MR0 on netracell... never judge abook on the cover

[Karyst]

16 hours ago, Agall said:

Most people probably wouldn't think to look at the profile of an MR0 player to see they're over 1M mastery points unless they saw them in SP or such. I'd probably look at their profile if I noticed they were MR0 to see what's going on.

If OP wants to be that person who foregoes the QoL improvements that come with MR for the sake of the meme, kudos to them for the dedication.

 

There's usually an intended way something is supposed to be done when its designed by people. Doing it different doesn't make it 'wrong', but devs have an intended 'right' way to do most things in games. I would say staying at MR0 even when you have 1.1M mastery points isn't the 'right' way to play the game, but its not a wrong way either.

I would still say spamming SO/ESO to fully level+master almost all the equipment in the game isn't the 'right' way to play the game for this very suggestion, still, doesn't mean its a 'wrong' way either.

This was your previous argument, which OP actually disproves. Your argument would be better suited by discussion Mastery Points, not Mastery Rating, since an increase in MR is solely determined by a successful completion of an MR test. That would create a direct causation between someone's ability to successfully complete MR tests and MR (ignoring failure rate).

It's okay to evolve your argument throughout a discussion, but that's not what you've previously argued nor continue to argue.

I fully expect you to not understand this concept with assertions like "MR30 will be better than MR2 in actual mission", unless you don't have a strong grip on the English language, then that would be the source of the argument. 

Ultimatums cannot accurately describe a correlation. The correct description would be "MR30 will almost always be better than MR2 in actual mission due to a strong direct correlation between mastery rank, time in mission, and developed skill."

No kudos for those who impose hardship on themselves

[Karyst]

14 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I still don't know why people LEAVE because an MR0 is in their squad.

 

I don't even CHECK anything about my teammates. I can't imagine those 12 extra steps to come to the point of leaving over someone's MR. If ANYTHING, I could see myself wanting to STAY even more than I'm already going to stay, just to see what happens.

They leave because doing mission solo is not the same as having full squad.Full squad has more enemies. Seeing low MR in high level content is a sign of a leech or at least someone who's capacity is below the minimum requirements. This is a general perception of low MRs in high level content and there are people who simply don't want to see if that low MR is able to deal with mission or not. It is completely understandable. Personally, I do not leave when there is low MR in my squad, instead, if they are dying continuously, I simply don't revive them and if I find them up in the ceiling afk, I stand next to them until they either start playing or leave. It is a balanced approach and as always, if someone asks to be carried, then that's obviously another story although his request might be denied. 

[Agall]

49 minutes ago, Karyst said:

No kudos for those who impose hardship on themselves

Wee woo wee woo fun police wee woo 

[MrInubis]

9 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You don’t need to be skilled if you do something as simple as build for higher than the content you’re doing; of course the game’s going to fall apart and not ask much of the player if they build like they’re going to level cap and then jump into something that’s not level cap, or even just offset themselves by like 40 levels.

But thats how most p[layers play, thats the fun part. To be so OP to destroy everything within miliseconds.

 

9 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You cannot judge someone’s capability to play the game and understand the mechanics when their build, designed for higher-level content and then taken into content not designed with the build in mind, is doing all the lifting, and if they’ve perpetually offset themselves, they’ve perpetually not practiced skill-based gameplay, which means the chances of them floundering when faced with a build that’s more in-line with the content is all but certain.

I dont have to because thats not what this game is about. Skill based gameplay in warframe doesnt exist. You may try to make it for yourself but than again its self imposed limitation. Its all about picking right tools for given job.

 

9 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Staying at 0 is questionable, yes, and you wouldn’t see me doing it personally, but there’s some fundamental rules that this dude is forced to follow because they can’t even utilise things like Riven mods, and thus they’re forced to work within the constraints of a limited selection of tools, and if they know how to play the game they’re a lot less likely to cark it with those tools while some L4 dies and fails when presented with the same tools in the same content because the L4’s been offsetting themselves and never had to do something like aim or move if they’ve just been rotating skills while standing around. You can assume that a high MR has some basic knowledge, but you can’t assume they’re particularly good or know the more nuanced sides of the game that would elevate their gameplay regardless of what build or loadout they use

And i can judge it. Its his challenge, not mine. I dont have any incentive to be part of it. Again, if somebody is bad at the game its on them. If they decide to use something suboptimal thats also their choice. When i see LR4 i can expect him to hold his own, i wont babysit him because he decided to play the way he plays but when i see MR1 im more inclined to do so. He is new, he doesnt have to be good enough. 

[Karyst]

29 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

But thats how most p[layers play, thats the fun part. To be so OP to destroy everything within miliseconds.

 

I dont have to because thats not what this game is about. Skill based gameplay in warframe doesnt exist. You may try to make it for yourself but than again its self imposed limitation. Its all about picking right tools for given job.

 

And i can judge it. Its his challenge, not mine. I dont have any incentive to be part of it. Again, if somebody is bad at the game its on them. If they decide to use something suboptimal thats also their choice. When i see LR4 i can expect him to hold his own, i wont babysit him because he decided to play the way he plays but when i see MR1 im more inclined to do so. He is new, he doesnt have to be good enough. 

Skill based gameplay in warframe doesnt exist. 

Hacking consoles, one of countless examples does require skill. 

 

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, Karyst said:

Skill based gameplay in warframe doesnt exist. 

Hacking consoles, one of countless examples does require skill. 

 

If this is considered skill for you than i have to question your ability to do anything in game. Also perspicacity exists, no need for hacking. See? Right tool for a job and game plays itself.

[Karyst]

5 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

If this is considered skill for you than i have to question your ability to do anything in game. Also perspicacity exists, no need for hacking. See? Right tool for a job and game plays itself.

It is not considered a skill for me. You are using a weak form of argumentation that gets you nowhere. Based on your obviously flawed logic, you don't need to learn how to drive a car, you only need a car. Is this your position?

[MrInubis]

11 minutes ago, Karyst said:

It is not considered a skill for me. You are using a weak form of argumentation that gets you nowhere. Based on your obviously flawed logic, you don't need to learn how to drive a car, you only need a car. Is this your position?

You could get a Taxi, same way to bypass the learning as perspicacity. How is it weak? You literally have a way to not learn hacking at all, even if its easy. You just need to check on wiki how. First you give hacking as example of "skill based gameplay" than you say "it is not considered a skill for me". It cant be both.

[Karyst]

1 hour ago, MrInubis said:

You could get a Taxi, same way to bypass the learning as perspicacity. How is it weak? You literally have a way to not learn hacking at all, even if its easy. You just need to check on wiki how. First you give hacking as example of "skill based gameplay" than you say "it is not considered a skill for me". It cant be both.

It is both because whether someone considers it a skill or not doesn't change the fact that to know how to hack within time limit is a skill just as knowing how to hack is a skill in and of itself. Typing relevant query into wiki to find how to bypass hacking is another skill. Unless you are a bit, you will agree with these skillful examples as well as the car driving example.

[MrInubis]

9 minutes ago, Karyst said:

It is both because whether someone considers it a skill or not doesn't change the fact that to know how to hack within time limit is a skill just as knowing how to hack is a skill in and of itself. Typing relevant query into wiki to find how to bypass hacking is another skill. Unless you are a bit, you will agree with these skillful examples as well as the car driving example.

Than your bar for "skill based gameplay" is too low for my standards.

[Karyst]

15 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

Than your bar for "skill based gameplay" is too low for my standards.

You are moving goalpost. Earlier you claimed no skill required, now you are claiming levels to skill based gameplay, thus admitting that there is skill required. Case closed.

[MrInubis]

9 minutes ago, Karyst said:

You are moving goalpost. Earlier you claimed no skill required, now you are claiming levels to skill based gameplay, thus admitting that there is skill required. Case closed.

Because for me its not a skill. It something a 5 year old would manage. The timer is generous enough for that to be just a simple qte, nothing more.

[Karyst]

1 minute ago, MrInubis said:

Because for me its not a skill. It something a 5 year old would manage. The timer is generous enough for that to be just a simple qte, nothing more.

I'm glad you keep talking about yourself, but unfortunately, this isn't about you. If you just thought a little how you were running from stalker when in your early hours of gameplay when you were 'lacking skill' to deal with threat at hand that the only way to bypass was to quit mission, which, may I say would be considered as cowardly, you could better understand the topic at hand. 

[MrInubis]

2 minutes ago, Karyst said:

I'm glad you keep talking about yourself, but unfortunately, this isn't about you. If you just thought a little how you were running from stalker when in your early hours of gameplay when you were 'lacking skill' to deal with threat at hand that the only way to bypass was to quit mission, which, may I say would be considered as cowardly, you could better understand the topic at hand. 

Killing stalker was never about skill, it was about having good enough gear. Warframe doesnt require skill, you dont even need to shoot weakpoints. Its all about having good enough tools. Ive never run from him, i either killed him or he killed me. You lose nothing either way. 

[Karyst]

8 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

Killing stalker was never about skill, it was about having good enough gear. Warframe doesnt require skill, you dont even need to shoot weakpoints. Its all about having good enough tools. Ive never run from him, i either killed him or he killed me. You lose nothing either way. 

If you have bad gear but lot of skill, you can still kill stalker. If you have good gear, but no skill, you die. These are facts. As to your repeated claim of no skill needed, it is baseless. In Warframe and outside of it. To say that you loose nothing is a display of ignorance, since when you die, you have to use portion of your accumulated experience to revive, the more I talk to you, the more I believe you actually haven't played the game.

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, Karyst said:

If you have bad gear but lot of skill, you can still kill stalker. If you have good gear, but no skill, you die. These are facts. As to your repeated claim of no skill needed, it is baseless. In Warframe and outside of it. To say that you loose nothing is a display of ignorance, since when you die, you have to use portion of your accumulated experience to revive, the more I talk to you, the more I believe you actually haven't played the game.

Man that punishment is non factor. You lose nothing of value. What do you even call "lot of skill"? Running around while shooting? Or standing next to him while pressing E? How would i die if i kill him within 0,1s? You seem to be offended that i dont consider warframe a skill based game. Did i trash your only accomplishment or what? In most literal sense, yes it is a skill to hack console but its not what poeple ask for when they talk about "skill based gameplay".

Edited September 24 by MrInubis

[4thBro]

6 hours ago, Karyst said:

No kudos for those who impose hardship on themselves

Really?

 

So if a guy walks 10 miles with 400 pound weights on his shoulders, no kudos, and you're just driving past him, honking at him like, "TRY PUTTING THE WEIGHTS DOWN, IDIOT!"

 

"AND GET A CAR!"

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, MrInubis said:

Than your bar for "skill based gameplay" is too low for my standards.

There's no bar, it's an objective definition.

In the same manner knowing how to turn on your PC is a skill.

 

What YOU'RE talking about is some urban dictionary stuff. "Yo, that was RAW SKILL, dog!"

It's just slang. And it's a subjective definition, so there's no place for it here. Ultimately, nothing in WF is "skilful" in this street definition of the term. This itself is also a subjective statement, but it makes ME now question YOUR ability to do things competently, if you think WF is skill-intensive.

 

 

Edit:

And now while catching up with the posts, I just read yours right above mine, and you're agreeing that WF isn't skill intensive. So I'm guessing this debate is just people being contrarian to the previous posts, if I really just got looped like that.

Edited September 24 by 4thBro

[Karyst]

3 hours ago, MrInubis said:

Man that punishment is non factor. You lose nothing of value. What do you even call "lot of skill"? Running around while shooting? Or standing next to him while pressing E? How would i die if i kill him within 0,1s? You seem to be offended that i dont consider warframe a skill based game. Did i trash your only accomplishment or what? In most literal sense, yes it is a skill to hack console but its not what poeple ask for when they talk about "skill based gameplay".

You just can't help yourself but keep moving the goalpost and because I keep refuting you you now make personal attack. Of course it's not skill based gameplay, it is not PVP you Einstein.

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, MrInubis said:

But thats how most p[layers play, thats the fun part. To be so OP to destroy everything within miliseconds.

And I’m saying because most players offset their builds from the content in order to destroy everything in milliseconds, they aren’t practicing anything, and they would die if they were to jump into content more suited to their build.

I’m not arguing whether it’s fun or popular, I dabble in the OP gameplay as well; accidentally when I was starting out and had no idea what I was built for and the game felt inconsistently difficult, and with intention nowadays because I know what I’m built for and what happens when I take it to different levels of content

7 hours ago, MrInubis said:

I dont have to because thats not what this game is about. Skill based gameplay in warframe doesnt exist. You may try to make it for yourself but than again its self imposed limitation. Its all about picking right tools for given job.

Dude, it’s a build-crafting game where we combine whatever components into whatever result, and not all builds are created equal but that’s okay because the game has a variety of levels of content and rewards spread across them; that’s why players offset their builds, to take advantage of the fact that the content they’re doing is made with different builds in mind and falls apart when someone brings a build meant for higher level. There are options that are more or less effective, but that’s inevitable, and we’re not forced into one option per scenario nor would I want to be

The more you explore builds and loadouts, the more places you take the results, the higher the chance of you having to step in and take over because your build has found its limit. And when you have to step in, suddenly you’re forced to engage in something you are repeatedly claiming does not exist in a frankly bonkers bit of cognitive dissonance.

You could say Inaros is the right tool for the No-Shield modifier, to which I say the point of the No-Shield modifier (my favourite) is to affect Warframes with shields, and while I enjoy the gameplay difference it makes for a Warframe with shields, I would fully expect you to die if you switch off Inaros since you've only ever used Inaros, and I would expect you to die because you are lacking in some mysterious non-existent concept.

7 hours ago, MrInubis said:

And i can judge it. Its his challenge, not mine. I dont have any incentive to be part of it. Again, if somebody is bad at the game its on them. If they decide to use something suboptimal thats also their choice. When i see LR4 i can expect him to hold his own, i wont babysit him because he decided to play the way he plays but when i see MR1 im more inclined to do so. He is new, he doesnt have to be good enough. 

I’d take the MR 0 who knows how to play over the L4 who has to hide behind their build and steamrolls the entire mission in Multiplayer-but-solo any day, since at least MR 0 and I get a chance to actually play together and they’re not about to preach to me about efficiency and the Meta, and I can trust that the MR0, if they were magically elevated to L4, would be able to bring more options and different builds to the fight without relying on something that plays the game not only for them but also for me, and I didn’t sign up to AFK in the mission.

If I was MR 1, please don’t join my game; I’m trying to practice something and am hoping I could do it alongside someone instead of trailing behind and AFKing, hence why I’m in Multiplayer

Edited September 24 by Merkranire

[MrInubis]

14 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

And I’m saying because most players offset their builds from the content in order to destroy everything in milliseconds, they aren’t practicing anything, and they would die if they were to jump into content more suited to their build.

But that again is theoretical scenerio.

17 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

You could say Inaros is the right tool for the No-Shield modifier, to which I say the point of the No-Shield modifier (my favourite) is to affect Warframes with shields, and while I enjoy the gameplay difference it makes for a Warframe with shields, I would fully expect you to die if you switch off Inaros since you've only ever used Inaros, and I would expect you to die because you are lacking in some mysterious non-existent concept.

But that is 100% on you. You decided to not use the tool designed for that situation. The game is not hard enough to force you into that choice. You are deluding yourself on how much your skill is important. Enemies have hitscan weapons, there is no dodging it, enemies die regardless of where you hit them so you dont need to aim etc. Spaming ove guard abilities or hiding behind volts shield is not very skillfull gameplay. Warframe simply doesnt allow it.

23 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’d take the MR 0 who knows how to play over the L4 who has to hide behind their build and steamrolls the entire mission in Multiplayer-but-solo any day, since at least MR 0 and I get a chance to actually play together and they’re not about to preach to me about efficiency and the Meta, and I can trust that the MR0, if they were magically elevated to L4, would be able to bring more options and different builds to the fight without relying on something that plays the game not only for them but also for me, and I didn’t sign up to AFK in the mission.

The point is that mr0 even if he knows what to do will still die and wont do any dmg. He doesnt have mods, he doesnt have arcanes, most likely no forma and no reactor on frame etc. Also the possibility to find such player is close to 0. LR4 is orders of magnitude more likely to know what to do.

 

1 hour ago, Karyst said:

You just can't help yourself but keep moving the goalpost and because I keep refuting you you now make personal attack. Of course it's not skill based gameplay, it is not PVP you Einstein.

1. Its not moving goalpost. Its just you put basic game mechanic on this pedestal and thats just stupid. If thats your best example than maybe we will add running into the mix? Holding shift and W at the same time is a skill you know. You seem offended so i called you out on that.

2. Souls games are skill based and are pve for the most part.

[Merkranire]

7 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

But that again is theoretical scenerio.

It’s theoretical in that few enough people step out of their tried and true methods even in the rare cases when DE tries to force them to (with less-than-stellar results), true. I’m pretty sure I mentioned earlier that someone has to be willing to test themselves, since the game doesn’t do much forcing, and even if it did, the complaining that would happen.

So I don’t hold it against the developers for not forcing players to test themselves, but whether or not the developers force players to do so, the real meat of the game is the variety of options, so even if players aren’t being forced, they’re decidedly missing out

8 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

But that is 100% on you. You decided to not use the tool designed for that situation. The game is not hard enough to force you into that choice. You are deluding yourself on how much your skill is important. Enemies have hitscan weapons, there is no dodging it, enemies die regardless of where you hit them so you dont need to aim etc. Spaming ove guard abilities or hiding behind volts shield is not very skillfull gameplay. Warframe simply doesnt allow it.

You mean I chose to not use Inaros in this particular scenario all the time (even if I do sometimes). That doesn’t strike me as odd; Inaros and Nidus are two Warframes in a roster of over 50, even if Inaros is so effective in No-shield modifiers that he literally nullifies it, I’ve got over 50 other frames to choose from and they’re going to be affected to different degrees. I cannot be asked to stick to the one option all the time, not in this game

Movement has evasion and positioning and leading enemies is important, when enemies don’t immediately die it becomes more important to know where and how to hit them, spamming abilities only works if you actively build to spam abilities and you might not even be playing Volt, though if you are it means you’re not building in other ways or using other options and you’ve fallen back into using the one set of options in a game about variety and you’re not learning about the game and L4 is a hollow title

18 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

The point is that mr0 even if he knows what to do will still die and wont do any dmg. He doesnt have mods, he doesnt have arcanes, most likely no forma and no reactor on frame etc. Also the possibility to find such player is close to 0. LR4 is orders of magnitude more likely to know what to do.

Who said that the dude doesn’t have mods or forma? Someone mentioned earlier that he could have just not done the MR tests.

I’ll give you that the odds of finding an MR0 who knows what they’re doing is rare, since most players will just naturally progress, but keeping an open mind about the capabilities of a lower MR is the idea since players can keep low but play better, and you’re overselling L4s; it doesn’t take much to read some guide that tells you what to use to strip away most of the game, and as we’ve established, most players who get to L4 haven’t practiced much

[MrInubis]

28 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

It’s theoretical in that few enough people step out of their tried and true methods even in the rare cases when DE tries to force them to (with less-than-stellar results), true. I’m pretty sure I mentioned earlier that someone has to be willing to test themselves, since the game doesn’t do much forcing, and even if it did, the complaining that would happen.

So I don’t hold it against the developers for not forcing players to test themselves, but whether or not the developers force players to do so, the real meat of the game is the variety of options, so even if players aren’t being forced, they’re decidedly missing out

And most of the options are designed to overpower the challenge. This is what warframe is about. You can make it harder, sure but that is self imposed handicap. You do it because you want to, not because you have to.

28 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Who said that the dude doesn’t have mods or forma? Someone mentioned earlier that he could have just not done the MR tests.

Im talking about real MR0. There is no reason to not do tests. This challenge seems kinda silly to me but its not for me to decide how he plays. I also have the right to not take part in his challenge and just leave.

 

28 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’ll give you that the odds of finding an MR0 who knows what they’re doing is rare, since most players will just naturally progress, but keeping an open mind about the capabilities of a lower MR is the idea since players can keep low but play better, and you’re overselling L4s; it doesn’t take much to read some guide that tells you what to use to strip away most of the game, and as we’ve established, most players who get to L4 haven’t practiced much

But my whole point is that warframe doesnt require much practice. So if not much is needed than LR4 dude must at least know the basics and wont need handholding. 5 forma, fully moded Kuva Zarr clears regardless of your skill you know. Warframe is a game like diablo, gear>skill. There is very little you can compensate by playing better when you dont have the stuff that you need.

Edited September 25 by MrInubis

[MrInubis]

32 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

You mean I chose to not use Inaros in this particular scenario all the time (even if I do sometimes). That doesn’t strike me as odd; Inaros and Nidus are two Warframes in a roster of over 50, even if Inaros is so effective in No-shield modifiers that he literally nullifies it, I’ve got over 50 other frames to choose from and they’re going to be affected to different degrees. I cannot be asked to stick to the one option all the time, not in this game

Movement has evasion and positioning and leading enemies is important, when enemies don’t immediately die it becomes more important to know where and how to hit them, spamming abilities only works if you actively build to spam abilities and you might not even be playing Volt, though if you are it means you’re not building in other ways or using other options and you’ve fallen back into using the one set of options in a game about variety and you’re not learning about the game and L4 is a hollow title

You dont have to, there are other options. Dante has overguard on demand, same with Frost, Kulervo also has high HP pool etc. If you wil die in 1 shot it doesnt matter how well you play. You will just die. No amount of bullet jumping and dodging will help you. With the amount of enemies game throws at you there is nothing you can do.

[Merkranire]

35 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

And most of the options are designed to overpower the challenge. This is what warframe is about. You can make it harder, sure but that is self imposed handicap. You do it because you want to, not because you have to.

See, I’m a little confused by your statement that “most of the options are designed to overpower the challenge”. A huge part of that depends on how you build and where you take it

You overpower the content when you build higher than the content, sure, but the game isn’t… designed to… not exist as a game.

DE aren’t making different enemies, ways to counter a player, and mission failstates for no reason. And if someone just perpetually offsets themselves, there’s no… challenge in the first place, because the mission level wasn’t designed for the build that the player’s bringing, it was designed for alternative builds, and if the player avoids doing the level of missions they’re actually built for, then… I mean the game has its hands tied, and of course it’s not going to do something like scale itself to the player, it already has content for the player to do using their build, and the player’s not doing it.

35 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

Im talking about real MR0. There is no reason to not do tests. This challenge seems kinda silly to me but its not for me to decide how he plays. I also have the right to take part in his challenge.

Er. What’s the difference between a real MR0 and a fake MR0?

edit: No wait, I think I get it. MR0 will still be limited in what they can use, but you’re referring to a newbie vs someone who’s played before

35 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

But my whole point is that warframe doesnt require much practice. So if not much is needed than LR4 dude must at least know the basics and wont need handholding. 5 forma, fully moded Kuva Zarr clears regardless of your skill you know. Warframe is a game like diablo, gear>skill. There is very little you can compensate by playing better when you dont have the stuff that you need.

Warframe isn’t like Diablo because while Diablo has intrinsic stat scaling as you level, Warframe has the mod system where even something as basic as extra health comes with a literal cost in mod slot and capacity, and if you pay that cost unnecessarily you can’t fit something else that you could be using for the content that doesn’t need the extra health.

And what do you think happens when someone doesn’t have the extra health? You’d think they’d have to get better at preserving what they’ve got, right?

28 minutes ago, MrInubis said:

You dont have to, there are other options. Dante has overguard on demand, same with Frost, Kulervo also has high HP pool etc. If you wil die in 1 shot it doesnt matter how well you play. You will just die. No amount of bullet jumping and dodging will help you. With the amount of enemies game throws at you there is nothing you can do.

We’re talking about no-shield modifier on the Nightmare nodes, right?

Edited September 25 by Merkranire