25 range definitely seem to be less experienced overall, but I'm sure plenty of them are competent players.  There's a lot of things like maxed out operator, specters, on call, more incarnons, full helnminth options, etc that can make the mission easier and generally lower MR players have less of those options.

 

On 2024-07-09 at 4:45 PM, ominumi said:

And that's the best solution you can come up with? Moar Powa! Subsume Gloom. Slot in Rage. Hey look I live.

I was really just trying to say how powerful the liminus enemies are to pure shield gate frames.  They insta delete you.  It's silly to make an optimized build for those two enemies.  I haven't used helminth yet to complete EDA and I don't intend to unless the frame and loadout I'm using happens to have it.  I will change my build around, but only through modding, arcanes and adapters.  I have forma in 95% of the arsenal, but I have no plans to forma things to change things specifically for this mission, breaking my builds for a one and done mission.

I'm trying to address the core gameplay and how its just not really there for me, not it actually being too hard.  It's just lame because of the restrictions and combinations of things.  Normally if enemies drain you for each one that is within that range, you'd want to keep distance or wipe fast, but other mission modifiers force you to stay within that same range in order to kill.  It's kind of silly.  Then, the overall gameplay is very restrictive for what our frames are capable of doing and doesn't really put much skills or decision making to the test imo.  I mean, it's a mini netracells mission within survival, and most would agree netracells aren't really that special.

Also, I don't think gloom affects enemies with overguard and would not be ideal if your gloom range exceeds parasitic towers.  I don't think gloom is the magic solution to making it fun or even an optimal one.

20 hours ago, Famecans said:

I skipped it a few weeks and I'm not worried about it, ok ok EDA reward is really amazing bla bla bla but the difficulty is not fun because there is nothing progressive dificult, everything is just a spam of immediate debuffs and I hate this mechanic of destroying my loadouts to work on weekly missions that they never returned again, this sums up the EDA.

 

I pretty much agree with this sentiment exactly.  The rest of the game I don't need to invest heavily in damage reduction, HP, or energy kickback.  I haven't put a helminth ability on yet for EDA and I don't plan to.  I do though swap arcanes around and maybe swap mods around to prioritize defense, since that's what the mission is about.  I have to be able to tank some damage from the liminus guys or I'll just go down left and right.  They are going to be on top of me unless its exterminate. 

I also try to pick a good melee and will put an adapter and exilus in that (and maybe a forma if it needs it), but that's about it as far as my investment goes.  There's nowhere else I'm going to take a max energy kickback, max HP/DR build, but EDA.  Most of the time I don't even use energize.  And touching on the topic of perma death - that's why there's all these inexperienced revenant players in there.  If it was removed, it would open up the gameplay some because people could have more freedom with their builds. 

And then when you have that RNG factor and squad scaling, it's harder to carry other players.  So I don't really see what permadeath is doing, other than catering to people that prioritize that, which has no value elsewhere in the game.  It's harder to play a permadeath mission with players who can't stay up,

I'm pretty sure they can do better than permadeath for difficulty.  It's not really the permadeath design per say.  It's the issue of other modifiers that specifically target how you functionally survive in tandem with permadeath (which I'd never mod for because that's not optimal).  The liminus units don't allow you to pure shield gate.  So it is collaboration because you need Dante in squad?  I don't think collaboration should be tied to needing specific Warframes/abilities. 

It does take skill to shield gate.  You have to pay attention, move around, and manager energy etc.  But adding enemies that disable your ability to shield gate, and even use abilities just so you have to rely on another frame to negate it?  I think that's a cheap way to force collaboration.  It's not collaboration just because Dante or insert X frame is in squad.  That should be more tied to the mechanics of the mission.

It's still not needed for me.  I'm just thinking about it as a whole for how they designed it.  Overall the mission is just about restricting what you can do, limiting your abilities, how they function, how you survive, and forcing a narrow range of things to complete the mission, and even a narrower range of squad diversity.  I don't have the solution.  That's their job, but the approach overall, along with mission parameters (like parasitic towers), the time investment with all the other weeklies, and the lackluster rewards for engaging with the content seems like more of a hassle than it's worth.  I'll probably still do it, but I think they can do better and it isn't really hitting the spot.